what's the best way to develop PHP apps ?

[Michael]

I'm new to PHP, I already learned the basics of the language and built
some little app's for practice.
I have a critical dilemma, soon enough, I probably start to develop
real-world applications, fully working web-sites for paying
costumers.
I have 2 options for doing this: writing everything with plain PHP, or
using some PHP framework.
I don't want to choose something and the realize that the other is
batter.
I want to get used for one of this 2 programming techniques and stick
with it with no regrets in the future.

please try to help me here, I'm searching the web for 3 days but can't
find a decent answer, many programmers started with plain PHP then
wanted to try some framework but realized that changing all the apps
they have been building would be a pain -so they stick with the
plain php and maybe some template engine [ie- Smarty]. thats not my
situation because I'm new to the language, I really want to do the
best move at the beginning.

Have a good day ;-)

[Rik]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:03:37 +0200, Michael <xm********@gmail.comwrote:

I'm new to PHP, I already learned the basics of the language and built
some little app's for practice.
I have a critical dilemma, soon enough, I probably start to develop
real-world applications, fully working web-sites for paying
costumers.
I have 2 options for doing this: writing everything with plain PHP, or
using some PHP framework.
I don't want to choose something and the realize that the other is
batter.
I want to get used for one of this 2 programming techniques and stick
with it with no regrets in the future.

please try to help me here, I'm searching the web for 3 days but can't
find a decent answer, many programmers started with plain PHP then
wanted to try some framework but realized that changing all the apps
they have been building would be a pain -so they stick with the
plain php and maybe some template engine [ie- Smarty]. thats not my
situation because I'm new to the language, I really want to do the
best move at the beginning.

There's no single answer, all depends on what it is exactly that you're
making. If you're a starter, changes are your projects aren't going to be
that big and complicated in the beginning. In those cases, using a
framework is usually overkill, and the project is better served with
'plain' PHP coding. Bigger projects later on might well benefit from a
framework, certainly if there's more then one coder involved, but which is
entirely dependant on the project itself.
--
Rik Wasmus

[AK_Matt_B]

On Jul 16, 11:30 am, Rik <[e-mail]:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:03:37 +0200, Michael <[e-mail]:

I'm new to PHP, I already learned the basics of the language and built
some little app's for practice.
I have a critical dilemma, soon enough, I probably start to develop
real-world applications, fully working web-sites for paying
costumers.
I have 2 options for doing this: writing everything with plain PHP, or
using some PHP framework.
I don't want to choose something and the realize that the other is
batter.
I want to get used for one of this 2 programming techniques and stick
with it with no regrets in the future.

please try to help me here, I'm searching the web for 3 days but can't
find a decent answer, many programmers started with plain PHP then
wanted to try some framework but realized that changing all the apps
they have been building would be a pain -so they stick with the
plain php and maybe some template engine [ie- Smarty]. thats not my
situation because I'm new to the language, I really want to do the
best move at the beginning.

There's no single answer, all depends on what it is exactly that you're
making. If you're a starter, changes are your projects aren't going to be
that big and complicated in the beginning. In those cases, using a
framework is usually overkill, and the project is better served with
'plain' PHP coding. Bigger projects later on might well benefit from a
framework, certainly if there's more then one coder involved, but which is
entirely dependant on the project itself.

--
Rik Wasmus- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the difference between framework development and plain?
Very informative response thanks!

Matt

[Michael]

maybe someone can answer my simple questions..?
you have experienc, please share your thoughts.
I can't believe you have nothing to say about this issue.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Michael wrote:

maybe someone can answer my simple questions..?
you have experienc, please share your thoughts.
I can't believe you have nothing to say about this issue.

Rik's response is right on.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[larry]

On Jul 17, 3:46 am, Michael <[e-mail]:

maybe someone can answer my simple questions..?
you have experienc, please share your thoughts.
I can't believe you have nothing to say about this issue.

Frameworks are like applications - some are a perfect fit and some may
not quite fit. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish with
your code is probably the best meter for determining if a framework is
for you. Look at your challenges in your planned project(s) are there
things that are not easily overcome by already written frameworks?

Most folk who go their own route end up with a framework of their own
design partly because some of us like re-inventing the wheel and the
other because there is just some concept of feature that has yet to be
made into a framework and would be hard to get in one already in
progress.

My suggestion is to first see if there are things that you think
frameworks can't help you with and ask or search what is available to
see if there are. Next is to install and try one or two that look
promising. We can review frameworks all day but the proof is in how
they work for you, which may not match our preferences or what we
think is useless may be perfect for you.

So to sum it up, stop reading about it all and start building your own
experience. :-)

[Michael]

Rik's response is right on.

I didn't ask for the definition of the term framework.
I just ask for a good advice from juys that actually have been working
professionally with PHP, I just want to know what they are thinking
about PHP frameworks
as a new programmer, should I or shouldn't I use some PHP framework?
if the answer is yes - maybe you can give some recommendetions
if the answer is no - please give more details why not and try to
explain what's the best way to stuff with PHP.
thats all I'm asking. good advice from experienced guys.

[Chung Leong]

On Jul 16, 9:03 pm, Michael <[e-mail]:

I'm new to PHP, I already learned the basics of the language and built
some little app's for practice.
I have a critical dilemma, soon enough, I probably start to develop
real-world applications, fully working web-sites for paying
costumers.
I have 2 options for doing this: writing everything with plain PHP, or
using some PHP framework.
I don't want to choose something and the realize that the other is
batter.
I want to get used for one of this 2 programming techniques and stick
with it with no regrets in the future.

please try to help me here, I'm searching the web for 3 days but can't
find a decent answer, many programmers started with plain PHP then
wanted to try some framework but realized that changing all the apps
they have been building would be a pain -so they stick with the
plain php and maybe some template engine [ie- Smarty]. thats not my
situation because I'm new to the language, I really want to do the
best move at the beginning.

Have a good day ;-)

Using a framework for PHP development is like imposing a democratic
framework on Iraq: it's a slam dunk every time.

[Tim Roberts]

Chung Leong <ch***********@hotmail.comwrote:

>
Using a framework for PHP development is like imposing a democratic
framework on Iraq: it's a slam dunk every time.

I'm sure this was meant to be clever, but it doesn't pay to be too clever.
I can't tell whether you are trying to say that it is a good idea ("slam
dunk") or a bad idea (analogy to Iraq war) to use a framework for PHP.
--
Tim Roberts, ti**@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

[Manny]

Michael,

With the advent of OOP there are certain models of interaction that
real-world object's employ in their day to day relationships that can
be used in the world of Programming. This is termed "Design Patterns"
in the world of programming and cursory search on Google will render
with enough information to get you started. Just to demonstrate, there
is one particular "pattern" that is defined as the MVC (Model, View,
Controller) pattern.

Within this pattern there are three necessary components to create a
reusable framework. The Model is a series of objects that are used to
model the data that are encountered. The View is the object that is
responsible for displaying the necessary information to the end user.
The Controller, is the object that houses that business logic and is
responsible for providing cohesion between the Model and the View. The
Controller essentially takes the Model into consideration and then
appropriately displays a representation of that state.

The MVC pattern, in my humble opinion is best suited for a framework.
However, there is litany of patterns available that are available for
use, not always in the context of a framework, but available to
simplify the complexity of programming.

I hope this short tutorial helps. Go ahead and browse Google.

-Manny

[noidtluom]

On Jul 17, 9:43 am, [e-mail] wrote:

On Jul 17, 3:46 am, Michael <[e-mail]:

maybe someone can answer my simple questions..?
you have experienc, please share your thoughts.
I can't believe you have nothing to say about this issue.

Frameworks are like applications - some are a perfect fit and some may
not quite fit. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish with
your code is probably the best meter for determining if a framework is
for you. Look at your challenges in your planned project(s) are there
things that are not easily overcome by already written frameworks?

Most folk who go their own route end up with a framework of their own
design partly because some of us like re-inventing the wheel and the
other because there is just some concept of feature that has yet to be
made into a framework and would be hard to get in one already in
progress.

My suggestion is to first see if there are things that you think
frameworks can't help you with and ask or search what is available to
see if there are. Next is to install and try one or two that look
promising. We can review frameworks all day but the proof is in how
they work for you, which may not match our preferences or what we
think is useless may be perfect for you.

So to sum it up, stop reading about it all and start building your own
experience. :-)

for me it'll depend also on what types of scripts you want to make, if
you want to release some small ones such as snippets, just continue on
plain php, but if you want to make something like your own php system,
and then create modules...yeah, framework.

[NC]

On Jul 16, 12:03 pm, Michael <[e-mail]:

>
I have a critical dilemma, soon enough, I probably
start to develop real-world applications, fully working
web-sites for paying costumers.
I have 2 options for doing this: writing everything with
plain PHP, or using some PHP framework.

You actually have the third option: implementing (and, if necessary,
extending) an off-the-shelf application (Drupal, phpBB, vBulletin,
WordPress, etc.)

I want to get used for one of this 2 programming techniques
and stick with it with no regrets in the future.

Not gonna happen. There is no silver bullet. No single approach can
fit every situation. If you need to develop fast, you should use
frameworks (in the extreme, if you need to develop VERY fast, you
should implement an off-the-shelf product as the first release and
extend it going forward). If you need to write high-performance code,
you should stay away from frameworks.

Cheers,
NC