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Any Oracle victims here?

P: n/a
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.
Feb 10 '06 #1
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22 Replies


P: n/a
> Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Always sorry to hear that some company has voted for "the cheapest possible
tech help," regardless of what country the help lives in. Anyone that can do
the job as well as someone in this country with a given salary will almost
always command the given salary. And cheap tech help is only cheap in the
short run. It is very expensive in the long run.

Sounds like Oracle is circling the drain.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:uG***************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.

Feb 10 '06 #2

P: n/a

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:OR**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.


Always sorry to hear that some company has voted for "the cheapest
possible tech help," regardless of what country the help lives in. Anyone
that can do the job as well as someone in this country with a given salary
will almost always command the given salary. And cheap tech help is only
cheap in the short run. It is very expensive in the long run.

Sounds like Oracle is circling the drain.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.

Or, Larry needs a new mega-yacht ;)
Feb 10 '06 #3

P: n/a
Rob R. Ainscough wrote:
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.


Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.

I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.

For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb 11 '06 #4

P: n/a

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:uG***************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

They are late, it was the start of the success from Baan.

:-)

Cor
Feb 11 '06 #5

P: n/a
> For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.
Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put it
this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job here. If I
lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my skill level in
India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of money. In other words,
it is almost always skill level that determines the amount of money that a
technician (such as a developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore,
any company that outsources to another country to find cheaper technical
help is going to get poorer quality technical help. That will save money in
the short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The biggest
cost factor in the software business is not development; it's support.

I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.

I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries, but
last 7 times as long. Do the math.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com... Rob R. Ainscough wrote:
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.


Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.

I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.

For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feb 11 '06 #6

P: n/a
Kevin Spencer wrote:
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of
the code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if
you can get it done by a team of software engineers in country B
for half the price.
Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me
put it this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and
get a job here.


no, that's a myth. Lots of people from India went to the US years ago,
but go back now. In the 'west', people often think that only in the
'west' universities deliver proper technicians. Not so. Remember, in
India there live near 1 billion people, and they have a lot of
universities, which every year deliver highly trained people. You
really think these people are educated beyond 'community college' level
? If you do, think again.
If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and make
that amount of money. In other words, it is almost always skill level
that determines the amount of money that a technician (such as a
developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore, any company that
outsources to another country to find cheaper technical help is going
to get poorer quality technical help.
only if your assumption that everyone with proper skills leaves the
country to the US. Which isn't the case anymore.
That will save money in the
short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The
biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support.
Well, I own an ISV and I think you're wrong. I don't outsource to
india, but I can tell you that money spend on development of our
product is way higher than we spend on support personell, and we don't
sacrifice on support at all (ask around, we deliver top notch quality).

You forget that software development is often a long-term process,
with multiple people involved for a long time. This takes serious
money. Supporting it afterwards is only more expensive if you need more
support engineers for a longer period of time than the development
took, which I don't think is true.

What particular saddens me is the prejudice in your post. As if there
aren't any good software engineers outside the 'west'. I have the
strong believe that this same prejudice is the nail on the coffin of
modern societies as we know it. Here in the netherlands the government
is strongly focussed on transforming our economy into a 'knowledge
economy'. However they forget that our society simply can't keep up
with teh amount of highly educated people coming from universities in
for example eastern europe or the ukraine, left alone the vast numbers
of people coming from the universities in india and china.

Now, we here in the 'west' can pretend these people are just not on
'our' level of education and can only do what we think is work for the
uneducated, but I can assure you, unless we work together with these
raising economies, we here in the west will play second fiddle.

Be aware, I don't say they're all good, but that also applies to a LOT
of the software engineers here in the west. We have customers in over
50 countries and therefore receive support calls from those countries
as well, and I can't see a pattern of which you can conclude the people
in the 'west' are higher skilled than the people 'outside the west'.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but
last 4 times as long. Do the math.
That has nothing to do with software engineers. You forget that once
you've designed a piece of software (part of a software program for
example), the most time is spend on typing it in! Transforming spec to
code. Make no mistake, every large company who sells software on this
planet uses production plants in india, also Microsoft.

You also drive an american car? If so, does it last longer than for
example a japanese car? If you say 'yes', look up the reliability
charts of a brand like toyota vs. 'american cars'.

But as with all examples, they only proof that the example is correct,
not the hypothese.
I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline
batteries, but last 7 times as long. Do the math.
what does this have to do with the statement at hand? I use korean
based hardware, because I know it's top notch quality. Does that proof
I'm right and you're wrong? No.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.


I wasn't talking about the free lunch, I was talking about the large
part of the labour which is simply boring and repetitive work, and
which can also be done by evenly skilled people elsewhere for a lower
price tag. For example, a lot of the 3D design work today is done in
Shanghai and other large chinese cities. Sounds odd? no not at all. The
educational level is high, the number of people who can do the job is
high, so why not use that workforce?

For a multinational like Oracle and Microsoft, it's the same if the
bulk work is done in Bangalore or in the US.

You know what's still the same in both situations? The team who
designs the specs, keeps track of what's going on. In fact, the people
who actualy DO the work are outside that team. They're sort of 'human
code generators'. The important thing is that the meta-data, the specs,
have to be correct, otherwise the code you get is wrong. But is that
different from having the programmers in the US? I don't think so,
especially in large teams.

So the 'west' should invest time in keeping that position and not by
denying they HAVE TO spend time to keeping that position. One way to do
that is by making a lot of typing during the code writing process a
thing of the past. IMHO more effective than simply deny they're up to
par, because that's the most silliest thing 'we' can do here. But you
can keep up the state of denial of course. Just don't be surprised some
guy in bangalore outperforms you in the next 5 years because his skill
level is up to par with yours but he's simply more motivated and
doesn't ask the pricetag you do.

FB
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb 12 '06 #7

P: n/a
Frans,

Although I agree almost complete what you write, is there an other aspect.
What I will show with a real Dutch product. (Not that it is for our market a
important product however for ourselves it is very much Dutch.) The bicycle.

You forgot to mention one of the most important countries in computer
hardware Taiwan.

One of their starting products was as far as I know bicycles. Americans and
Dutch have sent their bicycles to copy them and produce them in Taiwan. Now
they are making much better bicycles as those they got to copy and are one
of the leaders in the inventions around the bicycle.

The counterpart is that it forced at least the Dutch to make as well better
bicycles. Ko Gaastra, from the neighbourhood where you are born. was one of
those who succeeded in that. Most Dutch were at the start thinking that KoGa
Miyatea was from Japan, however that was just a marketing thing, it is/was
made by hand in Friesland. I assume that you know the quality of that
product and the ones which are look alikes now from that in Holland (sorry
Friesland).

By the way, Taiwan is now very much outsourcing to China.

Cor

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> schreef in bericht
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
> For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of
> the code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if
> you can get it done by a team of software engineers in country B
> for half the price.


Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me
put it this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and
get a job here.


no, that's a myth. Lots of people from India went to the US years ago,
but go back now. In the 'west', people often think that only in the
'west' universities deliver proper technicians. Not so. Remember, in
India there live near 1 billion people, and they have a lot of
universities, which every year deliver highly trained people. You
really think these people are educated beyond 'community college' level
? If you do, think again.
If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and make
that amount of money. In other words, it is almost always skill level
that determines the amount of money that a technician (such as a
developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore, any company that
outsources to another country to find cheaper technical help is going
to get poorer quality technical help.


only if your assumption that everyone with proper skills leaves the
country to the US. Which isn't the case anymore.
That will save money in the
short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The
biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support.


Well, I own an ISV and I think you're wrong. I don't outsource to
india, but I can tell you that money spend on development of our
product is way higher than we spend on support personell, and we don't
sacrifice on support at all (ask around, we deliver top notch quality).

You forget that software development is often a long-term process,
with multiple people involved for a long time. This takes serious
money. Supporting it afterwards is only more expensive if you need more
support engineers for a longer period of time than the development
took, which I don't think is true.

What particular saddens me is the prejudice in your post. As if there
aren't any good software engineers outside the 'west'. I have the
strong believe that this same prejudice is the nail on the coffin of
modern societies as we know it. Here in the netherlands the government
is strongly focussed on transforming our economy into a 'knowledge
economy'. However they forget that our society simply can't keep up
with teh amount of highly educated people coming from universities in
for example eastern europe or the ukraine, left alone the vast numbers
of people coming from the universities in india and china.

Now, we here in the 'west' can pretend these people are just not on
'our' level of education and can only do what we think is work for the
uneducated, but I can assure you, unless we work together with these
raising economies, we here in the west will play second fiddle.

Be aware, I don't say they're all good, but that also applies to a LOT
of the software engineers here in the west. We have customers in over
50 countries and therefore receive support calls from those countries
as well, and I can't see a pattern of which you can conclude the people
in the 'west' are higher skilled than the people 'outside the west'.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but
last 4 times as long. Do the math.


That has nothing to do with software engineers. You forget that once
you've designed a piece of software (part of a software program for
example), the most time is spend on typing it in! Transforming spec to
code. Make no mistake, every large company who sells software on this
planet uses production plants in india, also Microsoft.

You also drive an american car? If so, does it last longer than for
example a japanese car? If you say 'yes', look up the reliability
charts of a brand like toyota vs. 'american cars'.

But as with all examples, they only proof that the example is correct,
not the hypothese.
I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline
batteries, but last 7 times as long. Do the math.


what does this have to do with the statement at hand? I use korean
based hardware, because I know it's top notch quality. Does that proof
I'm right and you're wrong? No.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.


I wasn't talking about the free lunch, I was talking about the large
part of the labour which is simply boring and repetitive work, and
which can also be done by evenly skilled people elsewhere for a lower
price tag. For example, a lot of the 3D design work today is done in
Shanghai and other large chinese cities. Sounds odd? no not at all. The
educational level is high, the number of people who can do the job is
high, so why not use that workforce?

For a multinational like Oracle and Microsoft, it's the same if the
bulk work is done in Bangalore or in the US.

You know what's still the same in both situations? The team who
designs the specs, keeps track of what's going on. In fact, the people
who actualy DO the work are outside that team. They're sort of 'human
code generators'. The important thing is that the meta-data, the specs,
have to be correct, otherwise the code you get is wrong. But is that
different from having the programmers in the US? I don't think so,
especially in large teams.

So the 'west' should invest time in keeping that position and not by
denying they HAVE TO spend time to keeping that position. One way to do
that is by making a lot of typing during the code writing process a
thing of the past. IMHO more effective than simply deny they're up to
par, because that's the most silliest thing 'we' can do here. But you
can keep up the state of denial of course. Just don't be surprised some
guy in bangalore outperforms you in the next 5 years because his skill
level is up to par with yours but he's simply more motivated and
doesn't ask the pricetag you do.

FB
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feb 12 '06 #8

P: n/a
I have to disagree with the money approach because cost of living is
different around the world. Even in the US, it's cheaper to live in Texas
than in California. Likewise, overall, it's cheaper to live in India than
in the US. So, even though US companies are spending less from work in
India, the workers there may be making more "real" money than their
counterparts in the US.

I also agree with Frans regarding the quality of work. Regardless of where
you're at, you'll have good programmers and bad programmers. When
offshoring started, companies only looked at the bottom line when they made
their decisions. In quite a few cases, these decisions were wrong. Now,
however, I believe companies (regardless of location) are smarter in their
decision making processes when outsourcing and offshoring. Nowadays, a
software company in New York City may strongly consider outsourcing to a
company in Valdosta, GA as much as Bangalore, India. It's all economy of
scale where value has to be placed on the quality of the work done. If you
can get in better for the best price in India, then go for it.

Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:ed*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.


Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put
it this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money
with my skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job
here. If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of
money. In other words, it is almost always skill level that determines the
amount of money that a technician (such as a developer) makes, not country
of origin. Therefore, any company that outsources to another country to
find cheaper technical help is going to get poorer quality technical help.
That will save money in the short run, but cost more money in the long run
due to buggy software, poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support
time, etc. The biggest cost factor in the software business is not
development; it's support.

I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.

I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries,
but last 7 times as long. Do the math.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...
Rob R. Ainscough wrote:
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.


Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.

I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.

For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Feb 12 '06 #9

P: n/a
*Sigh* inline:
no, that's a myth. Lots of people from India went to the US years ago,
but go back now. In the 'west', people often think that only in the
'west' universities deliver proper technicians. Not so. Remember, in
India there live near 1 billion people, and they have a lot of
universities, which every year deliver highly trained people. You
really think these people are educated beyond 'community college' level
? If you do, think again.
First of all, my first and second statements were to be taken as a single
idea. The idea is that one makes as much money as one is capable of. A
programmer is a problem solver. I can't imagine that people in India aren't
interested in making more money. Therefore, it is logical to assume that if
a person is capable of making more money, and that person is a programmer,
that person will find a way to make more money, whether it is by moving to
the U.S. (or some other country with high wages), or, if higher-paying jobs
are available in India, will take a higher-paying job in India.

Second, my reference to India was not a statement about India, or people
from India. It was (obviously) meant as an example of a country where most
people (nearly 1 billion by your account) are poor. Note the lack of any
characterization of the country, nor the people. All characterization
attributed by you came from your own imagination.

Third, who said anything at all about "the west" (other than you)? I used
the U.S. as an example, because it is one of the richest countries in the
world, and I am from the U.S. Therefore I know more about it than I do other
countries. I could have looked up the exact richest country in the world,
but that was not germain to my argument. Again, you make assumptions
regarding what I said, although I said nothing of the sort. And you are a C#
developer? I hope you don't program with that logic!
only if your assumption that everyone with proper skills leaves the
country to the US. Which isn't the case anymore.
Did you read what I said? I said "If I lived in India, and I could make
twice as much money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and
make that amount of money." Now where did that statement say anything about
leaving India "to the US?" Again, you missed my point, which I could have
sworn I explained thoroughly. It sounds to me like *you* are the one making
assumptions here.

Heck, Frans, there are quite a few people from India working for Microsoft,
and most of them live in Redmond or thereabouts. I've worked with some
highly intelligent and qualified people from India in my time. I didn't go
to India to meet them, though. I'm sure there are some people there who are
very qualified. I'm equally sure they don't do grunt work for Oracle, and
get paid pennies to do it.
Well, I own an ISV and I think you're wrong. I don't outsource to
india, but I can tell you that money spend on development of our
product is way higher than we spend on support personell, and we don't
sacrifice on support at all (ask around, we deliver top notch quality).
Well, there's a statistic for you. Of course, I couldn't help but notice
that you company has produced only a couple of pieces of software since
1997. Interestingly, I took a look at Microsoft's publicly-available
financial statement for 2006 (Second financial Quarter). Out of their total
operating costs (about 7.2 billion dollars), only 2.2 billion was used for
actual product development.
Now, we here in the 'west' can pretend these people are just not on
'our' level of education and can only do what we think is work for the
uneducated, but I can assure you, unless we work together with these
raising economies, we here in the west will play second fiddle.
There you go with that "west" thing again. Dude, I'm talking about
economics, not politics or culture. And I'm not talking about any country's
"level of education." Heck, I have no idea what any country's "level of
education" is. But I do know there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Be aware, I don't say they're all good, but that also applies to a LOT
of the software engineers here in the west. We have customers in over
50 countries and therefore receive support calls from those countries
as well, and I can't see a pattern of which you can conclude the people
in the 'west' are higher skilled than the people 'outside the west'.
WTFO?! I can see a pattern here, but it's in *your* attitude, not mine.
Sure, there are plenty of poor programmers all over. And guess what? Most of
them get paid what they earn. Unfortunately, a lot of them get paid *more*
than they deserve. Particularly here in the "west." But not the really good
ones. They make a heck of a lot more. In a wealthy economy, everyone
benefits from the overall wealth. That's just a fact of life. More money to
go around, I suppose.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but
last 4 times as long. Do the math.


That has nothing to do with software engineers. You forget that once
you've designed a piece of software (part of a software program for
example), the most time is spend on typing it in!


I'm talking about value, man, not shoes!
I wasn't talking about the free lunch, I was talking about the large
part of the labour which is simply boring and repetitive work, and
which can also be done by evenly skilled people elsewhere for a lower
price tag.
Now, there's something to that point. But there is a certain minimal (and by
that, I don't mean "small") amount of skill needed there as well. If the
designer did everything but dot the i's and cross the t's, you might be
right. But I've had some pretty darned ignorant people working under me, and
I spent a heck of a lot of time (for which I am paid what I deserve)
cleaning up after them.

So, once we get all that "west" garbage out of the way, we can disagree
about the question of whether it's cheaper in the long run to outsource to a
3rd-world country and pay a heck of a lot less for what still amounts to
technically-skilled labor. Time will tell. I know how I'm going to bet.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com... Kevin Spencer wrote:
> For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of
> the code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if
> you can get it done by a team of software engineers in country B
> for half the price.


Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me
put it this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and
get a job here.


no, that's a myth. Lots of people from India went to the US years ago,
but go back now. In the 'west', people often think that only in the
'west' universities deliver proper technicians. Not so. Remember, in
India there live near 1 billion people, and they have a lot of
universities, which every year deliver highly trained people. You
really think these people are educated beyond 'community college' level
? If you do, think again.
If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much
money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and make
that amount of money. In other words, it is almost always skill level
that determines the amount of money that a technician (such as a
developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore, any company that
outsources to another country to find cheaper technical help is going
to get poorer quality technical help.


only if your assumption that everyone with proper skills leaves the
country to the US. Which isn't the case anymore.
That will save money in the
short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The
biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support.


Well, I own an ISV and I think you're wrong. I don't outsource to
india, but I can tell you that money spend on development of our
product is way higher than we spend on support personell, and we don't
sacrifice on support at all (ask around, we deliver top notch quality).

You forget that software development is often a long-term process,
with multiple people involved for a long time. This takes serious
money. Supporting it afterwards is only more expensive if you need more
support engineers for a longer period of time than the development
took, which I don't think is true.

What particular saddens me is the prejudice in your post. As if there
aren't any good software engineers outside the 'west'. I have the
strong believe that this same prejudice is the nail on the coffin of
modern societies as we know it. Here in the netherlands the government
is strongly focussed on transforming our economy into a 'knowledge
economy'. However they forget that our society simply can't keep up
with teh amount of highly educated people coming from universities in
for example eastern europe or the ukraine, left alone the vast numbers
of people coming from the universities in india and china.

Now, we here in the 'west' can pretend these people are just not on
'our' level of education and can only do what we think is work for the
uneducated, but I can assure you, unless we work together with these
raising economies, we here in the west will play second fiddle.

Be aware, I don't say they're all good, but that also applies to a LOT
of the software engineers here in the west. We have customers in over
50 countries and therefore receive support calls from those countries
as well, and I can't see a pattern of which you can conclude the people
in the 'west' are higher skilled than the people 'outside the west'.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but
last 4 times as long. Do the math.


That has nothing to do with software engineers. You forget that once
you've designed a piece of software (part of a software program for
example), the most time is spend on typing it in! Transforming spec to
code. Make no mistake, every large company who sells software on this
planet uses production plants in india, also Microsoft.

You also drive an american car? If so, does it last longer than for
example a japanese car? If you say 'yes', look up the reliability
charts of a brand like toyota vs. 'american cars'.

But as with all examples, they only proof that the example is correct,
not the hypothese.
I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline
batteries, but last 7 times as long. Do the math.


what does this have to do with the statement at hand? I use korean
based hardware, because I know it's top notch quality. Does that proof
I'm right and you're wrong? No.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.


I wasn't talking about the free lunch, I was talking about the large
part of the labour which is simply boring and repetitive work, and
which can also be done by evenly skilled people elsewhere for a lower
price tag. For example, a lot of the 3D design work today is done in
Shanghai and other large chinese cities. Sounds odd? no not at all. The
educational level is high, the number of people who can do the job is
high, so why not use that workforce?

For a multinational like Oracle and Microsoft, it's the same if the
bulk work is done in Bangalore or in the US.

You know what's still the same in both situations? The team who
designs the specs, keeps track of what's going on. In fact, the people
who actualy DO the work are outside that team. They're sort of 'human
code generators'. The important thing is that the meta-data, the specs,
have to be correct, otherwise the code you get is wrong. But is that
different from having the programmers in the US? I don't think so,
especially in large teams.

So the 'west' should invest time in keeping that position and not by
denying they HAVE TO spend time to keeping that position. One way to do
that is by making a lot of typing during the code writing process a
thing of the past. IMHO more effective than simply deny they're up to
par, because that's the most silliest thing 'we' can do here. But you
can keep up the state of denial of course. Just don't be surprised some
guy in bangalore outperforms you in the next 5 years because his skill
level is up to par with yours but he's simply more motivated and
doesn't ask the pricetag you do.

FB
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feb 12 '06 #10

P: n/a
Yes, the cost of living is different around the world. But again, if I could
compete with the talent and make twice the money I do working in the UK, I'd
move there. Otherwise, I'd find a job here where I could make that kind of
money. It's pretty simple economics.

Yes, there are plenty of poor programmers right here in the USA. And there
are companies that hire them, looking for a bargain. And those companies
usually fail.
Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how popular
Adolf Hitler was before 1939...

Yes, there is a world economy. And it's the same all over. Economics is not
that complicated. It's all about math, it's all about supply and demand, and
it's all about competition. You either compete, or you get the s**t kicked
out of you. You compete, not by being cheaper than the next guy, but by
being wiser than the next guy. Take a look at General Motors, here in the
U.S. They slept while Japan competed. Now, they're going under. Fortunately,
Japanese car companies have plenty of factories here to handle the people
who have been laid off by GM. If you follow the crowd, be sure they're not a
bunch of Lemmings.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Christopher Reed" <ca****@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...I have to disagree with the money approach because cost of living is
different around the world. Even in the US, it's cheaper to live in Texas
than in California. Likewise, overall, it's cheaper to live in India than
in the US. So, even though US companies are spending less from work in
India, the workers there may be making more "real" money than their
counterparts in the US.

I also agree with Frans regarding the quality of work. Regardless of
where you're at, you'll have good programmers and bad programmers. When
offshoring started, companies only looked at the bottom line when they
made their decisions. In quite a few cases, these decisions were wrong.
Now, however, I believe companies (regardless of location) are smarter in
their decision making processes when outsourcing and offshoring.
Nowadays, a software company in New York City may strongly consider
outsourcing to a company in Valdosta, GA as much as Bangalore, India.
It's all economy of scale where value has to be placed on the quality of
the work done. If you can get in better for the best price in India, then
go for it.

Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:ed*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.


Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put
it this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money
with my skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job
here. If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of
money. In other words, it is almost always skill level that determines
the amount of money that a technician (such as a developer) makes, not
country of origin. Therefore, any company that outsources to another
country to find cheaper technical help is going to get poorer quality
technical help. That will save money in the short run, but cost more
money in the long run due to buggy software, poorly-designed software,
maintenance time, support time, etc. The biggest cost factor in the
software business is not development; it's support.

I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.

I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries,
but last 7 times as long. Do the math.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...
Rob R. Ainscough wrote:

Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.

Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.

I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.

For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Feb 12 '06 #11

P: n/a

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:OR*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Yes, the cost of living is different around the world. But again, if I
could compete with the talent and make twice the money I do working in the
UK, I'd move there. Otherwise, I'd find a job here where I could make that
kind of money. It's pretty simple economics.

Yes, there are plenty of poor programmers right here in the USA. And there
are companies that hire them, looking for a bargain. And those companies
usually fail.
I think you miss my point about cost of living. For example, I can have a
job in Texas that pays $50,000 a year or I can have a job in New York that
pays $100,000 a year. Which is the better paying job? To answer the
question, you have to look at cost of living. Say that cost of living is
2.5 times that in New York compared to Texas. So, my $50,000 in Texas is
equivalent to $125,000 in New York. So, Texas actually looks like a better
paying job. Granted, there are other factors, but overall, economy of scale
as associated with cost of living is still important to consider.
Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....


Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how popular
Adolf Hitler was before 1939...

Yes, there is a world economy. And it's the same all over. Economics is
not that complicated. It's all about math, it's all about supply and
demand, and it's all about competition. You either compete, or you get the
s**t kicked out of you. You compete, not by being cheaper than the next
guy, but by being wiser than the next guy. Take a look at General Motors,
here in the U.S. They slept while Japan competed. Now, they're going
under. Fortunately, Japanese car companies have plenty of factories here
to handle the people who have been laid off by GM. If you follow the
crowd, be sure they're not a bunch of Lemmings.


I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that we cannot be ignorant of
how one country fits into the world economy as compared to another. If it's
cheaper to build it Japan, then so be it. The US manufacturers will either
adapt or fail. That's my point, which doesn't seem to be too far from your
own.

By the way, that's neither a BORROWER nor a lender be. Frankly, I have no
opinion regarding the world economy except that it exists and won't be going
away any time soon.
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."
Feb 13 '06 #12

P: n/a
Kevin,

Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how popular
Adolf Hitler was before 1939...


The economy in Germany was before 1939 real top looking at the rest of
Europe. The people who were called real Germans had a very good life as they
never had before, but the good jobs were only for them. That is exactly the
idealogie of Hitler, it is alone focused on the own nation and the
superiority of that (and what they thought were the original inhabitants,
although Germany is as most European countries historical a mixing pot of
all kind of cultures).

Cor
Feb 13 '06 #13

P: n/a
Cor Ligthert [MVP] wrote:
Frans,

Although I agree almost complete what you write, is there an other
aspect. What I will show with a real Dutch product. (Not that it is
for our market a important product however for ourselves it is very
much Dutch.) The bicycle.

You forgot to mention one of the most important countries in computer
hardware Taiwan.

One of their starting products was as far as I know bicycles.
Americans and Dutch have sent their bicycles to copy them and produce
them in Taiwan. Now they are making much better bicycles as those
they got to copy and are one of the leaders in the inventions around
the bicycle.

The counterpart is that it forced at least the Dutch to make as well
better bicycles. Ko Gaastra, from the neighbourhood where you are
born. was one of those who succeeded in that. Most Dutch were at the
start thinking that KoGa Miyatea was from Japan, however that was
just a marketing thing, it is/was made by hand in Friesland. I assume
that you know the quality of that product and the ones which are look
alikes now from that in Holland (sorry Friesland).


True :) For years I thought they were made in Japan. But I think that
focussing on hand-made quality products isn't the point. The point is
that the bulk work, the work the majority of the people will
participate in, that work is doable everywhere, you just have to
instruct the workers well enough. Also in our business.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb 13 '06 #14

P: n/a
True :) For years I thought they were made in Japan. But I think that
focussing on hand-made quality products isn't the point. The point is
that the bulk work, the work the majority of the people will
participate in, that work is doable everywhere, you just have to
instruct the workers well enough. Also in our business.


This is as well true, however let me give you an other example. When I was
much younger than you are now, I was in the IBM typewriter and related
printer factory in Holland. They had examined to let those things be
manufactured with robots. Proofs had told that humans could do it still
better, so they stayed by doing that by humans. If it would have been then
cheaper by robots, than they would have done that. This kind of human work
is of course easy to export.

You see in my idea the oposite in the Japan car factories in the USA and
Europe. The total delivery cost will probably be much lower to produce it
their, while the Americans and Europeans have people enough to control those
robots in the same way as when it was done in Japan.

Cor
Feb 13 '06 #15

P: n/a
I agree with Cor. When I look at the world economy today, I believe that
everyone should reap the benefits for the work they do accordingly. Part of
this approach is to understand that a programmer in India making $5 an hour
may actually be better off than the programmer in New York making $30 an
hour. That doesn't mean that all corporations should send their programming
projects to India because you also have to take it account the quality of
the work performed.
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:u7*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Kevin,

Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how
popular Adolf Hitler was before 1939...


The economy in Germany was before 1939 real top looking at the rest of
Europe. The people who were called real Germans had a very good life as
they never had before, but the good jobs were only for them. That is
exactly the idealogie of Hitler, it is alone focused on the own nation and
the superiority of that (and what they thought were the original
inhabitants, although Germany is as most European countries historical a
mixing pot of all kind of cultures).

Cor

Feb 13 '06 #16

P: n/a
Hi Chris,
I think you miss my point about cost of living. For example, I can have a
job in Texas that pays $50,000 a year or I can have a job in New York that
pays $100,000 a year. Which is the better paying job? To answer the
question, you have to look at cost of living. Say that cost of living is
2.5 times that in New York compared to Texas. So, my $50,000 in Texas is
equivalent to $125,000 in New York. So, Texas actually looks like a
better paying job. Granted, there are other factors, but overall, economy
of scale as associated with cost of living is still important to consider.
I think you're missing *my* point. Remember, we're talking about a world
economy, right? Now, if I make $100,000 a year in New York, and I've bought
a $500,000 house in New York, and it's gone up in value at the same
percentage rate as a $200,000 house in Texas, when I retire, I can move to
Texas, and I've got twice as much "real" money to live on. Most people from
Third World countries who come to the U.S. do so to help their families.
Why? Because they can send more money back home, where it makes a bigger
difference.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that we cannot be ignorant
of how one country fits into the world economy as compared to another. If
it's cheaper to build it Japan, then so be it. The US manufacturers will
either adapt or fail. That's my point, which doesn't seem to be too far
from your own.
Actually, most Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are built in the U.S. So, it
isn't a matter of "cheaper to build it." It's a matter of "building it
better."
By the way, that's neither a BORROWER nor a lender be.
Actually, I meant "Neither a FOLLOWER nor a lender be." It's one of my Uncle
Chutney's sayings. ;-)

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.

"Christopher Reed" <ca****@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:OH**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:OR*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Yes, the cost of living is different around the world. But again, if I
could compete with the talent and make twice the money I do working in
the UK, I'd move there. Otherwise, I'd find a job here where I could make
that kind of money. It's pretty simple economics.

Yes, there are plenty of poor programmers right here in the USA. And
there are companies that hire them, looking for a bargain. And those
companies usually fail.


I think you miss my point about cost of living. For example, I can have a
job in Texas that pays $50,000 a year or I can have a job in New York that
pays $100,000 a year. Which is the better paying job? To answer the
question, you have to look at cost of living. Say that cost of living is
2.5 times that in New York compared to Texas. So, my $50,000 in Texas is
equivalent to $125,000 in New York. So, Texas actually looks like a
better paying job. Granted, there are other factors, but overall, economy
of scale as associated with cost of living is still important to consider.
Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....


Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how
popular Adolf Hitler was before 1939...

Yes, there is a world economy. And it's the same all over. Economics is
not that complicated. It's all about math, it's all about supply and
demand, and it's all about competition. You either compete, or you get
the s**t kicked out of you. You compete, not by being cheaper than the
next guy, but by being wiser than the next guy. Take a look at General
Motors, here in the U.S. They slept while Japan competed. Now, they're
going under. Fortunately, Japanese car companies have plenty of factories
here to handle the people who have been laid off by GM. If you follow the
crowd, be sure they're not a bunch of Lemmings.


I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that we cannot be ignorant
of how one country fits into the world economy as compared to another. If
it's cheaper to build it Japan, then so be it. The US manufacturers will
either adapt or fail. That's my point, which doesn't seem to be too far
from your own.

By the way, that's neither a BORROWER nor a lender be. Frankly, I have no
opinion regarding the world economy except that it exists and won't be
going away any time soon.
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

Feb 13 '06 #17

P: n/a
> Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
Not at all. It was meant to illustrate the point that "Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea." It had nothing to do with
any idea of any nation being superior, or even thinking of itself as being
superior. It was an example of a popular idea that was a very bad idea.

You should spend some time in the U.S. Somebody's been selling you a
political bill of goods about this country. We are no different than anyone
else, in terms of our humanity. We have a powerful military and a powerful
economy, yes, but that doesn't make us any qualitatively or morally "better"
or "different" than anyone else, and as an American, I can tell you that
most of us don't think that it does.

Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. But if he wasn't the richest man
in the world, the second richest man in the world would be the richest man
in the world. And he doesn't think of himself as being any better than
anyone else just because he is the richest man in the world. Why should
Americans, who, like everyone else, live, have children, work, and die,
think that simply because their country is wealthy that they are somehow
better than anyone else?

This world is just people, everywhere you go. They are basically the same
everywhere. Don't let your preconceptions about people impair your ability
to think and understand. I said "Just because something is popular doesn't
make it a good idea." Then I followed it up with an example (which almost
anyone in the world would be familiar with) of something that was popular
and was a very bad idea. That is all I intended to illustrate. If I had
illustrated the point with "In the 1960,s Nehru jackets were popular," half
the people who read the illustration wouldn't have a clue what I was talking
about. And that would be because a lot of people in the world were born
after the 1960s, didn't live in the U.S. back then, and don't even know what
a Nehru jacket *is*.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:u7*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... Kevin,

Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how
popular Adolf Hitler was before 1939...


The economy in Germany was before 1939 real top looking at the rest of
Europe. The people who were called real Germans had a very good life as
they never had before, but the good jobs were only for them. That is
exactly the idealogie of Hitler, it is alone focused on the own nation and
the superiority of that (and what they thought were the original
inhabitants, although Germany is as most European countries historical a
mixing pot of all kind of cultures).

Cor

Feb 13 '06 #18

P: n/a
> You see in my idea the oposite in the Japan car factories in the USA and
Europe. The total delivery cost will probably be much lower to produce it
their, while the Americans and Europeans have people enough to control
those robots in the same way as when it was done in Japan.
Actually, almost all Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are *manufactured* in
the U.S., by American laborers.

Go figure.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
True :) For years I thought they were made in Japan. But I think that
focussing on hand-made quality products isn't the point. The point is
that the bulk work, the work the majority of the people will
participate in, that work is doable everywhere, you just have to
instruct the workers well enough. Also in our business.


This is as well true, however let me give you an other example. When I was
much younger than you are now, I was in the IBM typewriter and related
printer factory in Holland. They had examined to let those things be
manufactured with robots. Proofs had told that humans could do it still
better, so they stayed by doing that by humans. If it would have been then
cheaper by robots, than they would have done that. This kind of human work
is of course easy to export.

You see in my idea the oposite in the Japan car factories in the USA and
Europe. The total delivery cost will probably be much lower to produce it
their, while the Americans and Europeans have people enough to control
those robots in the same way as when it was done in Japan.

Cor

Feb 13 '06 #19

P: n/a
hi kevin,

"The biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support."

You're absolutely right...

I really agree with you.

Thanks.

"Kevin Spencer" wrote:
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.


Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put it
this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job here. If I
lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my skill level in
India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of money. In other words,
it is almost always skill level that determines the amount of money that a
technician (such as a developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore,
any company that outsources to another country to find cheaper technical
help is going to get poorer quality technical help. That will save money in
the short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The biggest
cost factor in the software business is not development; it's support.

I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.

I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries, but
last 7 times as long. Do the math.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...
Rob R. Ainscough wrote:
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.

Rob.


Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.

I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.

For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Feb 14 '06 #20

P: n/a
technician (such as a developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore,
any company that outsources to another country to find cheaper technical
help is going to get poorer quality technical help.
You fail to take into account standard of living... It is not dictated
alone by wages. People might get along like a millionnaire in their country
with wages one third of those in the USA...

I have seen foreign people that are scary-smart in their field that would
whip any American's knowledge in a second. They remain in their country
because they like living there, plain and simple.

Also, Oracle has been outsourcing to India for a long time. Depending on
what time you call for support, the other person on the other end of the
phone line might be in a different continent. When their shift ends, the
support tickets and the phone calls go to the next place. I've used their
support and they have the most knowledgeable people I have met through tech
support.

Anyway, just assuming that people that are paid less, specially in other
countries, must know less is naive at best. You might be in for a surprise
one of these days.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.
Your examples along this line are not that good... What if I don't like the
shoes? No matter how much math I do, it ain't gonna change the shoe for my
taste...
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.


Hmm, so looking at things simplistically as you do, if I spend USD $90,000
for a Hummer, I get better mileage than a USD $25,000 Toyota Prius?

Of course it is not a simple as that... You could say, for example that
other countries that have less lawsuits and stupid laws have a big edge over
the USA in terms of cost of labor... India and China are fast sneaking up
on our complacent butts... We think we have something built-in that makes
us superior and un-catchable, but we do not... And our government aint
helpin'...
Feb 14 '06 #21

P: n/a
> You fail to take into account standard of living... It is not dictated
alone by wages. People might get along like a millionnaire in their
country with wages one third of those in the USA...
I didn't fail to take anything into account. You should read my other
responses.
I have seen foreign people that are scary-smart in their field that would
whip any American's knowledge in a second. They remain in their country
because they like living there, plain and simple.
Well, there's some validity to that thought. For example, I live on the east
coast of the U.S. I could move to Redmond and get a job with Microsoft, and
make a good bit more for the same work. But I would be too far from my
family, and choose not to. On the other hand, I moved here to make more
money than I did living in Alabama, and it is not far from any of my family.

However, I believe that statistically this is not the case. People from
Mexico, for example, are coming into the U.S. at an incredible rate. If I
lived in a 3rd-world country, I believe I would be much more motivated to
pull up stakes and go to a more wealthy country. This is, of course, not
something I can prove, but simply my intuition.

However, this is not a debate about "America" or Americans. This is a debate
about economics. People are the same everywhere. And there are just as many
smart people everywhere, including America. As to where the smartest people
live, I would imagine that they are scattered all over the world.
Also, Oracle has been outsourcing to India for a long time. Depending on
what time you call for support, the other person on the other end of the
phone line might be in a different continent. When their shift ends, the
support tickets and the phone calls go to the next place. I've used their
support and they have the most knowledgeable people I have met through
tech support.
So, why is Oracle failing to compete?
Your examples along this line are not that good... What if I don't like
the shoes? No matter how much math I do, it ain't gonna change the shoe
for my taste...
That's just silly. It's called an "analogy." Look up "analogy" in the
dictionary. It pays to increase your word power. Here, I'll make it easy for
you: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analogy
Hmm, so looking at things simplistically as you do, if I spend USD $90,000
for a Hummer, I get better mileage than a USD $25,000 Toyota Prius?


Who's being simplistic? This analogy sucks. First, the cost of a vehicle is
determined by quite a number of factors, and mileage is *not* one of them.
The cost of a vehicle is determined by the size of the vehicle, the quality
of the design, the number and kind of features, and the market (supply and
demand). A Hummer and a Toyota Prius are vehicles that fall into 2
completely different categories. When I was in the military, I drove a few
Hummers. They are designed as both on- and off-road vehicles, with swappable
2- and 4-wheel drive, a high ground clearance combined with a relatively low
center of gravity, a powerful diesel engine, and can drive over a 3-foot
vertical wall. In other words, they are utility vehicles, like a truck. A
Toyota Prius is simply a passenger car. The difference in price is
determined by the factors I listed above, for which the 2 vehicles have
completely different specs.

As a side note, you may be interested to know that I own a Toyota Matrix.
Anyone that drives an SUV and uses it as simply a passenger vehicle is
irresponsible and stupid. I drive 20 miles to work every day in heavy
traffic. I will save thousands of dollars a year in fuel as a result.
However, note that I did not buy a Toyota Matrix because it is cheap
(although it is reasonably priced). I bought it because when compared to
*similarly-priced* American cars, it delivers the best quality. It uses less
gas, performs better, and lasts longer. In other words, I didn't spend less
money; I researched and got the best value *for* the same amount of money.
BTW, almost all Toyotas sold in America are manufactured in America. How's
that for outsourcing?

Perhaps I should have said "All other things being equal, you get what you
pay for." It's implied, and generally not stated as such, but that's what it
means.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.

Feb 14 '06 #22

P: n/a
> I didn't fail to take anything into account. You should read my other
responses.
Hehe! I will trust you on this one... but people who say "yes, I have
taken absolutely everything into account" about anything warrant some
doubt...
However, I believe that statistically this is not the case. People from
Mexico, for example, are coming into the U.S. at an incredible rate.
I'll spare you the immigration debate, but...
If I lived in a 3rd-world country, I believe I would be much more
motivated to pull up stakes and go to a more wealthy country. This is, of
course, not something I can prove, but simply my intuition.
But what if you were in that 3rd world country and could suddenly earn twice
or even three times as much? Then you would have a very strong case to stay
and avoid being treated like a subhuman in another, more prosperous country.
So, why is Oracle failing to compete?
They are? hmm.... My guess is that you probably don't work with huge
databases where few other DBs cut it.
That's just silly. It's called an "analogy." Look up "analogy" in the
dictionary. It pays to increase your word power. Here, I'll make it easy
for you: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analogy
It's not an issue of word power, it's one of faulty reasoning.
Who's being simplistic? This analogy sucks. First, the cost of a vehicle
is determined by quite a number of factors, and mileage is *not* one of
them.


Ah so now it's much more complex than even your original "analogies"? Hehe!
Whetever... I ain't wasting more time on this dumb debate.
Feb 14 '06 #23

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