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Is my MySQL Gaining ?

Dear all,

Their was a huge rore about MySQL recently for something in java functions
now theirs one more

http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/News-5.0.x.html

Does this concern anyone.

What I think is PostgreSQL would have less USP's (Uniqe Selling Points
though we dont sell) now.

What do you think yes we PostgreSQL users need some introspection.

Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.

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Nov 12 '05
175 11574
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Nigel J. Andrews wrote:
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:12:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Nigel J. Andrews <na******@inves tsystems.co.uk>
To: "pg***********@ postgresql.org" <pg***********@ postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Is my MySQL Gaining ?
Just to poke fun at MySQl:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Bret Busby wrote:
...
It is alright for people in this thread, to say "But they are MySQL, and
MySQL is not as powerful as PostgreSQL, so who cares what advantages
there are in MySQL", but MySQL appears to be more mature, as it has
things like standardised, formalised, structured, training courses and
secrtifications , and, the "Teach Yourself MySQL in 21 Days" book, and
that series of books has set exercises, etc, to aid the learning,
...


I thought MySQL was supposed to be easy to install, admin and use, how come it
takes 21 days to learn it and needs formalised training courses?
--
Nigel


So, in the absence of those benefits for PostgreSQL, all you can do is
poke fun at a better offering?

Have you read and worked through the book, as either a person who has
not worked with MySQL or the Perl DBI, or the API's in the book, or as
a person with no experience with databases? If not, how then can you
say it should take more time or less time?

Have you undertaken the MySQL certifications? If not, how can you say
that they are not worthwhile?

"Easy" is in the eye of the beholder, and, is affected by the depth into
which a person goes.

If you cannot see the advantages of formalised, structured, standardised
training and certification, then I assume that you have no
qualifications, and did not graduate from secondary school? Such things
are generally implemented at secondary school and further education, and
Informix and Oracle and Microsoft have such things, from my
understanding. And, isn't passing secondary school level exams, easy? If
not, perhaps, you should try it again, and again, until you can
confidently pass.

Some people find secondary school exams easy, others do not. Depending
on where you were educated, most countries have had formalised,
standardised, structured, education and certification at secopndary
school, and, some kind of accreditation for technical college education
and for university education. May be not, where you were educated.

Instead of going out of your way to ridicule MySQL, perhaps you should
instead, try to do what I have done; have a look at what MySQL has,
that PostgreSQL has not, and, consider how it could benefit PostgreSQL.
Unless, of course, you want for PostgreSQL to not be taken seriously,
and instead, to be similarly an object of ridicule, as its community
would appear unable to achieve anything other than ridiculing others.

It is like some sections in the Linux community, who apparently feel
that Linux has nothing to offer, and should not be taken serioulsy, so
they devote their time and effort, to ridiculing Microsoft, instead of
promoting the benefits of Linux, as they clearly believe that ridiculing
Microsoft, can apparently hide their belief that Linux is not worthwhile
in itself and that Linux has nothing to offer.

If some want to similarly regard PostgreSQL, as being so worthless, that
the best way to conceal its worthlessness, is to ridicule MySQL, then
that is unfortunate, as I believe that PostgreSQL is supposed to be
better than MySQL, it just happens to lack some of the maturity of
MySQL, as indicated in my paragraph, quoted above.

Oh, and, on that basis, remember the Beta video format? It was supposed
to be far better than VHS. But, it disappeared because VHS had greater
marketing. And, OS/2 was supposed to be far superior to MS Windows,
but, similarly, the same fate befell that, and, similarly, with IBM
PC-DOS and MS-DOS.

As it was mentioned that PostgreSQL would be around, long after MySQL
was dead and gone, perhaps not - perhaps, it may be the other way
around.

It all depends on whether the PostgreSQL community is prepared to learn
from others - remember that quote? "Those who do not learn from history,
are doomed to reapeat it". It would be unfortunate, for PostgreSQL to
disappear, like the Beta video format, due to the PostgreSQL community
not being willing to learn from others.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
...............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
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Nov 12 '05 #151
Have you undertaken the MySQL certifications? If not, how can you say
that they are not worthwhile?

I think what a lot of people forget is that certifications are meant
to be a baseline. They are meant to allow an employer to say,
"Hey this person at least has some idea of what they are doing."

Also, specifically pertaining to many people on this list, certification
is pointless. For them. There is a point in your professional life
where a certification becomes "So What" and your resume should be
enough.

Frankly, if someone like Tom Lane came to me and said, "Hey I have 20
years experience with databases and I am a PostgreSQL core developer."
My response would not be, "Do you have any certs?" and I would
question the sanity, validity, and intelligence of any person who did.
He has the experience and resume to back up his worth.

If you cannot see the advantages of formalised, structured, standardised
training and certification, then I assume that you have no
qualifications, and did not graduate from secondary school?
Well this was just plain snobbish. There are benefits to secondary
school but they do not pertain to each individual and it has been
proven time and time again that secondary school (college) can actually
hamper the minds, creativity and capabilities for a person to grown.
Bill Gates, and Michael Dell come to mind.

The above of course is not par for the course for everyone. Some people
need to be taught, some can teach themselves, some can only teach
themselves within one arena of talent, some are complete morons... it
depends on the individual.

Such things
are generally implemented at secondary school and further education, and
Informix and Oracle and Microsoft have such things, from my
understanding.
As someone who has passed the MS exams, you don't need them, they are
joke. The A+ was more difficult than the memorize the side bars and
select letter "C" testing that Microsoft offers.

I can not speak to Informix or Oracle however.

Instead of going out of your way to ridicule MySQL, perhaps you should
instead, try to do what I have done; have a look at what MySQL has,
that PostgreSQL has not, and, consider how it could benefit PostgreSQL.
Unless, of course, you want for PostgreSQL to not be taken seriously,
and instead, to be similarly an object of ridicule, as its community
would appear unable to achieve anything other than ridiculing others.

I agree with you 100% here. MySQL has a lot of stuff over PostgreSQL,
much of it is "perceived" benefit over actual benefit but perception
is what it is all about in todays world.

Oh, and, on that basis, remember the Beta video format? It was supposed
to be far better than VHS. But, it disappeared because VHS had greater
marketing. And, OS/2 was supposed to be far superior to MS Windows,
but, similarly, the same fate befell that, and, similarly, with IBM
PC-DOS and MS-DOS.


Agreed.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

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Nov 12 '05 #152
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Have you undertaken the MySQL certifications? If not, how can you say
that they are not worthwhile?

I think what a lot of people forget is that certifications are meant
to be a baseline. They are meant to allow an employer to say,
"Hey this person at least has some idea of what they are doing."

Also, specifically pertaining to many people on this list, certification
is pointless. For them. There is a point in your professional life
where a certification becomes "So What" and your resume should be
enough.

Frankly, if someone like Tom Lane came to me and said, "Hey I have 20
years experience with databases and I am a PostgreSQL core developer."
My response would not be, "Do you have any certs?" and I would
question the sanity, validity, and intelligence of any person who did.
He has the experience and resume to back up his worth.


I think that we realise that someone like Tom Lane, or Bruce Momjian,
would not need to worry about having to have things like certification,
but, it must be remembered that not everyone is a recognised PostgreSQL
guru, and, people are at different levels, regarding something like
PostgreSQL.

And, certification is subjective. I had not heard of some things, like
Bernoulli's theorem, until I attended university, and my wife's younger
brother has covered that with one of his primary school classes that he
teaches. And, whereas in 1978, to become a laboratory assistant in New
Zealand, required a Bachelor of Science, and, to become a laboratory
assistant in Western Australia, required having passed a universities
entrance exam at secondary school, or a technical college certificate,
which was at about the same level as the universities entrance
examination. That was due to different countries having different levels
of difficulty in obtaining employment, and thus, employers being able to
be selective to different degrees (no pun intended), due to differing
employment market pressures.

But, in both countries, having passed a universities entrance
examination, meant the same, or similar, level of achievement had
been completed, and, having completed a university degree, had the
similar meaning.

And, as you said in your first paragraph above, certifications are meant
to be a baseline, and they give an employer good reason to believe that
a person has some idea of what the person is doing, at the level of the
certification.

I know that people who have been in computing, from before computing
degrees were dreamed of, probably do not need formal qualifications.

However, as with software engineering, and computer science, degree
courses and certifications, apart from completion being able to show
that a person has achieved a particular standard, there is also the
important aspect, that a person has been trained to do something
(relatively) properly, in most cases.

So, whilst people on the list, in discussing prospective content of
trating courses and/or tutorials, have said that issues like
normalisation, are too generic, and have no place in PostgreSQL
training, if the formal, standardised, structured, training and
certification that I have suggested, is implemented, and, it includes
generic database stuff, like normalisation, then a prospective employer
or hirer of a contractor, who may know something about databases, may be
given the knowledge that a prospective employee, is unlikely to use
postgreSQL to generate what is not much more than a flat-file database,
when a database should be normalised.

It goes to the issue of having an idea of the value of formal training
and certification. In that, I mean a prospective employer, having an
idea of the value.

A good example of the need for formalised, standardised, structured,
training and certification, is a man that I met several year sgo, who
was the head of the maths and computing teaching department at one of
the universities, here in Western Australia. He told me that he didn't
believe in documenting programs. His area was computing, and he taught
computer programming. Given the complexity of some computer programming
languages, and the possible obscurity of some code, I hope that I never
encounter the code of such a programmer. My wife has encountered
undocumented databases, that she has had to modify, or, to migrate to
another DBMS. Much time can be wasted through bad practices.

To quote from a book that we have just acquired; "Troubleshootin g SQL",
by Forrest Houlette, 2001, (the book, whilst being SQL-Server-oriented,
including material relating to SQL in general), in the chapter "Using
Best Practices";
"Recently I had to perform maintenance on a program that was written by
a guy who believed that you should have to struggle with code to
understand it. He used one-character variable names, and as a
consequence the cost of having a consultant come in to do maintenance on
this program was considerably higher than it should have been. Let's do
the math to illustrate the point. Average billable hours went to this
company at $55 per hour. It took eight hours just to figure out what
this piece of code did. That time cost the company $440. Keep in mind,
all that happened during that time was that the consultant read the code
and traced its thread of execution. It took two hours to make and test
the change, time billable for a total of $110. If we assume that
self-documenting code could have reduced the research time by half, the
cost for making a minor change to the program drops by $220. The point
is that self-documenting code reduces the cost of owning a software
system considerably. Variable names figure into that cost reduction as a
significant factor."

So, good practices save time and money. Formalised, structured,
standardised, training and certification, can increase the use of good
practices, and, the confidence that good practices will be used, and,
therefore, the confidence of efficiency.

It is like the use of the CMMI assessment for software developers, be
they small businesses, or corporations.

I attended a .NET Community Of Practice seminar, a few months ago, and
encountered a concept of which I was not previously aware, and I am not
sure of the name for it; where a form allows SQL code instead of values,
to be input into an input field in a form, allowing hacking into the
database. The seminar warned against allowing such security breaches,
and, mentioned various options and best ways of performing tasks. And,
no, I am not of the .NET world, but, I learnt from the seminar. The
inclusion of such issues, in formalised training, would also increase
public confidence in software, which I understand to be one of the
issues in software engineering.

Formalised, standardised, structured, training and certification, can
increase a prospective employer's confidence, both that an employee is
more than just a hack-programmer, and, that the employee, apart from
having a reasonable idea of what the employee is doing, does what the
employee is supposed to do, properly, and most efficiently, producing
the most reliable and efficient result.

If you cannot see the advantages of formalised, structured, standardised
training and certification, then I assume that you have no
qualifications, and did not graduate from secondary school?


Well this was just plain snobbish. There are benefits to secondary
school but they do not pertain to each individual and it has been
proven time and time again that secondary school (college) can actually
hamper the minds, creativity and capabilities for a person to grown.
Bill Gates, and Michael Dell come to mind.

The above of course is not par for the course for everyone. Some people
need to be taught, some can teach themselves, some can only teach
themselves within one arena of talent, some are complete morons... it
depends on the individual.


It, surely, is all about the basic principle of public education;
ensuring that people are educated to the same level(s). That is the
great advantage - being educated to prescribed levels, nd, in knowing
that a person has been educated to a particular leve, and therefore,
attributing a particular level of skills to the person.
Such things
are generally implemented at secondary school and further education, and
Informix and Oracle and Microsoft have such things, from my
understanding.


As someone who has passed the MS exams, you don't need them, they are
joke. The A+ was more difficult than the memorize the side bars and
select letter "C" testing that Microsoft offers.


Did you complete the MCAD and MCSD courses?

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
...............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
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Nov 12 '05 #153
This is exactly why I got my Cisco CCNA qualification, not because I
wanted to work with Cisco Routing equipment (because quite frankly I
can't think of a duller subject) but because I could show potential
employers/clients a well rounded skill set. This means I can appreciate
implications broader than just my specialisation, and see the bigger
picture, and also if pushed and there was no network engineer around I
can get a router up and working again in an emergency situation (doesn't
mean it'd be secure, just that it would route packets in the right
general direction)

Many people quoted the CCIE as the ultimate in qualifications. Cisco
touted the CCIE course/exam as the best on the market, their claim was
that there was no way to gain the qualification without real world
experience and without knowing the subject in reality (i.e. you can't
learn this just by absorbing a book) and had a big practicle exam you
had to travel to Cisco for to complete the final stages, where they
would lock you in a room with a bunch of kit and tell you to design and
trouble shoot various networks. I don't know many CCIEs but at least 3
that I know all got their CCIE without ever laying hands on much more
than a 4ft high stack of Sybex exam guides.

I'm with Joshua on this one.

I have been a consultant with Microsoft Operating Systems for sometime
now, but never sat any of their exams, because my experience with
Network Operating Systems speaks for itself. I've never had my
abilities questioned by an employer (only by employment agency staff
that don't know their subject and insist that no one can be put forward
for this contract without at least an MCP????) not even by Microsoft
when I did work for them.

0.02 cents

T.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I think what a lot of people forget is that certifications are meant
to be a baseline. They are meant to allow an employer to say,
"Hey this person at least has some idea of what they are doing."


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Nov 12 '05 #154
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, Tony wrote:

I have been a consultant with Microsoft Operating Systems for sometime
now, but never sat any of their exams, because my experience with
Network Operating Systems speaks for itself. I've never had my
abilities questioned by an employer (only by employment agency staff
that don't know their subject and insist that no one can be put forward
for this contract without at least an MCP????) not even by Microsoft
when I did work for them.


Perhaps I should have clarified - in referring to Microsoft
certifications, I was referring to the MCAD and MCSD certifications.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
...............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
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Nov 12 '05 #155
Tom Lane <tg*@sss.pgh.pa .us> Wrote:
BTW, I'd not be in favor of separating out the Tutorial into a separate
document again, precisely because we would lose the ability for it to
easily cross-reference the main docs.


I understand your point. I was just thinking that the other documents are
aimed at experienced users, and that the Tutorial as of now, does not seem
to fill the need for a beginner. I understand that there is a lot of
resistance here to including other generally useful information such as
database design basics, as it would require more maintenance than simply
putting PostgreSQL-only material in the docs.

However, my question is this-- how much more work (long-term) would it take
to maintain a set of links to resources we have no control over compared to
including information such as this in the Tutorial? If the material is
truly generic, then once we have a good set of resources then maintenance
will not be a large issue, and cross-linking will be far easier because we
have control over the documentation. It may be more work at first, but in
the end, I think it will solve more problems than it creates.

I guess the current format is good-- 4 books more or less integrated into
one. BTW, I took another look at the tutorial, and it is far better than
it was in previous versions. I still think it needs some expansion (and
would be happy to help). Or perhaps we should add another document-- The
Beginner's Guide, or would this be better handled by Techdocs?

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
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Nov 12 '05 #156
On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 11:42, Paul Ganainm wrote:

rw****@averillp ark.net says...
Check http://firebird.sourceforge.net/

note that Firebird (the Interbase spinoff) used the name before
Firebird (the Mozilla spinoff) did.

The Mozilla people have undertaken to change this, but are dragging
their feet, much to the disgust of the real Firebirders.


Do you have a link that verifies this? I hadn't heard this at all and
find it somewhat surprising given their disregard for the initial
complaints...

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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Nov 12 '05 #157
On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 05:40, Bret Busby wrote:
I would feel more confident about having a personal database "on the
Internet"; a backend to my web site, if I knew that the database wasn't
thrown into the same storage area as everyone of the ISP's other account
holders, who also have the same DBMS database backends to their web
sites. <snip> I am not sure whether it can all be done with symbolic links, to place
PostgreSQL databases where a (OS, not DBMS) user or developer or DBA
wants them to be stored, but I suggest that provision should exist for a
person to determine where the person's (as owner of the database)
database file(s) exist, for security, backing up, etc.


Find an ISP that will allow you to install a local copy of postgresql
for only your user account, then you will have full control from top to
bottom.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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Nov 12 '05 #158
If security is that big of a concern for you then you probably need to
consider not just the db, but any other source of access to the server
hackers might have, including but not limited to, cgi scripts etc in other
user directories that could be exploitable.

And so when security is that important, you likely want your own server,
whether local or co-located, only then can you control all the aspects of
the server that could lead to a breach.

Terry Fielder
Manager Software Development and Deployment
Great Gulf Homes / Ashton Woods Homes
te***@greatgulf homes.com
Fax: (416) 441-9085

-----Original Message-----
From: pg************* ****@postgresql .org
[mailto:pg****** ***********@pos tgresql.org]On Behalf Of Robert Treat
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:16 PM
To: Bret Busby
Cc: pg***********@p ostgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Is my MySQL Gaining ?
On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 05:40, Bret Busby wrote:
I would feel more confident about having a personal

database "on the
Internet"; a backend to my web site, if I knew that the

database wasn't
thrown into the same storage area as everyone of the ISP's

other account
holders, who also have the same DBMS database backends to their web
sites.

<snip>
I am not sure whether it can all be done with symbolic

links, to place
PostgreSQL databases where a (OS, not DBMS) user or

developer or DBA
wants them to be stored, but I suggest that provision

should exist for a
person to determine where the person's (as owner of the database)
database file(s) exist, for security, backing up, etc.


Find an ISP that will allow you to install a local copy of postgresql
for only your user account, then you will have full control
from top to
bottom.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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broadcast)---------------------------
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scan if your
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Nov 12 '05 #159
Hi Casey,

Casey Allen Shobe wrote:
Alex Satrapa (Sunday 28 December 2003 22:16)
Just convince your distribution's

My what? I don't use no stinkin' distribution :).

postgresql package maintainer

That would be postgresql.org, I know not of binary packages.

"suggests/recommends" portion of the package management metadata.

Tar does not provide such metadata, and a suggestion is hardly the same as an
inclusion.

I'm just saying that it would be nice to include both CLI and GUI interfaces,
not to mention things like ODBC, as an alternative to the "minimalist "
download.


No. NO! Definitively not. I really dont want GUI interfaces on a
database server. We are not on Windows here where all servers
better reside on the desktop...

But you could provide a wget script for the configure file
to fetch all sources one would need to install to his
postgres server if desireable.

Regards
Tino
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Nov 12 '05 #160

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