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eBay dumps microsoft for java to achieve 1 BILLION page views a day

P: n/a
asj
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."

for similar J2ME stats, go to:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm
Jul 19 '05 #1
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37 Replies


P: n/a
asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."


Of course, your implied conclusion is that these companies wouldn't be able
to handle the same traffic if they were using some other technology. Of
course, there is no evidence to back that conclusion, since these companies
are not using some other technology.

The only conclusion you can draw from the case studies cited is that they
are achieving the performance they are achieving with the technology they
are using. No more. No less.

Lots of similar information can be found <url:
http://www.microsoft.com/net/casestudies/ />, but again, all those case
studies show is the performance gained and costs reduced using the
technology choosen, it says nothing about what the numbers would look like
if the companies involved had used some other technology.

"Monster runs primarily on ASP code and uses Alta Vista as the primary
search engine for both job seekers and recruiters. Typically the site
handles from 2 to 3 million unique users a day and serves between 40 and 45
million page views per day, averaging about 200 megabits of traffic per
second in prime time—between 11 A.M. to about 4 P.M. Eastern time. However,
Monster has tracked a peak of about 10,000 Web flows—Web pages processed—per
second."

The above is completely meaningless (are are any Java case study performance
numbers), since they might be able to serve the same number of pages
processed using PHP, ColdFusion, or Java, we simply do not know, because
they do not use the other technologies.

As for the lack of hype, it may have quieted, but it appears there are lots
of companies implementing the technology. And ultimately, it's not the noise
a technology makes in trade magazines, it's who uses it, and for what. It
seems as if companies have evaluated the choices and are getting on with the
business of implementing the best technology for their environment.

--
| Grant Wagner <gw*****@agricoreunited.com>

Jul 19 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:58:39 +0000, Grant Wagner wrote:
asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why
their java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the
funny thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing
what worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big
case studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me:
eBay architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."
Of course, your implied conclusion is that these companies wouldn't be
able to handle the same traffic if they were using some other
technology. Of course, there is no evidence to back that conclusion,
since these companies are not using some other technology.

The only conclusion you can draw from the case studies cited is that
they are achieving the performance they are achieving with the
technology they are using. No more. No less.

Lots of similar information can be found <url:
http://www.microsoft.com/net/casestudies/ />, but again, all those case
studies show is the performance gained and costs reduced using the
technology choosen, it says nothing about what the numbers would look
like if the companies involved had used some other technology.

"Monster runs primarily on ASP code and uses Alta Vista as the primary
search engine for both job seekers and recruiters. Typically the site
handles from 2 to 3 million unique users a day and serves between 40 and
45 million page views per day, averaging about 200 megabits of traffic
per second in prime time—between 11 A.M. to about 4 P.M. Eastern time.
However, Monster has tracked a peak of about 10,000 Web flows—Web pages
processed—per second."

The above is completely meaningless (are are any Java case study
performance numbers), since they might be able to serve the same number
of pages processed using PHP, ColdFusion, or Java, we simply do not
know, because they do not use the other technologies.

As for the lack of hype, it may have quieted, but it appears there are
lots of companies implementing the technology. And ultimately, it's not
the noise a technology makes in trade magazines, it's who uses it, and
for what. It seems as if companies have evaluated the choices and are
getting on with the business of implementing the best technology for
their environment.


you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you
can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...

Gosh that must have been an expensive thing for them to have done... all
that effort to go the 1 Redmond Way... so much for your much vaunted .NET
technology... tossed out onto the verge of the Information Superhighway
like yesterday's rubbish...

Had to reboot your ms-windows computer yet today???

<http://makeashorterlink.com/?X27F52465>Mr. Gates acknowledged today that the company's error reporting service
indicated that 5 percent of all Windows-based computers now crash more
than twice each day.

Jul 19 '05 #3

P: n/a
asj
Grant Wagner wrote:

paul cooke wrote:
you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you
can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...

Gosh that must have been an expensive thing for them to have done... all
that effort to go the 1 Redmond Way... so much for your much vaunted .NET
technology... tossed out onto the verge of the Information Superhighway
like yesterday's rubbish...


First of all, I'm not sure they ever used .NET, I believe the switch was made
prior the implementation of any .NET solutions. Even if they had a fully
functioning .NET site and swapped it out for a Java solution, I'd be
interested to see sources that indicate it was done because .NET could not
handle the load.


eBay had been implementing a lot of the parts of .net, including
passport when this happened. they also had been heavily into windows,
which is why ballmer had been so angry when this happened. then i
believe IBM's websphere beat out both microsoft and sun after a series
of tests eBay did.

it sure screwed microsoft though, since eBay was trumpeted very VERY
loudly as the biggest backer of microsoft's .net...

there are of course, other notable examples of companies switching to
j2ee AFTER using .NET extensively, one recent example i pointed out was
Cerner:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/...cerner2_1.html
Jul 19 '05 #4

P: n/a
asj,

Case studies are for learning, not for making comparisons.

Inorder to properly compare you need to have two (or more) implementations,
where the entities to be compared are known and measurable. This works well
for tangible artifacts, for example you measure the max speed of car A and
car B. If you make your measurement properly and such a way that somebody
else can repeat them, you could state that car B is faster/ slower than car
A.

However software systems and any system including intangible atrifacts do
have different nature. For example a reasonable complicated software product
is developed by groups A and B. A is developed with Java and EJB and B is
developed with .NET and C#. So you like to compare whether A or B is better.
You run them in similar machines and the output is similar and you find that
product A runs 10% faster than product B. Can you draw the conclusion that
EJB and Java is better than .NET and #C? Or could it be that the group B had
better developers than group A?

Inorder to find out whether it depends on tools or developers you need to
make several experiments. AFAIK nobody has ever made any such experiments.

Ofcourse you are entitled to your opinions, but that's what they are, just
your opinions (or somebody elses)!
Ron
"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xx.com...
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."

for similar J2ME stats, go to:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

Jul 19 '05 #5

P: n/a
asj
thanks, but did i claim otherwise?
i just noted how it was funny that eBay was the premier case study for
trumpeting .net awhile back, and now is a case study for java's J2EE.
Ron Bullman wrote:

asj,

Case studies are for learning, not for making comparisons.

Inorder to properly compare you need to have two (or more) implementations,
where the entities to be compared are known and measurable. This works well
for tangible artifacts, for example you measure the max speed of car A and
car B. If you make your measurement properly and such a way that somebody
else can repeat them, you could state that car B is faster/ slower than car
A.

However software systems and any system including intangible atrifacts do
have different nature. For example a reasonable complicated software product
is developed by groups A and B. A is developed with Java and EJB and B is
developed with .NET and C#. So you like to compare whether A or B is better.
You run them in similar machines and the output is similar and you find that
product A runs 10% faster than product B. Can you draw the conclusion that
EJB and Java is better than .NET and #C? Or could it be that the group B had
better developers than group A?

Inorder to find out whether it depends on tools or developers you need to
make several experiments. AFAIK nobody has ever made any such experiments.

Ofcourse you are entitled to your opinions, but that's what they are, just
your opinions (or somebody elses)!

Ron
"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xx.com...
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."

for similar J2ME stats, go to:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

Jul 19 '05 #6

P: n/a
asj
yeah, my poor choice of words in the front paragraph (although eBay did
implement passport) ....

however, eBay still DUMPED .net in favor of J2EE, and this made ballmer
even crazier since eBay was already heavily into windows on the front
end and was implementing .NET's Passport (aka, "give your ultimate
password to us and we'll take good care of it - Windows
Security"...bwahahahaha) at the time....in addition, it made microsoft
eat its own words since eBay was HEAVILY trumpeted as the premier win
for .NET....

1 BILLION page-views...wow.

i wonder how google (which runs on Linux clusters) compares to
this...must be even more....
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.
Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.

You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.

Jul 19 '05 #7

P: n/a

"asj" <k@xx.com> skrev i meddelandet news:3F***********@xx.com...

there are of course, other notable examples of companies switching to j2ee AFTER using .NET extensively, one recent example i pointed out was Cerner:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/...cerner2_1.html

But this is not about Java at all, IBM is selling WebSphere and DB2 as
*its* solution. If you choose that, you then *have* to use Java,
because that is IBM's only alternative.

Where I work we are also rewriting C++ code to Java, because we can
then run WebSphere and DB on the mainframe. It is not a question of
whether Java is better, it's a question of what is available for the
platform - DB2 and WebSphere.
Bo Persson
bo**@telia.com

Jul 19 '05 #8

P: n/a
asj
welcome to the world of multiple vendors and CHOICE!
each vendor sells its own solution set, but the intersecting point is,
guess what? java.

websphere IS a J2EE app server, which means everytime IBM sells another
websphere solution, that's more jobs for java developers and better
penetration of java.

a quote from that:
"Cerner now plans to standardize a new set of applications on not just
WebSphere, but also on J2EE Web services. The company will also use
IBM's WebSphere Studio Application Developer as its development
environment. This makes it easier for a wide range of programmers to
develop in Java. IBM plans to create closer working ties between
Cerner's development organizations and its own WebSphere Studio product
management team."

and why abandon .NET? because they wanted a cross-platform, secure,
reliable, and open technology.....

"Cerner did a lot of deep analysis on how to make their developers more
productive and they found WebSphere Studio to be more productive in
which to build applications. They told us they also needed a more open,
cross-platform architecture, and they felt .Net would not support the
heterogeneous needs of their customers," said Scott Hebner, IBM's vice
president in charge of marketing for WebSphere in Somers, N.Y.

"Hebner added that Cerner preferred WebSphere's ability to cross
integrate and unify patient care information, as well as the Web
application servers' ability to scale."

"They did not feel the thick client in .Net architecture could scale
with the level of security and reliability that WebSphere could
produce,'' Hebner said.


Bo Persson wrote:
But this is not about Java at all, IBM is selling WebSphere and DB2 as
*its* solution. If you choose that, you then *have* to use Java,
because that is IBM's only alternative.

Where I work we are also rewriting C++ code to Java, because we can
then run WebSphere and DB on the mainframe. It is not a question of
whether Java is better, it's a question of what is available for the
platform - DB2 and WebSphere.

Bo Persson
bo**@telia.com

Jul 19 '05 #9

P: n/a

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote
Bo Persson wrote:
But this is not about Java at all, IBM is selling WebSphere and DB2 as *its* solution. If you choose that, you then *have* to use Java,
because that is IBM's only alternative.

Where I work we are also rewriting C++ code to Java, because we can then run WebSphere and DB on the mainframe. It is not a question of whether Java is better, it's a question of what is available for the platform - DB2 and WebSphere.
welcome to the world of multiple vendors and CHOICE!
each vendor sells its own solution set, but the intersecting point is, guess what? java.
Or IBM!

websphere IS a J2EE app server, which means everytime IBM sells another websphere solution, that's more jobs for java developers and better
penetration of java.
Agree.
a quote from that:
"Cerner now plans to standardize a new set of applications on not just WebSphere, but also on J2EE Web services. The company will also use
IBM's WebSphere Studio Application Developer as its development
environment. This makes it easier for a wide range of programmers to
develop in Java. IBM plans to create closer working ties between
Cerner's development organizations and its own WebSphere Studio product management team."
Directly from IBM's data sheet?
and why abandon .NET? because they wanted a cross-platform, secure,
reliable, and open technology.....
Or, because they wanted IBM WebSphere and DB2?

"Cerner did a lot of deep analysis on how to make their developers more productive and they found WebSphere Studio to be more productive in
which to build applications. They told us they also needed a more open, cross-platform architecture, and they felt .Net would not support the heterogeneous needs of their customers," said Scott Hebner, IBM's vice president in charge of marketing for WebSphere in Somers, N.Y.
We also did a deep analysis of the platforms used, and found that
running DB2 on the mainframe (which we do anyway, since decades) and
the web on a PC server farm didn't make sense. When we now use IBM
WebSpere, we can scrap the server racks and the overloaded backbone
net and run it all on a single platform.

We are not the least interested in cross-platform applications, we run
DB2 on mainframes. Everything else has to adapt to that, *even* if it
means rewriting the web apps in Java. We didn't choose Java, we were
forced to use it.


"Hebner added that Cerner preferred WebSphere's ability to cross
integrate and unify patient care information, as well as the Web
application servers' ability to scale."
Yes, so they can also move to an IBM eBusiness Server zSeries,
formerly known as S/390 mainframe. Great scaling - even with Java.

"They did not feel the thick client in .Net architecture could scale
with the level of security and reliability that WebSphere could
produce,'' Hebner said.
Ok, so I wouldn't give that much for MS security either.


Still, I insist that this doesn't tell anything about Java vs .NET,
but about the difference between using SQL Server on PC class servers
and using DB2 on big iron from IBM. Java is not the reason for a
change, but an effect of it.
Bo Persson
bo**@telia.com

Jul 19 '05 #10

P: n/a
The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:38:01 -0400, asj <k@xx.com> wrote:
yeah, my poor choice of words in the front paragraph (although eBay did
implement passport) ....

however, eBay still DUMPED .net in favor of J2EE, and this made ballmer
even crazier since eBay was already heavily into windows on the front
end and was implementing .NET's Passport (aka, "give your ultimate
password to us and we'll take good care of it - Windows
Security"...bwahahahaha) at the time....in addition, it made microsoft
eat its own words since eBay was HEAVILY trumpeted as the premier win
for .NET....

1 BILLION page-views...wow.

i wonder how google (which runs on Linux clusters) compares to
this...must be even more....
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj wrote:
> awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
> architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
> java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
> thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
> beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.
Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.

You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.


<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Jul 19 '05 #11

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj <k@xx.com> wrote or quoted :
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


the ebay people know what they are doing. The UI is easy enough that
my sister in law is using it. I found it seemed to anticipate my
questions and needs. Given the hammering it gets, the response time is
remarkably good.

I doubt they would be flipping without doing some serious testing
first.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
Jul 19 '05 #12

P: n/a
asj
James A. Robertson wrote:

The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.


actually, i believe they are still using sun, but that might have
changed...who knows? and who cares?

they're running Java's J2EE (not c#, not smalltalk, not pigaboo), and
that's all i care about cause that's what affects me.
Jul 19 '05 #13

P: n/a
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, I heard Erik Funkenbusch say:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.
Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.


Perhaps it was a development project rather than their production systems that
was switched?
Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.
Ah, yes. Quite like Microsoft trying several times and failing to change
hotmail over to Windows. Which you like to insist never happened, since they
never *really* tried, since every time they planned to do so they realized
before spending those millions that it would fail because Windows simply isn't
good enough.
You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.


They switched their plans. The question is why; the answer is because .NET is
just more monopoly crapware.

--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Jul 19 '05 #14

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj <k@xx.com> wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day!


Everybody thinks this is about technology first.

I actually bet it isn't.

Something as major as Ebay would inevitably involve a number of
nearly 'on-site' programmers from Microsoft or Sun and similar
consultants. They would become intimately familiar with the workings,
technology, and inevitably key trade secrets of the business.

Microsoft has a history of learning everything it can about
competitors' business even through development contacts, and
then later springing upon them a MSFT competitor developed
entirely in secret.

Only Microsoft, with its large capital and persistence and
distribution network via the desktop monopoly, could conceivably
challenge eBay.

eBay is the only really massively profitable revenue model in
computing today which isn't owned by Microsoft. I'm sure Gates &
Ballmer have thought heavily about how to get some of this money.

The strategic risk to eBay for getting involved with Microsoft is too
large. It's like contracting out U.S. JDAM manufacturing
to Chung King Metalworks of Beijing.
Google is probably a modestly profitable company but with insanely
good almost unique technology. They should never let a Microsoft
employee in the building.

Jul 19 '05 #15

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:47:22 -0400, James A. Robertson wrote:
The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.


If they're not now, they certainly used to. It was quite public a few years
ago when Ebay was experiencing lots of downtime due to system crashes. Sun
blamed Ebay, and Ebay blamed Sun, and the crashes continued. The failures
were noted in at least two articles in Business Week.

-- Mike --
Jul 19 '05 #16

P: n/a
asj wrote:
James A. Robertson wrote:
The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.

actually, i believe they are still using sun, but that might have
changed...who knows? and who cares?

they're running Java's J2EE (not c#, not smalltalk, not pigaboo), and
that's all i care about cause that's what affects me.


Netcraft says there running Windows NT 4 and IIS/4. Looking at some of
the search strings in queries, it looks like they are calling into ISAPI
extensions. Yet the home page says they are powered by IBM... Very
confusing.

Tom Shelton

Jul 19 '05 #17

P: n/a

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xx.com...
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


Um, they were never on .Net.

URL to case study, please?
Jul 19 '05 #18

P: n/a

"paul cooke" <paul_cooke@linux_NO_SPAM_mail.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.07.28.18.45.15.124174@linux_NO_SPAM_ mail.org...
<snip>>
you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you
can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...


They never used .Net. Don't fall for the asj spin.
Jul 19 '05 #19

P: n/a

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xx.com...
Grant Wagner wrote:

paul cooke wrote:
you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...

Gosh that must have been an expensive thing for them to have done... all that effort to go the 1 Redmond Way... so much for your much vaunted ..NET technology... tossed out onto the verge of the Information Superhighway like yesterday's rubbish...


First of all, I'm not sure they ever used .NET, I believe the switch was made prior the implementation of any .NET solutions. Even if they had a fully
functioning .NET site and swapped it out for a Java solution, I'd be
interested to see sources that indicate it was done because .NET could not handle the load.


eBay had been implementing a lot of the parts of .net, including
passport when this happened. they also had been heavily into windows,
which is why ballmer had been so angry when this happened. then i
believe IBM's websphere beat out both microsoft and sun after a series
of tests eBay did.


URL to details of these implementations.......?
Jul 19 '05 #20

P: n/a
"John" <so*****@msnnotamucho.com> writes:
They never used .Net. Don't fall for the asj spin.


In the CHOICE between going for .Net and going for J2EE they chose the
latter - this can be seen as "ditching" .Net.
Jul 19 '05 #21

P: n/a

"Tor Iver Wilhelmsen" <to*****************@broadpark.no> wrote in message
news:ud***********@broadpark.no...
"John" <so*****@msnnotamucho.com> writes:
They never used .Net. Don't fall for the asj spin.


In the CHOICE between going for .Net and going for J2EE they chose the
latter - this can be seen as "ditching" .Net.


You can't ditch something you didn't have in the first place.

"eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows architecture on the
backend to a J2EE one" - asj

Jul 19 '05 #22

P: n/a

"Tor Iver Wilhelmsen" <to*****************@broadpark.no> wrote in message
news:ud***********@broadpark.no...
"John" <so*****@msnnotamucho.com> writes:
They never used .Net. Don't fall for the asj spin.


In the CHOICE between going for .Net and going for J2EE they chose the
latter - this can be seen as "ditching" .Net.


Read his statement again.....

"eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows architecture on the
backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their java backend will
handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny thing was eBay was one of
the major case studies for .NET at the beginning, when there was still some
hype about it."


Jul 19 '05 #23

P: n/a
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, I heard Erik Funkenbusch say:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.


Perhaps it was a development project rather than their production systems that
was switched?


Neither: <url: http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp />

"Microsoft, Sun Microsystems and IBM all would compete, in a series of tests, to
supply eBay with new software to run its auctions..."
Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.


Ah, yes. Quite like Microsoft trying several times and failing to change
hotmail over to Windows. Which you like to insist never happened, since they
never *really* tried, since every time they planned to do so they realized
before spending those millions that it would fail because Windows simply isn't
good enough.


Then why does eBay still use Microsoft-IIS/4.0 as the front-end on their 3-tier
architecture if it's "simply not good enough":

HTTP/1.0 200 OK
Age: 44
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:09:03 GMT
Content-Length: 50269
Content-Type: text/html
Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0
Content-Location: http://10.8.35.99/index.html
Last-Modified: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:02:00 GMT
ETag: "0a4895ce255c31:12f40"
Via: 1.1 cache15 (NetCache NetApp/5.2.1R3)

But I guess Sun is much more reliable:

"But, outside executives say, the choice is a clear outgrowth of eBay's ongoing
battle to heighten control of its infrastructure, a battle that began in earnest
in June of 1999 when a Sun server at eBay failed and the site went down for 22
hours."

Oops, a 22 hour outage using good ol' reliable Sun hardware. Wonder how many
millions that cost eBay.
You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.


They switched their plans. The question is why; the answer is because .NET is
just more monopoly crapware.


No.

"But Whitman and eBay, which netted $48.3 million on revenue of $431.4 million
last year, were looking at every company that made application server software
which might be mature enough to replace the software that eBay had."

Note "...every company...".

"To make its choice, eBay devised its own tests, according to participants in the
competition. Contestants were given sample code from eBay's current auction
software and told to develop an application that processed a representative mix of
eBay's top four transactions on its auction site—View Item, List Item, Bid, and
Seller List."

"EBay then rated the applications based on a number of pass/fail tests:
performance compared to eBay's current software, performance gained on a server
with additional processors and memory, performance gained on multiple servers, and
the ability to recover in the midst of a transaction."

"EBay has declined repeatedly to discuss the details behind its choice of IBM, or
the competition in which participants say they engaged."

So, you can make all the outrageous claims you want about why eBay made the
decision they made, but it's all speculation, because eBay isn't saying why, and
they're the only ones who actually /know/.

--
| Grant Wagner <gw*****@agricoreunited.com>

Jul 19 '05 #24

P: n/a
asj
John wrote:
"eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows architecture on the
backend to a J2EE one" - asj

perhaps your deadened brain doesn't know that "switch" can refer to a
"change in plans"?

microsoft had formed a big strategic alliance with eBay at the time, and
eBay implemented (or were implementing) already parts of .NET (inc
Passport), when eBay abruptly switched to IBM's Websphere.

the alliance was VERY big for both microsoft and its developers (read
about how ballmer was so "excited" about it, or how developers felt the
win validated .NET)

unfortunately for ballmy, eBay relented later when they decided .NET
just would not do it....

to quote: "eBay's evaluation of Microsoft's .NET initiative concluded
that, at the time, it was not ready to meet its needs.....But, as we dug
into the different issues, we reached the realization that we needed a
more OPEN ARCHITECTURE accompanied with overarching process changes.
This paradigm was integral to our decision to go with Java technology."
"eBay and Microsoft Announce Strategic Alliance to Expand Global Online
Presence"
http://www.microsoft.com/MSCorp/pres...3-12ebaypr.asp

"eBay to adopt Microsoft .Net"
http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/1513/ITW_3-13-01_msebay/

"More light shed on Microsoft, eBay deal"
http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/featu...ies/16913.html

"Microsoft, eBay Seal E-Commerce Alliance"
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/8093.html

"eBay Links Up With Microsoft"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/...in278355.shtml

"eBay, Microsoft cozy up for new alliance"
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2001/03/13/ebay/


-----------------------------------------

According to Geiger, the application platform decision was based on the
needs to "increase productivity by creating a component-based
architecture, which would do away with the monolithic code base." eBay's
evaluation centered on the platform's ability to meet the high
quality-of-service requirements (flexibility, adaptability,
manageability, scalability, and security) and the need for the
architecture to be comprised of frameworks focused on reuse. The two
candidates were Microsoft's .NET initiative and industry-standard J2EE
technology, with the latter initially considered as a long shot. Geiger
recalls, "This was not in the initial vision of V3: If you were to ask
me back in December [2000] if we would go to Java [technology], I would
have said 'No.'"

eBay's evaluation of Microsoft's .NET initiative concluded that, at the
time, it was not ready to meet its needs. As Geiger puts it, "We were
not going to adopt a brand new technology." This was somewhat surprising
since eBay's existing "architectural foundation was firmly rooted in C++
[technology]. But, as we dug into the different issues, we reached the
realization that we needed a more open architecture accompanied with
overarching process changes. This paradigm was integral to our decision
to go with Java technology."

------------------------------------------

-
Jul 19 '05 #25

P: n/a
asj
Grant Wagner wrote:
So, you can make all the outrageous claims you want about why eBay made the
decision they made, but it's all speculation, because eBay isn't saying why, and
they're the only ones who actually /know/.

i think they did say something:

to quote: "eBay's evaluation of Microsoft's .NET initiative concluded
that, at the time, it was not ready to meet its needs.....But, as we dug
into the different issues, we reached the realization that we needed a
more OPEN ARCHITECTURE accompanied with overarching process changes.
This paradigm was integral to our decision to go with Java technology."

so, after all the press and hoopla surrounding the adoption of .net by
eBay, it turns out J2EE met their needs much better.

why wouldn't it?

it's MORE OPEN, it's SUPPORTED BY MANY VENDORS AND OPEN SOURCE
ORGANIZATIONS, it's NOT GOING TO BE CHURNED IN 4-5 YEARS, and it's
MULTI-PLATFORM - as in, you can use linux, solaris, mac, windows, or
whatever and not just security-challenged microsoft windows for it.
Jul 19 '05 #26

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:40:47 -0400 asj wrote the following in an attempt
to be both witty and informative:
<snip>
eBay had been implementing a lot of the parts of .net, including passport
when this happened. they also had been heavily into windows, which is why
ballmer had been so angry when this happened. then i believe IBM's
websphere beat out both microsoft and sun after a series of tests eBay
did.
As a passport user (I've had a hotmail account since before MS's take
over) and as an eBay user that eBay has used .NET in the form of at least
of the PassPort service.

it sure screwed microsoft though, since eBay was trumpeted very VERY
loudly as the biggest backer of microsoft's .net...
I wonder how much grease Ballmer needed. ;)

there are of course, other notable examples of companies switching to j2ee
AFTER using .NET extensively, one recent example i pointed out was Cerner:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/...cerner2_1.html


I use Linux :p

Removing the Java group and setting followup for here.

--
Joseph A Nagy Jr
http://joseph-a-nagy-jr.homelinux.org
http://mc-luug.homelinux.org

Jul 19 '05 #27

P: n/a
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:22:04 -0500 Erik Funkenbusch wrote the following in
an attempt to be both witty and informative:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400, asj wrote:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.


Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.
Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.

You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.


You and that article are completely wrong as I have used PassPort ON eBay
(and PassPort is part of .NET).

--
Joseph A Nagy Jr
http://joseph-a-nagy-jr.homelinux.org
http://mc-luug.homelinux.org

Jul 19 '05 #28

P: n/a

"Grant Wagner" <gw*****@agricoreunited.com> wrote in message
news:3F***************@agricoreunited.com...
Tom Shelton wrote:
asj wrote:
James A. Robertson wrote:

>The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
>revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.
actually, i believe they are still using sun, but that might have
changed...who knows? and who cares?

they're running Java's J2EE (not c#, not smalltalk, not pigaboo), and
that's all i care about cause that's what affects me.
Netcraft says there running Windows NT 4 and IIS/4. Looking at some of
the search strings in queries, it looks like they are calling into ISAPI
extensions. Yet the home page says they are powered by IBM... Very
confusing.

Tom Shelton


It's N-tier architecture:

<url: http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...,659060,00.asp />

"EBay will use J2EE to transfer some of this workload to a third tier of
servers, running software from IBM. With this new setup, one set of

servers at the front will present information to auction participants, a second set in the middle will execute the business logic of the auctions (for example, "don't bid on an item over $100"); and, a third set at the back end will
continue to handle access to Oracle databases."


Ahh, that explains it and makes real sense as well - I should have realized
that's what they were doing... Thanks :)

Tom Shelton
Jul 19 '05 #29

P: n/a
asj wrote:
Grant Wagner wrote:
So, you can make all the outrageous claims you want about why eBay made the
decision they made, but it's all speculation, because eBay isn't saying why, and
they're the only ones who actually /know/.
i think they did say something:

to quote: "eBay's evaluation of Microsoft's .NET initiative concluded
that, at the time, it was not ready to meet its needs.....But, as we dug
into the different issues, we reached the realization that we needed a
more OPEN ARCHITECTURE accompanied with overarching process changes.
This paradigm was integral to our decision to go with Java technology."


Yes, "... at the time, [.Net] was not ready to meet its needs ...". We have no idea
whether it would now. That, however isn't really relevant. In the end, eBay reviewed
it's requirements, tested products, and picked what it felt was the best architecture
for it at the time. That's how companies do it. They don't look at the products and
make a decision based on pre-conceived (and possibly misinformed) notions of "what's
best".

Other companies have performed the same sort of evaluation and choosen products other
then J2EE.
so, after all the press and hoopla surrounding the adoption of .net by
eBay, it turns out J2EE met their needs much better.
If J2EE met their needs better, then that's what they should be using. What does press
and hoopla have to do with the individual platform choices of individual companies?
The fact that J2EE met eBay's needs better means that J2EE met eBay's needs better,
nothing more.
why wouldn't it?
Because companies have different needs and requirements. eBay's requirements led them
to J2EE, other companies' requirements lead them to ColdFusion, PHP or .Net.
it's MORE OPEN, it's SUPPORTED BY MANY VENDORS AND OPEN SOURCE
ORGANIZATIONS, it's NOT GOING TO BE CHURNED IN 4-5 YEARS, and it's
MULTI-PLATFORM - as in, you can use linux, solaris, mac, windows, or
whatever and not just security-challenged microsoft windows for it.


I really don't understand the "multi-platform" argument. eBay now has a /huge/ /huge/
/huge/ investment in hardware, they aren't going to suddenly throw it all away and
start using something else. Once a company has made the initial investment in some
J2EE solution, the fact that they /could/ run it on Linux or Mac becomes irrelevant.

Why does Microsoft Windows get the "security-challenged" moniker, but none of the
other operating systems listed do? While <url: http://www.cert.org/advisories/ />
lists many Microsoft product vulnerabilities, it also lists many non-Microsoft product
vulnerabilities.

Properly secured by competent administrators, Windows presents no more of a security
risk then any other operating system listed. A competent administrator wouldn't allow
telnet traffic directly to a Linux or Solaris server from the Internet, and a
competent administrator wouldn't allow RPC traffic directly to a Windows server from
the Internet. The fact that Ma and Pa Kettle running Windows XP (without the included
firewall being enabled I might add) are vulnerable to an RPC exploit is not analogous
to Windows servers running in a properly secured environment. Similarly, a copy of Red
Hat running sendmail 8.12.7 or earlier is vulnerable, this does not mean that every
company that uses Red Hat on their servers is exploitable.

eBay runs Microsoft-IIS/4.0 as their web server. Windows NT 4.0 has at least one known
vulnerability which has not been fixed by Microsoft, yet, somehow, eBay's servers are
still secure.

--
| Grant Wagner <gw*****@agricoreunited.com>

Jul 19 '05 #30

P: n/a
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<k@xx.com>
wrote
on Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:07:23 -0400
<3F***********@xx.com>:
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."
Odd.

$ telnet www.ebay.com 80
Trying 66.135.208.87...
Connected to pages.ebay.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
HEAD / HTTP/1.0

HTTP/1.0 200 OK
Age: 8
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:28:05 GMT
Content-Length: 49670
Content-Type: text/html
Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0
Content-Location: http://10.8.35.99/index.html
Last-Modified: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:21:14 GMT
ETag: "01160ce555c31:12c69"
Via: 1.1 cache15 (NetCache NetApp/5.2.1R3)

Maybe they missed one. :-) -- Nope, all four of them are
responding with IIS/4. (The four from the DNS lookup I
gave, anyway.)

It's possible this is a "frontend" website though. I'm
not sure what to make of the Content-Location: header.

It gets weirder. There's a "Powered by IBM" logo at the
upper right of the main page.

One of their featured items is a 3,000+ collection of
cartoon glasses as of this writing; clicking on that takes
me to cgi.ebay.com, also powered by Microsoft IIS/4.0.
Either they're in the process of transitioning or someone's
confused. Maybe I'm the confused one....

However, the website is highly responsive for me, if a
bit silly in spots (check out the "What is eBay?" link
for the silliness :-) ).

for similar J2ME stats, go to:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

--
#191, ew****@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Jul 19 '05 #31

P: n/a
asj <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:<3F***********@xx.com>...

however, eBay still DUMPED .net in favor of J2EE, and this made ballmer
even crazier since eBay was already heavily into windows on the front
end and was implementing .NET's Passport (aka, "give your ultimate
password to us and we'll take good care of it - Windows
Security"...bwahahahaha) at the time....in addition, it made microsoft
eat its own words since eBay was HEAVILY trumpeted as the premier win
for .NET....

1 BILLION page-views...wow.


Heh, it is just a bunch of FUD. These are *projected* numbers for 2005.
In fact eBay currently runs on Microsoft platform and doing great.
It is yet to be seen how successful the new eBay architecture will be.
These decisions are often made not by engineers but by senior executives
for the sake of press-releases. You can shout all you want how cool eBay
on J2EE will be. We will believe it when we see it. Get back to us when
it is up and running.
Jul 19 '05 #32

P: n/a
asj
FUD? really? then you must be shakin' in yar boots because the final
migration is almost complete.

eBay runs an in-house PROPRIETARY system on the backend, which is being
replaced by open standard java AS WE SPEAK (if i'm not mistaken by
looking at the paragraphs below, up to 75 percent of the eBay traffic is
now being handled by the new architecture-which translates to over
400-million transactions per day - the complete migration will be
finished in 2004). btw, i did not realize until now that sun is actually
providing the consulting services for this.

here's the status of the current move so far:

"EBAY V3 ROLLOUT STATUS" (dated April 2003)
http://www.sun.com/service/about/suc...nt/ebay_5.html

Phase One-Design Concepts
Starting in December, 2000, Phase One demonstrated the viability of the
proposed architecture design, ranging from the need for individual
services' tiers, to security requirements, to proposed development
frameworks. According to Geiger, "The approach was to select a small
piece of the site's infrastructure for migration to the V3 architecture,
with the ability to quickly revert to the V2 version in case of any
problems. The plan was to learn from design patterns-those that
worked-for development efficiency. The development plan was designed in
mind all of the way down to those managing the operations, with the goal
of sorting through all of the issues at one time, thereby allowing us to
resolve potential issues before other applications were brought into
production."
Phase One release of the J2EE technology-based architecture was
completed in December, 2001.

Phase Two-Proof of Concepts and Initial Deployments
Phase Two, with Phase One complete and the architecture solidified, was
intended, as Geiger explains, "to prove scalability by selecting one of
the most heavily trafficked areas of the site." That section is what
eBay defines as the "View Item" area, which accounts for about 65
percent of all site traffic. Although the functionality itself is fairly
simple, the high traffic and transaction volume of the area was chosen
to demonstrate that the new architecture would scale. Complete migration
of "View Item" to the new architecture was achieved in June, 2002.

With this migration, close to 75 percent of the eBay traffic is now
being handled by the new architecture-which translates to over
400-million transactions per day.

Phase Three-Wide-Scale Migration
The final phase, Phase Three, which was initiated in July, 2002, will be
to migrate eBay's entire infrastructure to the new architecture. Geiger
explains, "Phase Three is effectively bringing the J2EE
[technology-based] architecture to the masses, the general development
population."

In addition to moving its existing infrastructure to the new
architecture, all new business requests will be built on the V3
architecture. "Working with Sun Services' training specialists, we
developed a sequential, targeted training and development program," says
Geiger. That development plan includes certification in Java technology.
"With our development team now adequately trained in Java [technology]
and development best practices in place, we can begin designing and
implementing new business requests within this new architectural
framework." Geiger acknowledges that the completion of this change will
take time. "Now that we have proven it, we plan to have most areas of
our application infrastructure for all of the site migrated to the new
architecture by middle of 2004."




John D. wrote:
Heh, it is just a bunch of FUD. These are *projected* numbers for 2005.
In fact eBay currently runs on Microsoft platform and doing great.
It is yet to be seen how successful the new eBay architecture will be.
These decisions are often made not by engineers but by senior executives
for the sake of press-releases. You can shout all you want how cool eBay
on J2EE will be. We will believe it when we see it. Get back to us when
it is up and running.

Jul 19 '05 #33

P: n/a
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:31:13 -0400, asj wrote:
since so many of our resident wintrolls decided to open their mouths
without thinking, let's do a nice recap below:
they were in their finest "denial" mode... saying anything to avoid
actually admitting that .NET had lost big time...

--
Had to reboot your ms-windows computer yet today???
<http://makeashorterlink.com/?X27F52465>Mr. Gates acknowledged today that the company's error reporting service
indicated that 5 percent of all Windows-based computers now crash more
than twice each day.

Jul 19 '05 #34

P: n/a
asj
wow...an insider's viewpoint!

Kent Paul Dolan wrote:

I'm simply saying that it wouldn't be her fear of being sabotaged by M$,
but merely that on balance (this is news?) the M$ solution proved to be
just too freaking expensive to allow it to continue to waste eBay funds.

I'm guessing, I've been away 31 months, that Linux has now gained the
toehold that was being planned when I left.

I know that when I left, with a mix of WinNT and Solaris systems running
huge modules built from the same code base, the Solaris stuff built with
gmake and gcc, the WinNT stuff built with M$'s dappy VC++ bugfarm, the
cold crash rate was close to 200 to 1 to the disfavor of WinNT; I cannot
imagine that .NET, given the same M$ developers and M$ corporate
attitude toward blessing bug-ridden crap for commercial release, faired
a bit better.

So in the end, M$ and .NET was probably just too expensive a choice to
continue exploring.

The magnitude of eBay's software requirement dwarfs the capabilities of
pretty much every tool set around, and M$ cruft always by corporate
choice starts in the shallow end of the gene pool and doesn't move much,
so it is going to be as always among the first toolset to fail.

When I was at eBay you could tell when the software was having a bad
day: TV trucks would be parked on the front lawn and crews trying to
interview _anybody_ when I walked onto the eBay campus from my commuter
train ride and two mile hike to work.

Too many times for M$ to remain a prime vendor, that was a WinNT bad
day.

xanthian.

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Jul 19 '05 #35

P: n/a
Please don't post off topic posts. comp.lang.java.advocacy is for the
promotion of microsoft products by microsoft employees

Steve
asj <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:<3F***********@xx.com>...
awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

Jul 19 '05 #36

P: n/a
Very good find on that implementation status for the eBay rollout!
This is an excellent case study on how to architect a mind-boggling IT
feat using J2EE, and it is an exceptional win for Java and all Java
developers (and other proponents of Open, multi-vendor standards).

I noticed there are actually other pages around that which examine the
architecture of the system.

Here is one note which I find very comforting, and puts to rest
accusations by the "winny-lovers" around here that it is not possible
to make J2EE portable. Indeed, I find the situation of J2EE (and Java
in general) similar to that voiced by political pundits who say that
democracy may not be the perfect solution, but it's the best solution
out there. In the same way, Java is the best solution out there when
it comes to enterprise-level robustness, security, and cross-platform
portability.

http://www.sun.com/service/about/suc...nt/ebay_4.html

Staying to the J2EE Standard
Designing and building to the J2EE technology standard was a guiding
objective for eBay. "One of our architectural design principles was
the need to architect and write to industry-standard J2EE
specifications," notes Geiger. "We wanted to make sure that we would
have the flexibility of vendor independence, something that we felt
the Sun consultants would help ensure." Sun served in what Geiger
describes as a "watch-dog role," helping to ensure that development
coincided with J2EE technology standards—not drifting into
vendor-specific, proprietary architectural components. As part of the
endeavor to do this, eBay engaged Sun consultants to help design an
application architecture that it would run on both IBM WebSphere
Application Server and Sun ONE Application Server. "With an already
established, long-term relationship in place, we looked to Sun for
assistance in helping us to conform to industry standards," says
Geiger. "Sun wrote the standards behind Java technology, and we were
confident that the ‘inventor'; of such would give us the best
guidance. We thus engaged Sun consultants to help us learn how to
write code, how to do architecture design, how to document, how to
follow development best practices—essentially everything across the
spectrum. With the help of Sun, we are in a solid position with
compliance with the J2EE technology standard as well as processes and
documentation to help ensure that we stick to it."
asj <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:<3F***********@xx.com>...
here's the current status on it, dated April 2003:

"EBAY V3 ROLLOUT STATUS" (dated April 2003)
http://www.sun.com/service/about/suc...nt/ebay_5.html

Phase One-Design Concepts
Starting in December, 2000, Phase One demonstrated the viability of the
proposed architecture design, ranging from the need for individual
services' tiers, to security requirements, to proposed development
frameworks. According to Geiger, "The approach was to select a small
piece of the site's infrastructure for migration to the V3 architecture,
with the ability to quickly revert to the V2 version in case of any
problems. The plan was to learn from design patterns-those that
worked-for development efficiency. The development plan was designed in
mind all of the way down to those managing the operations, with the goal
of sorting through all of the issues at one time, thereby allowing us to
resolve potential issues before other applications were brought into
production."
Phase One release of the J2EE technology-based architecture was
completed in December, 2001.

Phase Two-Proof of Concepts and Initial Deployments
Phase Two, with Phase One complete and the architecture solidified, was
intended, as Geiger explains, "to prove scalability by selecting one of
the most heavily trafficked areas of the site." That section is what
eBay defines as the "View Item" area, which accounts for about 65
percent of all site traffic. Although the functionality itself is fairly
simple, the high traffic and transaction volume of the area was chosen
to demonstrate that the new architecture would scale. Complete migration
of "View Item" to the new architecture was achieved in June, 2002.

With this migration, close to 75 percent of the eBay traffic is now being handled by the new architecture-which translates to over
400-million transactions per day.

Phase Three-Wide-Scale Migration
The final phase, Phase Three, which was initiated in July, 2002, will be
to migrate eBay's entire infrastructure to the new architecture. Geiger
explains, "Phase Three is effectively bringing the J2EE
[technology-based] architecture to the masses, the general development
population."

In addition to moving its existing infrastructure to the new
architecture, all new business requests will be built on the V3
architecture. "Working with Sun Services' training specialists, we
developed a sequential, targeted training and development program," says
Geiger. That development plan includes certification in Java technology.
"With our development team now adequately trained in Java [technology]
and development best practices in place, we can begin designing and
implementing new business requests within this new architectural
framework." Geiger acknowledges that the completion of this change will
take time. "Now that we have proven it, we plan to have most areas of
our application infrastructure for all of the site migrated to the new
architecture by middle of 2004."

Jul 19 '05 #37

P: n/a
asj
John D. wrote:
Wasn't Sun responsible for major eBay outages? Some people never learn.
Besides, 74% out of these 75% are handled by Microsoft web-servers
on frontend and Oracle database on backend.

do yourself a favor and stop looking like an idiot and actually read the
post and the link (i posted it below):
the new JAVA backend is handling 75% of the total load already (from the
proprietary in-house system). by 2004, they'll have replaced everything
(including the front end, probably with jsp).

also, read kent dolan's posts...he seems to have worked there...one of
his quotes:
"I know that when I left, with a mix of WinNT and Solaris systems
running
huge modules built from the same code base, the Solaris stuff built with
gmake and gcc, the WinNT stuff built with M$'s dappy VC++ bugfarm, the
cold crash rate was close to 200 to 1 to the disfavor of WinNT; I cannot
imagine that .NET, given the same M$ developers and M$ corporate
attitude toward blessing bug-ridden crap for commercial release, faired
a bit better. So in the end, M$ and .NET was probably just too expensive
a choice to
continue exploring."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"EBAY V3 ROLLOUT STATUS" (dated April 2003)
http://www.sun.com/service/about/suc...nt/ebay_5.html

Phase One-Design Concepts
Starting in December, 2000, Phase One demonstrated the viability of the
proposed architecture design, ranging from the need for individual
services' tiers, to security requirements, to proposed development
frameworks. According to Geiger, "The approach was to select a small
piece of the site's infrastructure for migration to the V3 architecture,
with the ability to quickly revert to the V2 version in case of any
problems. The plan was to learn from design patterns-those that
worked-for development efficiency. The development plan was designed in
mind all of the way down to those managing the operations, with the goal
of sorting through all of the issues at one time, thereby allowing us to
resolve potential issues before other applications were brought into
production."
Phase One release of the J2EE technology-based architecture was
completed in December, 2001.

Phase Two-Proof of Concepts and Initial Deployments
Phase Two, with Phase One complete and the architecture solidified, was
intended, as Geiger explains, "to prove scalability by selecting one of
the most heavily trafficked areas of the site." That section is what
eBay defines as the "View Item" area, which accounts for about 65
percent of all site traffic. Although the functionality itself is fairly
simple, the high traffic and transaction volume of the area was chosen
to demonstrate that the new architecture would scale. Complete migration
of "View Item" to the new architecture was achieved in June, 2002.

With this migration, close to 75 percent of the eBay traffic is now
being handled by the new architecture-which translates to over
400-million transactions per day.

Phase Three-Wide-Scale Migration
The final phase, Phase Three, which was initiated in July, 2002, will be
to migrate eBay's entire infrastructure to the new architecture. Geiger
explains, "Phase Three is effectively bringing the J2EE
[technology-based] architecture to the masses, the general development
population."

In addition to moving its existing infrastructure to the new
architecture, all new business requests will be built on the V3
architecture. "Working with Sun Services' training specialists, we
developed a sequential, targeted training and development program," says
Geiger. That development plan includes certification in Java technology.
"With our development team now adequately trained in Java [technology]
and development best practices in place, we can begin designing and
implementing new business requests within this new architectural
framework." Geiger acknowledges that the completion of this change will
take time. "Now that we have proven it, we plan to have most areas of
our application infrastructure for all of the site migrated to the new
architecture by middle of 2004."
Jul 19 '05 #38

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