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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10116
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 16:50, Nigel J. Andrews wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:
Tom Lane wrote:
Bruce Momjian <pg***@candle.p ha.pa.us> writes:
> With all the discussion and pg_upgrade, I saw no one offer to work on
> it.
> Does someone want to convert it to Perl? I think that would be a better
> language than shell script for this purpose, and C is too low-level.

The reason that it needs to be rewritten in C is that it needs access to
internal stuff that the backend doesn't expose. (For example, the
transaction counter, end-of-WAL pointer, etc.) I don't think Perl would
offer anything except creating an entirely new dependency for Postgres.
Also, C code would be easier to keep in sync with the backend code that
accesses the same stuff.

Isn't Perl pretty ubiquitous on "Unix" now, though? Except maybe
Unixware....
True, but doing all that text manipulation is C is going to be very hard
to do and maintain.


What about using embedded perl? I've never done it before but the mention of it
in manpages has flashed past my eyes a couple of times so I know it's possible.

Did the discuss decide on what was required for this. Last I noticed was that
there was a distinction being made between system and user tables but I don't
recall seeing a 'requirements' summary.


What about Perl w/ C modules? Of course, there's my favorite: Python.
It's got a good facility for writing C modules, and I think it's
better for writing s/w that needs to be constantly updated.

(I swear, it's just circumstance that this particular .signature
came up at this time, but it is apropos.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

YODA: Code! Yes. A programmer's strength flows from code
maintainability . But beware of Perl. Terse syntax... more
than one way to do it...default variables. The dark side of code
maintainability are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you
when code you write. If once you start down the dark path,
forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
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Nov 12 '05 #221


On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
Isn't Perl pretty ubiquitous on "Unix" now, though? Except maybe
Unixware....


I know that Solaris now has it included by default ...
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Nov 12 '05 #222
perl ships on UnixWare (5.005, but that will change in UP3).

LER
--On Saturday, September 27, 2003 22:42:02 -0300 "Marc G. Fournier"
<sc*****@postgr esql.org> wrote:


On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
Isn't Perl pretty ubiquitous on "Unix" now, though? Except maybe
Unixware....


I know that Solaris now has it included by default ...
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--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: le*@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749

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Nov 12 '05 #223

$$$ -- I wasn't looking to purchase a programmer. :-)


Well sometimes it takes money to get things done. Personally I don't see
a big need
for pg_upgrade but there was enough people making noise about it that it
made sense
to make the proposal. Several people did come back and offer to cough up
a little bit
but not enough to get the project done.

My prefernce is to see all that work going into pg_dump, pg_dumpall and
pg_restore.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

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Nov 12 '05 #224
On Saturday 27 September 2003 09:45 pm, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
$$$ -- I wasn't looking to purchase a programmer. :-)
Well sometimes it takes money to get things done. Personally I don't see
a big need
for pg_upgrade but there was enough people making noise about it that it
made sense
to make the proposal. Several people did come back and offer to cough up
a little bit
but not enough to get the project done.
I could always forward you my fan mail (context for the following message is
that I was extolling the group of people that help me build the various RPM
sets as an example of how backports of Fedora Core packages could be done to
'Fedora Legacy' stuff (many thanks to those who help me, BTW.)):

=============== ====
Re: I volunteer
From: Chuck Wolber <ch****@quantum linux.com>
To: fe************* **@redhat.com
I as PostgreSQL RPM maintainer for the PostgreSQL Global Development
Group do something similar to this using a loose group of volunteers.


<TROLL>
Ahhh, so you're the one. Perhaps you could write a postgreSQL RPM with
upgrade functionality that actually works?
</TROLL>

-Chuck

--
Quantum Linux Laboratories - ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology
* Education | -=^ Ad Astra Per Aspera ^=-
* Integration | http://www.quantumlinux.com
* Support | ch****@quantuml inux.com
=============== ======
You know, I don't mind owning up to my own bugs. But this bug ain't mine.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC 28772
(828)862-5554
www.pari.edu
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Nov 12 '05 #225


On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Larry Rosenman wrote:
perl ships on UnixWare (5.005, but that will change in UP3).
In what way? :) It won't ship anymore ... or upgraded?
LER
--On Saturday, September 27, 2003 22:42:02 -0300 "Marc G. Fournier"
<sc*****@postgr esql.org> wrote:


On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
Isn't Perl pretty ubiquitous on "Unix" now, though? Except maybe
Unixware....


I know that Solaris now has it included by default ...
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--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: le*@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


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Nov 12 '05 #226


--On Sunday, September 28, 2003 00:14:18 -0300 "Marc G. Fournier"
<sc*****@postgr esql.org> wrote:


On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Larry Rosenman wrote:
perl ships on UnixWare (5.005, but that will change in UP3).


In what way? :) It won't ship anymore ... or upgraded?

upgraded to 5.8.0

(sorry, should have been more clear :-))

LER
--On Saturday, September 27, 2003 22:42:02 -0300 "Marc G. Fournier"
<sc*****@postgr esql.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:
>
>> Isn't Perl pretty ubiquitous on "Unix" now, though? Except maybe
>> Unixware....
>
> I know that Solaris now has it included by default ...
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of
> broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 8: explain analyze is your
> friend
>


--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: le*@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: le*@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749

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Nov 12 '05 #227
Ron Johnson wrote:
There's always the general point that C has more pitfalls (mainly
from pointers/free()/malloc(), and HLLs do more for you, thus you
have to code less, and, consequently, there are fewer bugs.

Someday, they're going to make a langauge called:

CBC, "C Bounds Checked"

No buffer overflows, all memory allocs and mallocs create a memory
object that self expands or contracts as necessary, or issues an
exception if it tries to go past a limit you put as an argumen to a malloc.

With gigabytes of real memory and 100 gigibytes plus of virtual memory,
the programmer should not handle memory management any more. The
consumers and software users expect programmers to give up their pride
and let go of total control of the memory model, (like they have it now
). The only excetion might be hardware drivers.

Nobody say C#, OK? An Msoft imposed solution that integrates all their
products, mistakes, football stadium sized APIs, and private backdoors
is not the answer.

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Nov 12 '05 #228
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 22:19, Dennis Gearon wrote:
Ron Johnson wrote:
There's always the general point that C has more pitfalls (mainly
from pointers/free()/malloc(), and HLLs do more for you, thus you
have to code less, and, consequently, there are fewer bugs.
Someday, they're going to make a langauge called:

CBC, "C Bounds Checked"

No buffer overflows, all memory allocs and mallocs create a memory
object that self expands or contracts as necessary, or issues an
exception if it tries to go past a limit you put as an argumen to a malloc.

With gigabytes of real memory and 100 gigibytes plus of virtual memory,
the programmer should not handle memory management any more. The
consumers and software users expect programmers to give up their pride
and let go of total control of the memory model, (like they have it now
). The only excetion might be hardware drivers.


Some would say that that's what Java and C++ are for. I'd do more
Java programming if it didn't have an API the size of Montana, no
make that Alaska and a good chunk of Siberia.

But still, multiple pointers being able to point to the same chunk
of the heap will doom any solution to inefficiency.

IMNSHO, only the kernel and *high-performance* products should be
written in C. Everything else should be written in HLLs. Anything
from COBOL (still a useful language), FORTRAN, modern BASICs, to
pointer-less Pascal, Java, Smalltalk, Lisp, and scripting languages.

Note that I did *not* mention C++.
Nobody say C#, OK? An Msoft imposed solution that integrates all their
products, mistakes, football stadium sized APIs, and private backdoors
is not the answer.


natch!

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

"they love our milk and honey, but preach about another way of living"
Merle Haggard, "The Fighting Side Of Me"
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Nov 12 '05 #229

Ron Johnson <ro***********@ cox.net> writes:
Tom Lane wrote:
> The reason that it needs to be rewritten in C is that it needs access to
> internal stuff that the backend doesn't expose. (For example, the
> transaction counter, end-of-WAL pointer, etc.) I don't think Perl would
> offer anything except creating an entirely new dependency for Postgres.
> Also, C code would be easier to keep in sync with the backend code that
> accesses the same stuff.
What about Perl w/ C modules? Of course, there's my favorite: Python.


Fwiw, it's pretty easy to call out to C functions from perl code these days.

bash-2.05b$ perl -e 'use Inline C => "int a(int i,int j) { return i+j;}"; print(a(1,2),"\ n")'
3

That said I don't know if this is really such a good approach. I don't see why
you would need much string manipulation at all. The C code can just construct
directly whatever data structures it needs and call directly whatever
functions it needs. Doing string manipulation to construct dynamic sql code
and then hope it gets interpreted and executed the way it's expecting seems a
roundabout way to go about getting things done.

--
greg
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Nov 12 '05 #230

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