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State of Beta 2


Anyone out there using beta 2 in production situations? Comments on
stability? I am rolling out a project in the next 4 weeks, and really
don't want to go though an upgrade soon after its released on an
Unsuspecting Client, so I would LIKE to start working with 7.4.

--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05
236 10121
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 13:24, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Strawmen. If we provide a good upgrade capability, we would just
simply have to think about upgrades before changing features like
that. The upgrade code could be cognizant of these sorts of things;
and shoud be, in fact.


Sure but IMHO it would be more important to fix bugs like the parser not
correctly using indexes on bigint unless the value is quoted...

I think everyone would agree that not having to use initdb would be nice
but I think there is much more important things to focus on.

Besides if you are upgrading PostgreSQL in a production environment I
would assume there would be an extremely valid reason. If the reason is
big enough to do a major version upgrade then an initdb shouldn't be all
that bad of a requirement.


Hmmm. A (US-oriented) hypothetical:
BOSS: The app works now. Why rock the boat?
DBA: The new version has features that will save 20% disk space,
and speed up certain operations by 75% every day.
BOSS: Fantastic! How long will it take to upgrade?
DBA: 18 hours.
BOSS: 18 hours!! We can only take that much downtime on Thanks-
giving weekend, or 3-day July 4th, Christmas or New Year's
weekends.

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Jefferson, LA USA

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Nov 11 '05 #111
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 15:23, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I'm not going to rehash the arguments I have made before; they are all
archived. Suffice to say you are simply wrong. The number of
complaints over the years shows that there IS a need.

I at no point suggested that there was not a need. I only suggest that
the need may not be as great as some suspect or feel. To be honest -- if
your arguments were the "need" that everyone had... it would have been
implemented some how. It hasn't yet which would suggest that the number
of people that have the "need" at your level is not as great as the
number of people who have different "needs" from PostgreSQL.


But the problem is that as more and more people put larger and larger
datasets, that are mission-critical, into PostgreSQL, the need will
grow larger and larger.

Of course, we understand the "finite resources" issue, and are not
badgering/complaining. Simply, we are trying to make our case that
this is something that should go on the TODO list, and be kept in
the back of developers' minds.

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Jefferson, LA USA

"You ask us the same question every day, and we give you the
same answer every day. Someday, we hope that you will believe us..."
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Nov 11 '05 #112
Hmmm. A (US-oriented) hypothetical:
BOSS: The app works now. Why rock the boat?
DBA: The new version has features that will save 20% disk space,
and speed up certain operations by 75% every day.
BOSS: Fantastic! How long will it take to upgrade?
DBA: 18 hours.
BOSS: 18 hours!! We can only take that much downtime on Thanks-
giving weekend, or 3-day July 4th, Christmas or New Year's
weekends.


Sounds like you just found several weekends a year that you
can do the upgrade with ;). Yes that was a joke.

Sincerley,

Joshua Drake

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Nov 11 '05 #113
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I'm not going to rehash the arguments I have made before;
I at no point suggested that there was not a need. I only suggest that
the need may not be as great as some suspect or feel. To be honest -- if
your arguments were the "need" that everyone had... it would have been
implemented some how. It hasn't yet which would suggest that the number
Just to add to this ... Bruce *did* start pg_upgrade, but I don't recall
anyone else looking at extending it ... if the *need* was so great,
someone would have step'd up and looked into adding to what was already
there ...


You'ns are going to make a liar out of me yet; I said I wasn't going to
rehash the arguments. But I am going to answer Marc's statement. Need
of the users != developer interest in implementing those. This is the
ugly fact of open source software -- it is developer-driven, not
user-driven. If it were user-driven in this case seamless upgrading
would have already happened. But the sad fact is that the people who
have the necessary knowledge of the codebase in question are so
complacent and comfortable with the current dump/reload cycle that they
really don't seem to care about the upgrade issue. That is quite a
harsh statement to make, yes, and I know that is kind of
uncharacteristi c for me. But, Marc, your statement thoroughy ignores
the archived history of this issue on the lists.

While pg_upgrade was a good first step (and I applaud Bruce for working
on it), it was promptly broken because the developers who changed the
on-disk format felt it wasn't important to make it continue working.

Stepping up to the plate on this issue will require an intimate
knowledge of the storage manager subsystem, a thorough knowledge of the
system catalogs, etc. This has been discussed at length; I'll not
repeat it. Just any old developer can't do this -- it needs the
long-term focused attention of Tom, Jan, or Bruce. And that isn't going
to happen. We know Tom's take on it; it's archived. Maybe there's
someone out there with the deep knowledge of the backend to make this
happen who cares enough about it to make it happen, and who has the time
to do it. I care enough to do the work; but I have neither the deep
knowledge necessary nor the time to make it happen. There are many in
my position. But those who could make it happen don't seem to have the
care level to do so.

And that has nothing to do with user need as a whole, since the care
level I mentioned is predicated by the developer interest level. While
I know, Marc, how the whole project got started (I have read the first
posts), and I appreciate that you, Bruce, Thomas, and Vadim started the
original core team because you were and are users of PostgreSQL, I
sincerely believe that in this instance you are out of touch with this
need of many of today's userbase. And I say that with full knowledge of
PostgreSQL Inc.'s support role. If given the choice between upgrading
capability, PITR, and Win32 support, my vote would go to upgrading.
Then migrating to PITR won't be a PITN.

What good are great features if it's a PITN to get upgraded to them?
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

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Nov 11 '05 #114
> repeat it. Just any old developer can't do this -- it needs the
long-term focused attention of Tom, Jan, or Bruce. And that isn't going
I believe that neither of these people was born with the knowledge of how
PostgreSQL is working. An experienced developer with the time and the money
would be able to solve your problem.
to do it. I care enough to do the work; but I have neither the deep
knowledge necessary nor the time to make it happen. There are many in
You and others state that this is a very important issue. But it's really only
an issue if you can't ever have a service window. If people don't have
service windows, they have very expensive solutions and ought to be able to
afford the expense of a developer. They get so much for free, so if this is
the only problem they have, they should collect and hire a programmer.
my position. But those who could make it happen don't seem to have the
care level to do so.
They're occupied with other matters. And yes - they often choose from personal
interest - and an upgrade tool will never make top 5 for any normal developer
;-)
What good are great features if it's a PITN to get upgraded to them?


I still believe that users who can't upgrade are few and far between. If they
are so many, why won't they sponsor the cost for an upgrade utility ?

--
Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816 2582
Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816 2501
Howitzvej 75 Åben 12.00-18.00 Email: ka*@kakidata.dk
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Nov 11 '05 #115
Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
repeat it. Just any old developer can't do this -- it needs the
long-term focused attention of Tom, Jan, or Bruce. And that isn't going
I believe that neither of these people was born with the knowledge of how
PostgreSQL is working. An experienced developer with the time and the money
would be able to solve your problem.
There is a typo in my post; the indefinite article should be prepended
to the list of names; to solve this problem, we need _a_ Tom, Jan, or
Bruce, meaning a core-grade developer with substantial experience in
this codebase.
You and others state that this is a very important issue. But it's really only
an issue if you can't ever have a service window. If people don't have
service windows, they have very expensive solutions and ought to be able to
afford the expense of a developer. They get so much for free, so if this is
the only problem they have, they should collect and hire a programmer.
This is an issue for more than those you state. I have had numerous
complaints as RPM maintainer for the surprise people have when they find
out that PostgreSQL just has to be different from every other package
that they upgrade. But again, the issues are well documented in the
archives, and my patience for people who want to rehash these well
documented things is wearing thin. Tom has said that I have eloquently
stated my side of the argument, which, incidentally, I took as a massive
compliment (many thanks Tom), even though I don't personally feel it was
very eloquent. So read the archives, it is very thoroughly stated
there. But if I must continue restating what I have seen and heard,
then I guess I must.

And there are times dump/restore fails. Read the archives for those times.

It is ludicrous to require dump restore. I'm sorry, but that is my
studied opinion of the matter, over a period of 5 years. nd I don't
care if Oracle or anybody else in the RDBMS field also does this; it is
still ludicrous.
They're occupied with other matters. And yes - they often choose from personal
interest - and an upgrade tool will never make top 5 for any normal developer
;-)
And that's the root of the problem, as I already stated.
I still believe that users who can't upgrade are few and far between. If they
are so many, why won't they sponsor the cost for an upgrade utility ?


Read the archives, and read Red Hat's bugzilla for PostgreSQL before
making blanket unsubstantiated statements like that.
--
Lamar Owen
Director of Information Technology
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute

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Nov 11 '05 #116

On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 10:18 AM, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
repeat it. Just any old developer can't do this -- it needs the
long-term focused attention of Tom, Jan, or Bruce. And that isn't
going
I believe that neither of these people was born with the knowledge of
how
PostgreSQL is working. An experienced developer with the time and the
money
would be able to solve your problem.


I'll take Tom's word for it that it wouldn't be trivial, so I don't
think its quite so casual as that. I
wouldn't mind stepping up, but doing so would negate the need, as my
business would fail.
to do it. I care enough to do the work; but I have neither the deep
knowledge necessary nor the time to make it happen. There are many in


You and others state that this is a very important issue. But it's
really only
an issue if you can't ever have a service window. If people don't have
service windows, they have very expensive solutions and ought to be
able to
afford the expense of a developer. They get so much for free, so if
this is
the only problem they have, they should collect and hire a programmer.


Having a service window and wanting or being able to use it for
something that is bound
to make people nervous are two different things. And the idea that
people without service
windows having enough money to hire developers is complete fantasy, I'm
sorry.

Look, I'm not pissing and moaning about the developers lack of
attention or anything. They do
an amazing job. I understand the 'scratch the itch' nature of the
development, and the great amount
of progress they've made with what was a huge pile of garbled code. At
the same time,
everyone wants to advocate Postgres as an enterprise-ready system. If
you're going to do that,
you have to acknowledge the stumbling blocks. This is one of them. I
can pretty much guarantee
that I will not be allowed to upgrade several clients' systems unless
there's a real show-stopper,
because once I tell them what I have to do they'll tell me to get lost.

I've already given up on Oracle and DB2, and I'm not going back, so
I'll deal with this situation
as best I can. That and I run a small shop, so I don't need to bow to
politics or services/brand
requirements. A lot of people are not so fortunate, and anything that
can be said against
Postgres (or MySQL, FreeBSD, Linux, JBoss, whatever) becomes a hurdle
when trying to push for it.

my position. But those who could make it happen don't seem to have
the
care level to do so.


They're occupied with other matters. And yes - they often choose from
personal
interest - and an upgrade tool will never make top 5 for any normal
developer
;-)
What good are great features if it's a PITN to get upgraded to them?


I still believe that users who can't upgrade are few and far between.
If they
are so many, why won't they sponsor the cost for an upgrade utility ?


We don't exactly meet for beers every Thursday. In the end, I imagine
it will still take the attention
of one or more of the core developers. If any of them want to be
involved, I don't mind considering the
possibility.

--
Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816
2582
Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816
2501
Howitzvej 75 Åben 12.00-18.00 Email:
ka*@kakidata.dk
2000 Frederiksberg Lørdag 12.00-16.00 Web:
www.suse.dk

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--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com
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Nov 11 '05 #117
>>>>> "MGF" == Marc G Fournier <sc*****@postgr esql.org> writes:

MGF> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
MGF> Just to add to this ... Bruce *did* start pg_upgrade, but I don't recall
MGF> anyone else looking at extending it ... if the *need* was so great,
MGF> someone would have step'd up and looked into adding to what was already
MGF> there ...

Hmmm, this is the math I just did in my head:

time to implement pg_upgrade = X
time to dump/restore once per year = Y

If X > Y*2 then why bother expending the effort? Now, if the X was
distributed over a bunch of people, perhaps it would make sense to me.

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Nov 11 '05 #118
>>>>> "JDD" == Joshua D Drake <jd@commandprom pt.com> writes:
BOSS: 18 hours!! We can only take that much downtime on Thanks-
giving weekend, or 3-day July 4th, Christmas or New Year's
weekends.


JDD> Sounds like you just found several weekends a year that you
JDD> can do the upgrade with ;). Yes that was a joke.

it's not a joke around here!

every major long weekend, late saturday night or early saturday
morning, i log in and run major maintenance such as reindexing. so
far i've only had to do the dump/restore once from 7.1 to 7.2, and
that too happened on a long weekend.

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Internet: kh***@kciLink.c om Rockville, MD +1-240-453-8497
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Nov 11 '05 #119
> If X > Y*2 then why bother expending the effort? Now, if the X was
distributed over a bunch of people, perhaps it would make sense to me.

Since

affordability(a mount(X)) != amount(X)

Karsten
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Nov 11 '05 #120

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