Advice for an asp developer

[Pepper]

I may be alone in this feeling, but I am a long time asp developer and
after a few years of asp.net development still am not comfortable with
the new way of doing things. Asp.net just seems too complicated for
the majority of stuff I do and I miss the more simplistic scripting
way. I don't use WYSIWYG editors, don't mind writing a few lines of
code. I seem to end up with at least one frustrating moment with every
asp.net project trying to do somehthing that I felt was simple in ASP
classic.

I have never used PHP but understand it is similar to asp (vs. using
asp.net), and would like to hear from someone experienced with all
three (ASP, PHP, ASP.NET) if I am missing the boat or if I should look
to PHP as a viable alternative.

Thanks,

Pepper

[ImOk]

I have been programming for many years with ASP and have done some
coding with ASP.NET and I know exactly what you mean. ASP.NET Its too
complicated for web development and ASP is too far behind and not
supported.

Yes, PHP has many similarities to ASP but PHP is much more flexible in
its capabilites libraries and on the language controls such as arrays
and classes. ASP.NET is a monster. Like Java.

Slight differences between ASP and PHP. PHP has no globals.asa. There
is no persistence at the application level. You have to do that
yourself by including a file and use user sessions. No big deal.

PHP has many free libraries that normally you would have to pay to use
in ASP. It is definetely the way to go.

Pepper wrote:

I may be alone in this feeling, but I am a long time asp developer and
after a few years of asp.net development still am not comfortable with
the new way of doing things. Asp.net just seems too complicated for
the majority of stuff I do and I miss the more simplistic scripting
way. I don't use WYSIWYG editors, don't mind writing a few lines of
code. I seem to end up with at least one frustrating moment with every
asp.net project trying to do somehthing that I felt was simple in ASP
classic.

I have never used PHP but understand it is similar to asp (vs. using
asp.net), and would like to hear from someone experienced with all
three (ASP, PHP, ASP.NET) if I am missing the boat or if I should look
to PHP as a viable alternative.

Thanks,

Pepper

[Pepper]

ImOk,

Thanks for the advice. Do you know the future of PHP? With Microsoft
pouring resources into asp.net, do you think or know if PHP will
continue to always be a strong alternative in capabilities? Currently,
I know of no advantages other than speed in certiain configs that
asp.net has over any other languages with the exception of Cold Fusion
which can generate flash forms on the fly, but that could change with
Microsoft controlling IE.

Pep

[ImOk]

PHP is well supported because of Linux which will always be around and
improved. The Windows version is a windfall. Take advantage of it and
dont worry what MS will do. And anyway many people including myself are
using Firefox now. As good as IE if not better and works on all
platforms. PHP is a real developers tool. ASP.NET is an attempt at
insulating you from the real world.

Pepper wrote:

ImOk,

Thanks for the advice. Do you know the future of PHP? With Microsoft
pouring resources into asp.net, do you think or know if PHP will
continue to always be a strong alternative in capabilities? Currently,
I know of no advantages other than speed in certiain configs that
asp.net has over any other languages with the exception of Cold Fusion
which can generate flash forms on the fly, but that could change with
Microsoft controlling IE.

Pep

[Jeff North]

On 4 Jul 2006 10:25:49 -0700, in comp.lang.php "Pepper"
<Pe***********@gmail.com>
<11**********************@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups .comwrote:

>| I may be alone in this feeling, but I am a long time asp developer and
| after a few years of asp.net development still am not comfortable with
| the new way of doing things. Asp.net just seems too complicated for
| the majority of stuff I do and I miss the more simplistic scripting
| way. I don't use WYSIWYG editors, don't mind writing a few lines of
| code. I seem to end up with at least one frustrating moment with every
| asp.net project trying to do somehthing that I felt was simple in ASP
| classic.

I feel your pain :-)
I've programmed in ASP classic for many many years (both VB and
JScript) and recently tried ASP.NET. Went through all the tutorials
and thought I understood how things worked. Then I tried converting
one of my apps to ASP.NET. The hoops that you had to jump through....
Needless to say I've now gone over to PHP.

My other main gripe with ASP.NET is that you'd have to be a damn good
programmer with an exceptional memory to remember all the commands and
arguments. You really need the IDE as a simple text editor wont cut
it.

>| I have never used PHP but understand it is similar to asp (vs. using
| asp.net), and would like to hear from someone experienced with all
| three (ASP, PHP, ASP.NET) if I am missing the boat or if I should look
| to PHP as a viable alternative.

If you've programmed in JScript then the cross-over isn't all that
difficult, VB maybe a bit more difficult.

The main differences you'll see are:
.. instead of & (VB) or + (JScript)
$ prefixed to each variable
can't do if( Astring == Bstring) must use strcmp()
The library of functions is *huge*. Because these libraries are
written by different companies (previously) there were/are some
function naming convention and return type differences.

Installation of PHP and ISAPI under IIS can be a real pain in the butt
(the manual is good and has all the information necessary but you've
got to go looking for it). I'll try and find the post where I assisted
someone else who was setting up there system and the steps that I
took.

I use Dreamweaver for most of the html page layout but use textpad
(www.textpad.com) for most of the scripting. You can download the
php/mySQL clip library to help you with the function etc.

If you are going to use a database then I suggest that ezSQL Database
Class is the way to go (http://www.jvmultimedia.com/portal/node/6).
---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

[Harold Crump]

Hi Pepper --

I have experience with all three platforms - the 'old' ASP, ASP.NET and
now PHP

My perspective is that PHP and ASP.NET are not competing/replacement
technologies.
They serve different purposes and cater to a different customer base.

As you no doubt know, ASP.NET is very different from ASP and is light
years ahead of it.

You can compare ASP with PHP, however, not ASP.NET with PHP - they are
different beasts.

I am fairly accomplished with ASP.NET and have designed and built
several enterprise-strength, mission critical application with ASP.NET.

My humble opinion is that PHP cannot compete in the same product space
as ASP.NET - not because of any technical limitations but because of
speed, framework/OOP, and productivity reasons.

While it may be technically possible to build the same complexity of
applications with PHP as with ASP.NET, PHP cannot match the
productivity and framework support that ASP.NET offers - there is
simply no competition there.

Some of the stuff that we routinely build with ASP.NET in months will
take years to build with PHP, even if you throw an army of developers.
Maintenance and extensibility is another important area where ASP.NET
wins hands-down.

OTOH, PHP caters to a product space where ASP.NET doesn't stand a
chance because of the cost footprint, skill availability and other
reasons.

I currently build web applications for small to medium businesses where
I will not consider ASP.NET because it is an overkill - both in terms
of cost as well as complexity.

At the same time, I routinely build stuff in .NET that I would be nuts
to even think of building in PHP.

Asp.net just seems too complicated for
the majority of stuff I do and I miss the more simplistic scripting
way.

True - see above.
They serve different purposes.

I don't use WYSIWYG editors, don't mind writing a few lines of
code. I seem to end up with at least one frustrating moment with every
asp.net project trying to do somehthing that I felt was simple in ASP
classic.

You can still do "classic" ASP with ASP.NET.
However, ASP.NET is specifically meant for those systems that *require*
the extensibility, productivity and OOP support that .NET offers.
Anyone who has built those beasts with ASP, COM+, VB 6.0 knows what I
am talking about.
Compared to ASP.NET apps, those ASP/COM+ beasts seem like something out
of the Jurassic age.

I have never used PHP but understand it is similar to asp (vs. using
asp.net), and would like to hear from someone experienced with all
three (ASP, PHP, ASP.NET) if I am missing the boat or if I should look
to PHP as a viable alternative.

It is a viable alternative for certain types of apps, as I mentioned
above.
I don't see them as competing products, but as different tools for
different tasks.
Which is why PHP can never really threaten Microsoft in the way Java
does, nor can .NET rob PHP of its customer base.

My $0.02

-Harold.

[Paul Lautman]

Jeff North wrote:
Could you explain your statement

can't do if( Astring == Bstring) must use strcmp()

I often compare strings in an if statement?

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <4h*************@individual.netfrom Paul Lautman contained
the following:

>Could you explain your statement

>can't do if( Astring == Bstring) must use strcmp()

I often compare strings in an if statement?

So do I. It may be something to do with this:

http://uk.php.net/strcmp

From the user notes...

When we make a comparison with == php automaticly converts strings to
integers when either side of the comparison is an integer, f.e.:
<?
$value = 0;
if($value == "submit") {
echo "Let's submit";
}
?>
Above would be succesful, since "submit" is converted to an integer (eq
0) and the equation is would return true; (that's why (1 == "1submit")
would also return true)

That's why we should use strcmp or === (checks type also), for string
comparisons.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Jeff North]

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 11:39:40 +0100, in comp.lang.php Geoff Berrow
<bl******@ckdog.co.uk>
<ef********************************@4ax.comwrote :

>| Message-ID: <4h*************@individual.netfrom Paul Lautman contained
| the following:
|
| >Could you explain your statement
| >
| >can't do if( Astring == Bstring) must use strcmp()
| >
| >I often compare strings in an if statement?
|
| So do I.

I stand corrected. I just looked at my old code that was causing this
problem. All I can see is that I wasn't initialising variables
correctly before the comparison, thus the error.

>| It may be something to do with this:
|
| http://uk.php.net/strcmp
|
| From the user notes...
|
| When we make a comparison with == php automaticly converts strings to
| integers when either side of the comparison is an integer, f.e.:
| <?
| $value = 0;
| if($value == "submit") {
| echo "Let's submit";
| }
| ?>
| Above would be succesful, since "submit" is converted to an integer (eq
| 0) and the equation is would return true; (that's why (1 == "1submit")
| would also return true)
|
| That's why we should use strcmp or === (checks type also), for string
| comparisons.

Maybe it's because of my old C/C++ programming days but I think I'll
stick with the strcmp(), I feel safer that way :-)

Here are some interesting links that people might find useful:
http://au.php.net/manual/en/language...comparison.php
http://au.php.net/manual/en/types.comparisons.php
http://killersoft.com/misc/php_variable_tests.php
---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

[ImOk]

<<Installation of PHP and ISAPI under IIS can be a real pain in the
butt
(the manual is good and has all the information necessary but you've
got to go looking for it). I'll try and find the post where I assisted
someone else who was setting up there system and the steps that I
took. >>

I will disagree with this. Just follow the steps and it works fine.

On your virtual alias properties In configuration set the extension
..php to point to where your phpisapi.DLL is

Assuming PHP is in c:\PHP5

C:\PHP5\php5isapi.dll

And the Limit to: GET,POST,HEAD

Apply and then rightclick on Default Web Site (the root of your
server), choose properties and select ISAPI filters. Add the DLL there
as well. Call the filter name "php" without the quotes.

Go to Start/Run/CMD and at the DOS prompt type IISRESET to restart IIS.

Now run a <?php print phpinfo() ?to check your work.

[ImOk]

Nice explanation for ASP.NET. However I have used ASP.NET and find
productivity and maintenance to slide to the negative side of ASP.

Database work is a bear. You need expensive tools and purchase
additional controls. If you use their prebuilt controls you are stuck
with their limitations. Basically you have no control over your
javascript with these controls or you have to figure out their inner
workings..

Lastly you application is not portable back and forth to Linux and its
MS centric.

PHP offers protability, free or pocket change tools and flexibility and
is progressive. Maybe if are making American Express website you would
use that APS.NET. After all what is a few millions to AMEX.

However for most average businesses PHP/MYSQL gives them more than
adequate performance at all levels. And it is well known even in the
suited world of global corporations.

Lastly as proof that Microsoft actually 'supporting' PHP is the
tutorial presentation they gave at NY PHP Conference last month:

https://www.nyphpcon.com/speakers.ph...8f694cec23af8a

PHP Rocking in the Windows World

They dont care what you program in as long as you are tied to Windows.

Harold Crump wrote:

Hi Pepper --

I have experience with all three platforms - the 'old' ASP, ASP.NET and
now PHP

My perspective is that PHP and ASP.NET are not competing/replacement
technologies.
They serve different purposes and cater to a different customer base.

As you no doubt know, ASP.NET is very different from ASP and is light
years ahead of it.

You can compare ASP with PHP, however, not ASP.NET with PHP - they are
different beasts.

I am fairly accomplished with ASP.NET and have designed and built
several enterprise-strength, mission critical application with ASP.NET.

My humble opinion is that PHP cannot compete in the same product space
as ASP.NET - not because of any technical limitations but because of
speed, framework/OOP, and productivity reasons.

While it may be technically possible to build the same complexity of
applications with PHP as with ASP.NET, PHP cannot match the
productivity and framework support that ASP.NET offers - there is
simply no competition there.

Some of the stuff that we routinely build with ASP.NET in months will
take years to build with PHP, even if you throw an army of developers.
Maintenance and extensibility is another important area where ASP.NET
wins hands-down.

OTOH, PHP caters to a product space where ASP.NET doesn't stand a
chance because of the cost footprint, skill availability and other
reasons.

I currently build web applications for small to medium businesses where
I will not consider ASP.NET because it is an overkill - both in terms
of cost as well as complexity.

At the same time, I routinely build stuff in .NET that I would be nuts
to even think of building in PHP.

Asp.net just seems too complicated for
the majority of stuff I do and I miss the more simplistic scripting
way.

True - see above.
They serve different purposes.

I don't use WYSIWYG editors, don't mind writing a few lines of
code. I seem to end up with at least one frustrating moment with every
asp.net project trying to do somehthing that I felt was simple in ASP
classic.

You can still do "classic" ASP with ASP.NET.
However, ASP.NET is specifically meant for those systems that *require*
the extensibility, productivity and OOP support that .NET offers.
Anyone who has built those beasts with ASP, COM+, VB 6.0 knows what I
am talking about.
Compared to ASP.NET apps, those ASP/COM+ beasts seem like something out
of the Jurassic age.

I have never used PHP but understand it is similar to asp (vs. using
asp.net), and would like to hear from someone experienced with all
three (ASP, PHP, ASP.NET) if I am missing the boat or if I should look
to PHP as a viable alternative.

It is a viable alternative for certain types of apps, as I mentioned
above.
I don't see them as competing products, but as different tools for
different tasks.
Which is why PHP can never really threaten Microsoft in the way Java
does, nor can .NET rob PHP of its customer base.

My $0.02

-Harold.

[Jeff North]

On 5 Jul 2006 07:08:00 -0700, in comp.lang.php "ImOk"
<j_********@yahoo.com>
<11*********************@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups. comwrote:

>| <<Installation of PHP and ISAPI under IIS can be a real pain in the
| butt
| (the manual is good and has all the information necessary but you've
| got to go looking for it). I'll try and find the post where I assisted
| someone else who was setting up there system and the steps that I
| took. >>
|
| I will disagree with this. Just follow the steps and it works fine.

Like installing any software some people have no problems while others
experience nothing but problems. 99.999% of the time I don't have any
problems installing or uninstalling software but with php....

Although I must admit that I was not doing a clean install but an
update (from 4.1 to 5.0).

>| On your virtual alias properties In configuration set the extension
| .php to point to where your phpisapi.DLL is
|
| Assuming PHP is in c:\PHP5
|
| C:\PHP5\php5isapi.dll
|
| And the Limit to: GET,POST,HEAD
|
| Apply and then rightclick on Default Web Site (the root of your
| server), choose properties and select ISAPI filters. Add the DLL there
| as well. Call the filter name "php" without the quotes.
|
| Go to Start/Run/CMD and at the DOS prompt type IISRESET to restart IIS.
|
| Now run a <?php print phpinfo() ?to check your work.

---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

[Harold Crump]

ImOk wrote:

Nice explanation for ASP.NET. However I have used ASP.NET and find
productivity and maintenance to slide to the negative side of ASP.

The biggest benefit a platform like ASP.NET (and .NET in general, for
that matter) offers is the ability to build custom application
frameworks, not just for data access but for all types of application
services (exception handling, navigation, instrumentation, etc.)
Being a truly object-oriented platform, with a lot of stuff pre-baked
into the framework allows us to create application frameworks that
speed-up development and are extensible as well.

Enterprise Libraries (from the P&P group at Microsoft) is extensively
used in business applications, and a lot of development shops have
either extended it or built their own frameworks on top of that.

While it is possible to build application frameworks with PHP, their
robustness, complexity and extensibility cannot match those of .NET.

Database work is a bear. You need expensive tools and purchase
additional controls. If you use their prebuilt controls you are stuck
with their limitations. Basically you have no control over your
javascript with these controls or you have to figure out their inner
workings..

I agree, to a certain degree.
If your app depends a lot on client-side scripting, style sheets, etc.
you will run into issues if you go cross browser.
However, on a PHP or ASP platform, you have no controls - you have to
build everything from scratch anyways.
You can always build your own controls with .NET so much easier than
with ASP or PHP.

Lastly you application is not portable back and forth to Linux and its
MS centric.

True, at the same time, how many Microsoft based ISPs provide PHP
support?
It is also MS centric because a lot of its power exists because it is
tied to a platform.
If you take away SQL Server, BizTalk, the .NET CLR, etc. ASP.NET will
loose most of its teeth.

PHP offers protability, free or pocket change tools and flexibility and
is progressive. Maybe if are making American Express website you would
use that APS.NET. After all what is a few millions to AMEX.

I find that any appliaction that requires a wide user base, especially
one where there is no control over user's platform and browser, ASP.NET
may not be the best choice.
The most successful applications that I have built with ASP.NET have
been B2B type apps, or those where the users' requirement for
complexity, extensibility and speed of development outweighed their
requirement for cross platform and cross browser support.

That does not mean that you should not use ASP.NET unless you can lock
down to IE 6.0+ - you can always build custom UI components.
You will still have the benefits an application framework.

-Harold.