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IE and Firefox display different results

Hi, I created a website for a company and they wanted it in asp.net and this is not my first time using asp.net but when i check the site in internet explorer there are no errors but in Firefox everything is lined different.

Here is the site to show you what i mean. http://graztech-1.at.vwdhosting.net

One example would be to visit the bean bags section in firefox and the words are off to the side. Now the words are in a 3 column table under the pictures. If you need more information please let me know.


Can anyone help me fix this?
Jul 24 '07 #1
26 1648
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
For starters:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...00=1&verbose=1

Fix those, then goto the CSS validator and fix all of those.
Then see how they compare between firefox and IE
Jul 24 '07 #2
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
The problem, as always, is IE. Your doctype is incorrect and causes IE to go into quirks mode. See the Articles section about under html/css about doctypes.

As mentioned, validate your markup. It shows 25 html errors. Also, asp.net leans toward IE in its code production but IE is old, buggy and non-standard. Never use any version of IE as a reference browser for this reason. Always use a modern browser, such as Firefox or Opera. Then we can adjust for IE quirks and bugs.

I would normally suggest a strict doctype but what you did has produced deprecated markup, so you must use the transitional type.
Jul 24 '07 #3
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
Also, asp.net leans toward IE in its code production but IE is old, buggy and non-standard. Never use any version of IE as a reference browser for this reason. Always use a modern browser, such as Firefox or Opera. Then we can adjust for IE quirks and bugs.
Surely this is a bit strong Howard. You admit that asp.net leans towards IE and then advise never to use it. Web applications have the old bug bear of browser compatability, but IE accounts for 75% of users at last count. The boys & girls at MS act on reported bugs and I disagree that IE is necessarily old and buggy.

Are you anti-MS as well? What is so good about Firefox, Opera & Safari? Is it that they are not MS produced? Some have better features than others, but I like to design apps that work in my customer's browser and that is predominantly IE.
Jul 25 '07 #4
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
I didn't say not to use IE. I said not to use IE as a reference browser. IE is nine years behind web standards. It does not implement the DOM correctly. It doesn't implement CSS properly. It can't handle Xhtml served as Xhtml. It is the worst browser on the planet.

I advocate using ANY other browser, preferably Firefox, and code to web standards published by the W3C and supported by Microsoft and ALL browser vendors. Using a modern browser, such as FF, helps to assure that your markup is more correct because it, as well as Opera, do not have the way too many bugs and quirks that IE has.

Once you get your page working in FF, or Opera or Safari, then it's much easier to hack and adjust it for IEs quirks and bugs. Designing using IE almost assures you of your markup not working in ANY other browser.

Market share is not the target. Web standards compliance is. And IE is a poor performer in that area. Ask lead IE developer, Chris Wilson, and he will tell you the same, as he has said on IEBlog from Microsoft.

Is that a strong statement? No! All the web developers I know use Firefox or Safari and believe the same thing.

For your perusal, view this page and this page.

Using IE as an initial reference test browser is a flat out blunder. Don't do it. And if anyone needs more links to read about this, I've got hundreds of them.
Jul 25 '07 #5
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
It is the worst browser on the planet.
I was going to make chinsey little browser to prove you wrong but then remembered lynx for unix systems. Go go console-based browsers.
Jul 25 '07 #6
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
I was going to make chinsey little browser to prove you wrong but then remembered lynx for unix systems. Go go console-based browsers.
That'd be fairly easy to code in C#...

HttpWebRequest the page
Console.Writeline each line

DONE =P
Jul 25 '07 #7
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Now here's a quote from Chris Wilson before IE7 came out:
When we shipped IE 6.0, we finally fully supported CSS 1, and had some pieces of CSS2 implemented as well. ...We know we have a lot more work to do in addressing our consistency issues with CSS and furthering our coverage of these standards. Expect to see more detail on our plans in IE7 in the future.
Now Chris is the guy in charge of IE. He even used to write the code. Notice he said IE6 had "some pieces of CSS2 implemented". IE6 came out in 2001 and had NO improvements in CSS since then while ALL other browsers added CSS2.1 features and then ventured into CSS3.

What about their plans for IE7 mentioned above? They fixed 12 bugs and added four CSS attributes. That's it!
Jul 25 '07 #8
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
More fun with IE. How well does your browser support the DOM? Check it in IE, any version, then ANY other browser.

edit: I just tested this link in Lynx. Lynx has better support for the DOM than IE7!
Jul 25 '07 #9
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
It is the worst browser on the planet.
Wow, wow steady on fella. How does the 'worst browser' become the most popular? Your answer is marketing.
Market share is not the target. Web standards compliance is.
Maybe if we cared less about compliance and more about delivering users what they want we would have better applications? Sure we have to work with browser compatability, we have to encourage compliance, but at the end of the day we have to give the user what they want. If market share is not the target, then you are happy if no one uses your application?

Come on Howard, admit it you are anti-Ms. Trendy, anti-establishment and based on emotion. Remember how cool those jeans with gunshots through them were. Rebellion has been marketing to teenagers for decades.
Jul 26 '07 #10
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
How does the 'worst browser' become the most popular?
When that browser comes pre-installed on systems used by generally computer illiterate people and, originally, locking out other browsers, that's how you gain market share. These people don't know any better but neither do they care.
Maybe if we cared less about compliance and more about delivering users what they want we would have better applications?
And THAT is the point. If IE performed better then it would be easier to create better applications. As it stands, IE is bad software. That is not a anti-MS rant. At one time I developed using IE only, but once I started learning the problems, I started advocating coding to W3C standards and not to the whims/quirks/bugs that is IE.

Notice, I'm not saying use Firefox or Opera or Safari. I'm saying code to W3C standards and test on the most standards compliant browsers so you can make sure your markup is correct! Because if you use IE as your test browser, your markup stands a better than average chance of not working with standards compliant browsers.

Maybe if we cared less about compliance
If you don't believe in following the W3C standard, what would you follow? Microsoft says to follow the W3C standard but you do not? What other standard is there?

Out of all the similar browsers on the market, all versions of IE fail the most at following web standards. IE holds back the web by being incapable of presenting current features, such as CSS2.1, Xhtml, SVG, proper DOM usage, etc. There are hundreds of web sites dedicated to fixing IE problems but none for ANY other browser. On the html/css board, I spend way too much of my time fixing IE errors. In my own business, I get frustrated by IEs inability to perform the most rudimentary display elements. IE7 just now got alpha transparency on .png while the other browsers have had it for years!

If ANY other software performed like IE, no one would buy it much less use it. How bad can it be if its developer, Microsoft, acknowledges it? Calling my rant an anti-MS statement means you don't understand the problem.

This is old but "Does Microsoft care about web standards?"

btw, my name is not Howard. People call me Doc.
Jul 26 '07 #11
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
I am just happy that for once it's not me fighting with with the anti-ms group.

I'm going to celebrate by drinking...ahhh soda, PG and all that.
Jul 26 '07 #12
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Calling my rant an anti-MS statement means you don't understand the problem.
. .
Jul 26 '07 #13
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
I understand this is a very emotive issue for you and appreciate your strong POV. There is a support group in my city where they have a giant picture of Bill Gates, whom they refer to as the devil. Its OK to admit anti-MS if you are.
These people don't know any better but neither do they care.
I don't understand why you think the average user is stupid. These people pay my bills and I respect them to have enough sense to know what they want.
And THAT is the point. If IE performed better then it would be easier to create better applications.
I am sorry that you have missed my point. Standards & compliance are fine but they do not alone create better applications. My point is about customer service focusing on their needs. Once we understand that we will understand what standards we need.
Calling my rant an anti-MS statement means you don't understand the problem.
I wouldn't call it a rant, but there is the implication that anyone who disagrees with you, and actually likes Microsoft products, mustn't understand (or be stupid). This is an exclusive view. I understand the points that you have made and respect your POV.
Jul 26 '07 #14
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
Now if only Microsoft was as easily amused as I am...

I love sending a website I make to validator.w3.org and getting the green banner. It is like watching a program run without bugs, a thing of beauty.

Oh... for the simple things in life...
Jul 26 '07 #15
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Its OK to admit anti-MS if you are.
Why do you not say I am anti-Opera or anti-Apple since I also did not advocate using their browsers over Firefox? Whether I am anti-MS or not (I'm not. I'm anti-bad software) has nothing to do with the issue that IE is verifiably the worst browser on the planet.
I don't understand why you think the average user is stupid. These people pay my bills and I respect them to have enough sense to know what they want.
I didn't say they were stupid. I said Mom, Dad and the kids don't care or know the technical differences between coding for browsers. If given the components to put something together, why would you look elsewhere? This is the subject of the Justice Department and EU lawsuit against Microsoft.
My point is about customer service focusing on their needs. Once we understand that we will understand what standards we need.
But I'm not talking about the customer, I'm talking of the developer and the browser. The web standard is the W3C and IE does not follow it.
there is the implication that anyone who disagrees with you, and actually likes Microsoft products, mustn't understand (or be stupid).
There you go again, bringing Microsoft and their product package into this when I am focused on their browser only. I have not commented on anything but the browser but you insist on going off topic.
This is an exclusive view.
Exclusive? Did you read what Microsoft themselves said about their own browser as I linked to above? A new book just came out called "Transcending CSS" written and edited by the most well known site designers in the world. One now even works for Microsoft (Molly H. for those who know) where they bemoan IEs lack of functionality. And, to repeat, there are hundreds of web sites dedicated to fixing IE but none for ANY other browser. How is my opinion, therefore, unique?
Dean Edwards
Jul 26 '07 #16
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
Ok I get it - you are not anti-MS, anti-Opera or anti-Apple (although it would be perfectly ok if you were). What really irks you is that Firefox is a free download and less than 20% of people choose to download and use it. If IE was the worst browser I believe the end user would not use it. However, you assume that people are not smart enough to know what their options are and make informed choices.

Lets have a vote - all the people that you know hate IE and all the developers I know like to work with IE. Nobody is forcing you to use IE - or are they? All of my customers are more interested that my applications work in IE than Firefox (although they would be happy if it worked in both).

I say that some people are more worried about compliance than the reality. Even if you hate IE the browser has market dominance. I understand that it could be more compliant, but I don't rate that as highly important and neither do end users. They don't care what I can't do they focus on the real world. You see when you are customer focused you focus on their needs.
But I'm not talking about the customer, I'm talking of the developer and the browser.
That's my point we shouldn't be discussing standards in isolation from the customer. Otherwise developers assume they know best and are soon out of touch with reality.
I have not commented on anything but the browser but you insist on going off topic.
Come on, be honest, this wouldn't be such an emotive issue if you stuck to the topic. There have been numerous attempts by you to label the average computer user ignorant at best. I trust that the average user knows what they want and we should use that as a guide.
There are hundreds of web sites dedicated to fixing IE but none for ANY other browser. How is my opinion, therefore, unique?
I agree with you MS and IE bashing are fashionable with a certain set. Your opinion is of an exclusive few despite you believing you have provided evidence to the contrary. End users still happily use IE. Ignorance is bliss you might say, I would say that you believe you know better.

btw - was your nickname the love doctor at college? Nice!
Jul 27 '07 #17
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
If IE was the worst browser I believe the end user would not use it.
You still don't get it. TECHNICALLY, as in from the coding side that the average person would never even be aware of, IE is a bumbling fool.
However, you assume that people are not smart enough to know what their options are and make informed choices.
The only one making assumptions here is you. I never said that. I am saying that the average user won't look for other options unless prodded to because they are not aware of the problem in most cases.
All of my customers are more interested that my applications work in IE than Firefox (although they would be happy if it worked in both).
You still don't get it. Not once have I said to make your web site work in Firefox but not IE. Where are you gathering that idea? Please point this out because, not once, have I implied or directly stated do not make your page work in IE. Please, please, please show me where I stated that or even implied it and I will buy you a brand new system loaded with any Microsoft product you want.
I understand that it could be more compliant, but I don't rate that as highly important
Then, pray tell WHAT do you follow if you do not follow the W3C? As I said, Microsoft themselves belong to the W3C and even exclaim "Follow the W3C standard!" yet you say it isn't important? ALL my web pages validate 100% but you can't make that happen? Why? All the top designers in the world do it but you can't? Why?
They don't care what I can't do they focus on the real world.
Again, you don't get it. You are talking about the end user and I am talking of the developer. To repeat to you for the umpteenth time, I am talking about IEs admitted inability to follow standards from 1998 and not the end user experience. How many times am I going to have to repeat myself?
That's my point we shouldn't be discussing standards in isolation from the customer. Otherwise developers assume they know best and are soon out of touch with reality.
So you are saying IEs inability to follow the standards somehow affects a customers daily usage? Actually, that's true to a point. Many web features are unavailable because IE can't do them while ALL other browsers can. But, again, that limits the developer directly and not the customer. But you still think this subject is about the customer and it is not. I don't know what I can say to you to get your mind off that. Why do you insist on thinking the customer cares or knows anything about standards?
There have been numerous attempts by you to label the average computer user ignorant at best.
Again, show me. Prove it. You can't.
Ignorance is bliss
I have not had a conversation with anyone like this in two years. I thought developers who thought like you had finally learned. Now that I think of it, I do recall, on another forum, some guy who was new to web development and pretty much thought you only coded to IE and everyone else would fall in line. Of course, it was the exact opposite. His page had hundreds of errors but "it worked in IE!"

It's obvious you have no clue how web standards work, where to look them up, and if it's not on msdn, you don't know about it. In the meantime, the title of this thread will continue to populate this board until others "get it" and quit using IE as their primary test browser as more and more are learning to do.

Five years from now, you won't be doing anything with the web, guaranteed.
Jul 27 '07 #18
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
First off, I think you two need to cool it

Second off, agree to disagree

Third off, what works for person A does not have to work for person B (see second point)

Fourth and final point, Everything is relative. If my world revolves around IE, I should code to IE. If my world revolves around FF, etc... It may not be right, but its realistic.

Personal point: Learn the standards, even if you dont use them for whatever reason
Jul 27 '07 #19
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
Hey hey, I can see why they call you the love doctor - your passion runs hot!

Unfortunately you still don't get my point about the need to have standards follow peoples needs. Your assumption that the average person is a bumbling fool technically is insulting to end users. Anyone can look up the W3C site if they are interested. You have made assumptions throughout.
ALL my web pages validate 100% but you can't make that happen?
One among many. I am an experienced developer - are you so sure that I can't? As developers we should care more about the end users, we should not think ourselves superior.
I have not had a conversation with anyone like this in two years.
But you obviously have arguments on a daily basis, a symptom of the fact that you believe that you are always right. Learn to relax, take a yoga class.
It's obvious you have no clue how web standards work, where to look them up, and if it's not on msdn, you don't know about it.
More assumptions... Success is a team sport and by any standards MS are a great team. My assumption is that you are not a team player. Hating IE is symptomatic of a larger problem. Doctors and programmers are both better at their job if they have the human touch. I suggest you stop hiding behind that is supposedly solely a technical issue. When the technical side aligns with the human side then we will have real progress.
Five years from now, you won't be doing anything with the web, guaranteed.
I'll probably get dragged into management, as some programmers do, but I'd like to keep my hand in because I enjoy it. I'll try to instill a sense of customer focus in my team and the success that follows.
Jul 27 '07 #20
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
First off, I think you two need to cool it

Second off, agree to disagree

Third off, what works for person A does not have to work for person B (see second point)

Fourth and final point, Everything is relative. If my world revolves around IE, I should code to IE. If my world revolves around FF, etc... It may not be right, but its realistic.

Personal point: Learn the standards, even if you dont use them for whatever reason
Thanks for your feedback. I believe we are having a difference of opinion between equals. I have agreed that it is ok for Howard to hate IE, but I think that there is the opportunity for Howard &/or I to learn something. Agree with points 2 & 3 but disagree with 4, I think that developers should be aware of both browsers and their standards. I do know the standards, but I appreciate your point.
Jul 27 '07 #21
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
Thanks for your feedback. I believe we are having a difference of opinion between equals. I have agreed that it is ok for Howard to hate IE, but I think that there is the opportunity for Howard &/or I to learn something. Agree with points 2 & 3 but disagree with 4, I think that developers should be aware of both browsers and their standards. I do know the standards, but I appreciate your point.
My #1 point was basically because if you read the last 10 or so posts by either of you, it sounds like you guys are in a PM war, whereas in reality you two have taken a thread on a tangent. A valid tangent when you two hit actual points, but a tangent nonetheless
Jul 27 '07 #22
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
If my world revolves around IE, I should code to IE. If my world revolves around FF, etc... It may not be right, but its realistic.
My point is your world should not revolve around either.

I'm done with this because of his failure to understand what is being posted.

You mustn't be from the USA, otherwise you would know my handle has nothing to do with any "Love Doctor".
Jul 27 '07 #23
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
My point is your world should not revolve around either.
True, but relatively speaking... but I digress. Standards make my life easier so I suggest using them!
Jul 27 '07 #24
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
That is what I said.
Jul 27 '07 #25
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
That is what I said.
I know, but works for you and me does not need to work for everyone. He can code for console based browsers based off Alien Standards 1.3a and if his customers love it, all the more power to him. Thats why I dont think the arguement of standards and their usage should come between you two, nor is it one that either of you can 'win' in the technical sense. I chalk it up to the internet and its users being one huge confuddled mess.
Jul 27 '07 #26
kenobewan
4,871 Expert 4TB
He can code for console based browsers based off Alien Standards 1.3a and if his customers love it, all the more power to him.
See it wasn't difficult concept to grasp. My choice is to go one step further and say that customers should drive standards even if they end up as Alien Standards 1.3a. It was interesting how Howard stuck to the concept that I could not understand his POV, that I wasn't long for the web world and that I mustn't be American. If Howard wants to let the discussion drop there I'm happy to do that. Otherwise feel free to PM me. Thanks.
Jul 28 '07 #27

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