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is sql just for hobbiest?

P: n/a
guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

tnx

May 18 '07 #1
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21 Replies


P: n/a
Message-ID: <11**********************@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups .comfrom
shotokan99 contained the following:
>guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?
I think the quality of the programming is much more important.
Accountants and company directors, on the other hand, cannot perceive
how something which is free can be as good, if not better than something
that is paid for. So often the choice may be a political arse/ass
covering exercise rather than for any practical consideration.

YMMV

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
May 18 '07 #2

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shotokan99 wrote:
guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

tnx
I would use PHP over asp.net any day.

I still have to maintain some ASP sites. I think one of them has
finally seen the light of day and is going to pay for a complete
makeover - in PHP (the external "look and feel" will change, also). And
then they won't be restricted to running on Windows and IIS.

And Java is a great language, but very overblown for simple
applications. It has a lot of strengths and can easily do more complex
things like running java beans on other servers. However, most websites
don't need these advanced features, so you get more overhead than with
PHP and things run more slowly.

And if PHP were "just for hobbiests", why are there so many big hosting
companies offering PHP, and so many sites using PHP (including some
major companies)? And why are there so few (in comparison) hosting
companies who provide Java? And of course only Windows hosts provide
ASP of any variety.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
May 18 '07 #3

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At Fri, 18 May 2007 02:28:44 -0700, shotokan99 let his monkeys type:
guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

tnx
Ask here and you'll hear: no.
Ask in a Java group and you'll hear: yes.
Ask in a asp.net group and you'll hear: definitely!

About every argument this group can give you why PHP is a good choice
you'll get for the alternatives in their respective groups, and for those
they can't counter they'll have several other arguments 'we' can't argue
with.

Opinion articles pro and con each also exist in about equal amounts I'd
guess.

In the end it's just a choice you or your customer/employer will have to
make. Select the information sources that support your own preference if
you have to convince someone else.

The fact I'd choose PHP over Java and ASP.net every day and twice on
Sundays isn't likely gonna help you much I am afraid.

Sh.


May 18 '07 #4

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shotokan99 wrote:
however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.
Yahoo is also close to 100% PHP, and that doesn't seem to be holding it
back.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux
May 18 '07 #5

P: n/a
On May 18, 5:28 am, shotokan99 <soft_devj...@yahoo.comwrote:
guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

tnx
Ummm.. so like, why would you ask this in comp.lang.php? Were you
unable to predict what language choice a group of programmers would
advise in a usenet group FOR that group of programmers? Like going to
a Java convention and asking, "hey guys, does Java suck?" lol.

PHP has some criticism about namespace support and multiple-
inheritance in its OOP implementation, etc. But the best response I've
heard is that we don't WANT php to be Java. If you want Java, go use
Java. PHP's strength is agility. It can, and has, been used in my
enterprise/mission-critical deployments. In my opinion, it is better
suited for these environments than Java. ASP.NET is great if you want
to suck Microsoft's tit for the lifetime of the project and empty your
wallet.

May 18 '07 #6

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On Fri, 18 May 2007 02:28:44 -0700, shotokan99 wrote:
i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?
Where did you read this... on Microsoft's website?

May 18 '07 #7

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On Fri, 18 May 2007 10:56:23 -0700, Ted wrote:
On 18 May 2007 02:28:44 -0700, shotokan99 wrote...
>>
i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.
Outside of performance there's probably concerns about security and
liability. It may be tough to justify using free software to a Fortune
500 company when they're responsible for securing data and controlling
what has access to it. If they use commercial software at least they
have a target if something goes wrong. Not to saying there's anything
wrong with PHP, but may be tougher to make it a standard in larger
companies.
Better read your license agreement. There is no liability for software
failure. You cannot sue Microsoft (for instance) for a bug in their
software.
May 18 '07 #8

P: n/a
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
shotokan99 wrote:
however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

Yahoo is also close to 100% PHP, and that doesn't seem to be holding it
back.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux
Toby,

Do you have any sort of reference for this claim?

Carl.
May 18 '07 #9

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"ri**********@gmail.com" <ri**********@gmail.comwrites:
On May 18, 5:28 am, shotokan99 <soft_devj...@yahoo.comwrote:
guys,

i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

however if talking about robustnes and bulk of data, friendster is
written on php and doing well. correct me if im wrong with this.

tnx

Ummm.. so like, why would you ask this in comp.lang.php? Were you
unable to predict what language choice a group of programmers would
advise in a usenet group FOR that group of programmers? Like going to
a Java convention and asking, "hey guys, does Java suck?" lol.

PHP has some criticism about namespace support and multiple-
inheritance in its OOP implementation, etc. But the best response I've
heard is that we don't WANT php to be Java. If you want Java, go use
Java. PHP's strength is agility. It can, and has, been used in my
enterprise/mission-critical deployments. In my opinion, it is better
suited for these environments than Java.
Ricky,

Just out of curiosity, why would you consider PHP better than Java for
"enterprise/mission-critical" deployments?

Carl.
ASP.NET is great if you want
to suck Microsoft's tit for the lifetime of the project and empty your
wallet.
May 18 '07 #10

P: n/a
Carl wrote:
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
>Yahoo is also close to 100% PHP, and that doesn't seem to be holding it
back.

Do you have any sort of reference for this claim?
That Yahoo is powered by PHP, or that it's a successful website?

Yahoo powered by PHP:
http://developers.slashdot.org/artic.../10/29/2052239
http://www.radwin.org/michael/blog/2...entation_.html
http://lerdorf.com/resume/

Yahoo successful:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/tr.../www.yahoo.com
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=YHOO

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux
May 19 '07 #11

P: n/a
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
Carl wrote:
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
Yahoo is also close to 100% PHP, and that doesn't seem to be holding it
back.
Do you have any sort of reference for this claim?

That Yahoo is powered by PHP, or that it's a successful website?
More specifically, that Yahoo! is "close to 100%" PHP. I've read this
comment before, but have yet to see any specific reference. I realize
they have been using it; my question is to what extent.
>
Yahoo powered by PHP:
http://developers.slashdot.org/artic.../10/29/2052239
This article is from 2002, and states that Yahoo! plans to move to PHP.
http://www.radwin.org/michael/blog/2...entation_.html
Nice little powerpoint showing a high level overview of Yahoo! using
php, but little detail on _how_and_where_ they are using it.
Mention of "C/C++ Core Code" still present (2005).
http://lerdorf.com/resume/
Rasmus Lerdorf works at php? Well then... (?)
>
Yahoo successful:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/tr.../www.yahoo.com
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=YHOO
I really can't see how you might have misunderstood my comment
as somehow questioning the success of Yahoo!? Unless this was a
joke, you may want to look over my response again.

I've honestly simply been curious as to the success of the
migration Yahoo! had announced back in '02.

Carl.

May 19 '07 #12

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actually im new to php. so im reading if how far it goes and if it
will keep going, considering the advent of .net, ajax, c#,j2ee...etc.
if i stay faithfull to php, will there always be a place in web php?

May 19 '07 #13

P: n/a
"shotokan99" wrote...
: actually im new to php. so im reading if how far it goes and if it
: will keep going, considering the advent of .net, ajax, c#,j2ee...
: etc. if i stay faithfull to php, will there always be a place in web
: php?

"shotokan99" asked...
: i read in some forums that php is just for hobbiest, and is not suited
: for some serius and heavy application. for robust and hi performance
: application asp.net or jsp is the way to go. how true is this?

For PHP see these sites:
http://www.sourceforge.net/
http://www.php.net/
http://www.zend.com/
http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/
http://www.spjc.edu/
http://www.fiu.com/ (http://alumnichapters.fiu.edu/chapter_detail.php)
http://www.aquaticcreationsnc.com/
http://www.nytimes.com/ (Job Search page: http://jobs.nytimes.com/js.php)
http://forums.wsj.com/viewtopic.php?t=33 (Wall Street Journal)
This one is interesting... http://ali.apple.com/ali_sites/ali/li.php
http://education.apple.com/education...p?subject_id=2
http://www.databasejournal.com/
http://www.mysql.com/
http://www.geektools.com/whois.php
Many educational institutions run a combination of PHP and/or
Perl. The most prestigious educational institutions in the world
run PHP... Some seem to employ ColdFusion (.cfm).

http://mitworld.mit.edu/index.php (Massachusetts Institute Of Technology)
http://www.neuron.yale.edu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2941 (Yale)
http://www.ouds.org/ (Oxford University Dramatic Society)
http://oxlad.qeh.ox.ac.uk/sources.php (Oxford University, U.K.)
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download.php (University of Berkeley, California)
For .aspx (IIS6) see...
http://www.microsoft.com/
http://www.dell.com/
http://www.paypal.com/
For .asp (IIS5 - .asp extesntion on pages) see...
http://www.rentacoder.com/
http://www.ebay.com/
For Perl (modperl - list from http://perl.apache.org/)...
http://www.pbs.org/
http://www.imdb.com/
It appears Microsoft finally enhanced their web content delivery.
They had problems last year where many pages took forever to
get to the client browser (and "often" never made it - the browser
timed out). They've been on IIS 6 for about 3 years now.

Bewary... the information above may not be 100% accurate.

Apache servers make it very easy to configure .cfm files for any
type of processing, i.e. the PHP server could be configured to
process any extension, Perl could be configured to processed
any extension.

http://www.netcraft.com/ often delivers wrong server details.
They falsely report the wrong number of Windows 2003 servers.
Where they get that bogus information no one knows.

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to the group.
May 19 '07 #14

P: n/a
Carl kirjoitti:
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
>http://lerdorf.com/resume/

Rasmus Lerdorf works at php? Well then... (?)
Works? He _invented_ php! He's the Official King and Queen of Php.

--
Ra*********@gmail.com

"Wikipedia on vhn niinq internetin raamattu, kukaan ei pohjimmiltaan
usko siihen ja kukaan ei tied mik pit paikkansa." -- z00ze
May 19 '07 #15

P: n/a
At Sat, 19 May 2007 00:20:33 -0400, Jim Carlock let his monkeys type:

http://www.netcraft.com/ often delivers wrong server details.
They falsely report the wrong number of Windows 2003 servers.
Where they get that bogus information no one knows.
While I am a sucker for everything debunking any microsoft myth, I am
curious how you come to the conclusion netcraft uses false data.
Do you have more correct data (sources) underpinning your theory?
Is there a financial link between netcraft and ms I missed btw?

Best!
Sh.

May 19 '07 #16

P: n/a
shotokan99 wrote:
actually im new to php. so im reading if how far it goes and if it
will keep going, considering the advent of .net, ajax, c#,j2ee...etc.
if i stay faithfull to php, will there always be a place in web php?
In 40-50 years or so, it's unlikely that *any* of them will still be
commonly used.

How many languages from the 1950s and 1960s are still in use? Take a look
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ming_languages -- how
many of those names do you even recognise? How many are still in common
use? I'd say just two from each decade: FORTRAN, LISP, BASIC and LOGO.

The languages you mention (C#, Java, Javascript and PHP) were all
developed in the last 15 years.

In 50 years time, a handful of today's programming languages will probably
still be in common use, but it's unlikely to be the ones we expect. Don't
expect learning a single language to set you up for a life of programming
employment. You've got to keep learning new languages and techniques.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux
May 19 '07 #17

P: n/a
Toby A Inkster kirjoitti:
shotokan99 wrote:
>actually im new to php. so im reading if how far it goes and if it
will keep going, considering the advent of .net, ajax, c#,j2ee...etc.
if i stay faithfull to php, will there always be a place in web php?

In 40-50 years or so, it's unlikely that *any* of them will still be
commonly used.

How many languages from the 1950s and 1960s are still in use? Take a look
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ming_languages -- how
many of those names do you even recognise? How many are still in common
use? I'd say just two from each decade: FORTRAN, LISP, BASIC and LOGO.

The languages you mention (C#, Java, Javascript and PHP) were all
developed in the last 15 years.

In 50 years time, a handful of today's programming languages will probably
still be in common use, but it's unlikely to be the ones we expect. Don't
expect learning a single language to set you up for a life of programming
employment. You've got to keep learning new languages and techniques.
This raises an interesting question though. Going a bit off-topic now,
but I've been wondering if I should start training another language now.
Over the years I've advanced from C to C++ to Java (plus a little
assembly) and now I somehow ended up in doing php for a living. It's
occupying me now, but in 5-10 years maybe not, there might be a new
language behind the horizon that will be the new trend. Just to keep
myself busy I actually tried Ruby the other day (or in fact, Ruby on
Rails) for fun and managed to "hello world", and when I have plenty of
time I will try it out more. I'm just thinking that the era of php will
eventually die, and if I don't become a Pointy-Haired Boss by the time,
I need to know the new language, so what should I be looking at? No one
can predict the future, but are there any hot new languages on the rise
that might be worthy of knowing...?

--
Ra*********@gmail.com

"Wikipedia on vähän niinq internetin raamattu, kukaan ei pohjimmiltaan
usko siihen ja kukaan ei tiedä mikä pitää paikkansa." -- z00ze
May 19 '07 #18

P: n/a
Toby A Inkster wrote:
shotokan99 wrote:
>actually im new to php. so im reading if how far it goes and if it
will keep going, considering the advent of .net, ajax, c#,j2ee...etc.
if i stay faithfull to php, will there always be a place in web php?

In 40-50 years or so, it's unlikely that *any* of them will still be
commonly used.

How many languages from the 1950s and 1960s are still in use? Take a look
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ming_languages -- how
many of those names do you even recognise? How many are still in common
use? I'd say just two from each decade: FORTRAN, LISP, BASIC and LOGO.
FORTRAN, COBOL, 360 Assembler - to name the three biggest ones I saw
back in the late 60's. And COBOL is still the most prevalent language
in the world - mainly because of the hundreds of millions of lines of
code which have been written (and must be maintained).

LISP, BASIC and LOGO were not available at that time.
The languages you mention (C#, Java, Javascript and PHP) were all
developed in the last 15 years.

In 50 years time, a handful of today's programming languages will probably
still be in common use, but it's unlikely to be the ones we expect. Don't
expect learning a single language to set you up for a life of programming
employment. You've got to keep learning new languages and techniques.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
May 20 '07 #19

P: n/a
At Sat, 19 May 2007 20:20:04 +0300, Rami Elomaa let his monkeys type:
Toby A Inkster kirjoitti:
>>
In 50 years time, a handful of today's programming languages will probably
still be in common use, but it's unlikely to be the ones we expect. Don't
expect learning a single language to set you up for a life of programming
employment. You've got to keep learning new languages and techniques.

This raises an interesting question though. Going a bit off-topic now,
but I've been wondering if I should start training another language now.
Over the years I've advanced from C to C++ to Java (plus a little
assembly) and now I somehow ended up in doing php for a living. It's
occupying me now, but in 5-10 years maybe not, there might be a new
language behind the horizon that will be the new trend. Just to keep
myself busy I actually tried Ruby the other day (or in fact, Ruby on
Rails) for fun and managed to "hello world", and when I have plenty of
time I will try it out more. I'm just thinking that the era of php will
eventually die, and if I don't become a Pointy-Haired Boss by the time,
I need to know the new language, so what should I be looking at? No one
can predict the future, but are there any hot new languages on the rise
that might be worthy of knowing...?
Trying to guess what will become tomorrow's best bet is a rather difficult
and expensive exercise: As long as today's top choices still grow in
popularity I'd spend my time investing in those rather than worry about
the mid-term future. Some of the language fads die out long before they
have become widely used in production, and some non-promising languages
have become incredibly popular. A lot of variables beyond our
control influence this process.

Much more interesting -and often hardly language dependent- is trying to
keep up with the programming concepts in fashion. OOP, MVC, AJAX etc.
Not that you should immediately adopt every new kid on the block. But
knowing what's available helps making the right choices faced with a
new assignment.

If you have a proper programming skill set and enough experience, adopting
a new dialect probably won't be the highest hurdle you'll ever face.

Sh.
May 20 '07 #20

P: n/a
Rami Elomaa <ra*********@gmail.comwrites:
Carl kirjoitti:
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
http://lerdorf.com/resume/
Rasmus Lerdorf works at php? Well then... (?)

Works? He _invented_ php! He's the Official King and Queen of Php.
Toby,

Sorry, that was a typo and I meant to say "works at Yahoo!".
I am well aware that Rasus Lerdorf wrote the earliest versions
of "Personal Home Page Tools" then PHP/FI, which would become
the PHP we know today.

Carl.

May 21 '07 #21

P: n/a
Rami Elomaa <ra*********@gmail.comwrites:
Carl kirjoitti:
Toby A Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.ukwrites:
http://lerdorf.com/resume/
Rasmus Lerdorf works at php? Well then... (?)

Works? He _invented_ php! He's the Official King and Queen of Php.
(I apologize to Toby for incorrectly attributing this post and
my reply to him, corrected below.)

Rami,

Sorry, that was a typo and I meant to say "works at Yahoo!".
I am well aware that Rasus Lerdorf wrote the earliest versions
of "Personal Home Page Tools" then PHP/FI, which would become
the PHP we know today.

Carl.
May 21 '07 #22

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