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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10116
'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


That's just what I was thinking. It might be an easy way aournd the
whole problem,for awhile, to set up the replication to be as version
independent as possible.
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Nov 11 '05 #71
'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


That's just what I was thinking. It might be an easy way aournd the
whole problem,for awhile, to set up the replication to be as version
independent as possible.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

Nov 11 '05 #72
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 11:21, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of 15K
fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves, RAID
overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?


Ah, see, the post that I was responding to dealt with 300GB of data,
which, a disk array for, is relatively cheap ... :)

But even with 1TB of data, do you note have a redundant system? If you
can't afford 3 hours to dump/reload, can you actually afford any better
the cost of the server itself going poof?


We've survived all h/w issues so far w/ minimal downtime, running
in degraded mode (i.e., having to yank out a CPU or RAM board) until
HP could come out and install a new one. We also have dual-redun-
dant disk and storage controllers, even though it's been a good
long time since I've seen one of them die.

And I strongly dispute the notion that it would only take 3 hours
to dump/restore a TB of data. This seems to point to a downside
of MVCC: this inability to to "page-level" database backups, which
allow for "rapid" restores, since all of the index structures are
part of the backup, and don't have to be created, in serial, as part
of the pg_restore.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

"...always eager to extend a friendly claw"
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Nov 11 '05 #73
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 11:21, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of 15K
fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves, RAID
overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?


Ah, see, the post that I was responding to dealt with 300GB of data,
which, a disk array for, is relatively cheap ... :)

But even with 1TB of data, do you note have a redundant system? If you
can't afford 3 hours to dump/reload, can you actually afford any better
the cost of the server itself going poof?


We've survived all h/w issues so far w/ minimal downtime, running
in degraded mode (i.e., having to yank out a CPU or RAM board) until
HP could come out and install a new one. We also have dual-redun-
dant disk and storage controllers, even though it's been a good
long time since I've seen one of them die.

And I strongly dispute the notion that it would only take 3 hours
to dump/restore a TB of data. This seems to point to a downside
of MVCC: this inability to to "page-level" database backups, which
allow for "rapid" restores, since all of the index structures are
part of the backup, and don't have to be created, in serial, as part
of the pg_restore.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

"...always eager to extend a friendly claw"
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

Nov 11 '05 #74
Ron Johnson <ro***********@ cox.net> writes:
And I strongly dispute the notion that it would only take 3 hours
to dump/restore a TB of data. This seems to point to a downside
of MVCC: this inability to to "page-level" database backups, which
allow for "rapid" restores, since all of the index structures are
part of the backup, and don't have to be created, in serial, as part
of the pg_restore.


If you have a filesystem capable of atomic "snapshots" (Veritas offers
this I think), you *should* be able to do this fairly safely--take a
snapshot of the filesystem and back up the snapshot. On a restore of
the snapshot, transactions in progress when the snapshot happened will
be rolled back, but everything that committed before then will be there
(same thing PG does when it recovers from a crash). Of course, if you
have your database cluster split across multiple filesystems, this
might not be doable.

Note: I haven't done this, but it should work and I've seen it talked
about before. I think Oracle does this at the storage manager level
when you put a database in backup mode; doing the same in PG would
probably be a lot of work.

This doesn't help with the upgrade issue, of course...

-Doug

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Nov 11 '05 #75
Ron Johnson <ro***********@ cox.net> writes:
And I strongly dispute the notion that it would only take 3 hours
to dump/restore a TB of data. This seems to point to a downside
of MVCC: this inability to to "page-level" database backups, which
allow for "rapid" restores, since all of the index structures are
part of the backup, and don't have to be created, in serial, as part
of the pg_restore.


If you have a filesystem capable of atomic "snapshots" (Veritas offers
this I think), you *should* be able to do this fairly safely--take a
snapshot of the filesystem and back up the snapshot. On a restore of
the snapshot, transactions in progress when the snapshot happened will
be rolled back, but everything that committed before then will be there
(same thing PG does when it recovers from a crash). Of course, if you
have your database cluster split across multiple filesystems, this
might not be doable.

Note: I haven't done this, but it should work and I've seen it talked
about before. I think Oracle does this at the storage manager level
when you put a database in backup mode; doing the same in PG would
probably be a lot of work.

This doesn't help with the upgrade issue, of course...

-Doug

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
(send "unregister YourEmailAddres sHere" to ma*******@postg resql.org)

Nov 11 '05 #76
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just being
able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the differences
between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although appropriate) one
being that integers can no longer be ''. If we provide the ability to do a wholesale upgrade many things would
just break. Heck even the connection protocol is different for 7.4.


Strawmen. If we provide a good upgrade capability, we would just simply
have to think about upgrades before changing features like that. The
upgrade code could be cognizant of these sorts of things; and shoud be,
in fact.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 11 '05 #77
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just being
able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the differences
between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although appropriate) one
being that integers can no longer be ''. If we provide the ability to do a wholesale upgrade many things would
just break. Heck even the connection protocol is different for 7.4.


Strawmen. If we provide a good upgrade capability, we would just simply
have to think about upgrades before changing features like that. The
upgrade code could be cognizant of these sorts of things; and shoud be,
in fact.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 11 '05 #78
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


Can eRserver replicate a 7.3.x to a 7.2.x? Or 7.4.x to 7.3.x?

Having the duplicate server is going to be a biggie; in my own case,
where I am contemplating a very large dataset (>100TB potentially), I am
being very thoughtful as to the storage mechanism, OS, etc. eRserver
figures in to my plan, incidentally. I am still in the early design
phase of this system; PostgreSQL may just be storing the index and the
metadata, and not the actual image data. In which case we're only
talking a few million records. The image data will be huge. While I
_will_ have a redundant server (in a separate building), I'm not 100%
sure I'm going to do it at the application level. As I have vast
amounts and numbers of 50/125 mm fiber run between buildings, as well as
a good amount of singlemode, I may be running a large SAN with Fibre
Channel (depending upon how cheaply the switches and HBA's can be
acquired). I already have in place a fully meshed OC-12 network, which
I am expanding, to meet the regular data needs. But ATM on OC-12 is
suboptimal for SAN use; really need fibre channel.

Now before anyone gets the idea that 'hey, you got money; buy another
server!' you might want to know that PARI is a non-profit; those OC-12
switches are either donated or surplus 3Com CoreBuilder 7000's
(available ridiculously cheaply on eBay), and the fiber was already here
when we acquired the site. We are not rolling in dough, so to speak.
So there will be no surplus drives in the array, or surplus CPU's
either, to run a spare 'migration' server. And I really don't want to
think about dump/restore of 100TB (if PostgreSQL actually stores the
image files, which it might).

As most everyone here knows, I am a big proponent of in-place upgrades,
and have been so for a very long time. Read the archives; I've said my
piece, and am not going to rehash at this time.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 11 '05 #79
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


Can eRserver replicate a 7.3.x to a 7.2.x? Or 7.4.x to 7.3.x?

Having the duplicate server is going to be a biggie; in my own case,
where I am contemplating a very large dataset (>100TB potentially), I am
being very thoughtful as to the storage mechanism, OS, etc. eRserver
figures in to my plan, incidentally. I am still in the early design
phase of this system; PostgreSQL may just be storing the index and the
metadata, and not the actual image data. In which case we're only
talking a few million records. The image data will be huge. While I
_will_ have a redundant server (in a separate building), I'm not 100%
sure I'm going to do it at the application level. As I have vast
amounts and numbers of 50/125 mm fiber run between buildings, as well as
a good amount of singlemode, I may be running a large SAN with Fibre
Channel (depending upon how cheaply the switches and HBA's can be
acquired). I already have in place a fully meshed OC-12 network, which
I am expanding, to meet the regular data needs. But ATM on OC-12 is
suboptimal for SAN use; really need fibre channel.

Now before anyone gets the idea that 'hey, you got money; buy another
server!' you might want to know that PARI is a non-profit; those OC-12
switches are either donated or surplus 3Com CoreBuilder 7000's
(available ridiculously cheaply on eBay), and the fiber was already here
when we acquired the site. We are not rolling in dough, so to speak.
So there will be no surplus drives in the array, or surplus CPU's
either, to run a spare 'migration' server. And I really don't want to
think about dump/restore of 100TB (if PostgreSQL actually stores the
image files, which it might).

As most everyone here knows, I am a big proponent of in-place upgrades,
and have been so for a very long time. Read the archives; I've said my
piece, and am not going to rehash at this time.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 11 '05 #80

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