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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10121
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something amazingly similar to:
If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at
least 6 months, I will dedicated one of my programmers to the task. So
if you want it bad enough there it is. I will donate all changes,
patches etc.. to the project and I will cover the additional costs that
are over and above the 12,000. If we get it done quicker, all the better.


Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in $100. I
don't do db's except for play, but I hate the dump/restore part. I've lost data
two times fat-fingering the upgrade, trying to use two running installations on
the same machine. I'm that good...

Cheers,
Rob

--
21:28:34 up 46 days, 14:03, 4 users, load average: 2.00, 2.00, 2.00

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Nov 11 '05 #131
Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something amazingly similar to:
If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at
least 6 months, I will dedicated one of my programmers to the task. So
if you want it bad enough there it is. I will donate all changes,
patches etc.. to the project and I will cover the additional costs that
are over and above the 12,000. If we get it done quicker, all the better.


Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in $100. I
don't do db's except for play, but I hate the dump/restore part. I've lost data
two times fat-fingering the upgrade, trying to use two running installations on
the same machine. I'm that good...

Cheers,
Rob

Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.
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Nov 11 '05 #132
Andrew Rawnsley <ro**@ravensfie ld.com> writes:
On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 03:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at
least 6 months, I will dedicated one of my programmers to the task.
Do the core folk (Tom/Bruce/Jan/etc) think this is doable with that
sort of time commitment?


While I dislike staring gift horses in the mouth, I have to say that
the people I think could do it (a) are getting paid more than $24K/yr,
and (b) are names already seen regularly in the PG commit logs. If
there's anyone in category (b) who works for Command Prompt, I missed
the connection.

I have no doubt that a competent programmer could learn the Postgres
innards well enough to do the job; as someone pointed out earlier in
this thread, none of the core committee was born knowing Postgres.
I do, however, doubt that it can be done in six months if one has
any significant learning curve to climb up first.

regards, tom lane

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Nov 11 '05 #133
>> If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at
least 6 months, I will dedicated one of my programmers to the task.


I stated the "how much will it cost" question, but I'm beginning to think that
it's the wrong approach. From the answers in this thread I do believe that it
will be an eternal chase with almost certainty of errors.

Some people have claimed that the big commercial databases don't change their
on-disk represantation anymore. Maybe PostgreSQL could try to aim for this
goal. At least try to get the on-disk changes ready for 7.5 - with or without
the functionality to use it. I think that any pg_* table changes could be
done with a small and efficient pg_upgrade.

Big items that will change the way PostgreSQL stores its data would be
Tablespaces
PITR
....
More ?

I know it's not possible to tell the future, but if Oracle is steady,
shouldn't it be possible?

How do other Open Source systems do ? MySQL (or maybe better: InnoDB),
FireBird ??

--
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Nov 11 '05 #134
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

How do other Open Source systems do ? MySQL (or maybe better: InnoDB),
FireBird ??

Well MySql for one has more than one on-disk format....
One that supports transactions and one that does not. Looks like they do
it my writting different tables in different ways. A very stupid thing to
do if you ask me.

Peter Childs
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Nov 11 '05 #135


On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
I know it's not possible to tell the future, but if Oracle is steady,
shouldn't it be possible?


Also consider that Oracle has 'the big bucks' to dedicate a group of staff
to keep on top of the upgrade issues ...
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Nov 11 '05 #136
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 03:45, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
[snip]
Some people have claimed that the big commercial databases don't change their
on-disk represantation anymore. Maybe PostgreSQL could try to aim for this
goal. At least try to get the on-disk changes ready for 7.5 - with or without
the functionality to use it. I think that any pg_* table changes could be
done with a small and efficient pg_upgrade.

[snip]

I think changes in the system catalog should be separated from
changes in the physical on-disk structures (i.e. how tables and
indexes are stored).

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but ALTERing the pg_* tables during each
version upgrade should be relatively easy to script, when the phys-
ical on-disk structures have been solidified.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

The difference between drunken sailors and Congressmen is that
drunken sailors spend their own money.
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Nov 11 '05 #137
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:05 -0700)
Dennis Gearon <ge*****@firese rve.net> uttered something amazingly similar to:
Robert Creager wrote:
Once upon a time (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:59:37 -0700)
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com> uttered something amazingly similar
to:
If someone is willing to pony up 2000.00 per month for a period of at


Well, if you're willing to set up some sort of escrow, I'll put in $100. I


Is that $100 times once, or $100 X 6mos anticiapated develop time.


That's $100 once. And last I looked, there are well over 1800 subscribers on
this list alone. On the astronomically small chance everyone one of them did
what I'm doing, it would cover more than 6 months of development time ;-) This
strikes me as like supporting public radio. The individuals do some, and the
corporations do a bunch.

I'm just putting my money toward a great product, rather than complaining that
it's not done. Just like Joshua is doing. You cannot hire a competent
programmer for $24k a year, so he is putting up some money on this also.

There have been a couple of other bytes from small businesses, so who knows!

You game?

Cheers,
Rob

--
07:47:48 up 47 days, 22 min, 4 users, load average: 2.04, 2.07, 2.02

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Nov 11 '05 #138
This is along the lines of what I was talking about. If at compile time a user
could chose their on disk representation by version within a reasonable history
(say two major versions back) then I that would give people a choice for a
certain about of time.

Backward compatibility is nice but at a certain point it will become "backward"
(or better yet awkward or maybe just damn near impossible) to support certain
past features.

This is a user reality, upgrades are part of owning and using any system. Its
just that we don't want to seemingly force people to upgrade. I don't think
that is hard for someone that 24/7 shop with very large databases to understand.

Quoting Ron Johnson <ro***********@ cox.net>:
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 03:45, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
[snip]
Some people have claimed that the big commercial databases don't change

their
on-disk represantation anymore. Maybe PostgreSQL could try to aim for this

goal. At least try to get the on-disk changes ready for 7.5 - with or

without
the functionality to use it. I think that any pg_* table changes could be
done with a small and efficient pg_upgrade.

[snip]

I think changes in the system catalog should be separated from
changes in the physical on-disk structures (i.e. how tables and
indexes are stored).

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but ALTERing the pg_* tables during each
version upgrade should be relatively easy to script, when the phys-
ical on-disk structures have been solidified.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@c ox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

The difference between drunken sailors and Congressmen is that
drunken sailors spend their own money.
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--
Keith C. Perry
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

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Nov 11 '05 #139
Ron Johnson <ro***********@ cox.net> writes:
I think changes in the system catalog should be separated from
changes in the physical on-disk structures (i.e. how tables and
indexes are stored).


We already know how to cope with changes in the system catalogs ---
pg_upgrade has pretty much proved out how to do that. The original
shell-script implementation wasn't bulletproof enough for production use
(IMHO anyway), but that's because it was an experimental prototype, not
because there was anything fundamentally wrong with the concept.

The hard part is dealing with mostly-unforeseeable future changes in
our needs for representation of user data. We can and already have done
some simple things like include version numbers in page headers, but it
would be a fatal mistake to suppose that that means the problem is
solved, or that actually doing in-place upgrades won't require a
tremendous amount of additional work.

regards, tom lane

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Nov 11 '05 #140

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