Php / Java grids .NET grids

[Ben]

General question for the group. I have a friend who claims that PHP/Java
grids can't touch .NET with respect to dev time, reliability and speed. I'm
not in a position to debate but would like to know the thoughts given the
following requirements:

- Grid will handle 1,000 row, 25 columns record sets on a regular basis

- Multiple users hitting same data set so automatic refreshes will need to
occur frequently, 10 second intervals for example, and a clean/fast repaint
is key.

- Maybe of less significance but drag n drop is required.

Don't want to debate the requirements themselves, they are what they are.
But if you had to choose PHP/Java vs .NET (ASP/VB) to develop said grid,
which is "better" and why? The back end DB for both scenarios will be
either SQL, MySQL or Oracle, client choice and don't want to debate offering
a choice of the DB solutions either please.

TYIA for any thoughts.

=B

[shimmyshack]

On Mar 30, 5:43 pm, "Ben" <[e-mail]:

General question for the group. I have a friend who claims that PHP/Java
grids can't touch .NET with respect to dev time, reliability and speed. I'm
not in a position to debate but would like to know the thoughts given the
following requirements:

- Grid will handle 1,000 row, 25 columns record sets on a regular basis

- Multiple users hitting same data set so automatic refreshes will need to
occur frequently, 10 second intervals for example, and a clean/fast repaint
is key.

- Maybe of less significance but drag n drop is required.

Don't want to debate the requirements themselves, they are what they are.
But if you had to choose PHP/Java vs .NET (ASP/VB) to develop said grid,
which is "better" and why? The back end DB for both scenarios will be
either SQL, MySQL or Oracle, client choice and don't want to debate offering
a choice of the DB solutions either please.

TYIA for any thoughts.

=B

What you are /really/ asking is whether php can provide fast access to
the database. The rest of it, the grid (html table markup) repainting
(rendering) drag and drop (javascript) mtuliple users (server) doesn't
have much to do with php.
But you should know IIRC php offloads its maths and various other
things onto native C libraries, so I can't see that .NET will have any
improvement whatsoever it the speed of execution. (.NET surely
compiles to byte code which is then executed in M$'s runtime env)
As to the rest, the only thing which you have control over are the
server and javascript, chances are the opensource libraries for drag
drop and other functionality will be WAY better than anything M$ can
possibly offer. It, as a company has a woeful record of client jscript
- even the postback was broken for ages!) it is slow to respond to
obvious advances, whereas opencourse can be tweaked and improved daily
and frequently is, so you can pair your library right down and if all
you need is drag and drop you can optimise it for that.
As for server setup, I guess you are talking php on IIS, so fast_cgi
benchmarks are what you want, I read somewhere that this compares very
well.
But this will always come down to opinion, he has never used a well
setup Linux version probably, and doesnt understand the underlying
technologies well enough to be the judge of any of this. He is just
religious about .NET because he knows he can "drag and drop" forms and
so on, and "ajaxify" his code with a few clicks, great - his focus is
on speedy coding so he can spend his big bucks on a new gadget, and
let someone else worry about matters of security and professionalism,
and tight code. Not my persaonl idea of what a professional programmer
should be.

[Ben]

"shimmyshack" <ma********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...

On Mar 30, 5:43 pm, "Ben" <[e-mail]:

>General question for the group. I have a friend who claims that PHP/Java
grids can't touch .NET with respect to dev time, reliability and speed.
I'm
not in a position to debate but would like to know the thoughts given the
following requirements:

- Grid will handle 1,000 row, 25 columns record sets on a regular basis

- Multiple users hitting same data set so automatic refreshes will need
to
occur frequently, 10 second intervals for example, and a clean/fast
repaint
is key.

- Maybe of less significance but drag n drop is required.

Don't want to debate the requirements themselves, they are what they are.
But if you had to choose PHP/Java vs .NET (ASP/VB) to develop said grid,
which is "better" and why? The back end DB for both scenarios will be
either SQL, MySQL or Oracle, client choice and don't want to debate
offering
a choice of the DB solutions either please.

TYIA for any thoughts.

=B

What you are /really/ asking is whether php can provide fast access to
the database. The rest of it, the grid (html table markup) repainting
(rendering) drag and drop (javascript) mtuliple users (server) doesn't
have much to do with php.
But you should know IIRC php offloads its maths and various other
things onto native C libraries, so I can't see that .NET will have any
improvement whatsoever it the speed of execution. (.NET surely
compiles to byte code which is then executed in M$'s runtime env)
As to the rest, the only thing which you have control over are the
server and javascript, chances are the opensource libraries for drag
drop and other functionality will be WAY better than anything M$ can
possibly offer. It, as a company has a woeful record of client jscript
- even the postback was broken for ages!) it is slow to respond to
obvious advances, whereas opencourse can be tweaked and improved daily
and frequently is, so you can pair your library right down and if all
you need is drag and drop you can optimise it for that.
As for server setup, I guess you are talking php on IIS, so fast_cgi
benchmarks are what you want, I read somewhere that this compares very
well.
But this will always come down to opinion, he has never used a well
setup Linux version probably, and doesnt understand the underlying
technologies well enough to be the judge of any of this. He is just
religious about .NET because he knows he can "drag and drop" forms and
so on, and "ajaxify" his code with a few clicks, great - his focus is
on speedy coding so he can spend his big bucks on a new gadget, and
let someone else worry about matters of security and professionalism,
and tight code. Not my persaonl idea of what a professional programmer
should be.

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

As previously posted I'm a noob to web apps but do have 17 years experience
coding, from PAL, Clipper/Xbase and VFP with some mapping sprinkled in for
good measure. My primary VFP app is basically a html string generator from
very diverse data sources ranging from Unix/Ingress, DbaseIII to SQL. VFP
is the data engine and parses data and writes strings at supersonic speeds.
So for a "no interaction" web pages generator it was smokin. All output is
to *tight* html files (generated by optimized code not report writer) strung
together to create a web-report archive and (dont laugh) all from funcs I
developed that are fast fast fast.....but the day has come for a true
interactive web app which requires me to go outside my little box and dive
in. I like PHP, the PHP community, have followed for years but no time to
jump in....and from a business perspective, M$ has no cost benefit that I
can see. Maybe faster dev of half-assed apps but when you look at total
cost....no brainer I think.

Anyway, thanks again.

=B

[shimmyshack]

On Mar 30, 7:41 pm, "Ben" <[e-mail]:

"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message

news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...

On Mar 30, 5:43 pm, "Ben" <[e-mail]:

General question for the group. I have a friend who claims that PHP/Java
grids can't touch .NET with respect to dev time, reliability and speed.
I'm
not in a position to debate but would like to know the thoughts given the
following requirements:

- Grid will handle 1,000 row, 25 columns record sets on a regular basis

- Multiple users hitting same data set so automatic refreshes will need
to
occur frequently, 10 second intervals for example, and a clean/fast
repaint
is key.

- Maybe of less significance but drag n drop is required.

Don't want to debate the requirements themselves, they are what they are.
But if you had to choose PHP/Java vs .NET (ASP/VB) to develop said grid,
which is "better" and why? The back end DB for both scenarios will be
either SQL, MySQL or Oracle, client choice and don't want to debate
offering
a choice of the DB solutions either please.

TYIA for any thoughts.

=B

What you are /really/ asking is whether php can provide fast access to
the database. The rest of it, the grid (html table markup) repainting
(rendering) drag and drop (javascript) mtuliple users (server) doesn't
have much to do with php.
But you should know IIRC php offloads its maths and various other
things onto native C libraries, so I can't see that .NET will have any
improvement whatsoever it the speed of execution. (.NET surely
compiles to byte code which is then executed in M$'s runtime env)
As to the rest, the only thing which you have control over are the
server and javascript, chances are the opensource libraries for drag
drop and other functionality will be WAY better than anything M$ can
possibly offer. It, as a company has a woeful record of client jscript
- even the postback was broken for ages!) it is slow to respond to
obvious advances, whereas opencourse can be tweaked and improved daily
and frequently is, so you can pair your library right down and if all
you need is drag and drop you can optimise it for that.
As for server setup, I guess you are talking php on IIS, so fast_cgi
benchmarks are what you want, I read somewhere that this compares very
well.
But this will always come down to opinion, he has never used a well
setup Linux version probably, and doesnt understand the underlying
technologies well enough to be the judge of any of this. He is just
religious about .NET because he knows he can "drag and drop" forms and
so on, and "ajaxify" his code with a few clicks, great - his focus is
on speedy coding so he can spend his big bucks on a new gadget, and
let someone else worry about matters of security and professionalism,
and tight code. Not my persaonl idea of what a professional programmer
should be.

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

As previously posted I'm a noob to web apps but do have 17 years experience
coding, from PAL, Clipper/Xbase and VFP with some mapping sprinkled in for
good measure. My primary VFP app is basically a html string generator from
very diverse data sources ranging from Unix/Ingress, DbaseIII to SQL. VFP
is the data engine and parses data and writes strings at supersonic speeds.
So for a "no interaction" web pages generator it was smokin. All output is
to *tight* html files (generated by optimized code not report writer) strung
together to create a web-report archive and (dont laugh) all from funcs I
developed that are fast fast fast.....but the day has come for a true
interactive web app which requires me to go outside my little box and dive
in. I like PHP, the PHP community, have followed for years but no time to
jump in....and from a business perspective, M$ has no cost benefit that I
can see. Maybe faster dev of half-assed apps but when you look at total
cost....no brainer I think.

Anyway, thanks again.

=B

--pre-emptive apology for off topic rant.

my personal feeling about all this: someone sat down and thought "hey
I want money for all this damn programming... hmm marketing
works...look how big my company is getting, no need for standards when
you have dominance." now that's changing, the world is waking up,
China has gone with Open Office, standards are making a come back, M$
is forced to try it's hand at standards, and launches Office Open XML
(instead of going with Open Document Format.) M$ loses huge market
share towards FF and Thunderbird. Allegedly only with enormous
pressure and expense of an individual's career and health did they
survive the Massachusetts decision. M$ heads are now thinking how can
a big company with so many people get it so wrong. Big companies get
top heavy and become victims of their own success and sheer weight. It
is not at all certain that a company like Microsoft will be around in
it's current form in 10years, what is more certain is that they will
change to be more reasonable. All companies _have_ to obey the market
trends, if enough enlightened developers and decision makers choose
superior products, M$ will be forced to change. That's the way I work,
the individual can change the world, if s/he isn't too greedy, and
doesn't think of number 1 the whole time.

So install yourself XAMPP for windoze/Linux from the great people of
http://www.apachefriends.de
Then hop on over to see some examples of http://jquery.com/ in action.
There are many others, and you can get a great grid which can plug
into /any/ architecture for free. I use http://www.apache.org/ because
I love it's flexibility, and it's API means there is always the chance
to hack it at will. Look at http://modsecurity.org/ and the cool rules
project - a great example of the Apache API in action, a fully
featured application firewall coded into a dll for Apache. So how do
you protect that application you bought that runs on your IIS server -
you don't have the source, but you know it has vulnerabilities - wait
for the chargeable update to come out or just proxy your stuff through
Apache and use mod_security to prevent the I/O that the costly closed
source app is vulnerable to. (if the code is closed, you can swep any
old thing under the carpet - sssh - don't tell 'em, we'll get v2 in
the shops in time for Christmas, and no need to include that
functionality, else what will the market guys use to sell v2, and
don't worry, our programmers are safe from a bad rep, it's not like
anyone can see what a mess the source code is)

Man I should stop right now, I get passionate about collaboration and
competition rather than competition. Whenever the human race has had
to come up with something fast, it does it by cooperation, not by
setting one expert against the other, "oh yes but..." I hear someone
say "where's the money in that - for me?"

[Jerry Stuckle]

Ben wrote:

"shimmyshack" <ma********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[shimmyshack]

On Mar 30, 11:11 pm, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

Ben wrote:

"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

I know Jerry, this is what I think too: what is the difference between
using an IDE like VS that "helps me get stuff done super fast" and
reusing an abstracted component you write yourself from scratch and
understand, which you store somewhere easy to find later, and can copy
and paste in place, pulling the data from a db and styling with css,
it's why the activegrid guys have done so well!
I appreciate that it might be harder to ajaxify a fully fledged app,
whereas in VS it comes down to highlighting and clicking but I don't
trust the result of those highlights and clicks.

[Ben]

"shimmyshack" <ma********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@r56g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...

On Mar 30, 11:11 pm, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

>Ben wrote:

"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.googleg roups.com...

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen.
He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will
still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added
development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and
spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of
experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

I know Jerry, this is what I think too: what is the difference between
using an IDE like VS that "helps me get stuff done super fast" and
reusing an abstracted component you write yourself from scratch and
understand, which you store somewhere easy to find later, and can copy
and paste in place, pulling the data from a db and styling with css,
it's why the activegrid guys have done so well!
I appreciate that it might be harder to ajaxify a fully fledged app,
whereas in VS it comes down to highlighting and clicking but I don't
trust the result of those highlights and clicks.

Well I do have some exp designing a system that was developed in VB.NET a
couple years ago. I was all design but led the developers, serious white
board time. Working with them was fun, how they bragged about how wonderful
it was and cut dev time way down, etc....but when it went to live production
the time saved by wizard driven development was paid for, in my opinion
twice over. Again, I haven't much experience programming web based apps but
do understand the concept. Being an old-school xBase guy who has functions
built many years ago still saving me time today....am of the same mind set.
I know what my stuff does and I only had to suffer through the pain of
writing it once.

Thanks for the replies, good info and resource recs. Now I need to lock
myself in the basement and read, test, train, debug....I need some good
montage music!

Thanks again, I'll have more nooB questions to be slaughtered or answered
here soon.

=B

[Jerry Stuckle]

shimmyshack wrote:

On Mar 30, 11:11 pm, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

>Ben wrote:

>>"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.google groups.com...
This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.

I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

I know Jerry, this is what I think too: what is the difference between
using an IDE like VS that "helps me get stuff done super fast" and
reusing an abstracted component you write yourself from scratch and
understand, which you store somewhere easy to find later, and can copy
and paste in place, pulling the data from a db and styling with css,
it's why the activegrid guys have done so well!
I appreciate that it might be harder to ajaxify a fully fledged app,
whereas in VS it comes down to highlighting and clicking but I don't
trust the result of those highlights and clicks.

Actually, that was a play on a game show here back in the '80's called
"Name That Tune". Players would bid on how few notes they would need to
recognize the tune - similar to a reverse auction (lowest bid gets the
chance), i.e. "I can name that tune in five notes...".

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[shimmyshack]

On Mar 31, 3:35 am, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

shimmyshack wrote:

On Mar 30, 11:11 pm, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

Ben wrote:
"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.google groups.com...
This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.
I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

I know Jerry, this is what I think too: what is the difference between
using an IDE like VS that "helps me get stuff done super fast" and
reusing an abstracted component you write yourself from scratch and
understand, which you store somewhere easy to find later, and can copy
and paste in place, pulling the data from a db and styling with css,
it's why the activegrid guys have done so well!
I appreciate that it might be harder to ajaxify a fully fledged app,
whereas in VS it comes down to highlighting and clicking but I don't
trust the result of those highlights and clicks.

Actually, that was a play on a game show here back in the '80's called
"Name That Tune". Players would bid on how few notes they would need to
recognize the tune - similar to a reverse auction (lowest bid gets the
chance), i.e. "I can name that tune in five notes...".

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

bet you'll get this one -
"da da da daaaa"
and that's only 4, and they're not even notes?!

[Jerry Stuckle]

shimmyshack wrote:

On Mar 31, 3:35 am, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:

>shimmyshack wrote:

>>On Mar 30, 11:11 pm, Jerry Stuckle <[e-mail]:
Ben wrote:
"shimmyshack" <[e-mail] in message
news:11**********************@p77g2000hsh.goog legroups.com...
This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.
I can knock this grid out in 1.5 hours!
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================
I know Jerry, this is what I think too: what is the difference between
using an IDE like VS that "helps me get stuff done super fast" and
reusing an abstracted component you write yourself from scratch and
understand, which you store somewhere easy to find later, and can copy
and paste in place, pulling the data from a db and styling with css,
it's why the activegrid guys have done so well!
I appreciate that it might be harder to ajaxify a fully fledged app,
whereas in VS it comes down to highlighting and clicking but I don't
trust the result of those highlights and clicks.

Actually, that was a play on a game show here back in the '80's called
"Name That Tune". Players would bid on how few notes they would need to
recognize the tune - similar to a reverse auction (lowest bid gets the
chance), i.e. "I can name that tune in five notes...".

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
[e-mail]
==================

bet you'll get this one -
"da da da daaaa"
and that's only 4, and they're not even notes?!

Good evening, friennnnnds! :-)

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================