Linux-powered handhelds, Ipods, mini-TIVO's, etc.

[Ranger West]

Hello there,

Are there any out-of-the box handhelds that run Linux/Apache/MYSQL and
PHP? Does Redhat, Suse, or Gentoo support any handhelds?

I know the Zaurus comes close, but I've heard people have problems
running LAMP applications on it.

It would be cool to be able to run any LAMP application on sourceforge
on a handheld computer.

That way the LAMP developer community could build cool applications
for future ipods/tivos/etc.

What would be the best way to build a Linux-powered ipod-like device?
Can this be done with off-the-shelf hardware?

The more places Linux runs, the better off we all are!

Please advise.

Thanks!

[Christopher Browne]

Oops! jo************@yahoo.com (Ranger West) was seen spray-painting on a wall:

Are there any out-of-the box handhelds that run Linux/Apache/MYSQL and
PHP? Does Redhat, Suse, or Gentoo support any handhelds?

I know the Zaurus comes close, but I've heard people have problems
running LAMP applications on it.

I would suggest taking a look at the article "The Hard Way / How Not
to Build a Linux PDA" <http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-05/hard_01.html>
written by someone involved heavily with the Zaurus efforts, which
have essentially failed.

There's a lot of merit to "small" computers running things like
Knoppix, but I don't see any of the handhelds being much more than
toys.

There are enough apps out there to let Linux users "sync" Palms with
plenty of applications that that's an eminently usable platform even
if you "haven't any Windows around."

I can sync the main apps against JPilot, as well as GNU Keyring, and
can happily use either Palm or JPilot GUI to control them. I run
Plucker to put 'news' on my Palm, which makes good 'bathroom' reading.

_None_ of the "Linux-based" PDAs have provide the equivalent
functionality of:
- Syncing against a 'desktop' for calendar/todo/address/notes
- Password management
- Document storage

Furthermore, the "Linux-based" PDAs have generally had _horrible_
interoperability with Linux, because the vendors didn't have enough
known Linux-based customers to _truly_ care about having Linux-based
sync/'desktop' apps.

The Zaurus only very marginally evades that being entirely true for
it, and Jason's article explains the fairly deep problems with it as a
platform.

If you have enough hardware to run a full-scale Linux distribution
complete with X and such, that's one thing. But that really means
something rather larger than a PDA.
--
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "ntlug.org")
http://linuxfinances.info/info/pims.html
"Moebius strippers only show you their back side." -- Unknown

[Nik Coughin]

Christopher Browne wrote:

If you have enough hardware to run a full-scale Linux distribution
complete with X and such, that's one thing. But that really means
something rather larger than a PDA.

Like an OQO? I really want one, pity they STILL haven't released it.

[filesiteguy]

On 8 Sep 2004 21:35:06 -0700, jo************@yahoo.com (Ranger West)
pecked out:

Hello there,

Are there any out-of-the box handhelds that run Linux/Apache/MYSQL and
PHP? Does Redhat, Suse, or Gentoo support any handhelds?
Royal was supossed to have one. Never came out of the gate, though.
That way the LAMP developer community could build cool applications
for future ipods/tivos/etc.
Not relating to handhelds, but i noticed two things recenlty.

1. DirecTV has a Tivo-like thing that does HDTV and runs Linux (don't
know which distro).

2. While flying on Delta Song this summer, the in-flight
movie/satellite system was booted as the plane took off. It ran
RedHat.
What would be the best way to build a Linux-powered ipod-like device?
Can this be done with off-the-shelf hardware?

Build one.

--

kai
www.gamephreakz.com || www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org
kai at 3gproductions dot com

"friends don't let friends use windows xp"

[Russell]

Jason Perlow's article in Linux Magazine could be about any number of
manufacturers holding the naive notion that they can profit from keeping
their interfaces secret and selling accessories to a captive audience.
It usually ends in failure or at least an insignificant market share.

Another blunder is in thinking that people with a fondness for something
(e.g. Linux, Star Trek, cameras, etc.) will accept any garbage that is
thrown into the market place. It ain't so; but they never seem to learn.

Christopher Browne wrote:

Oops! jo************@yahoo.com (Ranger West) was seen spray-painting on a wall:

I would suggest taking a look at the article "The Hard Way / How Not
to Build a Linux PDA" <http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-05/hard_01.html>
written by someone involved heavily with the Zaurus efforts, which
have essentially failed.
--------------------------------CUT---------------------

[Christopher Browne]

In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, Russell <ru*****@mitre.org> transmitted:

Another blunder is in thinking that people with a fondness for something
(e.g. Linux, Star Trek, cameras, etc.) will accept any garbage that is
thrown into the market place. It ain't so; but they never seem to learn.

I suppose that may point to them having the perspective:

"These people are using this 'Linux' thing that's kind of like a
hobbyist system that they are using because it's cheaper than getting
a _real_ product. They put up with its challenges; they'll
presumably put up with whatever crap we toss their way too."

Reality, of course, is that while there may be some "challenges" to
overcome, our expectations are vastly higher than that sort ever
imagined. There may be some hurdles to overcome in getting systems
bootstrapped, but beyond that point, some of the "user expectations"
WAY greater than are the case for (for instance) Windows. I routinely
expect uptimes, for instance, that some versions of Windows could
never actually achieve.

If it's crap, I sure won't be paying for it...
--
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "ntlug.org")
http://linuxfinances.info/info/nonrdbms.html
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus
handicapped." -- cb******@csi.uottawa.edu

[Ranger West]

Russell <ru*****@mitre.org> wrote in message news:<ch**********@newslocal.mitre.org>...

Jason Perlow's article in Linux Magazine could be about any number of
manufacturers holding the naive notion that they can profit from keeping
their interfaces secret and selling accessories to a captive audience.
It usually ends in failure or at least an insignificant market share.

Another blunder is in thinking that people with a fondness for something
(e.g. Linux, Star Trek, cameras, etc.) will accept any garbage that is
thrown into the market place. It ain't so; but they never seem to learn.

Christopher Browne wrote:

Oops! jo************@yahoo.com (Ranger West) was seen spray-painting on a wall:

I would suggest taking a look at the article "The Hard Way / How Not
to Build a Linux PDA" <http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-05/hard_01.html>
written by someone involved heavily with the Zaurus efforts, which
have essentially failed.
--------------------------------CUT---------------------

Hello there,

On the comp.os.linux.advocacy board, I got the following reply:

From: Rapskat (ra*****@mailblocks.com)
Subject: Re: Linux Handhelds Running Linux/Apache/MYSQL/PHP?: Linux IPODS?

View this article only
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 2004-09-09 09:36:42 PST

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:30:08 -0700, Ranger West wrote:
Hello there,

Are there any out-of-the box handhelds that run Linux/Apache/MYSQL and
PHP? Does Redhat, Suse, or Gentoo support any handhelds?

I know the Zaurus comes close, but I've heard people have problems
running LAMP applications on it.
The Zaurus doesn't just "come close", it's right there. I've had no
problems at all running LAMP apps on the Z. The Z uses Opera as its
browser, and if one can get around the screensize issues, it runs the same
as a full size desktop system.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that the Z hasn't really took off. I
suppose many people who are looking for just a PDA have little knowledge
or need of the full capabilities of this little gem.

With what you are referring to, it really has nothing much to do with the
client, but the server. The server system is the one that handles the
heavy lifting, all the client does is display the results, which is the
beauty of LAMP apps.

Unless you mean actually using the Z *as* a LAMP server? In that case,
though I'm sure it could be done, one must ask the question, "why?"

What would be the best way to build a Linux-powered ipod-like device?
That's a huge fish to tackle...do you mean software or hardware wise, or
both?
I hope this isn't off topic for this group--the more places Linux runs,
the better off we all are!

Please advise.
You may want to take a peek here...

http://www.linuxdevices.com

Thanks!

[David A. Desrosiers]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:35:06 -0700, Ranger West wrote:

Hello there,

Are there any out-of-the box handhelds that run Linux/Apache/MYSQL and
PHP? Does Redhat, Suse, or Gentoo support any handhelds?

Plenty:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/

[William Kendrick]

In comp.sys.palmtops filesiteguy <ab***@127.0.0.1> wrote:

1. DirecTV has a Tivo-like thing that does HDTV and runs Linux (don't
know which distro).

TiVo has a TiVo-like thing that runs Linux, too. It's called a TiVo. ;^)
(In case anyone out there didn't know that yet)

-bill!
bi**@newbreedsoftware.com Man, some trip this turned out to be.
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ All we caught is a tire, a boot,
New Breed Software a tin can and this book of cliches.

[William Kendrick]

In comp.sys.palmtops Christopher Browne <cb******@acm.org> wrote:

_None_ of the "Linux-based" PDAs have provide the equivalent
functionality of:
- Syncing against a 'desktop' for calendar/todo/address/notes
The Zaurus does. Unfortunately, Sharp/Trolltech/whoever focused so much
on supporting Windows syncing, that not much has come out on the Linux end
of things. I live without it, though.

I usually keep ALL my PIM stuff on my PDA, and don't try to keep my
desktop in sync. Even when I used a Palm III, I never sync'd it.
(I backed it up, and installed new apps, but never actually copied my
addressbook, to-do list or calendar into an equivalent app. on the desktop.)

- Password management
Huh. I've used _two_ different password management programs on my
Zaurus. I'm currently using SafeDee.

- Document storage
Not quite sure what you mean here.

Furthermore, the "Linux-based" PDAs have generally had _horrible_
interoperability with Linux, because the vendors didn't have enough
known Linux-based customers to _truly_ care about having Linux-based
sync/'desktop' apps.

One nice thing about the Zaurus is you can run VNC on it. Then use your
desktop's monitor, keyboard and mouse to interact. In a sense, it would
LOOK as if your addresses, to-do list, etc. were all on your desktop,
but they're simply being 'served' (so to speak) off the Zaurus.

I'm sure any other Linux PDA capable of exporting its display (X11, Qtopia,
etc.) could do the same. (I exported X off my Agenda VR3 when I was writing
games for it, for example.)
-bill!
bi**@newbreedsoftware.com Man, some trip this turned out to be.
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ All we caught is a tire, a boot,
New Breed Software a tin can and this book of cliches.

[filesiteguy]

William Kendrick scratched out in the sand

In comp.sys.palmtops filesiteguy <ab***@127.0.0.1> wrote:

1. DirecTV has a Tivo-like thing that does HDTV and runs Linux (don't
know which distro).

TiVo has a TiVo-like thing that runs Linux, too. It's called a TiVo. ;^)
(In case anyone out there didn't know that yet)

Actually no I didn't. I have one sitting in a box right next to me. I need
to get ahold of DTV so I can finally get rid of E* after three years. :)
--
kai - kai at 3gproductions dot com
www.gamephreakz.com || www.filesite.org
"friends don't let friends use windows xp"

[Russell]

Yep, been in the industry for nigh on four decades now. I remember when:
1) It wasn't normal for computers to crash regularly and any that did
were fixed promptly or scrapped.
2) It wasn't normal for an application failure to lock up the system
forcing a reboot.
3) It wasn't normal for operating system bugs to require reinstallation
of all applications.
4) Backups were necessary to protect from hardware crashes or human
error; not because of unstable operating systems.
5) Some of that old iron would run for years without even a warm restart.
6) Some would even allow hardware and software maintenance and upgrades
without being shut down.

Christopher Browne wrote:

In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, Russell <ru*****@mitre.org> transmitted:

------------------CUT-------------

bootstrapped, but beyond that point, some of the "user expectations"
WAY greater than are the case for (for instance) Windows. I routinely
expect uptimes, for instance, that some versions of Windows could
never actually achieve.

If it's crap, I sure won't be paying for it...

[Kevin Thorpe]

> 4) Backups were necessary to protect from hardware crashes or human

error; not because of unstable operating systems.
5) Some of that old iron would run for years without even a warm restart.
6) Some would even allow hardware and software maintenance and upgrades
without being shut down.

Our Linux server had an uptime of almost three years (it's internal a
very small company so security is a non-issue). I royally screwed up our
Linux server with a badly thought out upgrade installation. A quick trip
to single mode, restore off the tape and back to full operation and I
still haven't had to reboot it.

That's the way things are supposed to be.

[I live on Outlook]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:27:42 -0700, filesiteguy <ab***@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

On 8 Sep 2004 21:35:06 -0700, jo************@yahoo.com (Ranger West)
pecked out:

What would be the best way to build a Linux-powered ipod-like device?
Can this be done with off-the-shelf hardware?

Build one.

Where do I get the parts?

[Yeechang Lee]

Christopher Browne wrote:

I would suggest taking a look at the article "The Hard Way / How Not
to Build a Linux PDA"
<http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-05/hard_01.html> written by someone
involved heavily with the Zaurus efforts, which have essentially
failed.
Almost two years ago I posted on why I hadn't yet bought a Zaurus
(<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnb2u470.ugk.ylee%40pobox.com>).
Sadly, every reason still holds in late 2004, including the advantages
a truly-usable Linux PDA that also filled my needs would have.

I've owned a Sony Clié UX50 for a year. I thought hard about buying a
Zaurus C760 instead, but am glad I didn't take the plunge.
I can sync the main apps against JPilot, as well as GNU Keyring, and
can happily use either Palm or JPilot GUI to control them.
[...]
_None_ of the "Linux-based" PDAs have provide the equivalent
functionality of:
- Syncing against a 'desktop' for calendar/todo/address/notes

Amen. While I respect the fact that not everyone needs synching (I was
like that as a student), those of us who need synching need it
*badly*.

--
Yes, I'm to blame for comp.sys.palmtops.pilot instead of .palm or .palmos.