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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10121
Hi
Yes, it's been discussed to death, and it isn't easy. See the archives
That's what I thought.
"interestin g" category. It is in the category of things that will only
happen if people pony up money to pay someone to do uninteresting work.
And for all the ranting, I've not seen any ponying.


Just for the record now that there's an argument that big companies need 24x7
- could you or someone else with knowledge of what's involved give a
guesstimate of how many ponies we're talking. Is it one man month, one man
year, more, or what?

Just in case there is a company with enough interest in this matter.

Next question would of course be if anyone would care to do it even though
they're paid, but one hypothetical question at the time :-)

--
Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816 2582
Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816 2501
Howitzvej 75 Åben 12.00-18.00 Email: ka*@kakidata.dk
2000 Frederiksberg Lørdag 12.00-16.00 Web: www.suse.dk

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Nov 11 '05 #61
Hi
Yes, it's been discussed to death, and it isn't easy. See the archives
That's what I thought.
"interestin g" category. It is in the category of things that will only
happen if people pony up money to pay someone to do uninteresting work.
And for all the ranting, I've not seen any ponying.


Just for the record now that there's an argument that big companies need 24x7
- could you or someone else with knowledge of what's involved give a
guesstimate of how many ponies we're talking. Is it one man month, one man
year, more, or what?

Just in case there is a company with enough interest in this matter.

Next question would of course be if anyone would care to do it even though
they're paid, but one hypothetical question at the time :-)

--
Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816 2582
Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816 2501
Howitzvej 75 Åben 12.00-18.00 Email: ka*@kakidata.dk
2000 Frederiksberg Lørdag 12.00-16.00 Web: www.suse.dk

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

Nov 11 '05 #62

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 17:48, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Hello,

The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just
being able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the
differences between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although
appropriate) one being that integers can no longer be ''.


But that's just not going to cut it if PostgreSQL wants to be
a serious "player" in the enterprise space, where 24x7 systems
are common, and you just don't *get* 12/18/24/whatever hours to
dump/restore a 200GB database.

For example, there are some rather large companies whose fac-
tories are run 24x365 on rather old versions of VAX/VMS and
Rdb/VMS, because the DBAs can't even get the 3 hours to do
in-place upgrades to Rdb, much less the time the SysAdmin needs
to upgrade VAX/VMS to VAX/OpenVMS.

In our case, we have systems that have multiple 300+GB databases
(working in concert as one big system), and dumping all of them,
then restoring (which includes creating indexes on tables with
row-counts in the low 9 digits, and one which has gone as high
as 2+ billion records) is just totally out of the question.


'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?

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Nov 11 '05 #63

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 17:48, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Hello,

The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just
being able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the
differences between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although
appropriate) one being that integers can no longer be ''.


But that's just not going to cut it if PostgreSQL wants to be
a serious "player" in the enterprise space, where 24x7 systems
are common, and you just don't *get* 12/18/24/whatever hours to
dump/restore a 200GB database.

For example, there are some rather large companies whose fac-
tories are run 24x365 on rather old versions of VAX/VMS and
Rdb/VMS, because the DBAs can't even get the 3 hours to do
in-place upgrades to Rdb, much less the time the SysAdmin needs
to upgrade VAX/VMS to VAX/OpenVMS.

In our case, we have systems that have multiple 300+GB databases
(working in concert as one big system), and dumping all of them,
then restoring (which includes creating indexes on tables with
row-counts in the low 9 digits, and one which has gone as high
as 2+ billion records) is just totally out of the question.


'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to ma*******@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

Nov 11 '05 #64
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 10:10, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 17:48, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Hello,

The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just
being able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the
differences between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although
appropriate) one being that integers can no longer be ''.


But that's just not going to cut it if PostgreSQL wants to be
a serious "player" in the enterprise space, where 24x7 systems
are common, and you just don't *get* 12/18/24/whatever hours to
dump/restore a 200GB database.

For example, there are some rather large companies whose fac-
tories are run 24x365 on rather old versions of VAX/VMS and
Rdb/VMS, because the DBAs can't even get the 3 hours to do
in-place upgrades to Rdb, much less the time the SysAdmin needs
to upgrade VAX/VMS to VAX/OpenVMS.

In our case, we have systems that have multiple 300+GB databases
(working in concert as one big system), and dumping all of them,
then restoring (which includes creating indexes on tables with
row-counts in the low 9 digits, and one which has gone as high
as 2+ billion records) is just totally out of the question.


'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of
15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves,
RAID overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?

Not a chance.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

Thanks to the good people in Microsoft, a great deal of the data
that flows is dependent on one company. That is not a healthy
ecosystem. The issue is that creativity gets filtered through
the business plan of one company.
Mitchell Baker, "Chief Lizard Wrangler" at Mozilla
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Nov 11 '05 #65
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 10:10, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 17:48, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Hello,

The initdb is not always a bad thing. In reality the idea of just
being able to "upgrade" is not a good thing. Just think about the
differences between 7.2.3 and 7.3.x... The most annoying (although
appropriate) one being that integers can no longer be ''.


But that's just not going to cut it if PostgreSQL wants to be
a serious "player" in the enterprise space, where 24x7 systems
are common, and you just don't *get* 12/18/24/whatever hours to
dump/restore a 200GB database.

For example, there are some rather large companies whose fac-
tories are run 24x365 on rather old versions of VAX/VMS and
Rdb/VMS, because the DBAs can't even get the 3 hours to do
in-place upgrades to Rdb, much less the time the SysAdmin needs
to upgrade VAX/VMS to VAX/OpenVMS.

In our case, we have systems that have multiple 300+GB databases
(working in concert as one big system), and dumping all of them,
then restoring (which includes creating indexes on tables with
row-counts in the low 9 digits, and one which has gone as high
as 2+ billion records) is just totally out of the question.


'k, but is it out of the question to pick up a duplicate server, and use
something like eRServer to replicate the databases between the two
systems, with the new system having the upgraded database version running
on it, and then cutting over once its all in sync?


So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of
15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves,
RAID overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?

Not a chance.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

Thanks to the good people in Microsoft, a great deal of the data
that flows is dependent on one company. That is not a healthy
ecosystem. The issue is that creativity gets filtered through
the business plan of one company.
Mitchell Baker, "Chief Lizard Wrangler" at Mozilla
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Nov 11 '05 #66


On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of 15K
fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves, RAID
overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?


Ah, see, the post that I was responding to dealt with 300GB of data,
which, a disk array for, is relatively cheap ... :)

But even with 1TB of data, do you note have a redundant system? If you
can't afford 3 hours to dump/reload, can you actually afford any better
the cost of the server itself going poof?
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Nov 11 '05 #67


On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
So instead of 1TB of 15K fiber channel disks (and the requisite
controllers, shelves, RAID overhead, etc), we'd need *two* TB of 15K
fiber channel disks (and the requisite controllers, shelves, RAID
overhead, etc) just for the 1 time per year when we'd upgrade
PostgreSQL?


Ah, see, the post that I was responding to dealt with 300GB of data,
which, a disk array for, is relatively cheap ... :)

But even with 1TB of data, do you note have a redundant system? If you
can't afford 3 hours to dump/reload, can you actually afford any better
the cost of the server itself going poof?
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Nov 11 '05 #68
Kaare Rasmussen <ka*@kakidata.d k> writes:
"interestin g" category. It is in the category of things that will only
happen if people pony up money to pay someone to do uninteresting work.
And for all the ranting, I've not seen any ponying.
Just for the record now that there's an argument that big companies need 24x7
- could you or someone else with knowledge of what's involved give a
guesstimate of how many ponies we're talking. Is it one man month, one man
year, more, or what?


Well, the first thing that needs to happen is to redesign and
reimplement pg_upgrade so that it works with current releases and is
trustworthy for enterprise installations (the original script version
depended far too much on being run by someone who knew what they were
doing, I thought). I guess that might take, say, six months for one
well-qualified hacker. But it would be an open-ended commitment,
because pg_upgrade only really solves the problem of installing new
system catalogs. Any time we do something that affects the contents or
placement of user table and index files, someone would have to figure
out and implement a migration strategy.

Some examples of things we have done recently that could not be handled
without much more work: modifying heap tuple headers to conserve
storage, changing the on-disk representation of array values, fixing
hash indexes. Examples of probable future changes that will take work:
adding tablespaces, adding point-in-time recovery, fixing the interval
datatype, generalizing locale support so you can have more than one
locale per installation.

It could be that once pg_upgrade exists in a production-ready form,
PG developers will voluntarily do that extra work themselves. But
I doubt it (and if it did happen that way, it would mean a significant
slowdown in the rate of development). I think someone will have to
commit to doing the extra work, rather than just telling other people
what they ought to do. It could be a permanent full-time task ...
at least until we stop finding reasons we need to change the on-disk
data representation, which may or may not ever happen.

regards, tom lane

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message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

Nov 11 '05 #69
Kaare Rasmussen <ka*@kakidata.d k> writes:
"interestin g" category. It is in the category of things that will only
happen if people pony up money to pay someone to do uninteresting work.
And for all the ranting, I've not seen any ponying.
Just for the record now that there's an argument that big companies need 24x7
- could you or someone else with knowledge of what's involved give a
guesstimate of how many ponies we're talking. Is it one man month, one man
year, more, or what?


Well, the first thing that needs to happen is to redesign and
reimplement pg_upgrade so that it works with current releases and is
trustworthy for enterprise installations (the original script version
depended far too much on being run by someone who knew what they were
doing, I thought). I guess that might take, say, six months for one
well-qualified hacker. But it would be an open-ended commitment,
because pg_upgrade only really solves the problem of installing new
system catalogs. Any time we do something that affects the contents or
placement of user table and index files, someone would have to figure
out and implement a migration strategy.

Some examples of things we have done recently that could not be handled
without much more work: modifying heap tuple headers to conserve
storage, changing the on-disk representation of array values, fixing
hash indexes. Examples of probable future changes that will take work:
adding tablespaces, adding point-in-time recovery, fixing the interval
datatype, generalizing locale support so you can have more than one
locale per installation.

It could be that once pg_upgrade exists in a production-ready form,
PG developers will voluntarily do that extra work themselves. But
I doubt it (and if it did happen that way, it would mean a significant
slowdown in the rate of development). I think someone will have to
commit to doing the extra work, rather than just telling other people
what they ought to do. It could be a permanent full-time task ...
at least until we stop finding reasons we need to change the on-disk
data representation, which may or may not ever happen.

regards, tom lane

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to ma*******@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

Nov 11 '05 #70

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

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