Unkowingly Took PHP Job with undgodly PHP Gurus ...

Thank you. Good advice. The answer was C. I told them in the
interview that I had never used a template based system and that I
was unfimiliar with cvs servers and that I was Windows guy not a
linux guy. I sincerely want to learn their system as quickly as
possible, so that's why I'm just wondering if anyone else has faced
a similiar situation and had a link that helped them or some advice.
The template system is home grown and is not nearly as robust as
Smarty, so that helps. The problem for me is figuring out how to
test my code. These people do not have a test box set up,
everything goes live. It's very intimidating. Thanks again for the
advice. Off to go to Wiki right now. OOP seems to be my biggest
challenge that the moment.

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Sep 26 '06 #3

Also, the guys are willing to help me, but they are so Fricking fast
in the way that they do it and the fact that they are showing me on
their linux machines makes it that much harder to grasp. I am going
to spend the entire weekend learning this stuff. Thanks for any and
all help.

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Sep 26 '06 #4

http://www.php.net/OOP
http://www.php.net/OOP5

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:40:01 +0000, wrote:

Need a good tutorial on Classes, OOP, Template systems, etc, because
absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing looks familiar to my
procedural based programming that has served me for years. Should I
even bother learning this stuff or just continue writing as I
normally do and have them inplement it into their system? Plus of
course they are all Linux Gods and I use Windows That doesn't help
either. Any really good tutorial out there that could get me up to
speed quick?

You should tell them to hire someone who knows what they're doing.

Sep 26 '06 #5

mootmail-googlegroups

ne*********@spam.com wrote:

Also, the guys are willing to help me, but they are so Fricking fast
in the way that they do it and the fact that they are showing me on
their linux machines makes it that much harder to grasp. I am going
to spend the entire weekend learning this stuff. Thanks for any and
all help.

Oh, I know how fast those unix/linux guys can be. I have plenty of
friends and co-workers who grew up on the command line and when they
get typing, it can seem like someone just hit the x32 fast-forward
button. Being a windows guy myself, I've learned to play to my own
strengths, not to try and become like them. To me, the command line
will never be as intuitive to use as it is to someone who's been on it
for decades.

Personally, I keep a text file of "Useful Unix Commands" that I've
picked up over the years. When I see someone do something interesting,
I go look up the man pages for the command (if you are really a newbie,
'man' is the very first command you should learn) and try to figure out
what exactly they did. If that doesn't help, I just google for a bit
until I find it. Once I figure it out, I make a note of it that I can
refer to the next time I need it. Over time, you gradually learn it to
the point where you don't need to look it up every time.

Also, if they are moving through code examples too fast, don't be
afraid to, after they are done, just say "email me a copy of that,
would you?". It'll take them 2 seconds, and it will let you work
through the code at your own pace back at your desk.

As for them working without a dev environment, that's just reckless and
stupid on their part, even with cvs in place. You don't have to be a
part of that. Install Apache/PHP/a database on your own computer and
pull down a copy of everything on Live. Then you have your own
personal development space where you can do whatever you want and it
isn't going to F anything up.

If you can, try to get them to set up a dev environment for the group.
Flying without a net isn't a sign up your coding-prowess, it's just
dumb. Where I work, we aren't developing anything
uber-"Mission-Critical" that can't have a single second of downtime,
but we still have seperate dev environments for EACH programmer. It
doesn't take that much effort to set up, and everything stays current
with automatic cvs sync's.

Sep 26 '06 #6

ca*******@yahoo.com wrote:

>
Need a good tutorial on Classes, OOP

Template systems,

Each template system has its own documentation...

Should I even bother learning this stuff or just
continue writing as I normally do and have them
inplement it into their system?

If you continue writing as you usually do, it may simply get you fired,
since your code will be unusable.

Cheers,
NC

Sep 26 '06 #7

otrWalter

ne*********@spam.com wrote:

Also, the guys are willing to help me, but they are so Fricking fast
in the way that they do it and the fact that they are showing me on
their linux machines makes it that much harder to grasp. I am going
to spend the entire weekend learning this stuff. Thanks for any and
all help.

>From what I've read on this thread, looks like you have a windows box

to work on. (If not, ignore the rest of this message)

drop over to...

http://web.torres.ws/walters_way/

Read it. Step through it. Understand it.

It will show you how to install Apache, PHP, Perl, SSH, CVS, etc, on a
windows box and have it act like a Linux box.

Using windows-centric terms and and views, you will begin to see how
(but nod why) linux is set up.

I have slso have a 98% complete Linux command line toolset for Windows.
So (almost) anything thye can do on linux, I can do on my PC. It helped
me learn linux.

I'm now the CVS and Apache admin for my group!

As for building and testing POHP on your PC. No problem. Any code you
modifiy will work on a linux box.

As for no testing machine. You might want to suggest that they make a
testing environment to help with team development.

Fixing things live is like living on the edge. It may be thrilling, but
it can kill!

Also, does your new job have some sort of source control? (please say
yes!)

If they have a lnux based CVS system, the above wab page will step you
through accessing it via your PC so you can checkin in and out files as
needed.

Hope this help, and good luck.

walter

Sep 26 '06 #8

ne*********@spam.com wrote:

Thank you. Good advice. The answer was C. I told them in the
interview that I had never used a template based system and that I
was unfimiliar with cvs servers and that I was Windows guy not a
linux guy. I sincerely want to learn their system as quickly as
possible, so that's why I'm just wondering if anyone else has faced
a similiar situation and had a link that helped them or some advice.
The template system is home grown and is not nearly as robust as
Smarty, so that helps. The problem for me is figuring out how to
test my code. These people do not have a test box set up,
everything goes live. It's very intimidating. Thanks again for the
advice. Off to go to Wiki right now. OOP seems to be my biggest
challenge that the moment.

Calm down and don't feel intimidated. These guys are probably not as
good as you think. Not having a test setup is usually a sign of a
dysfunctional development process. Typically, every programmer would
have their own environment to develop with. Then the code is checked
into a version control repository. The updated codebase is pushed onto
the test environment and only after testing would it go live.

The first thing you should do is set up your own development
environment. Testing new stuff on a production server is nuts. PHP is
cross platform and most likely the database employed is too, so you
should be able to develop from Windows. It makes sense to start with
something you know instead of trying to learn everything at once.
TortoiseCVS is a very intuitive and easy-to-use Win32 CVS client
(http://www.tortoisecvs.org/). It helped me greatly when I had to learn
CVS in a hurry.

Reading Design Patterns is probably a good idea if you have to work
with folks obsessed with OOP. You will at least learn the terminology,
even if it doesn't help you understand your new colleagues' code.
Software written in OOP tend to suffer from entropic effect, that is,
code-complexity increasing for no other reason than the existence of
possibilities for it to do so. Chances are you'll be staring at a plate
of spaghetti.

On several occasions I've been parachuted into projects midway. It's
always intimidating at first of course. After a while though you
realize that when something doesn't make sense, it really is because it
doesn't make sense and not because you've somehow failed to understand
it.

Sep 26 '06 #9

Thanks a million for that response. That was exactly what I needed
to hear. I am confident in my php skills but feel like an idiot in
this system and cvs is intimidating to say the least when you've
never used it and everyone is whipping through it at lightning speed
on a unix box. I will take your advice and realize that these guys
are not geniuses and their code is probably quit simple when gotten
down right to the nuts and bolts. It does seem like these guys just
write code to impress each other and not to simply get the job done.
I also think part of it is they don't know how good I am yet and
don't want to act stupid or assume that I don't know anything or
make them look bad, so they're trying to be Billy Bad Asses when it
comes to PHP. I have sort of tried the "please be patient with me"
approach and it's too early to tell if they appreciate the honesty
or see it as weakness that they can exploit. The one thing I have
over them is the ability to live and breath this stuff in every bit
of my spare time, weekends included until I have it mastered,
probably better than them. Again. I can't tell you how much I
needed to hear your comments...
Chris
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Sep 26 '06 #10

Thanks so much for the comments. Exactly what I needed to hear to
get encourament. I am not kidding when I say these guys execute
unix command at the speed of light it's nearly impossible to
comprehend. I have one thing on them though and that is the ability
to work hard to catch up to speed even if it means every means of
disposal to do it. I might even hire a tutor if I have to, but one
things remains certain, I won't give up. Thanks a million for the
advice.

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Sep 26 '06 #11

Nice. They are having trouble finding someone. Also, I am a good
php programmer. Just not OOP. Can you comprehend that. I told
them that in the interview and they said, "don't worry, you'll catch
on."

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Sep 26 '06 #12

Walter,
Thanks a ton! I was hoping for someone to comment like this.
Means the world to me.
Chris
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Sep 26 '06 #13

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:11:42 +0000, wrote:

Nice. They are having trouble finding someone. Also, I am a good php
programmer. Just not OOP. Can you comprehend that. I told them that
in the interview and they said, "don't worry, you'll catch on."

Yea... got that later in the thread... consider my comments retracted and
the result of a bad day and being in a city where there are no jobs
because everyone and their brother thinks they can do an IT job because
they have a computer at home.

Sep 26 '06 #14

NO problem friend.
From one frustrated person to another.....
sucks doesn't it.
:)
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Sep 26 '06 #15

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:18:47 +0000, wrote:

NO problem friend.
From one frustrated person to another..... sucks doesn't it.

There's been one IT job (web designer) in the paper for the last six
months... though that isn't the best place to find an IT job around here
it is a good indicator for the market in the area.

I'm gonna' have to move to another state if I want to find a different
job.

Sep 26 '06 #16

What state do you live in? I was talking to my recruiter here in
FLorda and he was saying that they can't seem to fill web dev jobs
quick enough. ASP.net mainly though it sounded like. Our current
company needs four more PHP programers ASAP, so if you want to
relocate, I'm sure you'd be employed qickly. Just be prepared for
some advanced convoluted bullshit coding practices.

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Sep 26 '06 #17

ne*********@spam.com wrote:

Thanks a million for that response. That was exactly what I needed
to hear. I am confident in my php skills but feel like an idiot in
this system and cvs is intimidating to say the least when you've
never used it and everyone is whipping through it at lightning speed
on a unix box. I will take your advice and realize that these guys
are not geniuses and their code is probably quit simple when gotten
down right to the nuts and bolts. It does seem like these guys just
write code to impress each other and not to simply get the job done.
I also think part of it is they don't know how good I am yet and
don't want to act stupid or assume that I don't know anything or
make them look bad, so they're trying to be Billy Bad Asses when it
comes to PHP. I have sort of tried the "please be patient with me"
approach and it's too early to tell if they appreciate the honesty
or see it as weakness that they can exploit. The one thing I have
over them is the ability to live and breath this stuff in every bit
of my spare time, weekends included until I have it mastered,
probably better than them. Again. I can't tell you how much I
needed to hear your comments...

Programming is not unlike writing prose. If you write something isn't
easily comprehensible by another programmer, it's you who is the bum.
PHP development is easy enough. Stuff in. Stuff out. But just as some
are wont to quote from Pluto's Republic where they're writing about
their pet gerbil, there are programmers who bring in unnecessary
complexities in order to impress. I am willing to bet that the template
system you mentioned will turn out to be completely pointless. It is so
nine of ten times--few projects need or could afford multiple user
interfaces.

You will want to get some practice on using CVS though. Google CVS NT
for the server software and TortoiseCVS for a graphical client.

Sep 26 '06 #18

Oli Filth

Chung Leong said the following on 26/09/2006 23:05:

Programming is not unlike writing prose. If you write something isn't
easily comprehensible by another programmer, it's you who is the bum.

That's only true up to a point. The clearest, most beautiful, most
amazingly commented code in the world isn't going to be understood if
it's OO, and the reader doesn't know anything about OOP. Similarly if
the code is to implement a compiler and the reader doesn't know compiler
theory. Similarly if the code is implementing MP3 codec and the reader
doesn't know signal theory and compression theory, etc. etc. (insert
scenario of your choice)

The point is that good code is of no use if the reader doesn't
understand the theory of the algorithm/technique that's being implemented.

Although obviously, one can always read up on the subject in question.

(And obviously, you're probably not being hired to implement an MP3
codec or a compiler in PHP.)
--
Oli

Sep 26 '06 #19

Oli Filth wrote:

That's only true up to a point. The clearest, most beautiful, most
amazingly commented code in the world isn't going to be understood if
it's OO, and the reader doesn't know anything about OOP. Similarly if
the code is to implement a compiler and the reader doesn't know compiler
theory. Similarly if the code is implementing MP3 codec and the reader
doesn't know signal theory and compression theory, etc. etc. (insert
scenario of your choice)

People who haven't read Plato won't understand any Platonian
referenences either, which is why you shouldn't them in your essay if
you just want the reader to learn the fate of your gerbil. Doing so is
stupid and pretentious. Baffling others with ill-applied knowledge does
not make one smart. While the desire to show off is excusable in
middleschool, in a workplace it's unprofessional, especially when it
becomes a burden to fellow workers.

Compiler code in a compiler is necessary. Compression code in a codec
is necessary. Using OO in a PHP project is a choice.

Sep 27 '06 #20

cameltoer

Hi, I downloaded cvsnt from google installed it and am not sure what
to do now. When I right click in Tortiose I still get the
connection info for our remote cvs. I"m not sure how to change this
or even how to configure for my local box. Is there anyway we could
communicate via email or icq just to get this straightened out. I
only need some basic, pointed in the right direction and I can
figure the rest out. It would be a tremendous help. Thanks.
icq 274407381. or racphp at yahoo
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Sep 27 '06 #21

ca*******@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi, I downloaded cvsnt from google installed it and am not sure what
to do now. When I right click in Tortiose I still get the
connection info for our remote cvs. I"m not sure how to change this
or even how to configure for my local box. Is there anyway we could
communicate via email or icq just to get this straightened out. I
only need some basic, pointed in the right direction and I can
figure the rest out. It would be a tremendous help. Thanks.
icq 274407381. or racphp at yahoo

You will need to seek someone else's help I'm afraid. I use Subversion
myself. Might want to read the the TortoiseCVS FAQ.

Sep 27 '06 #22

otrWalter

ne*********@spam.com wrote:

What state do you live in? I was talking to my recruiter here in
FLorda and he was saying that they can't seem to fill web dev jobs
quick enough. ASP.net mainly though it sounded like. Our current
company needs four more PHP programers ASAP, so if you want to
relocate, I'm sure you'd be employed qickly. Just be prepared for
some advanced convoluted bullshit coding practices.

I've been looking for real work for oiver a year now.

Everyone up here (Chicago) wants 3 to 5 years, a grocery list of skills
and languages, and oh yea, to work for $35k to $50k.

A guy can't feed his family around here on that. If I was a
20-something and single I could cut it, but...

Can you say "over-qualifiied!"

Walter

PS: Even the freelance work wants things done for less than $200, and I
mena projects that take weeks!

Sep 27 '06 #23