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Comparison of DB2 and Oracle?

P: n/a
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

--
Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #1
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119 Replies


P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
>
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Jun 27 '08 #2

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please take your pathetic attempts to some other group. Perhaps
alt.bored.troll.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #3

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
I have logged your previous attempts to start a flame war and no one
with an IQ over room temperature is going to fall for this one either.

Take your wasted life to alt.bored.trolls and post there.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #4

P: n/a
tell your friend Scott that he should stop wasting his time with DB2 and Oracle.

Use Ingres instead, it does the same stuff as the other 2, but its FREE.

Regards
Michael Newport
Jun 27 '08 #5

P: n/a

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.netwrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...
Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server
Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #6

P: n/a

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...
Rhino wrote:
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling
him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with
DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons
for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views
on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.
Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have had to
answer.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #7

P: n/a
Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions. This
stuff is almost religious to some people. The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms
- search the tech media for any reviews of each product
- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table

By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Larry Edelstein

Rhino wrote:
"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.netwrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...
>>Rhino wrote:

>>>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.


So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?

>>2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server


Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.

Rhino

Jun 27 '08 #8

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
>

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?

You can't - the exercise as you have it is a little facile. As a
suggestion, why not recommend a process to your friend, rather than just
an outcome. For instance

1) Work out what criteria are most important for you, for the given
situation (for instance, how you evaluate software depends on what you
want to use the software for, and databases can be used for many things
- from simple data management, to high end OLTP, to very, very large
Data Warehouse environments, and even more lately, to Content
Management). Other options such as price, support, market support,
platforms availability etc may also be relevant.

2) Evaluate the different offerings against this criteria. This may
require that you research the product's web site, read the doc, perhaps
even download and try. Definitely talk to each vendors sales
representatives - typically try to get to the more technical sales
consultants. As you go, use the newsgroup to validate your understanding
of what each offering does and does not do, and what you may have been told.

3) When you come up with a potential best candidate, validate your
decision. Seek references that best match your criteria. Talk to the
technical people in each reference account. Also ask to talk to the
users in each reference account (the two are often at odds as to what is
actually happening).

4) Then choose Oracle :-)

Jun 27 '08 #9

P: n/a

"michael newport" <mi************@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:63*************************@posting.google.co m...
tell your friend Scott that he should stop wasting his time with DB2 and
Oracle.
>
Use Ingres instead, it does the same stuff as the other 2, but its FREE.
Thank you, that is also a useful answer.

But is cost the only reason you are recommending Ingres or does it do more
things better than Oracle and DB2? I haven't used Ingres either so I have no
idea. I'm pretty sure Scott has not used it either.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #10

P: n/a

"Larry E" <la***@nospam.netwrote in message
news:Wt********************@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...
Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).
Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.
Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.
This
stuff is almost religious to some people.
That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.
The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms
There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)
- search the tech media for any reviews of each product
Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?
- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table
Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.
By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"
Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.

Rhino
>
Rhino wrote:
"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.netwrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...
>Rhino wrote:
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
>>want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at
which
>>jobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful
answer
rather than in flames?

>2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I
didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent
on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I
tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it
is.

Rhino

Jun 27 '08 #11

P: n/a

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.netwrote in message
news:ZYQcd.262640$MQ5.163157@attbi_s52...
Rhino wrote:


So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful
answer
rather than in flames?

You can't - the exercise as you have it is a little facile. As a
suggestion, why not recommend a process to your friend, rather than just
an outcome. For instance

1) Work out what criteria are most important for you, for the given
situation (for instance, how you evaluate software depends on what you
want to use the software for, and databases can be used for many things
- from simple data management, to high end OLTP, to very, very large
Data Warehouse environments, and even more lately, to Content
Management). Other options such as price, support, market support,
platforms availability etc may also be relevant.

2) Evaluate the different offerings against this criteria. This may
require that you research the product's web site, read the doc, perhaps
even download and try. Definitely talk to each vendors sales
representatives - typically try to get to the more technical sales
consultants. As you go, use the newsgroup to validate your understanding
of what each offering does and does not do, and what you may have been
told.
>
3) When you come up with a potential best candidate, validate your
decision. Seek references that best match your criteria. Talk to the
technical people in each reference account. Also ask to talk to the
users in each reference account (the two are often at odds as to what is
actually happening).

4) Then choose Oracle :-)
Thank you! Those are all excellent suggestions. (I'm ignoring your 4th
suggestion due to the obvious bias ;-)

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #12

P: n/a
Mark Townsend wrote:
Rhino wrote:
>>
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server
Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans
Jun 27 '08 #13

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
"Larry E" <la***@nospam.netwrote in message
news:Wt********************@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...
>>Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).

Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.

>>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.


That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

>>This
stuff is almost religious to some people.


That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.

>>The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms


There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)
Sorry ... it's "Meta Group" not "Mega". My fault.
>
>>- search the tech media for any reviews of each product


Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?
Perhaps CMP Media. Info Week, EWeek, Computerworld ...
>
>>- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table

Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.

>>By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"


Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.
That's why you're just not gonna get what you're looking for here.
>
Rhino
>>Rhino wrote:
>>>"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.netwrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...
Rhino wrote:

>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott

just
>>>>>want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at

which
>>>>>jobs.
>

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful

answer
>>>rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server
Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I

didn't
>>>know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent

on-topic
>>>posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I

tried
>>>that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it

is.
>>>Rhino


Jun 27 '08 #14

P: n/a
DA Morgan <da******@x.washington.eduwrites:
Rhino wrote:
>One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.
Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:
1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and
Oracle?
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to
help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please take your pathetic attempts to some other group. Perhaps
alt.bored.troll.
It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

--
#include <disclaimer.std /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham la*****@us.ibm.com
Jun 27 '08 #15

P: n/a
Richard D. Latham wrote:
>

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)
Especially the part about not having access to news, but able to monitor
google. I'd have concerns about any consultant who doesn't know how to get
free email such as gmail.google.com, or use groups.google.com

I s'pose the might be a legit reason, but ...
Jun 27 '08 #16

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
>>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.


That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.
So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

Or do you think you or your imaginary friend are in any position to
evaluate the values of shared-everything vs shared-nothing? How about
the value of procedure code compilation options? Bulk collection?
Multi-version read consistency? Do you really think there is any value
there based on your set-up?

I don't!
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #17

P: n/a
Richard D. Latham wrote:
It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)
I have an associate that always knows exactly which product to
recommend. The one where he makes the greatest commission. Oh but
then he sells life insurance. ;-)

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #18

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...
>>Rhino wrote:
>>>One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling

him
>>>how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with

DB2
>>>but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons

for
>>>him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information

produced
>>>by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views

on
>>>two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have had to
answer.

Rhino
I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.

But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.

So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #19

P: n/a
I used Ingres for 15 years
I have now used Oracle for 1 year
I am doing the same work now that I did on Ingres, except Oracle costs
a lot of money, and Ingres is free.

You can download Ingres from www.ca.com and give it a test.
Jun 27 '08 #20

P: n/a
"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.cawrote in message news:<33*****************@news20.bellglobal.com>.. .
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
etcetcetc...

Hmmm, lemme get this straight: Scott is a consultant
with lots of life-experience and he can figure out when
he's being given a ride. But, he doesn't know much about
databases... And he doesn't have access to newsgroups. But
he can use google newsgroups to follow a discussion.
Yet he doesnt know how to post in google newsgroups.

Hmmmmmmmmmm............

I'm sorry, but Scott reads as a fake. His password is not "TIGER",
is it? And the free class for "would be marketeers looking for an
easy ride on the next positioning paper" is now closed.
Too boring to do all over again. Private contributions
to my preferred charity are, of course, accepted.

This is *not* a troll
Of course not!
and we don't want to start a flame war!
Perish the thought...
Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
Scott needs to read more about both products. And
learn more about IT, particularly databases.
Instead of hoping a Usenet discussion
is going to provide a free ride.

<plonk>
Jun 27 '08 #21

P: n/a
Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.netwrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...
Mark Townsend wrote:
Rhino wrote:
>
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans
-----------------

Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.
Jun 27 '08 #22

P: n/a
Bruce M wrote:
>
Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.
Not quite. I warned that I had a bias AND I didn't say anything technical
<g>
Jun 27 '08 #23

P: n/a

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...
Rhino wrote:
>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and
DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?
I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so that
they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #24

P: n/a

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:1098158866.213704@yasure...
Rhino wrote:
"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...
>Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be
telling

him
>>how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with
DB2
>>but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons
for
>>him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
>>by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their
views

on
>>two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and
Oracle?
>>
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to
help
>>someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
>>want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at
which
>>jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.
Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to
people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of
my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never
posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure
out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one
over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have
had to
answer.

Rhino

I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.
Well, I don't know how to convince you of that beyond what I've already
said.
But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.
I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.

He is rather new to systems work - I think he is just out of school - and he
doesn't had much contact with databases yet. He has heard names like Oracle
and DB2 and asked me which was best. I have no Oracle experience so I
suggested he post here and on the Oracle newsgroup but he doesn't have
newsgroup access at work or at home so I posted for him.

Now maybe that seems preposterous to you but it happens to be the truth.
So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.
I don't think Scott has a specific requirement in mind yet so I thought I'd
ask a general question on the pros and cons of DB2 vs. Oracle. If that
doesn't suit you, feel free to ignore this thread. It would be more positive
that calling me a liar.

Rhino

Jun 27 '08 #25

P: n/a

"Noons" <wi*******@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:73**************************@posting.google.c om...
"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.cawrote in message
news:<33*****************@news20.bellglobal.com>.. .
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling
him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

etcetcetc...

Hmmm, lemme get this straight: Scott is a consultant
with lots of life-experience and he can figure out when
he's being given a ride. But, he doesn't know much about
databases... And he doesn't have access to newsgroups. But
he can use google newsgroups to follow a discussion.
Yet he doesnt know how to post in google newsgroups.

Hmmmmmmmmmm............

I'm sorry, but Scott reads as a fake. His password is not "TIGER",
is it? And the free class for "would be marketeers looking for an
easy ride on the next positioning paper" is now closed.
Too boring to do all over again. Private contributions
to my preferred charity are, of course, accepted.

This is *not* a troll

Of course not!
Please see my reply to DA Morgan where I explained Scott's situation in a
bit more detail. The fact is his employer doesn't allow newsgroup access at
work - I've encountered other (foolish) employers who followed the same
policy - and he plans to get newwgroup access at home but is in the middle
of a move to a new house right now. He will get newsgroup access in a few
weeks once he's settled in his new house. *I* told him about Google's
newsgroup reading capabilities so that he could read these replies from his
browser; I don't think he knew about Google newsgroup archives before.

Since none of that is relevant to the question at hand, I omitted it from
the post. Besides, what possible benefit could I get from making him up?? I
was simply trying to explain that I was asking a question for a friend who
had such-and-such a level of understanding of database. Period.

Now, do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion?
and we don't want to start a flame war!

Perish the thought...
Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Scott needs to read more about both products. And
learn more about IT, particularly databases.
Instead of hoping a Usenet discussion
is going to provide a free ride.
Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #26

P: n/a
Rhino,

There is no way to discuss pros and cons of DB2 and Oracle in a
constructive way (i.e. in a way that would provide value to the
customer) without going back to specific customer requirements, which
you are telling us that he doesn't have. There just isn't a good answer.
The first thing he needs to learn to be a successful consultant is that
EVERYTHING begins with customer requirements. It's kinda like going car
shopping and asking the dealers to compare a Nissan Altima with a Honda
Accord. You need to know certain things about how you're going to use
the car to make heads or tails of what they are going to tell you.

Larry Edelstein

Rhino wrote:
"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:1098158866.213704@yasure...
>>Rhino wrote:

>>>"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...
Rhino wrote:
>One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
>newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be

telling
>>>him
>how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
>
>Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
>understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with

DB2
>but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons

for
>him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
>choose or recommend a database to his clients.
>
>Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information

produced
>by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
>DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their

views
>>>on
>two questions:
>
>1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and

Oracle?
>>>>>2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to

help
>>>>>someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?
>
>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott

just
>>>>>want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at

which
>>>>>jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.
Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to

people's
>>>questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of

my
>>>own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never

posted
>>>there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure

out
>>>how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one

over
>>>the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have

had to
>>>answer.

Rhino

I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.

Well, I don't know how to convince you of that beyond what I've already
said.

>>But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.

I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.

He is rather new to systems work - I think he is just out of school - and he
doesn't had much contact with databases yet. He has heard names like Oracle
and DB2 and asked me which was best. I have no Oracle experience so I
suggested he post here and on the Oracle newsgroup but he doesn't have
newsgroup access at work or at home so I posted for him.

Now maybe that seems preposterous to you but it happens to be the truth.

>>So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.


I don't think Scott has a specific requirement in mind yet so I thought I'd
ask a general question on the pros and cons of DB2 vs. Oracle. If that
doesn't suit you, feel free to ignore this thread. It would be more positive
that calling me a liar.

Rhino
Jun 27 '08 #27

P: n/a

"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.cawrote in message
news:Lx********************@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>
"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...
Rhino wrote:
>>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
>>going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
>
>
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle
and
DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that
is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.
So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?
I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so
that
they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino

I liked Oracle better because the concurrency model is much nicer. I found
that you had to run DB2 in autocommit mode if you used dynamic SQL because
of page locks on the plan table. Never had to worry about that in Oracle.
That doesn't really tell you much. It would be much better if you actually
did some work and said what your business needs.
Jim
Jun 27 '08 #28

P: n/a
DB2 UDB for LUW does not have page locks.. Only row and table level
Jun 27 '08 #29

P: n/a
michael newport wrote:
I used Ingres for 15 years
I have now used Oracle for 1 year
I am doing the same work now that I did on Ingres, except Oracle costs
a lot of money, and Ingres is free.

You can download Ingres from www.ca.com and give it a test.
Perhaps rather than doing on Oracle what you used to do on Ingres you
should try leveraging what Oracle can do and do things differently.

Your statement is roughly equivalent to ... I used to build houses
with a hammer. Now I work in a glass factory and ....

Had you said 15 years of Ingres and 1 year of DB2 or Informix or 3x5
cards I'd have given the same advice.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #30

P: n/a
Bruce M wrote:
Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.netwrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...
>>Mark Townsend wrote:

>>>Rhino wrote:
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>
>>>2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans


-----------------

Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.
Well I'll gladly bow my head and pray that he and all other trolls go
away forever. That's about as religious as I'm willing to get. It is
no wonder Rhinos are an endangered species.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #31

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.eduwrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...
>>Rhino wrote:

>>>>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and

DB2
>>>but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so that
they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino
I've used both and would gladly tell you which I prefer and why. But not
when, in my opinion, you start off with a bold faced lie. Following that
lie you then claim to not be a troll and not to be trying to start a
flame war.

I wasn't going to believe the first lie ... why should I not suspect the
second and third statements of being of equal value?

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #32

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.
I wouldn't believe you if he wrote me a check. Your statements were
preposterous on their face: And they still are.

If you want information on these products go to http://www.ibm.com and
http://otn.oracle.com. Your credibility in all of these groups among, it
seems, all posters is zero.

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #33

P: n/a
Rhino wrote:
Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino
And exactly what you are not going to get as I haven't found a single
post from anyone that believes you. It is absolutely impossible for the
situation you presented to be true.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #34

P: n/a
Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.netwrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...
...functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.
I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:

1. "workflow". What exactly is this? A bunch of boxes connected with
arrows with some state flowing through them? A very rudimentary
execution environment, if you ask me: no composite data structures, no
exception handling, no debugger, or other things that we take for
granted in any decent programming language today. Does workflow scale
when comlexity increases? And finally how does workflow fit into SQL
execution? I bet any seasonamble programming would prefer to deal with
business logic in a conventional programming language rather than
workflow.

2. "message queueing". Isn't message queue just a table? If it is,
then wouldn't it be easy to leverage SQL interface instead of goofy
PL/SQL API?

3. "http request/response capability". Isn't apache no longer a part
of default server installation in 10g?
Jun 27 '08 #35

P: n/a
Mikito Harakiri wrote:
Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.netwrote in message
news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...
>...functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:
The value is simply in having a wheel around that doesn't need to be
re-invented and maintained.

No matter how much one explains these away with "isn't it just ...",
developers always seme to be reinventing these "justs". What you call
"bells and whistles" seem to be a base requirement in 90% of the projects
I've seen in the past 3 years - only the developer's don't realize the
bells are already there so they either build or buy a completely new set.

If that wasn't true, JMS, MQ Series Queuing and Workflow (oh, sorry - it's
WebSphere now), and the like would not have a reason for being.

Or are you saying - let's get back to commoditizing the SQL engine so we can
recover some of the revenue from these capabilities? Or continue stretching
project timelines to accomplish stuff that already exists? <g>

/Hans
Jun 27 '08 #36

P: n/a

"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.ibm.comwrote in message
news:2t*************@uni-berlin.de...
DB2 UDB for LUW does not have page locks.. Only row and table level
Doesn't it still have a problem with dynamic SQL such that it locks the plan
table so people who need to bind programs with the database have to wait
until the transaction competes. Thus if one issues dynamic SQL and doesn't
commit for several minutes it will prevent (serialize) those programmers
from binding their programs with the database.
Jim
Jun 27 '08 #37

P: n/a
mi*****************@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a*************************@posting.google.c om>...
I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Because you reject that they can be useful?
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
Most definitely not. That is a file system. A *database* (that is what the
"D" in RDBMS stands for) is not even necessarily a SQL execution engine:
it could be an execution engine for many other languages. And then there
is the *relational* bit attached to it: the "R". IF you don't know what that
means and what it can do *way beyond* SQL itself ever will, then there
is no point in going there. Just use it as a "SQL engine". While others laugh.
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:
Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?
Jun 27 '08 #38

P: n/a
Daniel,

in Ingres I wrote 4GL, in Oracle I write PL/SQL
in Ingres I wrote SQL, in Oracle I write SQL
in Ingres I ran an overnight batch from a Unix cron job, in Oracle I
schedule a dbms_job
in Ingres my results went to a database table, in Oracle my results go
to a database table
in Ingres I wrote a user parameterized report, in Oracle I write a
user parameterized report
in Ingres I ran the report with a system call, in Oracle I use Oracle
Reports server (with all its nasty bugs)

Ingres is free, Oracle is not

did I miss something ?

Regards
Michael Newport
Jun 27 '08 #39

P: n/a
I have never heard of such a problem and if it ever existed I would
consider it a bug.
Checking....

Cheers
Serge
Jun 27 '08 #40

P: n/a
Noons wrote:
mi*****************@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a*************************@posting.google.c om>...
>>I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Because you reject that they can be useful?
Because often they are not useful, or priceworthy, for a given specific
application. I think a core point of this, carefully flame free, thread
so far has been that on eneeds to know ones requirements to knwo which
"bells and whistles" are needed in a specific case.
>>Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
Most definitely not. That is a file system. A *database* (that is what the
"D" in RDBMS stands for) is not even necessarily a SQL execution engine:
it could be an execution engine for many other languages. And then there
is the *relational* bit attached to it: the "R". IF you don't know what that
means and what it can do *way beyond* SQL itself ever will, then there
is no point in going there. Just use it as a "SQL engine". While others laugh.
Uhm.. while splitting hair one must be careful not to cut ones fingers.
A database is a repository. Its just sits there. Quiet and dumb.
It's that MS (management system) part that does all the work. To the
best of my knowledge neither Oracle nor IBM are in the business of
selling databases.
Now that R correlates, for all major RDBMS that I know, quite well with
SQL as it's access language. Do you know of other languages commonly
used in an RDBMS? Yes, there could be, but there aren't.
Now products have a tendency to evolve beyond the original purpose.
All major vendors support procedural extensions of some sort which are
more or less interacting with the relational engine.
And different vendors have different opinion on how many extensions to
the core should be part of that core RDBMS or stay components to be
added on.
Each his/her religion I 'spose. In the end RDBMS integrate with other
middleware and apps. Be it as the killer product or a component of one.
There is a lot of bloat going on in the market (and I'm not excluding
any vendor)
and that's where the open source products come in...
>>everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:
Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?
He may be part of a significant part of the customer base for RDBMS.
Not everyone needs a Winnebago. Some folks just want to commute to
work... Mind you that doesn't make Winnebagos bad

Cheers
Serge
Jun 27 '08 #41

P: n/a
OK, here is the deal:
When you execute a dynamic statement which depends on table T.
DB2 will hold a usage lock on T until the end of the transaction.
So noone will be able to alter T (in a non-trivial way) until this
transaction is over.
An alternate design would be to release the lock after usage.
However in the interest of keeping the cache fast the capturing of locks
needs to be minimized. Schema evolution is considered a much rarer (more
rare??) event than cache-hits

Does that answer the comment?

Cheers
Serge
Jun 27 '08 #42

P: n/a

"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.ibm.comwrote in message
news:2t*************@uni-berlin.de...
OK, here is the deal:
When you execute a dynamic statement which depends on table T.
DB2 will hold a usage lock on T until the end of the transaction.
So noone will be able to alter T (in a non-trivial way) until this
transaction is over.
An alternate design would be to release the lock after usage.
However in the interest of keeping the cache fast the capturing of locks
needs to be minimized. Schema evolution is considered a much rarer (more
rare??) event than cache-hits

Does that answer the comment?

Cheers
Serge
Here was the behavior that was observed. (on db2 on a mainframe)
1. Issue commit;
2. Issue a select statement (like select ... from mytable where ...)
3. People try to bind their programs and no dice.
4. Minutes pass and programmers start calling because they can't get their
work done.
5. Issue a commit (or rollback).
6. People can now bind their programs.

The explanation according to the manual was that DB2 doesn't do dynamic SQL,
it takes dynamic SQL and turns it into static SQL and then binds that static
SQL and runs it. Since a commit happens minutes later access to the plan
table is serialized. OUCH!

We observed this behavior and so had to turn the system into an autocommit
system just so we didn't turn a multi million dollar machine into the
equivalent of an based 8080 PC.

This went on for at least a couple of years and then I went onto other
companies.
Jim
Jun 27 '08 #43

P: n/a
Jim,

I can't comment on DB2 for zOS. Would be interested to know whether this
behaviour is still in existence and whether it was condidered working as
designed or a bug (e.g. a bad lock).
The behaviour you describe seems to indicate that users also wouldn't be
able to bind static apps concurrently.....

Cheers
Serge
Jun 27 '08 #44

P: n/a
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.ibm.comwrote in message news:<2t*************@uni-berlin.de>...
Now that R correlates, for all major RDBMS that I know, quite well with
SQL as it's access language. Do you know of other languages commonly
used in an RDBMS? Yes, there could be, but there aren't.
Yes I do, and yes there are. Quel from Ingres is one of them.
They still make it available, last time I looked. Sure it's not
much used and anyone using anything other than SQL must have rocks
on their head or doing research. That's not the point, though.
The point is that relational != SQL. Period. A DML is not a
data storage theory.
There is a lot of bloat going on in the market (and I'm not excluding
any vendor)
and that's where the open source products come in...
Absolutely. But let's bot in the name of marketing subvert
theory, OK?
Not everyone needs a Winnebago. Some folks just want to commute to
work... Mind you that doesn't make Winnebagos bad
They better all have at least four wheels...
Jun 27 '08 #45

P: n/a
Noons wrote:
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.ibm.comwrote in message news:<2t*************@uni-berlin.de>...
>>Now that R correlates, for all major RDBMS that I know, quite well with
SQL as it's access language. Do you know of other languages commonly
used in an RDBMS? Yes, there could be, but there aren't.
Yes I do, and yes there are. Quel from Ingres is one of them.
They still make it available, last time I looked. Sure it's not
much used and anyone using anything other than SQL must have rocks
on their head or doing research. That's not the point, though.
The point is that relational != SQL. Period. A DML is not a
data storage theory.
... and that's where many, many customer's installations ail.
They believe by storing their data in tables and having some RI they are
using an RDBMS.
All they have done is found persistent storage for their data which then
is "processed" using nested cursors and procedural languages.
It's the curse of providing PL/SQL, SQL PL, SPL, TSQL....
The _center piece_ of RDBMS: "relational alegbra" ends up as roadkill in
the ditch. 30 years of research and all there is to show for it is that
data is stored in tables.

I should be fine with it.. it does sell hardware.

Cheers
Serge
Jun 27 '08 #46

P: n/a
Comments in-line.

michael newport wrote:
Daniel,

in Ingres I wrote 4GL, in Oracle I write PL/SQL
Because you don't know how to write Java in the database?
in Ingres I wrote SQL, in Oracle I write SQL
Because you don't know how to write Java in the database?
in Ingres I ran an overnight batch from a Unix cron job, in Oracle I
schedule a dbms_job
Or dbms_scheduler
Or UNIX cron job
Or AppWorx
Or any one of a large number of other possible solutions.
in Ingres my results went to a database table, in Oracle my results go
to a database table
I'm impressed.
in Ingres I wrote a user parameterized report, in Oracle I write a
user parameterized report
Similarly impressed.
in Ingres I ran the report with a system call, in Oracle I use Oracle
Reports server (with all its nasty bugs)
Then you made a horrible choice of reporting software.
Ingres is free, Oracle is not

did I miss something ?

Regards
Michael Newport
What did you miss?

1. Security model
2. Scalability
3. Performance
4. Shared Everything Architecture
5. RAC
6. DataGuard
7. RMAN
8. User defined indexes
9. User defined operators
10. User defined locking
11. Domain indexes
12. Reverse-key indexes
13. Compressed indexes
14. Function based indexes
15. Sequences
16. User defined data types
17. Partitioning and Subpartitioning
18. Global Temporary Tables
19. External Tables
20. Index Organized Tables
21. Enterprise level support 7x24x365
22. Books at Amazon.com
(Oracle 27,707 hits, DB2 1,955 hits, Ingres 0 hits if refering to
your product)
23. Jobs at Dice.com
(Oracle 8,097 jobs, DB2 1,779 jobs, Ingres 18 jobs)
24. Jobs at Monster.com
25. Jobs at Hotjobs.com
26. Packages
27. Native compilation into C of PL/SQL
28. TAF (transparent application failover)
29. A prayer the product will still exist in 10 years.

I think I've made my point.

If you want a more valid comparison ... compare Ingres to MySQL,
PostgreSQL, Firebird, 3x5 cards. The difference will still be
more books, more jobs, and more chance it will survive 5 years.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Jun 27 '08 #47

P: n/a

"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.ibm.comwrote in message
news:2t*************@uni-berlin.de...
Jim,

I can't comment on DB2 for zOS. Would be interested to know whether this
behaviour is still in existence and whether it was condidered working as
designed or a bug (e.g. a bad lock).
The behaviour you describe seems to indicate that users also wouldn't be
able to bind static apps concurrently.....

Cheers
Serge
I can't tell you since I don't use DB2 anymore and we don't have a mainframe
where I work. I would expect that DB2 would work the same regardless of OS.
(not counting OS limitations ) IBM didn't consider it a bug. I was doing
work for American Transtech at the time (a subsidiary of ATT, certainly a
large enough customer to get attention). People couldn't bind apps
concurrently, but since the machine was fast enough people wouldn't notice.
Jim
Jun 27 '08 #48

P: n/a
DA Morgan wrote:
>in Ingres I ran the report with a system call, in Oracle I use Oracle
Reports server (with all its nasty bugs)

Then you made a horrible choice of reporting software.
You're right. Often overlooked is Oracle's free SQLPlus & iSQLPlus which,
with it's formatting capability will satisfy, a significant percentage of
all reports. Especially when coupled with the new raw SQL grouping
functions available such as period-over-period comparisons, etc. (No need
even to go OLAP)

Sometimes the simplest solutions are best, no matter how much people sneer
at them! (I already hear the howls: but , but ... <G>)

/Hans
Jun 27 '08 #49

P: n/a
correction you thought that you had made your point...

You can also use JAVA on Ingres.

1. Security model same
2. Scalability - same
3. Performance - same

4. Shared Everything Architecture - equivalent
5. RAC - equivalent
6. DataGuard - equivalent
7. RMAN - equivalent
28. TAF (transparent application failover) - equivalent

8. User defined indexes - same
9. User defined operators - same
10. User defined locking - nice but never needed
11. Domain indexes - nice but never needed
12. Reverse-key indexes - same
13. Compressed indexes - same
14. Function based indexes - nice but never needed
15. Sequences - same
16. User defined data types - same
17. Partitioning and Subpartitioning - same
18. Global Temporary Tables - same
19. External Tables - same
20. Index Organized Tables - same
21. Enterprise level support 7x24x365 - same

22. Books at Amazon.com
(Oracle 27,707 hits, DB2 1,955 hits, Ingres 0 hits if refering to
your product)
23. Jobs at Dice.com
(Oracle 8,097 jobs, DB2 1,779 jobs, Ingres 18 jobs)
24. Jobs at Monster.com
25. Jobs at Hotjobs.com

I agree that Oracle wins on the job front but that will change.
Would you rather keep your job and use Ingres ? or
keep Oracle and have your job outsourced to India ?

26. Packages - like programs ?
27. Native compilation into C of PL/SQL never needed this

29. A prayer the product will still exist in 10 years.
now that Ingres is Open Source it will still be here, why,

because its free

for the few things that Ingres does not have, Oracle is not worth the money ??

I know I have made my point !

Regards
Michael Newport
Jun 27 '08 #50

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