What programming language

[Jared]

This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
answers, rather than textbook answers.

Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
have done the following:
- Java (1 year experience)
- Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
programs)
- 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
programming)
- ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
quite good at it.
2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
JBuilder 6
I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Jared

[Elliott Back]

Jared wrote:

This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
answers, rather than textbook answers.

Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
have done the following:
- Java (1 year experience)
- Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
programs)
- 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
programming)
- ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
quite good at it.
2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
JBuilder 6
I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Jared

Microsoft's C# is quite fast, and is a Rapid App. Developement
environment as well. The .NET API is as rich as javas, and the typesafe
language, as well as the great IDE make it a pleasure, I gind, to use.
Speedwise, it's way faster than java, from what I can tell. The GUI is
sharp and responsive--it's the best way to write a Windows App.

--
Thanks,
Elliott C. Bäck
---------------------------------
www.elliottback.com/blog/
www.spreadIE.com

[W.G. Ryan eMVP]

Focus on Learning the framework - that's the real challenge in .NET. I flip
back and forth between VB.NET and C# all the time, the power of the IDE is
enough to get you through that, but understanding memory management,
security, Boxing etc, that's the real challenge. Once you learn the
framework you can learn either, both or any other .NET language very
quickly.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP (Windows Embedded)

TiBA Solutions
www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
"Jared" <de*******@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:58**************************@posting.google.c om...

This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
answers, rather than textbook answers.

Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
have done the following:
- Java (1 year experience)
- Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
programs)
- 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
programming)
- ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
quite good at it.
2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
JBuilder 6
I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Jared

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Elliott Back <el*****@cornell.edu> wrote:

<snip>

Speedwise, it's way faster than java, from what I can tell.

I would suggest that either you haven't used a modern JRE, or you
haven't seen well-written Java programs then.

Java has a slower startup time (it's improving, but it's still
relatively slow) but is roughly comparable for speed for most purposes.
There are some places where .NET wins, and some where Java wins.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Cor Ligthert]

Jared,

The languages C# and VBNet are almost the same as well as the results from
that.

I keep it for the moment to VBNet because I have proven that I am good in
making typos.
VBNet helps me a lot with that.

Otherwise I would not know why I should choose for the one or for the other,
they both have a lot of legacy stuff as every language, what when you are
busy let you think why do I have to type that stuff, it has no sense.

However keep in mind that
VBNet and C# are much more the same than VB6 and VBNet are, as Bill somewhat
wrote when you know one of them it is very easy to switch to the other.
(However than making a lot of typos)

Just my thought,

Cor

"Jared" <de*******@shaw.ca> schreef in bericht
news:58**************************@posting.google.c om...

This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
answers, rather than textbook answers.

Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
have done the following:
- Java (1 year experience)
- Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
programs)
- 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
programming)
- ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
quite good at it.
2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
JBuilder 6
I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Jared

[Jared]

I am not concerned about VB.net vs C#. I understand that running on
the framework makes both of those about the same in the performance
department. I have worked with VB6 and Java so VB.NET and C# syntax
are both quite farmiliar. The ultimate question is....is it better to
stick with VB6 for RAD projects? Is there are technologies that would
be better that aren't going to cost me more than I've already spent on
dev tools?

Thanks,

Jared

[Jared]

I don't want to make this a .NET or MS vs Java question. I am simply
after a cost effective solution to go with when starting my own
business. I found Java to be very clunky in the interface. I really
enjoyed my year programming in Java, but hated writing Interface code.
Besides my limited experience, which it seems that I would need a lot
more of to create a competitive app, I have never yet seen a Java app
that flows nicely. If this is possible and you don't want to turn this
into a big and unneccessary debate please feel free to email me and
give me some suggestions.

To everyone else that reads this post and is replying, please remember
that this post is intended to help me and others like me understand
what technology has worked for the small or single person business out
there.

Thanks again for everyones response so far.

[Cor Ligthert]

Jared,

This is a difficult question, you never know what there is tomorrow.

When it is about VB6 or VBNet the answer is in my opinion simple, VBNet is
much more productive.

And the OOP posibilities from all Net programs give you the possibilities
for an endless amount of self created classes, while the amount of Net base
classes are in my opinion often for almost everybody a suprise.

Sometimes you see documentated class which exist already very long, however
even when you are very active in this dotNet newsgroup never saw before.

Some standard classes are that good, that making them yourself is a waist of
time and in my opinion only good for hobbyists.

Just my thought,

Cor

[John Baker]

Jared wrote:

I am not concerned about VB.net vs C#. I understand that running on
the framework makes both of those about the same in the performance
department.

Followups set to alt.computer.consultants

You mentioned you were going into business - I'm going to assume that
means analysis, design, and programming on a contract basis.

I've been on my own for 4 years, and have worked for consulting firms
since 1992. Yet I am still just 1 person, so take what I say with a
grain of salt. Other peoples' milage may vary.

Since being on my own, what development tool I use has more often than
not been dictated by the client.

In the minority of cases where they have looked to me for that decision,
it has usually been a small shop (or small department in large shop whom
IT there is ignoring, most often due to being overworked).

Given that their needs were usually not complex, I never saw an example
where they couldn't be covered well with something as simple as MS
Access with either native Jet or SQL Server backend. For some reason my
clients have shied away from Web interfaces. Technical considerations
count, but also remember you won't always be there. You need to keep in
mind how easy it will be for your client to find someone to update your
work after you've moved on.

It is usually only larger, more complex projects that will need anything
more. I have never landed one of these as a one-man-shop, though I used
to do them all the time when I worked for a large firm. (Then again, my
marketing skills are sub-par I think.)

In fact, my presence here in the dotnet groups is due largely to the
fact that I am learning it in order to take my shingle down and work for
someone else again. The money has been great, but I miss the challenge
of more complex projects, and I feel my skillset is starting to deteriorate.

Again, YMMV.

[Jared]

Thanks to all for your responses.

One last question regarding .Net. What are the chances that MS would
through in a curve ball and start charging the developers a distro fee
for running there program on the .NET framework? This would obviously
hugely degrade the desirability to both the developer and the end
user.
Jared

[Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]]

"Jared" <de*******@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:58**************************@posting.google.c om...

Thanks to all for your responses.

One last question regarding .Net. What are the chances that MS would
through in a curve ball and start charging the developers a distro fee
for running there program on the .NET framework? This would obviously
hugely degrade the desirability to both the developer and the end
user.

I'd say between unlikely and non-existant. It do anyone any good.

[Leon Mayne [MVP]]

Jared wrote:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own?

Depends what the end product and the client base will be:

1) Windows-only desktop apps for any company type:
Stick with .NET. You can just have them installed on the users machines and
run without having to worry about JDK / JVM versions etc.

2) Platform independent desktop apps for any company type:
Java

3) Web applications for large corporations:
Ask what they support first, as they will either have a Windows setup or,
most likely a Java (e.g. Tomcat) setup, so either .NET or Servlets / JSP.

4) Web applications for small companies / single people
PHP / Perl, because they will probably be hosting their site on a cheap
commercial shared server running Linux with something like cPanel.

In the end, I think the answer is to not limit yourself to one technology.
Learn the important ones which will cover you for any eventuality (Any .NET
language, Java & Perl will cover you for most situations).

[Jared]

This is an excellent point. I think you are right. The key is to know
the most powerful and popular technologies well. I've decided to go
with C#.Net and a Java mix depending on my client base. This will give
me a large market share and RAD abilities.

Thanks to all for your input.

[Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola]

Jared,
1. Forget VB6.0 if you want to enter in the world of OOP. You have worked
with non OOP and OOP languages so you may know this exactly.
2. If you like to work with Microsoft products then i will suggest to choose
..Net rather than VB. The reason you might know.
3. .Net has rich API like in Java. Both of these platforms are for the same
purpose. But if you want to develop Platform independent application then go
for Java. Java is rich by APIs and also you will get now Eclipse (opensource
platform) free which gives RAD like VS.Net with debugging and each kind of
facitilty so you can develop faster console app to J2EE apps using Eclipse
(cost: ITS FREE).
And if you want to develop an application that supports multiple languages
like VB.Net, C#, J#, COBOL.NET etc... then go for .Net...
Performance wise,
..Net and Java, both has some of its pros and cons.
But i found that Resources required to start up of the application is more
consumed by Java compared to .Net but as well running time resources
consumed by Java is less than .Net base app. (But for .Net you have to pay a
lot compare to Java)

I hope, this answer satisfy you.
If anything perticular, Please ask...

Regards,
Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola
"Empower yourself...."

"Jared" <de*******@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:58**************************@posting.google.c om...

This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
answers, rather than textbook answers.

Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
have done the following:
- Java (1 year experience)
- Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
programs)
- 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
programming)
- ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
quite good at it.
2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
JBuilder 6
I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Jared

[melajara (melajara]

Hello Jared,

Did you have a look at the latest Eclipse V3 Framework, coupled with their
visual studio designer?

Main advantages are:
Free and extensible IDE, of BEST quality (Erich Gamma and Kent Beck are
behind and IBM is paying ;-)

Competitive GUI designer based on Eclipse plugins , e.g. besides the
Instantiations WindowBuilder(commercial) you have now the Eclipse Visual
Designer project (free), this provides for healthy competition.
If you are concerned by the (relative) unresponsiveness of the Swing GUI,
have a look to the SWT widgets. Eclipse itself is written with SWT and its by
no way slow. Now consider that well written Java app are quite fast. Did you
have a look to JEdit (a GPL programming Editor) ?
And regarding startup time, this was a main concern addressed now by Java SE
5.

Hope that's help

Regards,

Mel (me******@hotmail.com)

"Jared" wrote:

I don't want to make this a .NET or MS vs Java question. I am simply
after a cost effective solution to go with when starting my own
business. I found Java to be very clunky in the interface. I really
enjoyed my year programming in Java, but hated writing Interface code.
Besides my limited experience, which it seems that I would need a lot
more of to create a competitive app, I have never yet seen a Java app
that flows nicely. If this is possible and you don't want to turn this
into a big and unneccessary debate please feel free to email me and
give me some suggestions.

To everyone else that reads this post and is replying, please remember
that this post is intended to help me and others like me understand
what technology has worked for the small or single person business out
there.

Thanks again for everyones response so far.

[Jared]

"Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola" <md*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<eA**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>...
[.......]

Performance wise,
.Net and Java, both has some of its pros and cons.
But i found that Resources required to start up of the application is more
consumed by Java compared to .Net but as well running time resources
consumed by Java is less than .Net base app. (But for .Net you have to pay a
lot compare to Java)

I hope, this answer satisfy you.
If anything perticular, Please ask...

Regards,
Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola
"Empower yourself...."

Thanks Mahesh,

Sorry, but could you elaborate on the performance differences that you
have found between .NET and Java. I am interested in both. What I
understand from what you've said is the initial start up is slowerin
Java, but overall performance is better post startup??????
Thanks!

[OpenBSD_Inquiry]

I am not a developer but have done a some small development work on my
own...hacking together Perl and Linux shell commands to solve a few
Linux problems. I even have one small app online...not the full
application but you can see what I have beewn involved in. Follow the
URL below if you are interested.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/showflash/index.html

I want to move up the system administrative path to a systems
engineering position within the administrative path. I should have
one or more scripting languages under my belt. Although the following
link speaks with regard to Unix/Linux administration you of course
know that to become a more capable admin a development language is
necessary.

http://www.sage.org/pubs/8_jobs/core.mm

I need to know what language to use in the Microsoft programming
domain for system administration. Would I use, C, C++, C#, .Net,...?
Which .Net...what books, etc.

I say Microsoft because I am now trying to use system administrative
tools on the Microsoft platform and being able to administrate, push
out security and better understand what a secure Microsoft system
entails the better defined language for that problem I would think
whould be a Microsoft language.

The sytems may or may not be in a domain, hence they may or may not
have Domain Controllers through which policy is implemented but I
would like to use the shell tools and applications that are included
in the Microsoft Server 2003 and XP Pro systems.
Thanks

[William Main]

You could check out the scripting section on MSDN.COM and TECHNET.COM. There
are lots of really good ADMIN scripts there and some tutorials.

"Op*************@yahoo.com" <op*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:19**************************@posting.google.c om...

I am not a developer but have done a some small development work on my
own...hacking together Perl and Linux shell commands to solve a few
Linux problems. I even have one small app online...not the full
application but you can see what I have beewn involved in. Follow the
URL below if you are interested.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/showflash/index.html

I want to move up the system administrative path to a systems
engineering position within the administrative path. I should have
one or more scripting languages under my belt. Although the following
link speaks with regard to Unix/Linux administration you of course
know that to become a more capable admin a development language is
necessary.

http://www.sage.org/pubs/8_jobs/core.mm

I need to know what language to use in the Microsoft programming
domain for system administration. Would I use, C, C++, C#, .Net,...?
Which .Net...what books, etc.

I say Microsoft because I am now trying to use system administrative
tools on the Microsoft platform and being able to administrate, push
out security and better understand what a secure Microsoft system
entails the better defined language for that problem I would think
whould be a Microsoft language.

The sytems may or may not be in a domain, hence they may or may not
have Domain Controllers through which policy is implemented but I
would like to use the shell tools and applications that are included
in the Microsoft Server 2003 and XP Pro systems.
Thanks