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What the hell is C-Sharp?

P: n/a
<venting>
Fellow coders;

I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
platforms of choice;

Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP

I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?

She goes on to say that the tools I am using are "older tools" and
that I should consider crash courses in these so called "up to date
languages". Oh this is precious.

God, I just about lost my breakfast all over my desk.

Before letting her go I made a futile effort to inform her that these
old moldy tools of mine are ALL under active development, are very
modern and are all over the net.

Dumbass headhunter!
</venting>

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Sievers 305 854-3001 (home) WWW ECommerce Consultant
305 321-1144 (mobile http://www.JerrySievers.com/
Jul 17 '05 #1
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P: n/a

IIRC, C# is Javascript with Bill Gates' fecal matter smeared all over
it. (I.e., Microsoft's proprietary implementation thereof.)
Jul 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
Jerry Sievers wrote:

LOL!
Oh my!
That was a good posting. :P

<venting>
Fellow coders;

I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
platforms of choice;

Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP
Is there anything else out there? :P

I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?
To make a whole bunch of dollars/euros/whatever by coding it maybe?
That is what motivated me in doing ASP/VBscript/ACCESS too.
Not the beauty of the language.
;-)

She goes on to say that the tools I am using are "older tools" and
that I should consider crash courses in these so called "up to date
languages". Oh this is precious.
:-)
So your Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP is not up-to-date?
Great.
She probably ranks up-to-dateness by the number of security-patches released
every week. :P

God, I just about lost my breakfast all over my desk.

Before letting her go I made a futile effort to inform her that these
old moldy tools of mine are ALL under active development, are very
modern and are all over the net.

Dumbass headhunter!
</venting>

Thanks for the good laugh.

But seriously: I heard a lot of good things about C#.
I do/did a lot of Java too, and from what I heard, C# is a really good
rip-off of Java.
So maybe C# is fun after all.
Not sure. Never touched it.

Thanks!

Regards,
Erwin Moller
Jul 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
"Jerry Sievers" <je***@jerrysievers.com> wrote in message
news:m3************@prod01.jerrysievers.com...
: <venting>
: Fellow coders;
:
: I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
: listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
: platforms of choice;
:
: Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP
:
: She goes on to say that the tools I am using are "older tools" and
: that I should consider crash courses in these so called "up to date
: languages". Oh this is precious.
:

More likely it's one of these outfits that claim to be recruitment firms,
but are actually selling training/certification courses. Apply to certain
recruitment/outsourcing firms, and you'll instantly get a plethora of these
bloody awful phone calls.

Web-based recruitment sites are also just *great* for this!

Jul 17 '05 #4

P: n/a
I learned C about 20 years ago y I was happy to learn recently that
Linus Torvalds used C, not C++, for Linux.

Jul 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
odalcet wrote:
I learned C about 20 years ago y I was happy to learn recently that
Linus Torvalds used C, not C++, for Linux.


Hi,

Sorry, don't want to be a know-it-all, but we were discussing C# ('C sharp',
not C++).
C# is something 'new', 'invented' by M$, and it is used a lot in their
'invention' Dot Net.

And yes, I think most apps in GNU/Linux are written in C.
Alas, I only know Java, so they must work without my input. :-)

Regards,
Erwin Moller

Jul 17 '05 #6

P: n/a
Jerry Sievers wrote:
<venting>
Fellow coders;

I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
platforms of choice;

Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP

I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?

She goes on to say that the tools I am using are "older tools" and
that I should consider crash courses in these so called "up to date
languages". Oh this is precious.

God, I just about lost my breakfast all over my desk.

Before letting her go I made a futile effort to inform her that these
old moldy tools of mine are ALL under active development, are very
modern and are all over the net.

Dumbass headhunter!
</venting>


Well yes, headhunters are indeed dumbasses! Think about it... How much
does a headhunter get paid? That said why wouldn't they do instead of
recruit? Because they don't have the knowledge nor the talent.

That said, the headhunters are indeed driven by the needs of their
clients, which are the businesses. The better question would be: Why do
businesses feel the need to use these new, often unproven, often overly
complicated technologies for their business? The answer is very often
they do not. You see many times the people in business who are doing the
hiring don't know the technology either. So they ask their subordinates,
who, often are just wanting to play with, learn and use new technology.
So they tell their bosses and the bosses refer the technological buzz
words to the headhunters and then they call you with strict requirements
for their clients.

I've been guilty of wanting to learn new technologies too. Often I look
at the opportunity as an opportunity for me to learn more about a
particular aspect or to get a new technology under my belt. However,
after the dot com bust employers got really picky and you could not even
get into a place unless you met 100% of whatever buzzwords were thrown
out there. Many times I'll have a contract where the employer say needs
somebody who know WebLogic or Java or C# or whatever. For what I do such
things are unnecessary but I look at it as a chance to get more familiar
with those technologies. Usually it ends up I don't touch it at all
because as I said, it wasn't necessary and therefore was not really a
requirement. Some dumb employers think that if you merely know a lot of
technologies then you must be good, even if they only want you to
perform work with a much smaller set of things.

In general though I keep away from the new fangled stuff like the C#,
dot.net crap and go for the tried and true Linux oriented methodologies
and languages from PHP, Perl, shell scripting, MySQL, Apache, good old
C, etc. These tools are well engineered and designed and do not require
overly complex IDE environments to understand and work with the
technologies and allow people to do real work, real quick. YMMV.

--
Bad breath is better than no breath.

Jul 17 '05 #7

P: n/a
C# is what happens when you cross your eyes and look at C++

:-)

Jul 17 '05 #8

P: n/a
News Me wrote:
IIRC, C# is Javascript [...] (I.e., Microsoft's proprietary
implementation thereof.)


You're thinking JScript, which is an implementation of ECMAScript.

From the /very/ little I've seen of C#, it sits somewhere between Java
and C++ though it seems to lean towards the former.

Mike

--
Michael Winter
Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.
Jul 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
"Jerry Sievers" <je***@jerrysievers.com> wrote in message
news:m3************@prod01.jerrysievers.com...
<venting>
Fellow coders;

I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
platforms of choice;

Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP

I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?


C# is Microsoft's answer to Java. To put it very simply, it's high-level
C++. The language is fully OOP--even basic types like int are objects. It's
even more strongly typed than C/C++. For instance, there's no implicit
conversion between integer and boolean.

The cheif architect of C# is Anders Hejlsberg, the highly respected creator
of Turbo Pascal/Borland Delphi. His involvement lends a lot of credibility
to the language. Even people who normally dismiss anything Microsoft as junk
take it seriously.

C# programs are compiled to Microsoft Intermediate Language --somewhat
equivalent to Java bytecode. At runtime a JIT compiler converts the MSIL
code to naitive code, which means a web site built using C#/.NET is many
times faster than one built using an interpreted language like PHP. That
partly answers your question as to why you'd need it. The Common Language
Runtime that underlies .NET also offers seamless integration with COM and
SOAP--technologies that don't work quite so well in PHP.

Although I'm a PHP developer (mostly), I have no problem recommending .NET
when I think it's the right tool for a job. The Windows/IIS/MSSQL/ASP.NET
combination offers a very powerful solution that, at the same time, can be
maintained by someone without a great deal of technical know-how (e.g. a
Windows tech support guy). If you don't know anything about ASP.NET, I would
suggest you buy a book or take an online tutorial, if only to see a
different approach to web programming.

ASP.NET uses a very interesting model. It blurs the distinction between
server-side and client-side code. For instance, you can attach a C# method
running on the server to the onchange event of a select box. When the user
changes the selection, the page automatically posts to the server,
preserving data on the form, and calls the handler. Conversely, server-side
code can do things that're usually regarded as client-side, such as setting
the innerHTML property of a tag.
Jul 17 '05 #10

P: n/a
Here's the gist, I think.

Sun invented Java, but is keeping close control of it.

So Microsoft has invented C# to co-opt it.

And the open source community is trying to clone C# in a language
called Mono.

I don't care about any of them.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:04:27 GMT, Michael Winter
<m.******@blueyonder.co.invalid> wrote:
News Me wrote:
IIRC, C# is Javascript [...] (I.e., Microsoft's proprietary
implementation thereof.)


You're thinking JScript, which is an implementation of ECMAScript.

From the /very/ little I've seen of C#, it sits somewhere between Java
and C++ though it seems to lean towards the former.

Mike


Jul 17 '05 #11

P: n/a
Jerry Sievers wrote:
I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?


I just went to jobserve.co.uk and did a few searches:

"php AND london" : 99 hits
"c# AND london" : 923 hits
".net AND london" : 977 hits

I suspect the pattern would follow in any technology based city, and that's
why she's pushing you towards Microsoft technology. With 10x as many
vacancies, you'll find a job much easier if you have those skills, and
she'll get her commission.

I have no more interest in learning C# or .NET than you have, but I'm not
deluding myself that the rest of the world thinks like we do.

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>
Jul 17 '05 #12

P: n/a
Chung Leong wrote:
C# programs are compiled to Microsoft Intermediate Language --somewhat
equivalent to Java bytecode. At runtime a JIT compiler converts the
MSIL code to naitive code, which means a web site built using C#/.NET
is many times faster than one built using an interpreted language like
PHP. That partly answers your question as to why you'd need it. The
Common Language Runtime that underlies .NET also offers seamless
integration with COM and SOAP--technologies that don't work quite so
well in PHP.
Yeah but the question remains, why do I need it. I don't need COM nor
SOAP nor .NET nor CLR and neither do I need C#. All of these are limited
to just MS Windows. There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care? What
do I do when my next contract has only Linux or if my current employer
likes what I did with C# on the Windows side of the house and wants me
to reproduce it in a group that doesn't run Windows. Besides, for very
many things classes and objects are overkill for the task(s) at hand.
Although I'm a PHP developer (mostly), I have no problem recommending
.NET when I think it's the right tool for a job. The
Windows/IIS/MSSQL/ASP.NET combination offers a very powerful solution
that, at the same time, can be maintained by someone without a great
deal of technical know-how (e.g. a Windows tech support guy).
Puffft! Please! Windows tech support guys don't code, don't know the
first thing about it and quite frankly would be a wash in C# objects
with little to no understanding of them at all! Configuring IIS is a
bear. Plus each and every technology you mention costs $$$ to acquire
and time to learn and, as I said, are often overkill for many, many things.
If you don't know anything about ASP.NET, I would suggest you buy a
book or take an online tutorial, if only to see a different approach
to web programming.
Again, I'm not interested. I don't need .NET, COM, SOAP and all of those
technologies. They do little for what I do than add unnecessary
complications.
ASP.NET uses a very interesting model. It blurs the distinction
between server-side and client-side code.
While it may be interesting is it really useful? Do we really want to
blur the lines of distinction? I happen to think that the lines are
there for good reason.
For instance, you can attach a C# method running on the server to the
onchange event of a select box. When the user changes the selection,
the page automatically posts to the server, preserving data on the
form, and calls the handler. Conversely, server-side code can do
things that're usually regarded as client-side, such as setting the
innerHTML property of a tag.

--
If it's zero degrees outside today and it's supposed to be twice as cold
tomorrow, how cold is it going to be?

Jul 17 '05 #13

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria wrote:
There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care?


http://www.mono-project.com/about/index.html
Jul 17 '05 #14

P: n/a
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:04:32 GMT, Andrew DeFaria <An****@DeFaria.com>
wrote:
Yeah but the question remains, why do I need it. I don't need COM nor
SOAP nor .NET nor CLR and neither do I need C#. All of these are limited
to just MS Windows.
Actually there isn't anything specific to Windows about SOAP. You can
code a SOAP server and client in PHP, for example. Or Java.
There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care?
Mono and GotGnu.
Besides, for very
many things classes and objects are overkill for the task(s) at hand.


Hello World apps perhaps. If you do anything useful for somebody than
classes and objects aren't overkill.
ASP.NET uses a very interesting model. It blurs the distinction
between server-side and client-side code.


While it may be interesting is it really useful? Do we really want to
blur the lines of distinction? I happen to think that the lines are
there for good reason.


Abstractions are good. They keep you having to code things over and
over. Of course, abstractions can be leaky (the line between server
and client side can only be blurred so much) but on the whole it's
probably a good thing.

Jul 17 '05 #15

P: n/a
Nik Coughin wrote:
Andrew DeFaria wrote:
There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care?


http://www.mono-project.com/about/index.html


No doubt some people will attempt to implement such stuff however:

$ mono
bash: mono: command not found

--
I don't get even, I get odder.

Jul 17 '05 #16

P: n/a
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:QC*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
Yeah but the question remains, why do I need it. I don't need COM nor
SOAP nor .NET nor CLR and neither do I need C#. All of these are limited
to just MS Windows. There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care? What
do I do when my next contract has only Linux or if my current employer
likes what I did with C# on the Windows side of the house and wants me
to reproduce it in a group that doesn't run Windows. Besides, for very
many things classes and objects are overkill for the task(s) at hand.
Well, you might not need it now, but for all you know in a future project
your client might want to use COM and SOAP and MSSQL. It never hurts to know
more. The headhunter is actually giving you good advice and you call her
clueless. She probably knows far more than you do on which skill set earns
more money.
Puffft! Please! Windows tech support guys don't code, don't know the
first thing about it and quite frankly would be a wash in C# objects
with little to no understanding of them at all! Configuring IIS is a
bear. Plus each and every technology you mention costs $$$ to acquire
and time to learn and, as I said, are often overkill for many, many

things.

I said maintenance, not development. Even an average Windows admin knows how
to schedule backups on a MSSQL server. The same average Windows admin would
have little clue how to do the same on a Linux box.

Jul 17 '05 #17

P: n/a
I noticed that Message-ID: <N_********************@comcast.com> from
Chung Leong contained the following:
I said maintenance, not development. Even an average Windows admin knows how
to schedule backups on a MSSQL server. The same average Windows admin would
have little clue how to do the same on a Linux box.


I've worked in schools which have low paid technicians on Windows
servers doing just that. The systems are invariably inefficient and
fall over completely every time there is an upgrade.

One could argue that though a LINUX techie may need to know more, you'd
have a better more robust system as a result.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Jul 17 '05 #18

P: n/a
nu**@nowhere.com wrote:
Here's the gist, I think.

Sun invented Java, but is keeping close control of it.

So Microsoft has invented C# to co-opt it.

And the open source community is trying to clone C# in a language
called Mono.

I don't care about any of them.


Hi null@nowhere,

Shame for you.
Java is a very powerfull elegant language.
You really should give it a try one day.

And Mono is not a C# version, it is an open dotnet implementation.

Why are you so negative about things you don't know?
If you answer: Because it is no free software (as R. Stallman's definition),
I agree completely, otherwise, please explain.

Regards,
Erwin Moller
Jul 17 '05 #19

P: n/a
Bravo Andrew DeFaria!

Good piece.
I concur 100%.

What a strange wold we have: People without to-the-point knowlegde define
what skills developers should have.

In my experience the reason for this is that the worst people in a technical
team are often put forward to do other stuff (non-designing/coding).
Just to reduce the damage they create by helping out with programming.
From there they drift up.
Before you know it they lead the technical department.

I met few managers/bosses that are really good themselfs.
Shame.

Regards,
Erwin Moller
Jul 17 '05 #20

P: n/a
In article <N_********************@comcast.com>,
"Chung Leong" <ch***********@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:QC*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
Yeah but the question remains, why do I need it. I don't need COM nor
SOAP nor .NET nor CLR and neither do I need C#. All of these are limited
to just MS Windows. There is no .NET on Linux so why would I care? What
do I do when my next contract has only Linux or if my current employer
likes what I did with C# on the Windows side of the house and wants me
to reproduce it in a group that doesn't run Windows. Besides, for very
many things classes and objects are overkill for the task(s) at hand.


Well, you might not need it now, but for all you know in a future project
your client might want to use COM and SOAP and MSSQL. It never hurts to know
more. The headhunter is actually giving you good advice and you call her
clueless. She probably knows far more than you do on which skill set earns
more money.


Perhaps. But I had a head hunter critique my resume wanting to see more
emphasis on the business/database stuff I'd done. When he asked if I
had any COBOL experience, I figured I didn't need to work with him.
Same for the company that felt I wasn't professional enough at the
interview because I wore "standard business attire" (dress slacks,
shirt, tie, and sport coat) rather than a 3-piece suit. Nowadays, my
guess is you'd get a hard time showing up to an interview wearing a tie
here in the Silicon Valley.

If you want to work with M$, fine. Learn the technology. Otherwise
decide on the scope of your work and choose non-clueless head hunters
accordingly.

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

Jul 17 '05 #21

P: n/a
I noticed that Message-ID: <42***********************@news.xs4all.nl>
from Erwin Moller contained the following:
What a strange wold we have: People without to-the-point knowlegde define
what skills developers should have.


It's simple.

Non techy people have a hard time accepting that software that is free
can be as good or better than software that costs an arm and a leg.

Should the open source system not work properly, they would get blamed
for penny pinching, not for bad code.

Going for Microsoft solution is simply a way of covering ones backside
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Jul 17 '05 #22

P: n/a
Geoff Berrow wrote:
I noticed that Message-ID: <42***********************@news.xs4all.nl>
from Erwin Moller contained the following:

What a strange wold we have: People without to-the-point knowlegde define
what skills developers should have.

It's simple.

Non techy people have a hard time accepting that software that is free
can be as good or better than software that costs an arm and a leg.

Should the open source system not work properly, they would get blamed
for penny pinching, not for bad code.

Going for Microsoft solution is simply a way of covering ones backside


"Nobody got fired for buying IBM"

Remember?
Jul 17 '05 #23

P: n/a
I noticed that Message-ID: <cv*********@lust.ihug.co.nz> from Steve
contained the following:
Going for Microsoft solution is simply a way of covering ones backside


"Nobody got fired for buying IBM"


Exactly.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Jul 17 '05 #24

P: n/a
Geoff Berrow wrote:
I noticed that Message-ID: <42***********************@news.xs4all.nl>
from Erwin Moller contained the following:
What a strange wold we have: People without to-the-point knowlegde define
what skills developers should have.


It's simple.

Non techy people have a hard time accepting that software that is free
can be as good or better than software that costs an arm and a leg.

Should the open source system not work properly, they would get blamed
for penny pinching, not for bad code.

Going for Microsoft solution is simply a way of covering ones backside


Good point.
I never thought of it that way.
Sounds very plauseble indeed. :-)

Regards,
Erwin Moller
Jul 17 '05 #25

P: n/a
..NET is small potatoes.

PHP is the single most popular subject on the web. Bigger than
Christmas in December.

Beta Google search gives immediate results count in a little popup for
completions you type in
http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=1&hl=en

Using it did quick survey for results
PHP 768,000,000

I dont think the world is this big.

Need to put this PHP number into perspective
..NET 386,000,000
J2EE 3,410,000
Java 132,000,000
JSP 66,800,000
ASPX 68,200,000

Linux 204,000,000
Solaris 12,500,000
Windows 248,000,000
FreeBSD 11,600,000

Oracle 29,600,000
mySQL 36,800,000
sqlserver 1,050,000

Apache 42,800,000

Yahoo 252,000,000
Google 122,000,000
Dmoz 9,550,000

Ebay 143,000,000
AIM 41,000,000

School 189,000,000
Education 370,000,000

Iraq 59,000,000

BEA WL 1,110,000

XML 49,000,000
SGML 4,560,000
EDI 3,420,000

Extreme
Programming 4,530,000
RUP 585,000
Hacks 20,400,000

And finally...
Christmas 87,900,000
Santa 69,700,000

I have to stop this, kinda like eating popcorn, Ok, back to work...

Jul 17 '05 #26

P: n/a
"Erwin Moller"
<si******************************************@spam yourself.com> wrote in
message news:42***********************@news.xs4all.nl...

: Shame for you.
: Java is a very powerfull elegant language.
: You really should give it a try one day.
:
: And Mono is not a C# version, it is an open dotnet implementation.
:
: Why are you so negative about things you don't know?
: If you answer: Because it is no free software (as R. Stallman's
definition),
: I agree completely, otherwise, please explain.

What's the problem? I know plenty of people who think Python is the best
scripting language since sliced bread. I don't. I hate it, I hate the lack
of braces, and I prefer perl & php.

Why should I have to use a platform I don't like?
Jul 17 '05 #27

P: n/a

Chung Leong wrote:
C# is Microsoft's answer to Java. To put it very simply, it's high-level C++. The language is fully OOP--even basic types like int are objects. It's even more strongly typed than C/C++. For instance, there's no implicit conversion between integer and boolean.
LISP was fully OOP down to the hardware. Where is LISP now?

The cheif architect of C# is Anders Hejlsberg, the highly respected creator of Turbo Pascal/Borland Delphi. His involvement lends a lot of credibility to the language. Even people who normally dismiss anything Microsoft as junk take it seriously.
Who? I can look at it myself. What I see is Java with the possibility
of running your old 'C' programs in the .NET environment. So what? We
can build Mars rovers too.

C# programs are compiled to Microsoft Intermediate Language --somewhat equivalent to Java bytecode. At runtime a JIT compiler converts the MSIL code to naitive code, which means a web site built using C#/.NET is many times faster than one built using an interpreted language like PHP.
PHP *is* compiled into bytecodes and run on an "engine". Try reading
the preface to any PHP book. Even me, a clueless newbie with zero(0)
spare time at home, has done this.

In addition, all it's libraries are implemented in native code ('C'),
which I wager contributes much to it's speed. It is just as fast if
not faster than .ASPX files.

Both .NET and Java depend on their classloaders to load external
classes to load libraries written in that which is not 'C' and to load
the libraries to execute them on the "engine". That's a bad choice for
performance.
That
partly answers your question as to why you'd need it. The Common Language Runtime that underlies .NET also offers seamless integration with COM and SOAP--technologies that don't work quite so well in PHP.
PHP *is* what enabled us to deliver the promise of SOA. Not .NET or
Java. .NET is exceedingly un-agile, a pre-requisite to get the full
value from SOA.

Although I'm a PHP developer (mostly), I have no problem recommending ..NET when I think it's the right tool for a job. The Windows/IIS/MSSQL/ASP.NET combination offers a very powerful solution that, at the same time, can be maintained by someone without a great deal of technical know-how (e.g. a Windows tech support guy). If you don't know anything about ASP.NET, I would suggest you buy a book or take an online tutorial, if only to see a
different approach to web programming.
It's the same old stuff. PHP is what is different. PHP integrates,
for a change. PHP has enabled SOA, not Java, not .NET, not these
gargantuan platforms that cost an arm and a leg and are designed to
lock you in.

ASP.NET uses a very interesting model. It blurs the distinction between server-side and client-side code. For instance, you can attach a C# method running on the server to the onchange event of a select box. When the user changes the selection, the page automatically posts to the server,
preserving data on the form, and calls the handler. Conversely, server-side code can do things that're usually regarded as client-side, such as setting the innerHTML property of a tag.


Yeah, it's like FoxPro "code snippets". Remember those? It's called
"event-driven" style. Old stuff.

Jul 17 '05 #28

P: n/a
"Chung Leong" <ch***********@hotmail.com> writes:
Well, you might not need it now, but for all you know in a future project
your client might want to use COM and SOAP and MSSQL. It never hurts to know
more. The headhunter is actually giving you good advice and you call her
clueless. She probably knows far more than you do on which skill set earns
more money.


Uh huh... It's ALL about money right? Ok I concede it is. And
nothing costs me more money than working with unfamiliar platforms.

I don't personally agree with the notion that there's any good reason
to try and cram one's head full of all sorts of languages and skills.

In fact, I tend to believe that we're better off being true masters in
a generally useful subset of all that's available. And of course, the
market may move out from under us and necessitate retraining (every
several years).

There's nothing like being able to write lots of code meanwhile very
seldom stopping to hit the manual for details.

I claim PHP, Perl and Python on my resume as skills among others.
That said, after doing a large project in Python and then trying to
switch back into PHP, there's considerable start up/review time needed
to get going.

That I've been using PHP since early in version 3 seems irrelevant.

Do agree that a quick overview in some of these new techs is valuable
if for no other reason, so that when the matter comes up in
conversation we aren't left scratching our heads.

Clever marketeers would like nothing more than for all of us to
immediatly jump ship each time a big commercial dev implementation
rolls out.

But these opinions come from independent contractor mentality. I rely
on being able to easily assess the value of a job in terms of
development time and can only do this up front (the way I am required
to just about always), by a complete familiarity with my dev tools.

Hourly workers are quite different as one such worker is paid to be in
a seat doing productive work but the actual measures are a lot more
difficult to quantify.

Ever been doing a project with a new technology and because of
something that you *thought* you read in the manual (and were
depending on being easy to use) turns out not at all like what your
first (non R&D) evaluation suggested?

Contract jobs for firm prices can ill afford 5 minute tasks that
become whole day project due to lack of experience.

Ah well, I'm getting kind of long winded here.

Have a great day.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Sievers 305 854-3001 (home) WWW ECommerce Consultant
305 321-1144 (mobile http://www.JerrySievers.com/
Jul 17 '05 #29

P: n/a
Chung Leong wrote:
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:QC*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
Yeah but the question remains, why do I need it. I don't need COM nor
SOAP nor .NET nor CLR and neither do I need C#. All of these are
limited to just MS Windows. There is no .NET on Linux so why would I
care? What do I do when my next contract has only Linux or if my
current employer likes what I did with C# on the Windows side of the
house and wants me to reproduce it in a group that doesn't run
Windows. Besides, for very many things classes and objects are
overkill for the task(s) at hand.
Well, you might not need it now, but for all you know in a future
project your client might want to use COM and SOAP and MSSQL.


Then, by definition, they would not be my client.
It never hurts to know more.
While true, it is not worth the ROI at the moment. Good money is to be
had in many areas. That does not mean one needs to be a jack of all
trades yet a master of none. Specialty skilled people command top dollar
while risking being too specialized to find work. A reasonable balance
must be struck. Thus you pick what you will learn and specialize in and
often just going for whatever is popular is not a good course of action.
The currently vogue technology gets flooded and you are, as they say, a
dime a dozen. There are lots of things that people can learn in this
field but one should not strive to learn all of them.
The headhunter is actually giving you good advice and you call her
clueless.
The vast majority of them have little clue, if any, of what they are
dealing with. Again, if they did know then they'd be doing it because
the pay is much better. The vast majority of head hunters are indeed
clueless. I'm surprised that this is news to you. You must not get
around that much...
She probably knows far more than you do on which skill set earns more
money.
Typically people specializing in Windows administration (part of what I
do) and programming are not getting top dollar.
Puffft! Please! Windows tech support guys don't code, don't know the
first thing about it and quite frankly would be a wash in C# objects
with little to no understanding of them at all! Configuring IIS is a
bear. Plus each and every technology you mention costs $$$ to acquire
and time to learn and, as I said, are often overkill for many, many
things.


I said maintenance, not development.


OK, then what is maintenance to you? What does it have to do with C#,
SOAP and COM? How would strickly maintanance Windows tech support guy
know the difference if the application was written in C# or PHP? Answer:
He wouldn't, unless he's looking at the code in which case, as I said,
he hasn't a clue. Indeed a case can be made that technologies like C#,
etc. make administration and maintenance costs higher because they pull
in all sorts of technologies, services and support requirements only
making everything more complex. Runtimes have all kinds of support
requirements for SOAP, COM, etc., etc. when all that is called for it
opening a file or two, parsing some stuff and splatting it back out to
the file or screen or window - that's overkill.
Even an average Windows admin knows how to schedule backups on a MSSQL
server.
Whop te do! (Actually many that I've had the pleasure of working with
don't know how to do this)
The same average Windows admin would have little clue how to do the
same on a Linux box.


You're making my case for me. This is one of the reasons why such people
do not command higher salaries - because the lack the capacity to adapt.
--
If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio out of a coconut,
why can't he fix a hole in a boat?

Jul 17 '05 #30

P: n/a
Erwin Moller wrote:
Bravo Andrew DeFaria! Good piece. I concur 100%.
Thanks.
What a strange wold we have: People without to-the-point knowlegde
define what skills developers should have.
Correction: *attempt* to define. They only succeed if you buy it. I don't.
In my experience the reason for this is that the worst people in a
technical team are often put forward to do other stuff
(non-designing/coding). Just to reduce the damage they create by
helping out with programming. From there they drift up.
Before you know it they lead the technical department.
The /Peter Principal/ in action!
I met few managers/bosses that are really good themselfs. Shame.


I've had a few back at HP. While not sharp in the day to day coding
sense they came up from being engineers and still retained at least some
technical knowledge.
--
The big difference between sex for money and sex for free Is that sex
for money usually costs a lot less!

Jul 17 '05 #31

P: n/a
I am a Java/JSP kind of guy. One thing I have found using PHP as
opposed to Java for websites is that it is SO easy to knock websites
together.

The resources out there are amazing. Loose typing means I can cut
corners etc.

Hosting is bloody cheap!

Java on the other hand is more effort - but IMHO gives you more stable
code. Strong typing and compilation mean you can erradicate SO many
errors that can otherwise slip into the code.

c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
(certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and Enterprise
Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger projects.

Me as a developer looks at it this way. For smaller, simpler web apps
PHP is great due to flexibility, ease, speed and support. Java and C#
come into their own when the scale of a project is more significant.

Before I am pulled apart for underestimating PHP, or being a poor coder
etc. I'd just like to point our that I think PHP is great - as is Java
and C# - but each as their own best place in the world.

Jul 17 '05 #32

P: n/a
<ri*******@e-connected.com> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
: Java on the other hand is more effort - but IMHO gives you more stable
: code. Strong typing and compilation mean you can erradicate SO many
: errors that can otherwise slip into the code.
:
: c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
: (certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and Enterprise
: Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger projects.
:
: Me as a developer looks at it this way. For smaller, simpler web apps
: PHP is great due to flexibility, ease, speed and support. Java and C#
: come into their own when the scale of a project is more significant.

Personally, I love PHP, also Perl - some kind of "strongly-typed" variant
would be nice though; most of the problems you here about in these groups
tend to come down to people writing sloppy/bad code, and some kind of
restriction would be nice.

Even a "use strict;" would be a start in PHP.

As far as scalability goes, it doesn't have to be a problem with PHP.
Again, the bulk of the scripts that you see are coded as single flat files,
one for each "visible" webpage, resulting in a lot of code duplication, poor
separation of code + data, etc. One thing that PHP does have over java, is
the ability to include code dynamically, and careful design can ensure that
requesting a page doesn't require the whole application to be started.
Cacheing systems reduce the start-up time.

That said, it does seem the the bulk of the really large sites are
constructed using java/perl/.NET - whether this is a popularity thing, or
based on sound technical criteria, is another question altogether.
Jul 17 '05 #33

P: n/a
ri*******@e-connected.com wrote:
I am a Java/JSP kind of guy. One thing I have found using PHP as
opposed to Java for websites is that it is SO easy to knock websites
together.

The resources out there are amazing. Loose typing means I can cut
corners etc.

Hosting is bloody cheap!
Exactly!
Java on the other hand is more effort - but IMHO gives you more stable
code. Strong typing and compilation mean you can erradicate SO many
errors that can otherwise slip into the code.
While it is possible that strong typing may catch some errors, it has
been my experience that often you are chasing down strong typing errors
and fixing them when in reality they would never actually cause a problem.
c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
(certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and
Enterprise Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger
projects.
I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
therefore need such a solution.
Me as a developer looks at it this way. For smaller, simpler web apps
PHP is great due to flexibility, ease, speed and support. Java and C#
come into their own when the scale of a project is more significant.

Before I am pulled apart for underestimating PHP, or being a poor
coder etc. I'd just like to point our that I think PHP is great - as
is Java and C# - but each as their own best place in the world.


Exactly! Couldn't agree more.

--
The chance that you'll forget something is directly proportional to ...
to ... uh ...

Jul 17 '05 #34

P: n/a
On 23 Feb 2005 11:13:01 -0500, someone posing as Jerry Sievers donned
fireproof bloomers and chiseled in the wall:
<venting>
Fellow coders;

I just get off the phone today with some clueless headhunter and after
listing for her (very proudly I might add) my OS and dev tools
platforms of choice;

Linux/Apache/Postgres/PHP

I get a few moments of silence and she mentiones to me some new wizzy
bang dev languages including C-Sharp. Oh and you bet she asks me if I
an a DotNetter.No, I reply quizically as if to ask, why on earth would
I ever need that?

She goes on to say that the tools I am using are "older tools" and
that I should consider crash courses in these so called "up to date
languages". Oh this is precious.

LOL!

If you haven't heard from the other posts, C#
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/) is part of MS's .NET initiave. It was
actually released to the ECMA as a standard in '02
(http://www.ecma-international.org/pu.../Ecma-334.htm).

It ia - like Java - a semi-compiled language in that a binary IL is created
and exectued by a runtime. Microsoft's thing is that a programmer could
write in any language - C#, VB.NET, COBOL - that has a dot net
implementation and have it run on a given platform.

It is all the rage.
We were just discussing this issue. I work with a group of roughly 100
programmers for a large county. Although the majority of coding is and has
been done in COBOL, almost all of our client-server stuff had been done in
VB and then VB/ASP.

A large discussion is going on as to what language should be adopted as
"the standard" for future development. Because a sizable block of
programmers are familiar with VB - and ONLY VB - they are recommending dot
net be THE programming language. I've brought up Java, C++ and PHP as
alternatives, but this is falling on deaf ears.

In addition, if you look around you won't find many jobs with employers
actively seeking PHP developers, even though it is - IMO - more flexible
than dot net.

Mono is - in fact - a cross-platform implementation of C# dot net. Miguel
de Icaza, who wrot Gnome, is behind this effort.
(http://www.mono-project.com/about/index.html) I haven't tried it
personally, but I see it popping up more often.
You can see an example, here - http://sky-net.sourceforge.net/ - this is a
recently announced MONO application.

--
kai - th*************@yahoo.com - www.perfectreign.com

kai:/> format a:
Error: The DOS concept of formatting disk media is screwed.
To format a floppy, use "fdformat /dev/fd0"
and then "mkfs.minix /dev/fd0".
Jul 17 '05 #35

P: n/a
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:d4*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
: ri*******@e-connected.com wrote:
: > c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
: > (certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and
: > Enterprise Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger
: > projects.
:
: I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
: There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
: larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
: therefore need such a solution.

<cough>slashdot</cough>
Jul 17 '05 #36

P: n/a

ri*******@e-connected.com wrote:
[...]

c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
(certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and Enterprise Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger projects.

[...]

Me being a Java/JSP developer have to fight this notion tooth and nail.
Java/JSP webapps have caused nothing but misery in the real corporate
environment with content management and designers etc. There's
constant confusion and overlap between CMS and application development.
Very little source control in the worst of both worlds. PHP fixes
that.

You have to take a chainsaw and cut the webapp in half, right down the
middle. Ditch the archive that contains everything and has its own
deployment mechanisms. Ditch struts and its misery. Stick the "view"
in PHP and put it in the content managment system out there with the
designers. Talk to services with the view over SOAP. Do the services
in Java/.NET if you like misery, or do them in PHP if you don't. Do
them in both. Change your mind. SOA lets you do that.

What's clear in this context is that a PHP page blows away a JSP and
ASPx page. The power of PHP versus JSP/ASP. Much faster and less
clunky. ASPx, well to do ASP in our CMS we'd have to completely move
to IIS and put that out front. I don't think so.

Just my 2 cents.

Jul 17 '05 #37

P: n/a
Perfect Reign wrote:
It ia - like Java - a semi-compiled language in that a binary IL is
created and exectued by a runtime. Microsoft's thing is that a
programmer could write in any language - C#, VB.NET, COBOL - that has
a dot net implementation and have it run on a given platform.
How is that vastly different from the following statement: A programmer
could write in any language that has a platform implementation and run
it on a given platform.
It is all the rage.
BFD.
We were just discussing this issue. I work with a group of roughly 100
programmers for a large county. Although the majority of coding is and
has been done in COBOL, almost all of our client-server stuff had been
done in VB and then VB/ASP.

A large discussion is going on as to what language should be adopted
as "the standard" for future development. Because a sizable block of
programmers are familiar with VB - and ONLY VB - they are recommending
dot net be THE programming language. I've brought up Java, C++ and PHP
as alternatives, but this is falling on deaf ears.
That's because they, like so many others, are not judging the choice of
implementation language on the merits of the language itself and the
requirements of the tasks at hand but simply going with "all the rage".
In addition, if you look around you won't find many jobs with
employers actively seeking PHP developers, even though it is - IMO -
more flexible than dot net.


Are you kidding me?!? There are lots of PHP jobs, as well as Perl jobs,
etc...
--
Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE!

Jul 17 '05 #38

P: n/a
Matt Mitchell wrote:
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:d4*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
: ri*******@e-connected.com wrote:
: > c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
: > (certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and
: > Enterprise Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger
: > projects.
:
: I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
: There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
: larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
: therefore need such a solution.

<cough>slashdot</cough>


OK please decipher. Slashdot what?
--
Does fuzzy logic tickle?

Jul 17 '05 #39

P: n/a
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:43:38 GMT, Andrew DeFaria <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote:
Matt Mitchell wrote:
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:d4*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
: ri*******@e-connected.com wrote:
: > c# being like Java (strongly typed etc.) and with such emphasis
: > (certainly through the development environments) on SOAP and
: > Enterprise Scale development are probably more suited for the bigger
: > projects.
:
: I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
: There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
: larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
: therefore need such a solution.

<cough>slashdot</cough>


OK please decipher. Slashdot what?


I was wondering the same thing. Was the implication that Slashdot is a large
project? It doesn't look it - downloading the latest Slashcode and running a
very naive line count on it [1] gives only about 55,000 LOC, including all the
HTML, templates and so on. Slashdot's a fairly feature-poor message board -
it's high traffic, but that doesn't make a "large project". The Sourceforge
page lists just 10 developers; no idea if that's accurate.

[1]:
andyh@excession ~/src
$ find slash-2.2.6 -type f ! -name '*.gif' | xargs cat | egrep -v '^[ \t]*$' |
wc -l
54700

--
Andy Hassall / <an**@andyh.co.uk> / <http://www.andyh.co.uk>
<http://www.andyhsoftware.co.uk/space> Space: disk usage analysis tool
Jul 17 '05 #40

P: n/a
"Matt Mitchell" <m_****************************@metalsponge.net> wrote in
message news:5R********************@fe3.news.blueyonder.co .uk...
Again, the bulk of the scripts that you see are coded as single flat files, one for each "visible" webpage, resulting in a lot of code duplication, poor separation of code + data, etc. One thing that PHP does have over java, is the ability to include code dynamically, and careful design can ensure that requesting a page doesn't require the whole application to be started.
Cacheing systems reduce the start-up time.


<cough>www.php.net</cough>
Jul 17 '05 #41

P: n/a
"Michael Vilain" <vi****@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:vi**************************@comcast.dca.giga news.com...
Perhaps. But I had a head hunter critique my resume wanting to see more
emphasis on the business/database stuff I'd done. When he asked if I
had any COBOL experience, I figured I didn't need to work with him.
Same for the company that felt I wasn't professional enough at the
interview because I wore "standard business attire" (dress slacks,
shirt, tie, and sport coat) rather than a 3-piece suit. Nowadays, my
guess is you'd get a hard time showing up to an interview wearing a tie
here in the Silicon Valley.
I have seem ads asking for Fortran in a web programming position :-)

Regarding dress it depends on where you are though. Here in DC you'd almost
automatically be out of running if you don't show up in a suit.
If you want to work with M$, fine. Learn the technology. Otherwise
decide on the scope of your work and choose non-clueless head hunters
accordingly.


But often it's not up to you to choose the technology. In my current project
the hosting environment is Windows while the client is expected to run on
Solaris. Who am I to tell them that the setup is ass-backward?

BTW: I work for the government.
Jul 17 '05 #42

P: n/a
> PHP is the single most popular subject on the web. Bigger than
Christmas in December.

Using it did quick survey for results
PHP 768,000,000


I'm not sure if you're serious with this argument. It certainly seems like
you are. Try googling for "HTML" and considering the relevance of the
result you get. Perhaps we should all be switching to that?

The OP was talking about employment opportunities with skills in different
technologies. How often a name or acronym appears in front of Google's web
crawler hardly seems an important metric in that context.

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>
Jul 17 '05 #43

P: n/a
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:_%*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
: > : I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
: > : There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
: > : larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
: > : therefore need such a solution.
: >
: > <cough>slashdot</cough>
:
: OK please decipher. Slashdot what?
: --
: Does fuzzy logic tickle?

Large application written in perl, running under high load????
Jul 17 '05 #44

P: n/a
"Chung Leong" <ch***********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:j7********************@comcast.com...
: "Matt Mitchell" <m_****************************@metalsponge.net> wrote in
: message news:5R********************@fe3.news.blueyonder.co .uk...
: > Again, the bulk of the scripts that you see are coded as single flat
: files,
: > one for each "visible" webpage, resulting in a lot of code duplication,
: poor
: > separation of code + data, etc. One thing that PHP does have over java,
: is
: > the ability to include code dynamically, and careful design can ensure
: that
: > requesting a page doesn't require the whole application to be started.
: > Cacheing systems reduce the start-up time.
:
: <cough>www.php.net</cough>

php.net being another site that *isn't* written using asp/java, yet still
handles a considerable amount of traffic
Jul 17 '05 #45

P: n/a
Matt Mitchell wrote:
"Andrew DeFaria" <An****@DeFaria.com> wrote in message
news:_%*******************@typhoon.sonic.net...
: > : I agree. But I would add that being "big" is not the only qualifier.
: > : There are jobs that are suited to such technologies. They tend to be
: > : larger projects but that does not translate to all large projects
: > : therefore need such a solution.
: >
: > <cough>slashdot</cough>
:
: OK please decipher. Slashdot what?
: --
: Does fuzzy logic tickle?

Large application written in perl, running under high load????


My statement was that the Java/C#/.net things are generally more suited
to larger applications but just because its large does not necessarily
mean that Java/C#/.net is the appropriate choice. So then this
<cough>ing</cough> stuff is just agreeing with me. I thought that he was
trying to say that my statement wasn't true - that's what was confusing
me...

--
If you drink, don't park. Accidents cause people.

Jul 17 '05 #46

P: n/a
I noticed that Message-ID:
<Vs********************@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.u k> from Matt Mitchell
contained the following:
: <cough>www.php.net</cough>

php.net being another site that *isn't* written using asp/java, yet still
handles a considerable amount of traffic


tinyurl.com - PHP and MySql

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Jul 17 '05 #47

P: n/a
Geoff Berrow wrote:
I noticed that Message-ID:
<Vs********************@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.u k> from Matt Mitchell
contained the following:
: <cough>www.php.net</cough>

php.net being another site that *isn't* written using asp/java, yet
still handles a considerable amount of traffic


tinyurl.com - PHP and MySql


PHPNuke, various Wiki's (I run one at http://quikiwiki.com a Wiki for
Quicken), Gallery, MovableType. Examples abound!
--
Anytime four New Yorkers get into a cab together without arguing, a bank
robbery has just taken place.

Jul 17 '05 #48

P: n/a
Matt Mitchell wrote:

<snip>
One thing that PHP does have over java,
is the ability to include code dynamically, and careful design can ensure
that requesting a page doesn't require the whole application to be
started. Cacheing systems reduce the start-up time.


What?

What makes you think J2EE cannot include code dynamically?
This is misinformation.

If you want you can even dynamically write a fresh JSP-page, and then call
it. It works.
Tomcat (or whatever container you use) will take care of the compilation at
requesttime.

I don't think there is anything Java cannot do, that PHP can.

Oh yes, I love PHP, and it is my first choice for most projects, but Java is
so much more powerfull.

I thought you wrote elsewhere in this thread that you didn't use Java, so
why do you claim such things, Matt?

Regards,
Erwin Moller
Jul 17 '05 #49

P: n/a
"Erwin Moller"
<si******************************************@spam yourself.com> wrote in
message news:42***********************@news.xs4all.nl...
: What makes you think J2EE cannot include code dynamically?
: This is misinformation.
:
: If you want you can even dynamically write a fresh JSP-page, and then call
: it. It works.
: Tomcat (or whatever container you use) will take care of the compilation
at
: requesttime.
:
: I don't think there is anything Java cannot do, that PHP can.
:
: Oh yes, I love PHP, and it is my first choice for most projects, but Java
is
: so much more powerfull.
:
: I thought you wrote elsewhere in this thread that you didn't use Java, so
: why do you claim such things, Matt?

Have sone some, but nothing large-scale in the same kind of way!

/me slinks off to rtfDocs...

Matt
Jul 17 '05 #50

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