Recruiting a PHP Programmer

[Visionary]

Greetings,

I'm the webmaster/team lead at avlabsdesign.com, and I'm currently on
the hunt for a PHP programmer to join the team. I've been spreading
myself quite thin lately, and aside from that I enjoy having a good
solid team to work with. If you're at all interested, send an email to
te**@avlabsdesign.com with reference to your skill level and any
projects you may have worked on.

I should note that this is not a paid position, though I would not rule
out possible future earnings if the goals I have set for AVLabs Design
reaches fruition. If you're accepted onto the team, you will have a few
benefits of course:

You'd be a part of a serious team.
You'd be a part of serious projects.
Personal email @avlabsdesign.com.
Personal member page (planned to be a profile/blog hybrid of sorts).

I would be very happy to have a new member or two who is at *least*
highly familiar with PHP, though I would settle for someone in the
novice range as well.

Thank-you,
Nathan

[Jerry Stuckle]

Visionary wrote:

Greetings,

I'm the webmaster/team lead at avlabsdesign.com, and I'm currently on
the hunt for a PHP programmer to join the team. I've been spreading
myself quite thin lately, and aside from that I enjoy having a good
solid team to work with. If you're at all interested, send an email to
te**@avlabsdesign.com with reference to your skill level and any
projects you may have worked on.

I should note that this is not a paid position, though I would not rule
out possible future earnings if the goals I have set for AVLabs Design
reaches fruition. If you're accepted onto the team, you will have a few
benefits of course:

You'd be a part of a serious team.
You'd be a part of serious projects.
Personal email @avlabsdesign.com.
Personal member page (planned to be a profile/blog hybrid of sorts).

I would be very happy to have a new member or two who is at *least*
highly familiar with PHP, though I would settle for someone in the
novice range as well.

Thank-you,
Nathan

Sorry, I'm a programmer, not a bank. I get paid for my services; I don't "loan"
them out with the "possibility" of being paid later.

I like to eat, also. You want serious programmers? Pay serious money.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Visionary]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Sorry, I'm a programmer, not a bank. I get paid for my services; I don't "loan"
them out with the "possibility" of being paid later.

I like to eat, also. You want serious programmers? Pay serious money.

Well as much as I appreciate your rude criticism, I think you totally
missed what I was saying. I'm not saying "Work for me for free". I'm
saying I need a programmer who wants to join the team. It's not a paid
job or anything, just for fun. There are however projects in the works
that may turn a profit, and if so, you'd get your fair share.

And I was asking for novice - experienced programmers. Not some
professional who went to college and is looking for a 6 figure salary.
Are you so daft that you couldn't gather that from my post?

Now with that stuck up attitude of yours, why don't you show me what
makes you so worthy to sling your rude comments around as if you had
something to back it up? Or are you just a troller trying to piss
someone off? Either way I don't much care.

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11**********************@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups. com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I like to eat, also. You want serious programmers? Pay serious money.

Well as much as I appreciate your rude criticism, I think you totally
missed what I was saying. I'm not saying "Work for me for free". I'm
saying I need a programmer who wants to join the team. It's not a paid
job or anything, just for fun. There are however projects in the works
that may turn a profit, and if so, you'd get your fair share.

I feel your indignation is less that righteous. You've given very
little to go on other than the name. There are plenty of projects that
people might want to work on for free, charity work, open source
projects, special interest sites, but you've given no indication of the
nature of your project other than in /might/ involve serious work. As
such Jerry is quite right in his view. If you want to get people to work
for free, it at least has to be something that interests them. PHP
programmers have no shortage of things they could do for nothing.

I took the trouble of looking at your site which wasn't terribly
informative either (apart from demonstrating that your cluelessness
extended to web design also - I had to load it intro Firefox and enlarge
the text so I could even read it and then I still had trouble with the
menu items).

You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Don't make
matters worse by being upset at the comments here. Learn from your
mistakes.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Visionary]

Now, the last 3 comments were a lot more constructive and well mannered
compared to the first reply. I only replied to that post in the manner
that I did because it was due. I don't understand why it would have
offended anyone other than who it was directed towards, if anyone
did...

I'm not trying to make impressions, yet. As I said in my original post,
I've been spreading myself too thin. Biting off more than I can chew so
to say. I will admit, I didn't give a whole lot of detail though. Let
me explain why.

This is the first time I've posted to a group, or usenet post board.
First time I fired it up actually. I did a search for a PHP group, and
came across this one, with a good amount of members. I saw alot of
helpful posts, and what appeared to be a wealth of people learning PHP
that might like to join the AVLabs team. We're only 2 (3, though the
3rd is spread thin as well with personal projects) people now.

So I figured I would post a quick note, see if anyone was interested,
and if they were I'd go into more depth. Apparently I underestimated
the speed and prowess of some of the more advanced members here. Or am
I totally in the wrong place in the sense that, your all money hungry
programmers who are replying to me from an office cubicle somewhere? If
so, please point me in the right direction.

As for my design skills... True they might be lacking, but I believe
the problems anybody may have with the site is on their end. I'm not
conforming to some public standard of white background/black text. I'm
not aiming for blind people. I designed that site with my monitors
brightness at 15 (out of 100) and contrast all the way up. I had over
30 people beta test the site and give me suggestions and critiques.

It's a design team's site, and it isn't even public yet (in the sense
that there is no active campaigning). That's not to say that the site
doesn't meet standards:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...sdesign.com%2F

Now I'll go into a little more depth about what the goals of AVLabs
are, and what projects are planned or in progress. First off, AVLabs
isn't just made up of that one site, there are a few more under
construction. A wiki, forums, the AVDev site as well as a store which
is being built from the ground up, for stock photos and web templates.

The AVDev site is for... Software development. Particularly game
development. At the moment I am working on a commercial game, as well
as my own personal game engine. One of the planned projects for AVDev
is a webmaster tool. I won't get into that, as it would go on for hours
before it was properly laid out on the table.
--avdev.avlabsdesign.com--

The wiki is a sort of internal tool at the moment, for AVDev. Basically
just cataloguing links and useful information. It is being setup to be
a public source for various development information though. That will
come with time obviously.
--wiki.avlabsdesign.com--

The forums follow suit. Internal at the moment, but heading for a
public release. There is still a lot of work by way of content to be
added here, as well as all the other sections of AVLabs.
--forum.avlabsdesign.com--

I've started all this on my own, with no college education and hardly a
dime to my name. It's all I've been working at for a long, long time.
I've made a lot of friends, people willing to contribute to content
when the time comes. Photographers, 2D artists (an online and printed
comic is actually in the works as well), as well as people well as a
couple willing investors. Willing so long as AVLabs becomes something.

So I leave off, saying that I take no offense in the last few comments,
I understand where you are coming from. Just understand that I came
here to see if anyone was interested real quick. Admittedly I should
have taken the time to explain myself a little better, but my thinking
was that if someone was going to bite, they would do it fast. Or not at
all. I'm guessing the latter is more likely, and will be moving on.

[william.clarke]

Visionary wrote:

As for my design skills... True they might be lacking, but I believe
the problems anybody may have with the site is on their end. I'm not
conforming to some public standard of white background/black text. I'm
not aiming for blind people. I designed that site with my monitors
brightness at 15 (out of 100) and contrast all the way up. I had over
30 people beta test the site and give me suggestions and critiques.

It's a design team's site, and it isn't even public yet (in the sense
that there is no active campaigning). That's not to say that the site
doesn't meet standards:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...sdesign.com%2F

Accessibility should still be a design consideration, and you really
don't have to do that much more work to at least meet WAI WCAG Level 1
Priority Checkpoints ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html
) and as to "why", have a look here
http://www.w3schools.com/quality/qua...essibility.asp .

It's great that your site is valid "Transitional HTML 4.0", but lately
I've been aiming to get all the sites I maintain/develop up to at least
the strict DTD, if not valid Strict XHTML 1.0. But I have to agree with
others who have pointed that just meeting a standard isn't enough, some
of the worst code I've ever seen was entirely standards-compliant.
Compliance isn't a shield to hide behind, it should just be one of your
normal design considerations.

And complaining about Jerry's post actually highlights the fact you
haven't spent much time around here. Jerry and a number of the others
who replied to you are very willing to help newbies/learners as well as
more experienced developers and their opinions and comments are based
on real experience.

By the way I've loved your reply "...And I was asking for novice -
experienced programmers. Not some professional who went to college and
is looking for a 6 figure salary..." I meet two of those criteria, I'm
an experienced programmer and I went to college and university but I
have never earned a 6 figure salary...so, am I inside or outside the
scope of your ad?

</rant>

Actually, just ignore me, it's been a busy week and there are two
painful PeopleSoft issues waiting for me when I get back to work on
Monday...

[Bent Stigsen]

Visionary wrote:
[snip]

So I figured I would post a quick note, see if anyone was interested,
and if they were I'd go into more depth. Apparently I underestimated
the speed and prowess of some of the more advanced members here. Or am
I totally in the wrong place in the sense that, your all money hungry
programmers who are replying to me from an office cubicle somewhere? If
so, please point me in the right direction.
Ohh, obviously they must be money hungry programmers.

[snip] So I leave off, saying that I take no offense in the last few comments,
I understand where you are coming from. Just understand that I came
here to see if anyone was interested real quick. Admittedly I should
have taken the time to explain myself a little better, but my thinking
was that if someone was going to bite, they would do it fast. Or not at
all. I'm guessing the latter is more likely, and will be moving on.

I don't think more explaining would help. It is the hit-and-run attitude
that is the problem.
You just hit a large group of people, hoping to get to someone who might be
interested. When people find it annoying, you tell them is wasn't directed
at them, imply they are bad people and oops "please point me in the right
direction."

Had you made inquiries of acceptable behavior or just asked for directions
beforehand, it would have made a huge difference.
--
/Bent

[Visionary]

I agree accessibility should be a concern during the process of
developing a website. And I agree I haven't been around here long. I
agree with most of what's been said honestly. So far though I can see
the welcoming comittee here isn't so... Welcome.

I can tell when people want others to bow down to them, and
acknoweledge their status and accomplishments. I can tell by not doing
it, and the type of responses one gets. So far I've been shown that
everyone here is bright, and cocky. Only judgements and sour critiques
(true as they may be) have been passed. No "Hey that looks nice", "I
think I know a couple people who might be interested", etc. Not that I
want that, just noting a fact that fits in with the judgement I'm now
passing.

The first reply was pretty unwelcoming. The rest of the comments were
belittling in subtle ways. It appears I've encroached on "hostile"
territory. True as it may be that you guys would help others when they
have a PHP problem, you sure don't know how to show manners to
newcomers. I guess you have enough members here, and you don't really
care anymore about new people.

Funny that I simply came here to see if anyone would be interested in
joining a team, and instead the hounds pounce on me like I was a
burglar in the night. Guess I'll try elsewhere, and if that fails I'll
have to take on more tasks.

Thanks for your time, and the helpful thoughts you shared.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Visionary wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Sorry, I'm a programmer, not a bank. I get paid for my services; I don't "loan"
them out with the "possibility" of being paid later.

I like to eat, also. You want serious programmers? Pay serious money.

Well as much as I appreciate your rude criticism, I think you totally
missed what I was saying. I'm not saying "Work for me for free". I'm
saying I need a programmer who wants to join the team. It's not a paid
job or anything, just for fun. There are however projects in the works
that may turn a profit, and if so, you'd get your fair share.

And I was asking for novice - experienced programmers. Not some
professional who went to college and is looking for a 6 figure salary.
Are you so daft that you couldn't gather that from my post?

Now with that stuck up attitude of yours, why don't you show me what
makes you so worthy to sling your rude comments around as if you had
something to back it up? Or are you just a troller trying to piss
someone off? Either way I don't much care.

Yes I gathered that from your post. You're looking for free help.

And BTW, I am not a "new programmer". I have almost 40 years of programming
experience. And yes, I can command a six figure salary.

I've seen too many of your kind. "Join our team - maybe you'll get paid, maybe
you won't". For the record, I do participate in some open source, free
projects. But they're because I believe in the PROJECT - not because someone's
looking for free help.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Visionary]

"I should note that this is not a paid position, though I would not
rule
out possible future earnings if the goals I have set for AVLabs Design
reaches fruition."

Sounds a lot different from:

"Join our team - maybe you'll get paid, maybe you won't"

That's where I was stating that this wasn't a job. Not a job, but there
is a chance that money could get involved at a later time. I'm not
some peon asking someone to come and wash my armpits for free. I didn't
come here to start any fights. And I didn't come here to drop a note
and take off. I came here to try and find someone to *work* with, as a
team on various projects.

"And BTW, I am not a "new programmer". I have almost 40 years of
programming
experience. And yes, I can command a six figure salary."

That's nice Jerry. I'm happy for you. And I never said you were a "new
programmer". Just out of curiousity though, why would you be earning a
six-figure sal and be sitting around here hasseling some (jerk?) like
me? You should be sipping mai-tais with some hot babe chilling next to
you. Unless of course you're giving me a hard time, while sipping on a
mai-tai with some hot babe chilling next to you... Then I'd understand.

I really don't understand what it was that I said that turned what
seemed like a cool idea into a bad one. I can understand everyone's
defensive action after I barked back at Jerry's intial response, but
look back over the first 4 posts. Of course this might be a waste of
time, since you guys are obviously now biased towards me.

How was I supposed to know everyone here were "serious people (aka this
group)" that would get pissed at me for making a simple inquery? I've
been recruiting the same way for a good while, and so far have some
pretty skilled people on the team. I've also had my share of this same
situation here. People making snap judgments, rather than taking a
second to ask a question or two to clarify something.

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11**********************@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups. com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I really don't understand what it was that I said that turned what
seemed like a cool idea into a bad one. I can understand everyone's
defensive action after I barked back at Jerry's intial response, but
look back over the first 4 posts. Of course this might be a waste of
time, since you guys are obviously now biased towards me.

If we were biased towards you, you wouldn't be seeing any replies.

I can hear a MAC truck coming...
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Jerry Stuckle]

Visionary wrote:

"I should note that this is not a paid position, though I would not
rule
out possible future earnings if the goals I have set for AVLabs Design
reaches fruition."

Sounds a lot different from:

"Join our team - maybe you'll get paid, maybe you won't"
How so? In either case, you're inviting someone to join your team. And telling
them there probably isn't any money involved - but maybe, perhaps, there's an
off chance there might be.

That's where I was stating that this wasn't a job. Not a job, but there
is a chance that money could get involved at a later time. I'm not
some peon asking someone to come and wash my armpits for free. I didn't
come here to start any fights. And I didn't come here to drop a note
and take off. I came here to try and find someone to *work* with, as a
team on various projects.

The "teaser". Every week I see people wanting experienced programmers to donate
their time to some project which doesn't pay. At least you're one step above
the "we'll give you a share in the company" person. You aren't promising
something in the future.
"And BTW, I am not a "new programmer". I have almost 40 years of
programming
experience. And yes, I can command a six figure salary."

That's nice Jerry. I'm happy for you. And I never said you were a "new
programmer". Just out of curiousity though, why would you be earning a
six-figure sal and be sitting around here hasseling some (jerk?) like
me? You should be sipping mai-tais with some hot babe chilling next to
you. Unless of course you're giving me a hard time, while sipping on a
mai-tai with some hot babe chilling next to you... Then I'd understand.

I hang around here because I enjoy helping people, that's why. But there are
also a lot of people who think newsgroups are a way to get free programming time.

I enjoy helping those who try to help themselves.
I really don't understand what it was that I said that turned what
seemed like a cool idea into a bad one. I can understand everyone's
defensive action after I barked back at Jerry's intial response, but
look back over the first 4 posts. Of course this might be a waste of
time, since you guys are obviously now biased towards me.

You posted an inappropriate message in the wrong group. This group is for PHP
programmers to help each other with PHP programming problems.
How was I supposed to know everyone here were "serious people (aka this
group)" that would get pissed at me for making a simple inquery? I've
been recruiting the same way for a good while, and so far have some
pretty skilled people on the team. I've also had my share of this same
situation here. People making snap judgments, rather than taking a
second to ask a question or two to clarify something.

Read before you post. Get the flavor of the group.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Bent Stigsen]

Visionary wrote:

I agree accessibility should be a concern during the process of
developing a website. And I agree I haven't been around here long. I
agree with most of what's been said honestly. So far though I can see
the welcoming comittee here isn't so... Welcome.
The welcoming committee only respond to things like "Hi, I am new here" or
similar. Posting a recruitment for people to join some team of yours, as
your very first post, does not warrant a cuddly hug.

There is a general tendency of quid pro quo. In that, if you show interest
in the group and its ideals, then the group might show interest in you, and
in any case will be much more lenient to what is perceived as breach of
proper conduct.

I can tell when people want others to bow down to them, and
acknoweledge their status and accomplishments. I can tell by not doing
it, and the type of responses one gets. So far I've been shown that
everyone here is bright, and cocky. Only judgements and sour critiques
(true as they may be) have been passed. No "Hey that looks nice", "I
think I know a couple people who might be interested", etc. Not that I
want that, just noting a fact that fits in with the judgement I'm now
passing.
You are not being very fair in your judgment. You can't expect people to
give what you *don't* ask for, and then use it to make judgment.

The first reply was pretty unwelcoming. The rest of the comments were
belittling in subtle ways. It appears I've encroached on "hostile"
territory. True as it may be that you guys would help others when they
have a PHP problem, you sure don't know how to show manners to
newcomers. I guess you have enough members here, and you don't really
care anymore about new people.
What? You get a bit of a cold shoulder, then conclude we are some weird
cranky people, and assume we are like that towards other people as well.

Funny that I simply came here to see if anyone would be interested in
joining a team, and instead the hounds pounce on me like I was a
burglar in the night. Guess I'll try elsewhere, and if that fails I'll
have to take on more tasks.

Thanks for your time, and the helpful thoughts you shared.

Regardless how you feel about the criticism you have gotten, agreeing with
it or not, it is still a reflection of how people might react in places
where certain rules of etiquette apply. Whether you like it or not, what
you want or think is utterly irrelevant, since you're just some random John
Smith. Implying people are narcissistic, judgmental, badmannered, or
whatever, just because you don't get gratification, is in itself breach of
etiquette, and only makes things worse.
Same thing apply in the real world. If you walk into some strangers house,
and they tell you to take off your shoes, you *don't* start arguing that it
is a stupid rule, that the carpet is ugly anyway, that they aren't being
very hospitable or being jerks. If you do, you will find yourself escorted
out or perhaps get yourself a punch smack in the kisser.

So in all seriousness, if you want better response here or somewhere else,
do take some time in getting to know the community you choose to step into.

--
/Bent

[Default User]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Visionary wrote:

I really don't understand what it was that I said that turned what
seemed like a cool idea into a bad one.

You posted an inappropriate message in the wrong group. This group
is for PHP programmers to help each other with PHP programming
problems.
Which is true of most programming groups. What I tell these job
posters, whether paid or not, is to think it through. How people out
there are looking for programmers? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000?

Should all these people be posting ads to the newsgroup? Would there be
room for anything else?
Read before you post. Get the flavor of the group.

Still the single best usenet advice out there. Go through a month's
posts and see if you find any similar ones. Still confused? Post a
small clarification request message.

Brian

[Visionary]

Well... Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the tips, and I concede. I
apologise for my backlashing, and for my ignorance. I am humbled by the
willingness to share and the patience to give me the scoop on how
things work around here (as well as elsewhere). To be honest,
everything said so far is common sense and I have heard myself say the
same things to others.

As such I am that much more humbled. Before I had come here I had
"lurked" a bit in other groups, and what I saw as mostly spam. Lots of
it really. That coupled with no prior Usenet experience, led to my
initial attitude. I understand the logic of etiquette and practice it
religously actually.

My initial impression of Usenet (as compared to forums, irc, etc) was
that it was just a quick place to drop notes, and nobody really takes
notice except for experienced users or people seeking help. I see now
that Usenet can make host to communities just as robust as forums or
irc.

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows). I worked for a design firm for a year, and became a partner in
the company (it was small, less than 10 people). I later left to start
my own company. I've been struggeling to get on my feet ever since. I
had 3 people on the team at one time, but they were kids who weren't
really interested (more interested in partying all the time) and
lacking experience.

So I decided I should make a team working on small, free and fun
projects. This way I could get to know them more before committing to
contracts, payrolls, etc. The plan is so far working well. The current
members of the team understand how things are going to play out, and
are supportive and excited about it all. They too have experienced some
of the trials I have.

All in all it's been a rough ride. Of course this was expected, and
things wouldn't feel right it weren't. I leave now with a thanks, and a
warm handshake to all of you. You are good people in my book.

[william.clarke]

Visionary wrote:

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows). I worked for a design firm for a year, and became a partner in
the company (it was small, less than 10 people). I later left to start
my own company. I've been struggeling to get on my feet ever since. I
had 3 people on the team at one time, but they were kids who weren't
really interested (more interested in partying all the time) and
lacking experience.

Hi Nathan, welcome to the comp.lang.php groups. I hope we can help you
with any PHP questions you may have and I also hope your next thread
won't cause such a firestorm of responses. You made the mistake of
mentioning one of my pet hates, so I was probably a little too vehement
in my response to your posts...

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Visionary wrote:
<snip>

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows).
In college, most of the people learn sort of literacy--but not
education. World's great people like Edison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison>, A. R. Rahman have no
college experience either. Your 6 years experience shouldn't have to be
overlooked; for me it's much better than 40 years and sort of.
I worked for a design firm for a year, and became a partner in
the company (it was small, less than 10 people). I later left to start
my own company. I've been struggeling to get on my feet ever since. I
had 3 people on the team at one time, but they were kids who weren't
really interested (more interested in partying all the time) and
lacking experience.

<snip>

Sometime, instead of taking "employees" if you take "partners", it
will work. I'll strongly suggest you to check the following links as
they might help you much or at least give you energy:
1. How to Start a Startup <http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html>
2. How to be a Programmer: A Short, Comprehensive, and Personal
Summary <http://samizdat.mines.edu/howto/HowToBeAProgrammer.html>

If you're new to Usenet, you might also need to check:
1. The Basics of Usenet
<http://groups.google.com/support/bin/static.py?page=basics.html>
2. Top-posting <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting>

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

[Visionary]

Hey thanks Rajesh. Those are useful links, I'll check them out for sure.

[Rex Karz]

Visionary wrote:

... [drivelsnip] ...>
As for my design skills... True they might be lacking, but I believe
the problems anybody may have with the site is on their end. I'm not
conforming to some public standard of white background/black text. I'm
not aiming for blind people. I designed that site with my monitors
brightness at 15 (out of 100) and contrast all the way up. I had over
30 people beta test the site and give me suggestions and critiques.
Whew! ... I took a look at yer site too.
Really pretty bad.
You completely left out about 20% of the male population. -- those
who have color deficieint vision, like me.
Your site is unusable.
-- Font too small.
-- Color sux.
-- No content.

So, don't go all arrogance and defensive on us here.
Pay attention, SFB. Maybe you'll learn something.

BTW, I work for $100/hour. Take it or leave it.
...
The AVDev site is for... Software development. Particularly game
development. ...

Game development, $200/hr.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Visionary wrote:

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows). I worked for a design firm for a year, and became a partner in
the company (it was small, less than 10 people). I later left to start
my own company. I've been struggeling to get on my feet ever since. I
had 3 people on the team at one time, but they were kids who weren't
really interested (more interested in partying all the time) and
lacking experience.

It won't be mentioned again! And welcome; we have a great group of people here,
ready to help each other out.
So I decided I should make a team working on small, free and fun
projects. This way I could get to know them more before committing to
contracts, payrolls, etc. The plan is so far working well. The current
members of the team understand how things are going to play out, and
are supportive and excited about it all. They too have experienced some
of the trials I have.

Sounds like fun.
All in all it's been a rough ride. Of course this was expected, and
things wouldn't feel right it weren't. I leave now with a thanks, and a
warm handshake to all of you. You are good people in my book.

Sorry for the rough ride. Hopefully it will get better. But don't leave - come
in, sit down and have a cup/glass of your favorite beverage. Smoking is not
allowed here, but if you feel the need you can always visit one of the MS
newsgroups :-).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Visionary]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Sorry for the rough ride. Hopefully it will get better. But don't leave - come
in, sit down and have a cup/glass of your favorite beverage. Smoking is not
allowed here, but if you feel the need you can always visit one of the MS
newsgroups :-).
Hey thanks Jerry, I appreciate it. I will definitely be around, to bug
you guys with questions now and again :).
Rex Karz wrote:Whew! ... I took a look at yer site too.
Really pretty bad.
You completely left out about 20% of the male population. -- those
who have color deficieint vision, like me.
Your site is unusable.
-- Font too small.
-- Color sux.
-- No content. So, don't go all arrogance and defensive on us here.
Pay attention, SFB. Maybe you'll learn something. BTW, I work for $100/hour. Take it or leave it.

I think I'm going to leave it. Thanks for your critiques- though I
think we come full circle to rudeness again. I don't remember showing
arrogance. Defensiveness perhaps, but not arrogance. If I came off that
way I apologize.

I thought I already stated this, but the site isn't public yet, and is
in more of an "alpha". After talking with you guys, I decided I was
going to rework it from the ground up, to be XHTML 1.0 Strict
compliant. Well, to be honest I had decided that when a friend shunned
me about this very thing.

I remember reading a long article, about not being able to please
everyone when it comes to design. Out of the 4k or so unique hits I've
gotten that returned any feedback, I've only had about 10 or so
complain about text being small, or the colors being hard to see.
Still, I plan on having a CSS style selector. The default layout would
be much like the one up now.

Rex- have you seen phong.com? I'm assuming this guy is a bad designer
too. I've seen his site with very small text, with all text shades of
blue, hard to read. But I wouldn't call him a bad designer. And he
works for $80 an hour. And he's a nice guy.

I'm not trying to make a mainstream site for millions of people to see.
I have a target audience. That target audience has had no problems with
the site so far. By the way, what does SFB stand for? I hope it's not
what I think it is...

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11**********************@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups. com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I thought I already stated this, but the site isn't public yet, and is
in more of an "alpha". After talking with you guys, I decided I was
going to rework it from the ground up, to be XHTML 1.0 Strict
compliant. Well, to be honest I had decided that when a friend shunned
me about this very thing.
Are you using XML? If not then HTML 4.01 STRICT might be more
appropriate.
I remember reading a long article, about not being able to please
everyone when it comes to design. Out of the 4k or so unique hits I've
gotten that returned any feedback, I've only had about 10 or so
complain about text being small, or the colors being hard to see.
Still, I plan on having a CSS style selector. The default layout would
be much like the one up now.
Most people don't complain or give you feedback. They just go
elsewhere. People who complain should be treasured, they are helping
you improve. From an accessibility point of view you need to start
with the proper structure, content first, then html markup, then style.
A high contrast style sheet is a fine idea, but not absolutely
necessary. what you should not do is take choice away from the user,
such as by trying to fix font sizes.
Rex- have you seen phong.com? I'm assuming this guy is a bad designer
too. I've seen his site with very small text, with all text shades of
blue, hard to read. But I wouldn't call him a bad designer. And he
works for $80 an hour. And he's a nice guy.
How come all the Americans I work for plead poverty? :-}
I'm not trying to make a mainstream site for millions of people to see.
I have a target audience. That target audience has had no problems with
the site so far.

You don't know that.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Visionary]

Geoff Berrow wrote:

Are you using XML? If not then HTML 4.01 STRICT might be more
appropriate.
Ah, good point. I should get comfortable with XML, just because. The
game project I'm working on uses XML for various things, along with
Python (might change to YAML).
Most people don't complain or give you feedback. They just go
elsewhere. People who complain should be treasured, they are helping
you improve. From an accessibility point of view you need to start
with the proper structure, content first, then html markup, then style.
A high contrast style sheet is a fine idea, but not absolutely
necessary. what you should not do is take choice away from the user,
such as by trying to fix font sizes.
I totally agree. I don't remember using a fixed-font size though, I
just went to the site and changed the font size via the browser menu,
as well as CTRL+Mousewheel just fine. Or were you meaning something
else?
How come all the Americans I work for plead poverty? :-}
I wouldn't know... I've heard filthy rich people say they were poor. I
think they find it humorous :P

You don't know that.

Good point... I need to think about these things more often. Thanks for
the good tips guys, they will truly help me out alot.

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11**********************@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups .com> from
Visionary contained the following:

Most people don't complain or give you feedback. They just go
elsewhere. People who complain should be treasured, they are helping
you improve. From an accessibility point of view you need to start
with the proper structure, content first, then html markup, then style.
A high contrast style sheet is a fine idea, but not absolutely
necessary. what you should not do is take choice away from the user,
such as by trying to fix font sizes.

I totally agree. I don't remember using a fixed-font size though, I
just went to the site and changed the font size via the browser menu,
as well as CTRL+Mousewheel just fine. Or were you meaning something
else?

With what browser? In IE, they are fixed. See for yourself, this is
from your CSS
..newsArticle{
color: #B5B5B5;
font-size: 11px;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

..newsDetails{
color: #897600;
font-size: 11px;
font-weight: bold;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

..tutorialText{
color: #A8A8A8;
font-size: 11px;
font-weight: bold;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

I can't see many systems not having Arial, but having Verdana. Unless
maybe the system you are developing doesn't have Arial, which is why you
have sized the fonts so small. Verdana is a large face.

The family should also look like this for proper graceful degradation:
font-family: Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;
Though personally I'd go for something like
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Visionary]

Geoff Berrow wrote:

With what browser? In IE, they are fixed. See for yourself, this is
from your CSS
.newsArticle{
color: #B5B5B5;
font-size: 11px;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

.newsDetails{
color: #897600;
font-size: 11px;
font-weight: bold;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

.tutorialText{
color: #A8A8A8;
font-size: 11px;
font-weight: bold;
font-family: Arial, Verdana;
}

I can't see many systems not having Arial, but having Verdana. Unless
maybe the system you are developing doesn't have Arial, which is why you
have sized the fonts so small. Verdana is a large face.

The family should also look like this for proper graceful degradation:
font-family: Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;
Though personally I'd go for something like
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

Thanks for these suggestions- I've updated the css. The font sizes are
still fixed, but that will change with the next 'fully' update cycle. I
checked out how it looked with non-fixed sizes, and it looks really
nasty with the layout, clashes with the whole pixel/micro style going.
I may actually do a small update, to include the css style system and
make the default style having non-fixed sizes

[Bent Stigsen]

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Visionary wrote:
<snip>

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows).

In college, most of the people learn sort of literacy--but not
education. World's great people like Edison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison>, A. R. Rahman have no
college experience either. Your 6 years experience shouldn't have to be
overlooked; for me it's much better than 40 years and sort of.

Jerry only mentioned his 40 years experience because he was asked of his
"worth". And I think Nathan just did it to be informative. Education and
experience does not give weight to arguments in a discussion.

When it comes down to *personal* gain, one shouldn't fool oneself. Clearly,
40 years, much better than 6 years of experience. Some formal education is
better than no education. Both have the *potential* to give knowledge to an
individual, and as such, meaningless to be used in measurement between two
individuals. Thinking that education is overrated, because Edison didn't
need it to gain success, or that years of experience is overrated, because
Mozart composed his first work at age 5, may perhaps satisfy ones
selfesteem, if comparing oneself to others who do have education and
experience, but it is only fooling oneself, and pointless in the first
place because it doesn't "make" a person.

In the end I think it is other qualities that matters. Such as, to actually
listen to criticism, to disregard from ones pride in the hour of need, and
being able to admit to faults. Admit it to others is a plus. Doing it in
public takes extra. Actually I thought it was a bit much, but I can imagine
he felt a bit embarrassed when he wrote it.
Although we had some serious group pressure going on, I'd like to think it
is much to his own accord. Nobody could have forced him to listen, nor did
anybody demand an apology.
[snip]

--
/Bent

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Bent Stigsen wrote:

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Visionary wrote:
<snip>

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows).
In college, most of the people learn sort of literacy--but not
education. World's great people like Edison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison>, A. R. Rahman have no
college experience either. Your 6 years experience shouldn't have to be
overlooked; for me it's much better than 40 years and sort of.

Jerry only mentioned his 40 years experience because he was asked of his
"worth". And I think Nathan just did it to be informative. Education and
experience does not give weight to arguments in a discussion.

When it comes down to *personal* gain, one shouldn't fool oneself. Clearly,
40 years, much better than 6 years of experience.

I don't think, you have any personal gain here; but if you ever
had lurked here you'd find how worse is that 40 years. $age !==
$knowledge.
Some formal education is better than no education.

<snip>

I don't want to push my own doctrines and believes here. Anyway,
education is sort of instinct; you can't educate a person. To be
educated, one has to feel and "repent"; not sure, how many colleges can
"achieve" it.

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11*********************@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups. com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I
checked out how it looked with non-fixed sizes, and it looks really
nasty with the layout, clashes with the whole pixel/micro style going.
I may actually do a small update, to include the css style system and
make the default style having non-fixed sizes

Sensible browsers let you change text size anyway so you're not losing
anything. But if the design looks nasty when the type is scaled then
surely that says something about the robustness (is that a word?) of the
design solution.

As solid design solutions seems to be what you are about I think this is
a challenge you should take on. It will give you more credibility than
simply following the same me-too microfont style.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Bent Stigsen]

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Bent Stigsen wrote:

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

> Visionary wrote:
> <snip>
>> I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
>> the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
>> designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
>> shows).
>
> In college, most of the people learn sort of literacy--but not
> education. World's great people like Edison
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison>, A. R. Rahman have no
> college experience either. Your 6 years experience shouldn't have to be
> overlooked; for me it's much better than 40 years and sort of.

Jerry only mentioned his 40 years experience because he was asked of his
"worth". And I think Nathan just did it to be informative. Education and
experience does not give weight to arguments in a discussion.

When it comes down to *personal* gain, one shouldn't fool oneself.
Clearly, 40 years, much better than 6 years of experience.

I don't think, you have any personal gain here; but if you ever
had lurked here you'd find how worse is that 40 years. $age !==
$knowledge.

So how does that make sense. If you look at a person after 6 years of
experience, then again after 40 years of experience. Has he become less
knowledgeable?

Well, until you hit senility, but that generally comes after retirement.

Some formal education is better than no education.

<snip>

I don't want to push my own doctrines and believes here. Anyway,
education is sort of instinct; you can't educate a person. To be
educated, one has to feel and "repent"; not sure, how many colleges can
"achieve" it.

I am not sure we have the same definition of education or instinct. I am
well aware that knowledge and wisdom can't be beaten into a person, but
educations usually is based on years and years of experience and/or
development made by other people before. Since it was thought out by people
before, there is no reason why some person can do it by himself, but
usually core ideas can be extracted and easily passed on.

As I said, education in itself doesn't make a person, but at a personal
level it *can* be a shortcut to a higher level of experience.

Newsgroups is a different aspect of the same thing. Knowledge and experience
is passed from person(s) to persons(s).

--
/Bent

[Jerry Stuckle]

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Bent Stigsen wrote:

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Visionary wrote:
<snip>

I apologise again, and would like to extend a more formal greeting to
the community. So, hello- I am Nathan. I have been a web/graphic
designer for 6 years, with no college experience (which probably
shows).

In college, most of the people learn sort of literacy--but not
education. World's great people like Edison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison>, A. R. Rahman have no
college experience either. Your 6 years experience shouldn't have to be
overlooked; for me it's much better than 40 years and sort of.
Jerry only mentioned his 40 years experience because he was asked of his
"worth". And I think Nathan just did it to be informative. Education and
experience does not give weight to arguments in a discussion.

When it comes down to *personal* gain, one shouldn't fool oneself. Clearly,
40 years, much better than 6 years of experience.

I don't think, you have any personal gain here; but if you ever
had lurked here you'd find how worse is that 40 years. $age !==
$knowledge.

Only to people with a few years of experience who think they know it all. Some
of the worst "problems" I've had when managing projects is from programmers who
have a few years of experience and think they know it all.

Don't believe me? Just look at some of the sloppy programming around - not due
to lack of knowledge, but lack of care/attention. Look at the bloated code
running around.

And look at some of the "tutorials" you see on the internet, supposedly
suggesting "good" programming techniques.

Some formal education is better than no education.
<snip>

I don't want to push my own doctrines and believes here. Anyway,
education is sort of instinct; you can't educate a person. To be
educated, one has to feel and "repent"; not sure, how many colleges can
"achieve" it.

Completely disagree. Education is not an instinct. Agreed you can't educate a
person. The person has to be willing to put forth some effort and learn. But
it also takes the availability of educational materials and instructors.

I'll tell you what. I need this new site programmed. It must use the wydkiwty
language for all dynamic pages. Sorry, no educational materials (including
language reference material) are available. You'll have to figure it out
yourself. But it's an easy language - you should have no trouble picking it up.
--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Visionary]

Sorry if this counts as a top post, quite alot to quote here :)

If I had the opportunity to snap my fingers and *magically* have 40
years experience, I wouldn't mind. Now, 40 years of experience with
only having done a project here and there, compared to 6 years
experience working full time on projects would obviously yield a
difference in knowledge. My 6 years of 'experience' sadly comes from a
variety of sources- online tutorials, a few books, and a handful of
helpful people who have shared their knowledge. I'm sure if my 6 years
of experience came from going to college, I would be a much better
designer/programmer.

I agree with Jerry on the point of online tutorials not really giving
much. It's frustrating to someone who can't afford college (at least at
this point...) and sometimes doesn't have the option or leisure of
buying a really good book on a particular subject. One thing I've
noticed about online tutorials is that you can find the same tutorials
in several places, each using a different style/approach to achieve the
same end product/effect. At first, you would think this was a good
thing. Not if you're a beginner. It causes confusion. Take for example
some of the PHP tutorials I've read- a very simple thing. Some explain
to do this, to start a php file:

<?
php code
?>

While others do this:

<?php
php code
?>

And they do so, without explaining the why/how/when. Personally I
always start out with <?php. Sure, these tutorials can definitely help
a lowly noob get on his feet, but they sure as hell aren't going to
make him understand what he's doing. I think this ties into 6 years vs
40 years experience. 40 years of messing with code would yield a much
higher understanding of why you would use one method or another.

PS- how do you do the -show quote- bit?

[Bent Stigsen]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
[snip]

Only to people with a few years of experience who think they know it all.
Some of the worst "problems" I've had when managing projects is from
programmers who have a few years of experience and think they know it all.

Don't believe me? Just look at some of the sloppy programming around -
not due to lack of knowledge, but lack of care/attention. Look at the
bloated code running around.

I once came across an article of a small psychological study on that
subject. If I remember correctly, the theory was that skills within a field
goes hand in hand with the ability assess quality within that field, which
in turn affects the assessment of performance of others but also of
oneself. Basically, poor skills, leads to inflated self-assessment.

Not that I understood all the psychological mumbojumbo, but quite humourous
article as I recall. Their final remark was something to the effect, that
they felt confident that they had done a good job showing the correlation
between skill and self-assessment, but they had a terrible fear that their
confidence was due to incompetence.

I guess sometimes ignorance really is bliss :)
[snip]

--
/Bent

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <11**********************@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups .com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I'm sure if my 6 years
of experience came from going to college, I would be a much better
designer/programmer.

Maybe, but probably not. You don't get much real world experience in
college. I should know, I'm a lecturer.

Six years working for real clients would trump everything.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Bent Stigsen]

Geoff Berrow wrote:

Message-ID: <11**********************@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups .com> from
Visionary contained the following:

I'm sure if my 6 years
of experience came from going to college, I would be a much better
designer/programmer.

Maybe, but probably not. You don't get much real world experience in
college. I should know, I'm a lecturer.

What kind of college are we talking about. My dictionary says "small
university". I'm not sure what that implies. Is it anything like a regular
university, where you get bachelor/master degrees?
[snip]

--
/Bent

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: <14****************@thevoid.dk> from Bent Stigsen contained
the following:

Maybe, but probably not. You don't get much real world experience in
college. I should know, I'm a lecturer.

What kind of college are we talking about. My dictionary says "small
university". I'm not sure what that implies. Is it anything like a regular
university, where you get bachelor/master degrees?

I don't think it matters. You can't beat real world experience.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[eddy147]

Hello Nathan,

I've com across some sites that helped me over the years:

http://www.php.net
For the most recent releases of PHP

http://www.css-creator.com
To make sites with any DTD you want, how strict you choose it. Before
starting a website, I use the CSS Layout Generator (menu on the right)
for my layout.

Greetings and good luck with your company.
Eddy

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Bent Stigsen wrote:
<snip>

So how does that make sense. If you look at a person after 6 years of
experience, then again after 40 years of experience. Has he become less
knowledgeable?

Well, until you hit senility, but that generally comes after retirement.
If we become knowledgeable and diligent because of the number of
days/hours we live, our brain will blow up.

Everyone needs some kind of experience and exposure to do something
well. Say, for example, to eat using fork, you need experience--but a
person who use fork for years cannot directly throw the food to his
stomach.

<snip> usually core ideas can be extracted and easily passed on.

As I said, education in itself doesn't make a person, but at a personal
level it *can* be a shortcut to a higher level of experience.

Newsgroups is a different aspect of the same thing. Knowledge and experience
is passed from person(s) to persons(s).

By attending a college, a person may no't become serious; you
can still attend college and still be a playboy---and similarly you can
be educated without attending the college. Sometime there are more
chances that the person who doesn't attend college will be more
rational and educated than one who do so as he is getting years of
repetitive blabby.

YMMV.

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Visionary wrote:

Sorry if this counts as a top post, quite alot to quote here :)

If I had the opportunity to snap my fingers and *magically* have 40
years experience, I wouldn't mind. Now, 40 years of experience with
only having done a project here and there, compared to 6 years
experience working full time on projects would obviously yield a
difference in knowledge. My 6 years of 'experience' sadly comes from a
variety of sources- online tutorials, a few books, and a handful of
helpful people who have shared their knowledge. I'm sure if my 6 years
of experience came from going to college, I would be a much better
designer/programmer.

I agree with Jerry on the point of online tutorials not really giving
much. It's frustrating to someone who can't afford college (at least at
this point...) and sometimes doesn't have the option or leisure of
buying a really good book on a particular subject.

<snip>

Oline tutorials and getting knowledge over the 'net is much
better, IMHO as you'd start thinking globally than locally. At least in
PHP, you may not find a book for which contents are not found online
somewhere.

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

[Bent Stigsen]

Geoff Berrow wrote:

Message-ID: <14****************@thevoid.dk> from Bent Stigsen contained
the following:

Maybe, but probably not. You don't get much real world experience in
college. I should know, I'm a lecturer.

What kind of college are we talking about. My dictionary says "small
university". I'm not sure what that implies. Is it anything like a regular
university, where you get bachelor/master degrees?

I don't think it matters. You can't beat real world experience.

I wasn't really going to contend that. Programming can be a very I know a
few who do very well without pretty much any formal education, one of them
smoked so much pot that he hardly got through highschool (or whats
equivalent I think). Much programming really is just hammer to nail.

But I don't think it is allways that "simple". He is at the mercy of the
jobs he gets. Lousy jobs and colleagues would reflect much more on the
quality of his experience, than if he from the beginning had learned some
basic skills and ways to structure ones work.

And then there is the thing with communication. If he wants/gets a job as a
programmer in a highly technical domain, some mathematical background would
definitely be nice. Some technical problems more or less requires a higher
mathematical level of knowledge.

Personally I like the diversity in knowledge you get (at least can get) from
the higher levels of education. Sure you can just buy a book and read, but
in school you get things in the right order, so you have a good chance to
understand what you read, and you get verified that you did understand at
an exam. If you don't understand, you can allways ask the teacher.
--
/Bent

[Bent Stigsen]

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:

Bent Stigsen wrote:
<snip>

So how does that make sense. If you look at a person after 6 years of
experience, then again after 40 years of experience. Has he become less
knowledgeable?

Well, until you hit senility, but that generally comes after retirement.
If we become knowledgeable and diligent because of the number of
days/hours we live, our brain will blow up.

I don't think that have happened yet. I know neural networks with a fixed
set of neurons and fixed wiring can degrade in various ways with continual
added information, but our brain is luckily far more complicated and
dynamic.

Everyone needs some kind of experience and exposure to do something
well. Say, for example, to eat using fork, you need experience--but a
person who use fork for years cannot directly throw the food to his
stomach.
I think it is a bit too simplified analogy. But to follow you analogy, the
more experienced person will know what to eat and not to eat, yet more
experienced person may know *when* to eat the different kinds of food and
how to mix them so they taste good.

<snip>

usually core ideas can be extracted and easily passed on.

As I said, education in itself doesn't make a person, but at a personal
level it *can* be a shortcut to a higher level of experience.

Newsgroups is a different aspect of the same thing. Knowledge and
experience is passed from person(s) to persons(s).

By attending a college, a person may no't become serious; you
can still attend college and still be a playboy---and similarly you can
be educated without attending the college. Sometime there are more
chances that the person who doesn't attend college will be more
rational and educated than one who do so as he is getting years of
repetitive blabby.

I never said it would change a person, obviously it will not make some lazy
sob into a super efficient person. And I didn't either say it is not
something one can do without. It is an option.

I not absolutely sure what the equivalence of college is in my country, but
if it is the stage after highschool, then sure it has a lot of "blabby",
But I think the intention is to give a basic foundation of common
knowledge, not as such being practical.

Higher educations are more targeted. It is simply a matter of getting
knowledge, so that one doesn't have to reinvent everything.

--
/Bent

[Bent Stigsen]

Bent Stigsen wrote:

Geoff Berrow wrote:

Message-ID: <14****************@thevoid.dk> from Bent Stigsen contained
the following:

Maybe, but probably not. You don't get much real world experience in
college. I should know, I'm a lecturer.

What kind of college are we talking about. My dictionary says "small
university". I'm not sure what that implies. Is it anything like a
regular university, where you get bachelor/master degrees?

I don't think it matters. You can't beat real world experience.

I wasn't really going to contend that. Programming can be a very I know a
few who do very well without pretty much any formal education, one of them
smoked so much pot that he hardly got through highschool (or whats
equivalent I think). Much programming really is just hammer to nail.

Gaah, forgot I hadn't finished that. Couldn't quite find the right words.
What I was trying to say, programming can be very like the profession of
blacksmiths, carpenters, et.c. people who build things with their hands.
Instead of metal or wood, it's chunks of code put together into modules,
modules together into applications and to a whole system.

--
/Bent