What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

So? What does that have to do with the original topic - whether an
IDE is better than a text editor or not?

It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with many
people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment, which
then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific situation.

So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only work
in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.

But to respond to your comment. HTML help is fine - but do you have a
search engine which can search all the web pages?

Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.

Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
files, for instance. You need a web server, after updating pages you
need to have HtDlg respider the pages. And you need to bring up a
browser to use it.

Windows help files are more responsive since they don't require server
resources (other than a shared directory for the help files). They run
completely on the user's desktop. Compiling the help files is easier
and faster than spidering pages, especially as the project grows.

I know there are some out there - but the free ones which will run on
an intranet aren't that great a quality, while the good quality ones
are expensive.

Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search engine
is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...

Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for everything!

Yes, there are some Unix projects out there. And there are developers
who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But virtually all of my development
is done on Windows with a NFS mount from the Linux machine. It's then
an easy job to make the project. And although I don't do much Unix
programming, I don't think I've seen ANY projects which don't have
Windows on the majority of the desktops.

Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
may be some people who are not on Windows.

Sure. But not on the projects I work on. Big difference. Note that I
don't dictate the use of windows - it's the environment which is already
there before I come in.
As for free Windows web search engines
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...en-US:official
And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and HtDig
to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those simply
because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW My chosen
desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am cognizant and
relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the light and utility in
not locking people into one OS over the other).

Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else where
they can be shared.

And again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being used.

In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
few people who *don't* use Windows.

But I'm sure there are some - and the Windows help files don't work
there. But they work for every project in which I've been involved.

Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done my
isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself into
a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace open
standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix, Linux, Mac,
and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.

Yep. And see my arguments above.

This is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows.
There is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!

Remember - I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for me.
I am *not* telling you what you should use.

Don't tell me what I should use. You don't know my customers. You
don't know my environment. And you don't know my needs.

I know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!

Just typical of "I know your job better than you do!".

Forget it. This conversation is at an end.
--
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Jerry Stuckle
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js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 04:28:

No, my original point was related to the original part of this thread.
You're trying to change that.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
If your post was in response to the original part of the thread, then
you should've posted it as a reply there. If you post it as a reply to
an unrelated branch (i.e. one that digressed, like NG discussions tend
to do), you can hardly be surprised when someone says "What the hell?
How does that relate to what I just said?".

You should read back through this branch. I did respond to the original
part of this thread. Since then you've tried to change the direction.

Yep - and each level brings a new layer of complexity.
Context-sensitive help is not always needed - unless you're lazy or
incompetent.

You're right, if it's *needed*, in the sense of "can't live without it".
However, IMO, it's always nice to have a tool which saves time, and
minimises distraction from the task in hand - actually putting code into
the editor.

That's your opinion, which is fine. I find the auto code completion to
be a distraction.

I'm a touch typist. There are lots of times I'm typing while looking at
the doc - not the screen. So when the editor auto completes code for
me, I need to backspace and re-edit the code.

Additionally, when I have to choose from a list of functions, I find it
takes longer for me to stop typing, select the function from the list,
then continue typing than it does to just type the function name myself.
Even basics like auto-indent and syntax highlighting aren't *needed*,
but I'd be pretty pissed off if I had to work without them.

I agree the auto indent is nice, which is why I use textpad.
--
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js*******@attglobal.net
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[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah but they surely can, easily and cheaply with HtDig.

No, it's not as easy as Windows help files. Also not as fast.

Google searches billions of web pages in seconds. When a Windows help
file can achieve that same speed give me a ring.

So? What does Google searching billions of pages (using hundreds of
servers) have to do with it?

HTML is good for a lot of things - but it's NOT the answer to life,
the universe and everything!

You're just afraid of it because you don't understand it...

I understand it completely. I've probably been writing HTML longer than
you have - since 1992 or so. And I continue to write HTML as well as XML.

And no - it is NOT the answer to live, the universe and everything!

But you obviously have tunnel vision. You think your way is the best
for everyone. My statement is that it is not. And the way I do it
works best for me and the projects I work on.

Sorry. This conversation is at an end.

--
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Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah that would be wonderful. But in my some 25 years in the business I
don't think I've ever actually seen that in practice! Then again I do
more admin/build/release stuff... (And surprisingly enough, even at
that late stage of the game, rarely do I see design docs that go to
the level of defining function names and parameters... Sad but true)

Then you're Project Manager is not managing the project properly.

Then my Project Managers, from over 25 years - at companies as big and
diverse as HP, Sun, Cisco, Amerquest, Broadcom and a plethora of others
(look up my resume...) have all not been managing their projects
properly. This does say something very loudly and clearly - what you
describe is definitely not the norm. Indeed what you describe is pie in
the sky rarity!

Yep, I find that very common in the business world today. Just because
you're big doesn't mean you can manage projects properly. I saw the
same thing when I worked for IBM. It's one of the reasons I left IBM.
They taught me project management, and I worked on a couple of projects
where it was used quite effectively. Then I got stuck on one which was
doomed to fail because it wasn't being managed properly. I had the
chance to get out, so I took it.

What percentage of these projects were late, over budget and/or never
got finished at all? And how many were finished but didn't provide the
functionality required? Quite frankly, the result is a surprisingly
high percentage.

This, BTW, includes the project I was on when I left IBM. It was
supposed to be a six month project. It actually should have taken less
than that. But after two years it was canceled.

But some companies are seeing the light. And those projects are
succeeding. They are on time, within budget and successful.
Mind you I agree with the philosophy and personally that's the way I
would do it. However, and again, that is not the way I've ever seen it
done.

That's where as a consultant I have an advantage. If the customer wants
me, it's on my terms. And my track record shows I can get the work done.
Finally, my Project Managers as of late are not really projects managers
as per se, rather they are clients.

Clients are not project managers. They are clients. Two entirely
different things!

I learned about project management when I was working for IBM back in
the 80's.

Break out the blue suit and tie... ;-)

You forgot the white shirt! :-)

Since then I've been both a programmer and a PM. When I've been a PM,
the documentation is complete long before programming starts (and yes,
I get the programmers involved in the design). And I've been a
programmer on projects where the design is done properly. Every one
was completed on time

Given enough time that is. Unfortunately businesses do not really have
that kind of time anymore. Models like the Open Source model beat the
pants off of the structured design everything first then start coding
methodologies of the past...

Proper project management *shortens* the time it takes to complete a
project - the bigger the project, the more time it saves.

When the design is done ahead of time, there is less rewriting because
other code changed. And every time you have to rewrite the code, you
increase the chance of errors creeping into the code, which means more
test/diagnosis/correction time. It also increases the number of errors
which can make it to the customer.

and within budget, given reasonable time and budgetary constraints.

Aye there's the rub - "reasonable time". Which is way longer than is
acceptable these days. Why do you think IBM fell from on high? Because
different more flexible and a lot faster ways of doing things developed
and IBM didn't keep pace. The only reason IBM is back at all is that
they have actively changed their culture and stringentness.

All the more reason to do proper management.

And no, IBM didn't keep pace. They didn't realize the effect their PC
would have on the rest of the world. They made major missteps in their
target audience. They did a huge amount of things wrong.

And change orders were handled by modifying the design - which showed
exactly how it would affect other parts of the project.

I've also worked on ones where PM wasn't properly done. Some were on
time, but most were late. They also had more bugs and change orders
were harder to implement.

The track records of the big companies has not agreed with your assessment.

As I said - just because you're big doesn't mean you do it right. And
the track record of the big companies has shown that it has been done.

I used to do a lot of training - both in programming and project
management. Most of my customers were from the Fortune 1000 list. And
virtually every class where I asked if they had projects which were
overdue, over budget, etc., I had people raise their hands. And the
common thread was that the projects were not being managed.

I actually had a manager tell me one time "If my programmers aren't
writing code, they aren't being productive." He completely ignored the
fact that just because they were writing code *did not* mean they were
being productive! It meant they were writing code.

But without direction, the manager had no idea of the code would ever be
used in a project or not. And if it was not, they weren't very
productive, were they?

It's why I get programmers involved with the design phase. They are
helping, and more importantly, they are getting a better feel for the
project as a whole. And they are being productive - they are helping to
produce the design spec they will eventually write code for.

And when it comes time to write the code, they do it more quickly and
with fewer errors because they don't have to keep going back and
rewriting it.

Of course, if you don't design the application and fly by the seat
of your pants, that's another story.
In my line of work I'm forced to do that all the time...

I've heard that before. But all but the smallest projects benefit
from a proper design.

Yes but then your contract expires early and your out on the street
begging for food. You know those grandiose ideas and methodologies look
great on paper. But the real world and real business constraints always
seem to get in way. As a contract and a businessman myself I strive to
keep the customer happy and they are always right, etc... Real world is,
while proper design, etc. is all nice, it don't happen much.

I admit, when I first started consulting, I was hungry a fair amount of
the time. But never since then. In fact, I've turned down work.
Success breeds success - and demand.

The only "real world and real business constraints" here is the thinking
of management. You need to convince them that proper management means a
more successful project. This takes proven experience, knowledge and
belief in yourself, amongst other things. And most importantly, it
takes skill in dealing with the customer.

Probably the best lesson I ever learned was to walk away from a bad
contract instead of taking it, no matter how hungry I was.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Windows help compiler - $0.

You forgot to include the cost of Windows itself!

(BTW Linux is free - yeah companies sell Linux but what they are selling
really is support not the software itself - IOW you can get Linux for
free).

Already on the system. No additional charge.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Irrelevant. We're talking about documentation for a project, not some
"random odd topic".

Not irrelevant. Google searching billions of pages - why more than
whatever documentation you or I have ever produced - and does so quite
well. The same can be applied to your own documentation...

Completely irrelevant. Google has hundreds of servers with databases,
etc. If I had the resources of Google, it would be a different story.

(Reminds me of the adage: When all you have is a hammer then every
problem looks like a nail!)

You said it. You're the one trying to force everyone to use an IDE!

Boy you are really a moron aren't you? I suggest you go back and do a
little research there bud. If you did I'm sure you would quickly find
that it is not I who is trying to force anybody to using any IDE. I'm
the guy who's against IDEs and I mentioned it last post. You, however
didn't even read that or your comprehension skills are all shot. Let me
make it clear *I DO NOT ENDORSE THE CONCEPT OF USING IDES - IN FACT I
SAY THE OPPOSITE!!!* I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on this
subject. Now that you've just proven that you are a moron wiggle out of
that one!

My mistake, then. I have you mixed up with someone else.

I'm telling you HOW I WORK AND WHAT I USE. Unlike you, I AM NOT
TELLING YOU WHAT TO USE!

I'm telling you how to play nice with others. If all you ever do is
create code in isolation and never in a group use any damn thing you
want. But when you have the attitude of "this is how I work - works
for me - and who gives a rat's ass about my coworker who is working
on the same app, needs the same documentation but doesn't use
Windows" then I have a problem with it.

And how is using a text editor not "playing nice with others"? Many
projects I've worked on use TextPad or something similar.

Huh? Are you really this dense? If you produce MS only help files for
your documented function calls then you have alienated anybody who
doesn't use Windows. Is this concept really that difficult for you to
grasp?!?

Let's see. It's internal documentation, and everyone on the project
already uses Windows. Who am I alienating?

And when I say "This is how I work" - I mean this is how the projects
I manage work. Each person is free to use his/her favorite
editor/ide/whatever. I don't force a single IDE on anyone.

Nor do I, even though you still haven't managed to understand that. We
weren't talking about editors or IDEs for that matter. We were talking
about your proprietary formated MS Help files...

OK. But as I said - it works for me.

The incompetent trying to force the more capable to conform.

Dude you're just way off base here...

Again, my apologies. Too many subthreads going here.

I use what is best for me and on my projects.

And not a single one of them used anything other than Windows? You sound
like just another MS drone to me...

Not since the late 90's. Before that I did a lot of OS/2 work.

I am definitely *not* an MS drone. The fact of life is - in the
business world in the U.S., most of the users (even programmers) use
Windows. Linux has made some inroads - but not a lot. And even those
who have Linux generally also have Windows. There are very few
Linux-only users out there.

Don't get me wrong - I wish there were more Linux users out there. I
like it myself - I have a couple of Debian machines here and a Debian
VPS at a hosting company. I like Linux. But Windows is still my main
desktop because there are so many more programs out there for it.

Yes, there are some inroads being made. StarOffice, for instance, is a
big one. As there gets to be more programs for Linux I expect to see
its usage grow.

Not at all. It's the way the whole project works.

Now who's forcing compliance?

I'm using what's already there. And using Windows help files when
everyone is already using Windows is no more "forcing compliance" than
using HTML help files is.

At some point you need to make some project-wide decisions. This is one
of mine.

Get with it. There are a lot of people in this world who are more
knowledgeable and competent than you. And a large percentage of those
people agree with me - use what works best for you.

I'm all for using what works best for you. However when parts of what
you are working on are shared by others, then to assume the mindset that
everybody else works like you is just plain wrong. You do this when you
admit to using Windows Help files which admittedly only work on Windows
right? Ergo that shared documentation is not usable by anybody who
doesn't use Windows. At this point that other person has two options:
Either user Windows like you (i.e. break the rule of use what works best
for him) or not be able to share that knowledge. The only other way out
of that dilemma is if the documentation you produced is not intended for
everybody - i.e. you are working in isolation. Which is it?
--
Music is the art which is most nigh to tears and memory. - Oscar Wilde

Again, not a problem. They're already using Windows.
--
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Remove the "x" from my email address
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JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

So? What does that have to do with the original topic - whether an
IDE is better than a text editor or not?
It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with
many people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment,
which then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific
situation.

So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only
work in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.

Ding, ding, ding! You win a prize! You finally got it (only after
several posts directly stating this!). I'm an XEmacs guy. Is that an
IDE? :-)

But to respond to your comment. HTML help is fine - but do you have
a search engine which can search all the web pages?

Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.

Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
files, for instance.

Like?
You need a web server,
Most people/companies already have a web server. Web servers like Apache
are also free (and have much utility BTW).
after updating pages you need to have HtDlg respider the pages.
One word: cron! Next invalid assumption...
And you need to bring up a browser to use it.
You need to bring up Windows help viewer to view it. Let me ask you a
question: Don't you usually have a web browser running?!?
Windows help files are more responsive since they don't require server
resources (other than a shared directory for the help files).
Oh come on! You're actually gonna try to use a "It takes 1/2 a
nanosecond more" argument?!? Exactly how much resources do you think it
takes to serve up a web page? Balance that with the fact that your
documentation is now available company wide, which promotes
communication between team members. You have a very weak argument here dude.
They run completely on the user's desktop.
So what?!?
Compiling the help files is easier and faster than spidering pages,
especially as the project grows.
And yet this help file is only available on your desktop! So how do
others view it? Oh so you pass it around, where you can then get
versionitis never mind all that useless copying...

I know there are some out there - but the free ones which will run
on an intranet aren't that great a quality, while the good quality
ones are expensive.

Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search
engine is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...

Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for
everything!

You still haven't demonstrated how it is not impressive for what we are
discussing here. You just like your windows help files and cannot see
any other way to do it because it's foreign to you. Let me ask you this:
Major applications, software and languages from Apache, Perl, PHP, and
many other applications use the web to document their products and
languages. Now if your method is so superior why didn't they choose
Windows Help Files?

Yes, there are some Unix projects out there. And there are
developers who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But virtually all of my
development is done on Windows with a NFS mount from the Linux
machine. It's then an easy job to make the project. And although I
don't do much Unix programming, I don't think I've seen ANY projects
which don't have Windows on the majority of the desktops.

Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
may be some people who are not on Windows.

Sure. But not on the projects I work on.

It's that the very definition of tunnel vision.
Big difference. Note that I don't dictate the use of windows - it's
the environment which is already there before I come in.
Again, my premise is that there are some people who are not using
Windows who will have a problem with what you propose. Additionally, how
do your Windows help files get around to other developers? You email
them (thus copying them and multiple copies often equals multiple old
copies of incompatible versions)? You put them on a share somewhere and
people reference them (and possibly copy them - after all you don't want
to take up precious server resources...) again facing the problem of
multiple copies and versions floating about. Also, how do you search a
Windows help file? Yeah I know, you fire up Windows help and use it's
facilities. But how do you search *through* multiple Windows help files?
Oh what? You can't. Thought so...

As for free Windows web search engines
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...en-US:official
And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and
HtDig to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those
simply because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW
My chosen desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am
cognizant and relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the
light and utility in not locking people into one OS over the other).

Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else
where they can be shared.

And what does a Unix user do after they get this Windows help file?

Also see above. You complain about using server resources then use them
yourself! Your arguments are disingenuous at best!
And again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being
used.

In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
few people who *don't* use Windows.
Well then you haven't been around. I can assure you in the HP Language
Labs where we produced compiler products for HP-UX, people used HP
Workstations running HP-UX not Windows. Ditto for the kernel lab and
other places. And we are not talking 1 or 2 people rather hundreds.

In Sun in the area where I was contracted, it was actually forbidden to
connect a Windows PC to the corporate network!

But I'm sure there are some - and the Windows help files don't work
there. But they work for every project in which I've been involved.

Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done
my isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself
into a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace
open standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix,
Linux, Mac, and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.

Yep. And see my arguments above.

What? You still lack foresight. You think only in terms of Windows.
This is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows.
There is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!
Sure there is. I gave you some. But then again it took at least 3 posts
for you to get that I wasn't advocating IDEs at all. I wonder how many
posts it will take this time before you actually read and think about
what I posted. You can only search Windows help files one at a time -
not index a set of them.
Remember - I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for
me. I am *not* telling you what you should use.
Neither am I! I'm just saying your have tunnel vision because you do not
look beyond your close little environment. I'm not saying don't do it!
I'm saying I wouldn't do that.
Don't tell me what I should use.
I didn't. I told you what I would use and what I see as limiting your
vision.
You don't know my customers.
How do you know that?
You don't know my environment.
I have a pretty good picture though.
And you don't know my needs.
And I wasn't talking about *your* needs. I was talking about the
possible needs of others - not you!
I know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!
Tunnel vision, tunnel vision, tunnel vision. It's all about you isn't it!
Just typical of "I know your job better than you do!".

Forget it. This conversation is at an end.

Great!
--
Yesterday I parked my car in a tow-away zone...when I came back the
entire area was missing...

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah but they surely can, easily and cheaply with HtDig.

No, it's not as easy as Windows help files. Also not as fast.
Google searches billions of web pages in seconds. When a Windows help
file can achieve that same speed give me a ring.

So? What does Google searching billions of pages (using hundreds of
servers) have to do with it?

Your claim is that web searches are not as fast as searching a Windows
help file. The fact that web searches such as Google searches billions
of pages in seconds and a Windows help file could never come close to
that search speed given a similar sized set of things to search (in fact
I doubt it could even attempt to do the job). It is directly relevant
and directly contradicts your assertion!

HTML is good for a lot of things - but it's NOT the answer to life,
the universe and everything!

You're just afraid of it because you don't understand it...

I understand it completely. I've probably been writing HTML longer
than you have - since 1992 or so.

Ah your wrong. I was writing HTML back then too. Next invalid assumption...
And I continue to write HTML as well as XML.

And no - it is NOT the answer to live, the universe and everything!
How could it be the answer to "live"?!? :-)

BTW I never said it was. Of course that's irrelevant to you, cause your
talking out of your ass anyway...
But you obviously have tunnel vision.
How do you figure? Wait, never mind. It's sure to be some other invalid
assumption... Besides didn't you say this conversation was over. Why you
still talking then?
You think your way is the best for everyone.
I never said that either. All I said was that your solution was limited.
I didn't say that my solution was the best, rather it's just a solution.
There are others....
My statement is that it is not. And the way I do it works best for me
and the projects I work on.
Again, it's all about you.
Sorry. This conversation is at an end.

Again? Gee wonkers Wally!
--
Disco dancing is just the steady thump of a giant moron knocking in an
endless nail. - Clive James, London Sunday Observer 17 Dec 78

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Then my Project Managers, from over 25 years - at companies as big
and diverse as HP, Sun, Cisco, Amerquest, Broadcom and a plethora of
others (look up my resume...) have all not been managing their
projects properly. This does say something very loudly and clearly -
what you describe is definitely not the norm. Indeed what you
describe is pie in the sky rarity!
Yep, I find that very common in the business world today.

What does that say to you?
Just because you're big doesn't mean you can manage projects properly.
At least by your definition. Granted some places have bad project
management. But many of them work just fine in ways other than what you
are espousing.

Finally, my Project Managers as of late are not really projects
managers as per se, rather they are clients.

Clients are not project managers. They are clients. Two entirely
different things!

Didn't I just say that!

Given enough time that is. Unfortunately businesses do not really
have that kind of time anymore. Models like the Open Source model
beat the pants off of the structured design everything first then
start coding methodologies of the past...

Proper project management *shortens* the time it takes to complete a
project - the bigger the project, the more time it saves.

Agreed. Proper project management is a good thing. Is proper project
management where ever last stitch of documentation is written before the
first line of code is written. In my experience no, that is not the
case. Prototyping is more effective.
When the design is done ahead of time, there is less rewriting because
other code changed. And every time you have to rewrite the code, you
increase the chance of errors creeping into the code, which means more
test/diagnosis/correction time. It also increases the number of
errors which can make it to the customer.
There are many people who disagree with your theory.

and within budget, given reasonable time and budgetary constraints.

Aye there's the rub - "reasonable time". Which is way longer than is
acceptable these days. Why do you think IBM fell from on high?
Because different more flexible and a lot faster ways of doing things
developed and IBM didn't keep pace. The only reason IBM is back at
all is that they have actively changed their culture and stringentness.

All the more reason to do proper management.

And no, IBM didn't keep pace. They didn't realize the effect their PC
would have on the rest of the world. They made major missteps in
their target audience. They did a huge amount of things wrong.

What I'm saying is that it's similar to a 50% off sale. What is a 50%
off sale when the seller first marks it up 100%. Answer it's a 50% gain
for the seller! You can scope out the project for 1 year and manage it
effectively and even up in at 11 months. Or you can get cracking at be
done in 7 months. How is claiming that this "proper project management"
saved 1 month of development time helpful?

And change orders were handled by modifying the design - which
showed exactly how it would affect other parts of the project.

I've also worked on ones where PM wasn't properly done. Some were
on time, but most were late. They also had more bugs and change
orders were harder to implement.

The track records of the big companies has not agreed with your
assessment.

As I said - just because you're big doesn't mean you do it right. And
the track record of the big companies has shown that it has been done.

I agree. Just because you're big doesn't mean that you do it right.
However, again, every company that I have been, including big, named
companies, operate similarly and do not operate the way you say you do.
That says something. Had I just said "Well none of the companies I've
worked at do it that way" you'd say I must have worked at bad companies.
I don't think that I have.
I used to do a lot of training - both in programming and project
management.
Ah, those that do do, those that can't teach... :-)
Most of my customers were from the Fortune 1000 list. And virtually
every class where I asked if they had projects which were overdue,
over budget, etc., I had people raise their hands. And the common
thread was that the projects were not being managed.
Projects need to be managed. Granted. I thought we were discussing the
way they are managed. Specifically I thought we were talking about the
requirement to have all the documentation in before coding. In practice
that rarely happens. Why is that? Just everybody doing it wrong? I doubt it!
I actually had a manager tell me one time "If my programmers aren't
writing code, they aren't being productive." He completely ignored
the fact that just because they were writing code *did not* mean they
were being productive! It meant they were writing code.
Actually he is correct and you are wrong. A programmers job is to write
code. I designers job is to design stuff. The programmers should be
writing code or they are not doing their job - period. They should be
writing code that was designed by the designer last month, for example.
But without direction, the manager had no idea of the code would ever
be used in a project or not. And if it was not, they weren't very
productive, were they?
You assume that they are writing code for something that has not been
designed yet. Next invalid assumption!
It's why I get programmers involved with the design phase. They are
helping, and more importantly, they are getting a better feel for the
project as a whole. And they are being productive - they are helping
to produce the design spec they will eventually write code for.
Granted, most programmers are not only coders, they are designers too.
And when it comes time to write the code, they do it more quickly and
with fewer errors because they don't have to keep going back and
rewriting it.
That's just what unexperienced programmers do. They need that helping hand.

> Of course, if you don't design the application and fly by the seat
> of your pants, that's another story.

In my line of work I'm forced to do that all the time...

I've heard that before. But all but the smallest projects benefit
from a proper design.

Yes but then your contract expires early and your out on the street
begging for food. You know those grandiose ideas and methodologies
look great on paper. But the real world and real business constraints
always seem to get in way. As a contract and a businessman myself I
strive to keep the customer happy and they are always right, etc...
Real world is, while proper design, etc. is all nice, it don't happen
much.

I admit, when I first started consulting, I was hungry a fair amount
of the time. But never since then. In fact, I've turned down work.
Success breeds success - and demand.

A proper consultant does what the contract requires. If the contract
does not require a large over management of a project then you shouldn't
be doing that. If the contract merely wants you to write code then you
write code. You do what you client wants.
The only "real world and real business constraints" here is the
thinking of management.
Yeah right! Just ignore reality. It doesn't really exist.
You need to convince them that proper management means a more
successful project. This takes proven experience, knowledge and
belief in yourself, amongst other things. And most importantly, it
takes skill in dealing with the customer.
So you sell them a bill of goods. Great. I'm sure it makes you money.
Probably the best lesson I ever learned was to walk away from a bad
contract instead of taking it, no matter how hungry I was.

--
Will the information superhighway have any rest stops?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Windows help compiler - $0.

You forgot to include the cost of Windows itself!

(BTW Linux is free - yeah companies sell Linux but what they are
selling really is support not the software itself - IOW you can get
Linux for free).

Already on the system. No additional charge.

Which is not the same as no charge. Can you understand that difference?
Already on the system does not mean that it was free.
--
I was hitchhiking the other day, and a hearse stopped. I said, "No
thanks - I'm not going that far."

[Oli Filth]

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 16:46:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 04:28:

No, my original point was related to the original part of this
thread. You're trying to change that.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
If your post was in response to the original part of the thread, then
you should've posted it as a reply there. If you post it as a reply to
an unrelated branch (i.e. one that digressed, like NG discussions tend
to do), you can hardly be surprised when someone says "What the hell?
How does that relate to what I just said?".

You should read back through this branch.

OK... let's see:

Me: The biggest single reason I love an IDE that "understands" the
language? Project navigation. A project with 100 classes split over
an equally large number of source/header files, in a generic text
editor, if I wanted to look up the the *!!!IMPLEMENTATION!!!* of
X::Foo(), I'd either have to remember that Class X is defined
somewhere in source file Y, then search that file (semi)manually, or
do a global search for "Foo()" and wade through the results. In an
IDE, I click on X in class-view, then click on Foo(), and I'm
straight there.
You: Or, you just look it up in the project documentation.
Me: Notice that I was referring to jumping to *implementation*, not
*doucmentation*
You: But Documentation should be completed BEFORE Implementation!
Me: What bearing does that have on anything?

Maybe it's just me, but your responses are complete non-sequiturs!
And AFAIK, in a NG when you reply to *and* quote someone, it's the norm
to post something that follows on in some way!
--
Oli

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 16:46:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 04:28:
No, my original point was related to the original part of this
thread. You're trying to change that.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
If your post was in response to the original part of the thread, then
you should've posted it as a reply there. If you post it as a reply
to an unrelated branch (i.e. one that digressed, like NG discussions
tend to do), you can hardly be surprised when someone says "What the
hell? How does that relate to what I just said?".

You should read back through this branch.

OK... let's see:

Me:

> The biggest single reason I love an IDE that "understands" the
> language? Project navigation. A project with 100 classes split over
> an equally large number of source/header files, in a generic text
> editor, if I wanted to look up the the *!!!IMPLEMENTATION!!!* of
> X::Foo(), I'd either have to remember that Class X is defined
> somewhere in source file Y, then search that file (semi)manually, or
> do a global search for "Foo()" and wade through the results. In an
> IDE, I click on X in class-view, then click on Foo(), and I'm
> straight there.

You:

> Or, you just look it up in the project documentation.

Me:

> Notice that I was referring to jumping to *implementation*, not
> *doucmentation*

You:

> But Documentation should be completed BEFORE Implementation!

Me:

> What bearing does that have on anything?

Maybe it's just me, but your responses are complete non-sequiturs!
And AFAIK, in a NG when you reply to *and* quote someone, it's the norm
to post something that follows on in some way!

Not at all. Documentation should be completed BEFORE implementation.
Don't put the cart before the horst!
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================

[Chung Leong]

Can't this thread die already?

[paul]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:08:57 +0000, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Ramon wrote:

At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but
I can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)

Are you counting computer languages! ;-)

Why does it matter if one can speak multiple languages anyway! I speak
'merican! That's all that matters! :-P

<OT rant>
LOL, clearly the arrogant limited view of an 'merican. Maybe you did
not notice but the world is larger than the U.S. of A. And if you want
to sell your product outside your country it definitely helps to speak a
little more than 'merican. Maybe most people in the world have learnt to
speak some English, and that is why you get away with it. But it helps a
lot in building a relation ship with your customer (and sell more!) when
you even try to speak a few words in their language. But what do you care?
Most people know that Americans are superficial and only interested in
short term profits and don't care about building a basis for future growth.

I know that I am generalizing, but I have found that this is true for a
majority of the Americans I know personally. Most are nice and decent
people, but still arrogant. Why do you think the rest of the world loves
the 'mericans so much??? Do not start telling me that I have not met
any real Americans, I did, I lived in your beautiful for a few years.</OT
rant>

[Ramon]

I have as well, I lived and worked for a few years in LA & NY. US is not
a pleasant place to live. Very similar to Russia, everyone thinks they
are top shit. The statement above is not a surprise, well at least it
shouldn't be. As people in our industry, are isolated and have very
little social interaction. Sometimes it is so evident, that they can't
even see past their own noses.

Take a look at this thread. Two guys, who were originally arguing the
same fucking point, are now at each other's throats, the way I see it,
is that these two just love arguing, it makes them feel important.

Just simplicity if you ask me.

Fine you proved it: you have some experience, and have an opinion on the
matter of IDE. But the OP asked what IDE people are using, presumably he
already made the decision whether he wants to use an IDE or not.

You wanted to express your opinion?
This could have been done without arguing. In fact this isn't an
exclusive thing just for this topic. These two have done exactly the
same shit in numerous other threads.

Sad really.

paul wrote:

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:08:57 +0000, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Ramon wrote:

At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but
I can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)

Are you counting computer languages! ;-)

Why does it matter if one can speak multiple languages anyway! I speak
'merican! That's all that matters! :-P

<OT rant>
LOL, clearly the arrogant limited view of an 'merican. Maybe you did
not notice but the world is larger than the U.S. of A. And if you want
to sell your product outside your country it definitely helps to speak a
little more than 'merican. Maybe most people in the world have learnt to
speak some English, and that is why you get away with it. But it helps a
lot in building a relation ship with your customer (and sell more!) when
you even try to speak a few words in their language. But what do you care?
Most people know that Americans are superficial and only interested in
short term profits and don't care about building a basis for future growth.

I know that I am generalizing, but I have found that this is true for a
majority of the Americans I know personally. Most are nice and decent
people, but still arrogant. Why do you think the rest of the world loves
the 'mericans so much??? Do not start telling me that I have not met
any real Americans, I did, I lived in your beautiful for a few years.</OT
rant>

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

I have as well, I lived and worked for a few years in LA & NY. US is
not a pleasant place to live. Very similar to Russia, everyone thinks
they are top shit.
That just says how out of touch you really are!
The statement above is not a surprise, well at least it shouldn't be.
As people in our industry, are isolated and have very little social
interaction. Sometimes it is so evident, that they can't even see
past their own noses.
Is social interaction required to express a technical opinion?
Take a look at this thread. Two guys, who were originally arguing the
same fucking point, are now at each other's throats, the way I see it,
is that these two just love arguing, it makes them feel important.
I'm at nobody's throat!
Just simplicity if you ask me.

Fine you proved it: you have some experience, and have an opinion on
the matter of IDE. But the OP asked what IDE people are using,
presumably he already made the decision whether he wants to use an IDE
or not.
Topics drift. Get use to it.
You wanted to express your opinion?
Yes I did.
This could have been done without arguing.
And yes I did that too. Then people started debating things. Nothing
wrong with that. Then mud started flying. Happens all the time.
In fact this isn't an exclusive thing just for this topic. These two
have done exactly the same shit in numerous other threads.
Now you're starting to see the light...
Sad really.

It is the state of humanity really...
--
A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first
thought of. - Burt Bacharach

[Andrew DeFaria]

paul wrote:

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:08:57 +0000, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Ramon wrote:

At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language,
but I can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)
Are you counting computer languages! ;-)

Why does it matter if one can speak multiple languages anyway! I
speak 'merican! That's all that matters! :-P

BTW: I was putting forth a joke. But since you wish to be serious about
this and sling mud... well let the mud sling!
<OT rant>
LOL, clearly the arrogant limited view of an 'merican.
Yes I do have an arrogant view (I don't think it's limited, however).
I'm a jerk and an asshole and proud of it! I decided long ago that
"fureigners" will call Americans arrogant no matter what you do. And I'm
not about to go kissing butt of anybody who wishes to levy such a
charge. As I've often said, if I'm gonna do the time then I might as
well do the crime! Here comes the crime...
Maybe you did not notice but the world is larger than the U.S. of A.
Yeah but all of the rest of it is irrelevant.
And if you want to sell your product outside your country it
definitely helps to speak a little more than 'merican.
I ain't selling any products nor anything outside the country so
personally I couldn't give a ratt's ass. And even if I were selling
stuff outside the US there are plenty of people who will buy without
insisting I speak their language. Evidence of this abounds...
Maybe most people in the world have learnt to speak some English, and
that is why you get away with it.
Ah ha! Well think about that statement a little harder there bud! Cause
it just contradicts your previous statement by directly saying that
people will learn and deal with English (only) speaking people because
we often have what they need. They don't do it out of the goodness of
their heart nor because they somehow find English fascinating. They do
it because they need to or want to someday go to a Western country or
the US to raise their standard of living. They do it because knowing
English raises their value the most, whereas say learning Hymalayan
won't do them diddly squat!
But it helps a lot in building a relation ship with your customer (and
sell more!) when you even try to speak a few words in their language.
But what do you care?
Actually - no! It's by and large not necessary as they will learn your
language.
Most people know that Americans are superficial and only interested in
short term profits and don't care about building a basis for future
growth.
Most people are jealous of others. So what?

And Americans are not only interested in short term profits. It's more
that they are not interested in building a basis for future growth with
you because they don't see you as something that has much potential. If
there is much long term potential we will build a basis for future
growth. What you don't understand is that very often it just is not
worth our effort because the ROI is too little.
I know that I am generalizing, but I have found that this is true for
a majority of the Americans I know personally. Most are nice and
decent people, but still arrogant.
When you got what it takes you can be arrogant.
Why do you think the rest of the world loves the 'mericans so much???
Because we got what they want. It's pretty simple really...
Do not start telling me that I have not met any real Americans, I did,
I lived in your beautiful for a few years.</OT rant>

Oh I'm not saying you haven't met any real Americans. You perhaps don't
understand them.
--
How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink?

[Ramon]

>>I'm a jerk and an asshole and proud of it!

Agreed.

Yeah but all of the rest of it is irrelevant.
Now thats really amusing, considering if Russia and/or any other country
raise its petrol price above a certain amount, US will go into recession
as opposed to many European and Asian economies.

They do it because they need to or want to someday go to a Western country or
the USt to raise their sandard of living. They do it because knowing
English raises their value the most, whereas say learning Hymalayan
won't do them diddly squat!
Good point, but I see you mentioned "western" country, so you agree its
not just the US. Furthermore people learn English because so many people
in the world speak it, and not because of the US, in fact it has diddly
shit all to do with your polluted industrial waist land. And more with
Britain, and their colonies (including Australia & NZ).

When you got what it takes you can be arrogant.
Got what it takes?! :) HA! Reminds me of all those retarded Hollywood
WWII films. Where after watching it, one would think that the US had a
large part to play in pushing Nazi Germany back, and winning the war
(which was pathetic, compared to say Britain and Russia). What 'mericans
are good at is ballooning everything, their accomplishments, loses.
Story tellers really. Kind of like you.
Because we got what they want. It's pretty simple really...
What have you got? Targets for RussiansBrides.com? That break your
hearts and steal all your money? That you do... That you do... Whats the
suicide rate in the states? I recommend you have a look at it.
Oh I'm not saying you haven't met any real Americans. You perhaps don't
understand them.

Oh I understand them, I was on a business trip once, in central Sydney.
I was walking into my hotel, and I happen to meet a 'merican in the
elevator, who I followed to spread over the elevator walls. No manners,
no dignity, no self respect. All started over a elevator system, where
*shock horror* you had two different sets of elevators, the ones for
even numbers and another one for odd. Started swearing and abusing
everyone, was really amusing. Well not for him.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

(Some people really need to get a dictionary and look up the term
sarcastic. But I'll play long here...)

I'm a jerk and an asshole and proud of it!

Agreed.

Thank you!

Yeah but all of the rest of it is irrelevant.

Now thats really amusing, considering if Russia and/or any other
country raise its petrol price above a certain amount, US will go into
recession as opposed to many European and Asian economies.

Sounds like a wonderful war time tactic. Wonder why it's rarely used...

They do it because they need to or want to someday go to a Western
country or the USt to raise their sandard of living. They do it
because knowing English raises their value the most, whereas say
learning Hymalayan won't do them diddly squat!

Good point, but I see you mentioned "western" country, so you agree
its not just the US.

No (Again, see sarcastic)
Furthermore people learn English because so many people in the world
speak it,
Bingo! And why is that?
and not because of the US,
Well it's surely not because of England. England may have gotten the
English language out to many countries but people don't learn English
now a days because of England. English is the language of business and
more importantly English is the language spoken in America!
in fact it has diddly shit all to do with your polluted industrial
waist land.
Ah an eco freak!
And more with Britain, and their colonies (including Australia & NZ).
Yeah, right. Sure... See above (and see sarcastic)

When you got what it takes you can be arrogant.

Got what it takes?! :) HA!

Thanks for the acknowledgment!
Reminds me of all those retarded Hollywood WWII films.
I don't produce Hollywood films.
Where after watching it, one would think that the US had a large part
to play in pushing Nazi Germany back, and winning the war (which was
pathetic, compared to say Britain and Russia).
Yeah but we were smart enough to let them do our dirty work!
What 'mericans are good at is ballooning everything, their
accomplishments, loses. Story tellers really. Kind of like you.
Hollywood produces entertainment - not reality (reality shows aside -
and they're not reality either)! Apparently you were unable to detect
the difference...

Because we got what they want. It's pretty simple really...

What have you got?

Why, what people want, of course!
Targets for RussiansBrides.com?
They want it...
That break your hearts and steal all your money?
Some do...
That you do... That you do... Whats the suicide rate in the states?
Don't know. Is that important? It doesn't seem to stop people from
wanting to be here...
I recommend you have a look at it.
What fer?

Oh I'm not saying you haven't met any real Americans. You perhaps
don't understand them.

Oh I understand them,

So you think.
I was on a business trip once, in central Sydney. I was walking into
my hotel, and I happen to meet a 'merican in the elevator, who I
followed to spread over the elevator walls.
Really? You spread this 'merican dude over the elevator walls?!? Cool
trick (I guess).
No manners, no dignity, no self respect.
I wonder what he said of you?
All started over a elevator system, where *shock horror* you had two
different sets of elevators, the ones for even numbers and another one
for odd.
Utterly stupid. Let me guess, you're thinking this is a good thing right?
Started swearing and abusing everyone, was really amusing. Well not
for him.

Oh so then one gains manners, dignity and self respect by tolerating
asinine elevator systems? Interesting philosophy there bud. Nah, here in
America we look at the ridiculous and devise better, more efficient ways
of doing things. The first step to this is challenging the status quo -
otherwise you get nowhere. I guess you are saying that in other
countries, in order to be polite, you don't question things, thus things
never progress. Yeah that's smart and explains why many countries remain
back assed and dislike Americans because we come up with new things by
challenging things that we see are wrong or could be improved.

Yeah never tell anybody when you see inefficiency or foolishness! Hell
they might improve it! But when in foreign countries they will instead
simply be insulted instead of looking at the problem, thus not do
anything about it. They are much more worried about their pride than
anything else.

That said I'm proud to be an arrogant, jerk, even/odd elevator system
hating American!
--
Do people in France use American ticklers?

[Steve]

Surely Godwin's Law <http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law> now
applies and this crap must fizzle out... isn't September over yet, FFS?

---
Steve

[Musashi]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Oh I use Windows too. I don't use MS VS. I don't code in MS C++. I don't code in Visual Basic either (Actually I did do some VB stuff - VB script stuff - but used XEmacs to do it. MS VS VB is all oriented to creating Windows GUI programs, but the task at hand was not to produce a GUI program rather a script. BTW MS VS took up some 500 - 1 gig of my hard drive! What a waste to write a 100 line VB script! And please refresh my memory - exactly how much $$$ does one need to put out for MS VS? Thought so...)
Re: Your comments regarding Xemacs - spot on!, well said.

Although mainly a C/C++ developer (for which I used Xemacs a great deal), I had to
do a good deal of VBScripting last year, and visual-basic-mode.el add-on to Xemacs
was perfect for the task. It seems to be perfect for a great many different tasks!!
Andrew DeFaria wrote: Those English dude are so funny. I'm curious, is it actually pronounced "ass" like us yanks or is it pronounced "are esss"?

Mostly like your phonetic representation. Although many people here have been "corrupted" by the influx of American culture via TV and films, and assume that "ass" is the way forward...

That it is... That it is... I will never get used to things like colour and cheques. For a giggle you should read: Plan for Improvement of English Spelling

Re: Your comments on English spelling - Well, having a high regards
for the classics, I've been searching for a downloadable copy of
Samuel Johnson's famous dictionary - you might think that it would be easily
downloadable since one might have expected the copyright would now
be expired after 200 years - but... every academic site that I have
tried looking seems to cleverly redirect you to some book sales site
rather than offer an online/downloadable version.

I'm inclined to side with Google on the book copyright dispute -
the book publishers and universities have had for too long a monopoly
on research writings - the Internet changes all that as they have begun
to find out. But... that is the stuff for another post and some other newsgroup.
Thanks
Musashi
(Jim Pannozzi)

[Andrew DeFaria]

Steve wrote:

Surely Godwin's Law <http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law> now
applies and this crap must fizzle out... isn't September over yet, FFS?

Interesting law. I never heard of it before but damn it makes sense!