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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10127
Kaare Rasmussen <ka*@kakidata.d k> writes:
Some people have claimed that the big commercial databases don't change their
on-disk represantation anymore. Maybe PostgreSQL could try to aim for this
goal.
At the very least we could try to quantize changes --- say, allow
on-disk changes only every third or fourth major release, and batch up
work requiring such changes. Avoiding on-disk changes actually was a
design consideration for awhile, but we sort of stopped worrying about
it when the prototype version of pg_upgrade stopped working (which IIRC
was because it couldn't get at what it would need to get at without
being rewritten in C, and no one wanted to tackle that project).
How do other Open Source systems do ? MySQL (or maybe better: InnoDB),
FireBird ??


Dunno about MySQL. I'm pretty sure I remember Ann Harrison stating that
FireBird's disk structures haven't changed since the beginning of
Interbase. Which you might take as saying that they were a lot smarter
than we are, but I suspect what it really means is that
FireBird/Interbase hasn't undergone the kind of metamorphosis of purpose
that the Postgres code base has. Keep in mind that it started as an
experimental academic prototype (representing some successful ideas and
some not-so-successful ones), and the current developers have been
laboring to convert it into an industrial-strength production tool ---
keeping the good experimental ideas, but weeding out the bad ones, and
adding production-oriented features that weren't in the original design.
The entire argument that version-to-version stability should be a
critical goal would have been foreign to the original developers of
Postgres.

regards, tom lane

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Nov 11 '05 #141
I have no doubt that a competent programmer could learn the Postgres
innards well enough to do the job; as someone pointed out earlier in
this thread, none of the core committee was born knowing Postgres.
I do, however, doubt that it can be done in six months if one has
any significant learning curve to climb up first.

Hello,

This is a completely reasonable statement. However we have
three full time programmers right now that are fairly familiar with
the internals of PostgreSQL. They are the programmers that
are currently coding our transactional replication engine (which
is going beta in about 3 weeks), plPHP, and also did the work on
S/ODBC, S/JDBC and PgManage.

I am not going to say that we are neccessarily Tom Lane material ;)
but my programmers are quite good and learning more everyday. They
have been in the guts of PostgreSQL for 9 months straight, 40 hours
a week now.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

regards, tom lane


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

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Nov 11 '05 #142
I had already committed $50/mo.

Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:05 -0700)
Dennis Gearon <ge*****@firese rve.net> uttered something amazingly similar to:
Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something amazingly similar
to:

If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at
Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in $100. I

Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.


That's $100 once. And last I looked, there are well over 1800 subscribers on
this list alone. On the astronomically small chance everyone one of them did
what I'm doing, it would cover more than 6 months of development time ;-) This
strikes me as like supporting public radio. The individuals do some, and the
corporations do a bunch.

I'm just putting my money toward a great product, rather than complaining that
it's not done. Just like Joshua is doing. You cannot hire a competent
programmer for $24k a year, so he is putting up some money on this also.

There have been a couple of other bytes from small businesses, so who knows!

You game?

Cheers,
Rob

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Nov 11 '05 #143
Hello,

O.k. here are my thoughts on how this could work:

Command Prompt will set up an escrow account online at www.escrow.com.
When the Escrow account totals 2000.00 and is released, Command Prompt
will dedicate a
programmer for one month to debugging, documenting, reviewing,
digging, crying,
screaming, begging and bleeding with the code. At the end of the month
and probably during
depending on how everything goes Command Prompt will release its
findings. The findings
will include a project plan on moving forward over the next 5 months
(if that is what it takes) to
produce the first functional pg_upgrade.

If the project is deemed as moving in the right direction by the
community members and specifically
the core members we will setup milestone payments for the project.

What does everyone think?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
Dennis Gearon wrote:
I had already committed $50/mo.

Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:05 -0700)
Dennis Gearon <ge*****@firese rve.net> uttered something amazingly
similar to:
Robert Creager wrote:

Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something
amazingly similar
to:

> If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of
> at

Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in
$100. I
Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.

That's $100 once. And last I looked, there are well over 1800
subscribers on
this list alone. On the astronomically small chance everyone one of
them did
what I'm doing, it would cover more than 6 months of development time
;-) This
strikes me as like supporting public radio. The individuals do some,
and the
corporations do a bunch.

I'm just putting my money toward a great product, rather than
complaining that
it's not done. Just like Joshua is doing. You cannot hire a competent
programmer for $24k a year, so he is putting up some money on this also.

There have been a couple of other bytes from small businesses, so who
knows!

You game?

Cheers,
Rob


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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Nov 11 '05 #144
Hi,
Command Prompt will set up an escrow account online at www.escrow.com.
When the Escrow account totals 2000.00 and is released, Command Prompt
will dedicate a programmer for one month to debugging, documenting,
reviewing, digging, crying, screaming, begging and bleeding with the
code. At the end of the month and probably during depending on how
everything goes Command Prompt will release its findings. The findings
will include a project plan on moving forward over the next 5 months
(if that is what it takes) to produce the first functional pg_upgrade.

If the project is deemed as moving in the right direction by the
community members and specifically the core members we will setup
milestone payments for the project.

What does everyone think?


Sounds good. It provides a safe way for people to fund this development. I
can't promise anything yet on behalf of my company, but I'll donate at least
$50,- personally.

Sander.
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Nov 11 '05 #145
Hello,

Yes that would be expected. I was figuring the first 2k would be the
diagnostics/development
of that plan so that we would have a real idea of what the programmers
think it would take. Thus
the statement of the next 5 months etc..

J
Network Administrator wrote:
That sounds good save two things. We need to state what are the project run
dates and what happens at or around the due date. That to say we have the
deliverable for testing (beta ready), more time is needed to complete core
features (alpha ready) and therefore more funds are needed, project is one hold
due to features needed outside the scope of the project, etc, etc, etc...

You get the idea.

Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
Hello,

O.k. here are my thoughts on how this could work:

Command Prompt will set up an escrow account online at www.escrow.com.
When the Escrow account totals 2000.00 and is released, Command Prompt
will dedicate a
programmer for one month to debugging, documenting, reviewing,
digging, crying,
screaming, begging and bleeding with the code. At the end of the month
and probably during
depending on how everything goes Command Prompt will release its
findings. The findings
will include a project plan on moving forward over the next 5 months
(if that is what it takes) to
produce the first functional pg_upgrade.

If the project is deemed as moving in the right direction by the
community members and specifically
the core members we will setup milestone payments for the project.

What does everyone think?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
Dennis Gearon wrote:
I had already committed $50/mo.

Robert Creager wrote:

Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:05 -0700)
Dennis Gearon <ge*****@firese rve.net> uttered something amazingly
similar to:

>Robert Creager wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>>Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
>>"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something
>>amazing ly similar
>>to:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of
>>>at
>>>
>>>
>>Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in
>>$100. I
>>
>>
>>
>Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.
>
>
>
That's $100 once. And last I looked, there are well over 1800
subscribe rs on
this list alone. On the astronomically small chance everyone one of
them did
what I'm doing, it would cover more than 6 months of development time
;-) This
strikes me as like supporting public radio. The individuals do some,
and the
corporation s do a bunch.

I'm just putting my money toward a great product, rather than
complaini ng that
it's not done. Just like Joshua is doing. You cannot hire a competent
programme r for $24k a year, so he is putting up some money on this also.

There have been a couple of other bytes from small businesses, so who
knows!

You game?

Cheers,
Rob


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html



--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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Nov 11 '05 #146

Sounds good to me. I can throw in $500 to start.

On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 12:06 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Hello,

O.k. here are my thoughts on how this could work:

Command Prompt will set up an escrow account online at www.escrow.com.
When the Escrow account totals 2000.00 and is released, Command
Prompt will dedicate a
programmer for one month to debugging, documenting, reviewing,
digging, crying,
screaming, begging and bleeding with the code. At the end of the
month and probably during
depending on how everything goes Command Prompt will release its
findings. The findings
will include a project plan on moving forward over the next 5 months
(if that is what it takes) to
produce the first functional pg_upgrade.

If the project is deemed as moving in the right direction by the
community members and specifically
the core members we will setup milestone payments for the project.

What does everyone think?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Dennis Gearon wrote:
I had already committed $50/mo.

Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:05 -0700)
Dennis Gearon <ge*****@firese rve.net> uttered something amazingly
similar to:
Robert Creager wrote:
> Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something
> amazingly similar
> to:
>
>
>
>
>> If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period
>> of at
>
> Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in
> $100. I
>

Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.

That's $100 once. And last I looked, there are well over 1800
subscribers on
this list alone. On the astronomically small chance everyone one of
them did
what I'm doing, it would cover more than 6 months of development
time ;-) This
strikes me as like supporting public radio. The individuals do
some, and the
corporations do a bunch.

I'm just putting my money toward a great product, rather than
complaining that
it's not done. Just like Joshua is doing. You cannot hire a
competent
programmer for $24k a year, so he is putting up some money on this
also.

There have been a couple of other bytes from small businesses, so
who knows!

You game?

Cheers,
Rob


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of
broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05 #147
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
And that has nothing to do with user need as a whole, since the care
level I mentioned is predicated by the developer interest level.
While I know, Marc, how the whole project got started (I have read the
first posts), and I appreciate that you, Bruce, Thomas, and Vadim
started the original core team because you were and are users of
PostgreSQL , I sincerely believe that in this instance you are out of
touch with this need of many of today's userbase.
Huh? I have no disagreement that upgrading is a key feature that we are
lacking ... but, if there are any *on disk* changes between releases, how
do you propose 'in place upgrades'?
RTA. It's been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again. I've asked twice if
eRserver can replicate a 7.3 database onto a 7.4 server (or a 7.2 onto a
7.3); that question has yet to be answered. If it can do this, then I
would be a much happier camper. I would be happy for a migration tool
that could read the old format _without_a_runn ing_old_backend _ and
convert it to the new format _without_a_runn ing_backend_. That's always
been my beef, that the new backend is powerless to recover the old data.
OS upgrades where PostgreSQL is part of the OS, FreeBSD ports upgrades
(according to a user report on the lists a few months back), and RPM
upgrades are absolutely horrid at this point. *You* might can stand it;
some cannot.

Granted, if its just changes to the system catalogs and such, pg_upgrade should be able to be taught to handle
it .. I haven't seen anyone step up to do so, and for someone spending so
much time pushing for an upgrade path, I haven't seen you pony up the time
I believe I pony up quite a bit of time already, Marc. Not as much as
some, by any means, but I am not making one red cent doing what I do for
the project. And one time I was supposed to have gotten paid for a
related project, I didn't. I did get paid by Great Bridge for RPM work
as a one-shot deal, though.

The time I've already spent on this is too much. I've probably put
several hundred hours of my time into this issue in one form or another;
what I don't have time to do is climb the steep slope Tom mentioned
earlier. I actually need to feed my family, and my employer has more
for me to do than something that should have already been done.
Just curious here ... but, with all the time you've spent pushing for an
"easy upgrade path", have you looked at the other RDBMSs and how they deal
with upgrades? I think its going to be a sort of apples-to-oranges thing,
since I imagine that most of the 'big ones' don't change their disk
formats anymore ...
I don't use the others; thus I don't care how they do it; only how we do
it. But even MySQL has a better system than we -- they allow you to
migrate table by table, gaining the new features of the new format when
you migrate. Tom and I pretty much reached consensus that the reason we
have a problem with this is the integration of features in the system
catalogs, and the lack of separation between 'system' information in the
catalogs and 'feature' or 'user' information in the catalogs. It's all
in the archives that nobdy seems willing to read over again. Why do we
even have archives if they're not going to be used?

If bugfixes were consistently backported, and support was provided for
older versions running on newer OS's, then this wouldn't be as much of a
problem. But we orphan our code afte one version cycle; 7.0.x is
completely unsupported, for instance, while even 7.2.x is virtually
unsupported. My hat's off to Red Hat for backporting the buffer
overflow fixes to all their supported versions; we certainly wouldn't
have don it. And 7.3.x will be unsupported once we get past 7.4
release, right? So in order to get critical bug fixes, users must
upgrade to a later codebase, and go through the pain of upgrading their
data.
K, looking back through that it almost sounds like a ramble ... hopefully
you understand what I'm asking ...


*I* should complain about a ramble? :-)
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
Formerly of WGCR Internet Radio, and the PostgreSQL RPM maintainer since
1999.

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Nov 11 '05 #148

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Lamar Owen wrote:
Huh? I have no disagreement that upgrading is a key feature that we are
lacking ... but, if there are any *on disk* changes between releases, how
do you propose 'in place upgrades'?


RTA. It's been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again. I've asked twice if
eRserver can replicate a 7.3 database onto a 7.4 server (or a 7.2 onto a
7.3); that question has yet to be answered.


'K, I had already answered it as part of this thread when I suggested
doing exactly that ... in response to which several ppl questioned the
feasibility of setting up a duplicate system with >1TB of disk space to do
the replication over to ...

See: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql...9/msg00886.php

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Nov 11 '05 #149

On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:

RTA. It's been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again. I've asked twice
if eRserver can replicate a 7.3 database onto a 7.4 server (or a 7.2
onto a 7.3); that question has yet to be answered. If it can do this,
then I would be a much happier camper. I would be happy for a
migration tool that could read the old format
_without_a_runn ing_old_backend _ and convert it to the new format
_without_a_runn ing_backend_. That's always been my beef, that the new
backend is powerless to recover the old data. OS upgrades where
PostgreSQL is part of the OS, FreeBSD ports upgrades (according to a
user report on the lists a few months back), and RPM upgrades are
absolutely horrid at this point. *You* might can stand it; some > cannot.


eRserver should be able to migrate the data. If you make heavy use of
sequences, schemas and other such things it won't help you for those.

Its not a bad idea to do it that way, if you aren't dealing with large
or very complex databases. The first thing its going to do when you add
a slave is do a dump/restore to create the replication target. If you
can afford the disk space and time, that will migrate the data. By
itself that isn't any different than doing that by hand. Where eRserver
may help is keeping the data in sync while you work the other things
out.

Sequences and schemas are the two things it doesn't handle at the
moment. I've created a patch and some new client apps to manage the
schema part, but I haven't had the chance to send them off to someone
to see if they'll fit in. Sequences are on my list of things to do
next. Time time time time.....

Using eRserver may help you work around the problem, given certain
conditions. It doesn't solve it. I think if we can get Mr. Drake's
initiative off the ground we may at least figure out if there is a
solution.
--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05 #150

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Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
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5990
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
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4609
by: 6302768590 | last post by:
Hai team i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
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4215
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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3231
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

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