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MSDN Universal subscription changes (level and pricing)

P: n/a

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal subscriber
(and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!? Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will just
buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think about
it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not Team
System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS & TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can only
be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We are
all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes they've
ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to get some
feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been contacted by some
developer website editors wanting to run articles about this issue. MS
better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press on this. They
will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they do not rectify
this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition
MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS).
Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it or raise
the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who has helped MS
make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write to them. Let
them know they are about to alienate the one group that always and
consistently helps them be successful. It is the most ridiculous thing
they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL
CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark

Nov 17 '05 #1
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33 Replies


P: n/a
Isn't VSTS meant for corporate/enterprise level companies? It is not
targeted at small/medium developer markets.

--
Regards,
Nish [VC++ MVP]
http://www.voidnish.com
http://blog.voidnish.com
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!?
Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think
about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS
& TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We are
all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes they've
ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to get some
feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been contacted by
some developer website editors wanting to run articles about this issue.
MS better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press on this.
They will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they do not
rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it
or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who has
helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write to
them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that always
and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most ridiculous
thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL
CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark


Nov 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!?
Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think
about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS
& TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We are
all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes they've
ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to get some
feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been contacted by
some developer website editors wanting to run articles about this issue.
MS better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press on this.
They will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they do not
rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b GClark
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it
or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who has
helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write to
them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that always
and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most ridiculous
thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL
CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark


Nov 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
Just trying to get the word out to as many developers as possible...I
figured a cross-post would be okay in this situation.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.
GClark
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!?
Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think
about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS
& TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We
are all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes
they've ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to
get some feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been
contacted by some developer website editors wanting to run articles about
this issue. MS better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press
on this. They will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they
do not rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark


"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it
or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who
has helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write
to them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that
always and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most
ridiculous thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark



Nov 17 '05 #4

P: n/a

Juan,
I also disagree with your assesment that there is nothing *we* developers
can do about it. The more MS hears feedback from us the better chance we
all have of them re-evaluating there position regarding the MSDN Universal
issue.

Most of us don't check the "microsoft.public.msdn.general" newsgroup. My
target audience for the post was *as many developers as possible*, hence the
cross-post to the main developer newsgroups.

FYI, I have also contacted MS (feedback site and email) and have made some
progress. Alec Cooper, aka "lefty", VSTS Business Manager, is currently
tyring to get TFS included in Universal (some sort of single-user developer
license) because of all the feedback. However, it's not for certain yet and
I'm still fighting for the full Team Suite to be included. We could use as
much help as possible. Alec could use as much help as possible to make the
argument on our behalf. Their's power in numbers.

I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups, the feedback
site, and direct emailing to MS contacts.

Team System MSDN pricing feedback comments:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
GClark

- Can a small group of dedicated people with a good idea change the world?
It's the only thing that ever has!

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!?
Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations? Think
about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation Server
(TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for VSTS
& TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site (Url
below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this. We
are all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest mistakes
they've ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have started to
get some feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've also been
contacted by some developer website editors wanting to run articles about
this issue. MS better wake up soon. They could get some really bad press
on this. They will lose a lot of developer support and confidence if they
do not rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark


"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it
or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who
has helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write
to them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that
always and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most
ridiculous thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark



Nov 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
<sigh>

It's not we can't do anything.
It's that these newsgroups are not where to do it.

These are peer-to-peer newsgroups dedicated to
programmers helping other programmers in the
technical aspects of what we love to do : program.

Anything else is pretty much spam.

Please take your issues to the right forum for them :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

Your points of views will be heard by the right people there.

re:
I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups
I urge anybody reading this *not* to do that.

Please, take your observations on MSDN Subscription pricing
and MSDN to a more appropiate forum, like the one in the link above.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:O1**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Juan,
I also disagree with your assesment that there is nothing *we* developers
can do about it. The more MS hears feedback from us the better chance we
all have of them re-evaluating there position regarding the MSDN Universal
issue.

Most of us don't check the "microsoft.public.msdn.general" newsgroup. My
target audience for the post was *as many developers as possible*, hence
the cross-post to the main developer newsgroups.

FYI, I have also contacted MS (feedback site and email) and have made some
progress. Alec Cooper, aka "lefty", VSTS Business Manager, is currently
tyring to get TFS included in Universal (some sort of single-user
developer license) because of all the feedback. However, it's not for
certain yet and I'm still fighting for the full Team Suite to be included.
We could use as much help as possible. Alec could use as much help as
possible to make the argument on our behalf. Their's power in numbers.

I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups, the feedback
site, and direct emailing to MS contacts.

Team System MSDN pricing feedback comments:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
GClark

- Can a small group of dedicated people with a good idea change the world?
It's the only thing that ever has!

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per user?!?
Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations?
Think about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation
Server (TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for
VSTS & TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site
(Url below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this.
We are all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest
mistakes they've ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have
started to get some feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've
also been contacted by some developer website editors wanting to run
articles about this issue. MS better wake up soon. They could get some
really bad press on this. They will lose a lot of developer support and
confidence if they do not rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark


"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it
or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who
has helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write
to them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that
always and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most
ridiculous thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.

Help us help you!

GClark



Nov 17 '05 #6

P: n/a
<sigh>
<scratch>
<fart>
<grin>

I AM TRYING TO HELP OTHER PROGRAMMERS!!!

Exactly which section over there in the *forums* is the appropriate place to
discuss this matter. I just spent the past half hour looking for the right
spot. I don't see it. There is no MSDN Subscription forum that I saw. I
see a place for VSTS posts, but there's only a couple of posts. There's
barely anything happening in those forums. I'm just not as confident as you
that I would accomplish what I was setting out to do via the forums. I'll
take your word for it that it's the best place, but I just don't see the
traffic over there.

I also disagree that this is spam. This is very important to a lot of us.
These newsgroups are the best place to reach the developers.

As far as reaching MS, the feedback site is the only place I've seen any
relavant posts or responses from MS.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

I guess I'll just go bury my head in the sand. You obviously disagree with
my opinion on this and don't want me to spread the word.

I'm not trying to bash MS. If you think about it, I'm actually trying to
help them.

GClark
<fart again>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
<sigh>

It's not we can't do anything.
It's that these newsgroups are not where to do it.

These are peer-to-peer newsgroups dedicated to
programmers helping other programmers in the
technical aspects of what we love to do : program.

Anything else is pretty much spam.

Please take your issues to the right forum for them :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

Your points of views will be heard by the right people there.

re:
I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups


I urge anybody reading this *not* to do that.

Please, take your observations on MSDN Subscription pricing
and MSDN to a more appropiate forum, like the one in the link above.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:O1**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

Juan,
I also disagree with your assesment that there is nothing *we* developers
can do about it. The more MS hears feedback from us the better chance we
all have of them re-evaluating there position regarding the MSDN
Universal issue.

Most of us don't check the "microsoft.public.msdn.general" newsgroup. My
target audience for the post was *as many developers as possible*, hence
the cross-post to the main developer newsgroups.

FYI, I have also contacted MS (feedback site and email) and have made
some progress. Alec Cooper, aka "lefty", VSTS Business Manager, is
currently tyring to get TFS included in Universal (some sort of
single-user developer license) because of all the feedback. However,
it's not for certain yet and I'm still fighting for the full Team Suite
to be included. We could use as much help as possible. Alec could use as
much help as possible to make the argument on our behalf. Their's power
in numbers.

I urge all concerned to submit comments in the newsgroups, the feedback
site, and direct emailing to MS contacts.

Team System MSDN pricing feedback comments:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
GClark

- Can a small group of dedicated people with a good idea change the
world? It's the only thing that ever has!

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.

Please post your comments about the pricing for MSDN Premier,
VSTS, and anything else relating to Visual Studio at :

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx

If you want to have your points of view heard by the
Microsoft personnel which works on those matters,
that's the best place to post your comments.


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

To Microsoft and fellow MSDN Universal subscribers...
Regarding new MSDN Universal (I mean Premier) price and level changes:

1) Way too expensive for the small and medium developer Universal
subscriber (and some large ones as well). $10,000 - $15,000 per
user?!? Forget it!

2) Do you (MS) honestly believe that the market you are targeting will
just buy this product on good faith? Without our recommendations?
Think about it!

3) How do we write add-ins for Team Suite (VSTS or Team Foundation
Server (TFS)) if we don't have the products?

4) How do we learn how to use Team System for those times we do work in
teams?

5) MS trusts us with developer licenses for SQL, Exchange, etc, but not
Team System or TFS? Just give us a single user developer license for
VSTS & TFS.

6) Leaves a really foul taste in our mouths about the meaning of
"Universal". Bait-and Switch! Feels like a major betrayal.

7) Don't box us into a specific "Role". Most of us wear many hats.

8) Why punish developers for supporting and promoting MS all these many
years? What the hell?

Bottom line...The product will not sale without our help. Our help can
only be provided if we have ACCESS to the full product.

Everyone, please look at all of the comments on the MS feedback site
(Url below). Many developers (large and small) have chimed in on this.
We are all trying to help MS keep from making one of the biggest
mistakes they've ever made. We need everyone's help on this. I have
started to get some feedback from MS, so keep up the pressure. I've
also been contacted by some developer website editors wanting to run
articles about this issue. MS better wake up soon. They could get some
really bad press on this. They will lose a lot of developer support and
confidence if they do not rectify this issue soon.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to
>petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite
>(VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include
>it or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer
>who has helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to
>write to them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group
>that always and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most
>ridiculous thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!
>
> http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
>
>
> MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
> ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!
>
> We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.
>
> Help us help you!
>
> GClark
>



Nov 17 '05 #7

P: n/a

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:ep**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
<sigh>
<scratch>
<fart>
<grin>

I AM TRYING TO HELP OTHER PROGRAMMERS!!!


Well.....this post will certainly be shot at as SPAM.....but, when has that
ever stopped me from trying to help others too?

(PLEASE NOTE THAT THE CURRENT VERSION OF THE SOFTWARE MENTIONED IN THIS POST
IS FREE FOR FORMER CLASSIC VB PROGRAMMERS, AND, AS OVER 50% OF ALL
DEVELOPERS USE VISUAL BASIC AT THEIR JOBS, THIS POSTING IS VALID TO THE
READERS OF THESE NEWSGROUPS.)

I have made no attempts to hide my displeasure at the way Microsoft has
treated the VB6 developers - as you will notice in the Microsoft.public.vb
newsgroup postings.

And, with the current pricing structure of MSDN and rising costs of
Microsoft's desktop software, I truly believe we need a valid alternative to
Microsoft developer tools. Currently, I am looking into REALbasic
(www.REALbasic.com) as just such an alternative.

Now, REALbasic still has some growing to do. Don't expect it to be anything
except REALbasic.

If you are a classic Visual Basic developer (pre-VB.Net), you will find the
interface and syntax very familiar. You will be able to upgrade your VB6
apps better than Microsoft's transition tool to VB.Net. And, the coming
2005 interface (60 days until release) has a much enhanced UI (screenshots
at http://www.realsoftware.com/demo15/).

REALbasic 5.5 is even FREE to former Visual Basic developers and they will
receive a discount on REALbasic 2005 when it gets released in 60 days (or
less). Just sign up here -
http://www.realsoftware.com/realbasic/vb6/index.php - BEFORE APRIL 15, 2005.

Although those reasons are all good enough to at least take a look at
REALbasic, the true value of REALbasic, for developers AND end users, is
freedom of choice with the OS. REALbasic applications are truly
cross-platform and will run on MAC, Linux or Windows machines. This means
that, as prices continue to climb for Microsoft MSDN subscriptions (almost
$10,000 for the top MSDN subscription) Microsoft OSs and Microsoft software
(like $499 for Office 2003 Pro) you and your customers have the option of
choosing a less expensive OS like MAC, a supported (but way less expensive
than XP) Linux OS like Novell's Linux desktop, Red Hat Workstation or even a
FREE OS like one of the hundreds of free Linux distros.

Microsoft has shown that they no longer value (or even listen to) their
customers. They will be the next IBM.....decimating the empire that they
have built by ignoring customer needs and pricing themselves out of Windows
development.

Make no mistake about it, Microsoft IS pricing themselves out of the
software market by pricing the small and mid-sized business out of Windows
development.

Microsoft seems to be forgetting that the ability for small and mid-sized
shops to do their own development is a large part of what has made Microsoft
the largest software company in the world. Its what drew small companies to
Windows - the ability to develop their own relatively inexpensive software
solutions in-house. Not to mention the millions of developers that used
Windows tools to develop and sell their own software.

And, while there are certainly alternatives other than REALbasic (Mono +
Linux, C++ + MAC, Java, Borland's Delphi, etc.) None of them offer the
platform dependence that REALbasic does........nope, not even JAVA.

I humbly suggest you take a look at REALbasic. Even if you don't choose it
as your development platform, at least you know what's out there and the
possibilities for true cross-platform development.

Whatever development platform you choose, may I suggest that it be
cross-platform. Not because Microsoft is big and should be crushed. I'm
not now (nor have ever been) anti-Microsoft. But, I am pro-me and pro-my
customers.

Being pro-me and pro-my customers, I have to make hard decisions to protect
them and me from future harm. One of those decisions is the decision to
begin developing cross-platform solutions for my customer base, so that they
have the freedom to move to a more-affordable OS and more affordable
development platform for their company's specific needs.

For most small businesses, not being on a Microsoft OS is not a problem.
Most, if not all of the software they write is for internal use. So, their
OS and desktop software decisions can be more financially driven. This
means that using Linux (even the MAC OS is cheaper than XP) for a desktop
solution in many small and mid-sized businesses is an easy call.

Their daily task is not to use Microsoft products.....it's to get business
done in a manner that saves time and money while not sacrificing quality.
Microsoft would do well to understand that.

I believe that responsible developers and ISVs owe it to their customers to
give themselves and their customers the option of OS independence. Giving
REALbasic a look might help you towards that goal.

If you know of other options, I would love to check them out as possible
alternatives. Please post them here.

Jim Hubbard

(I will not respond to flames.....although serious questions or debate is
welcomed.)

Nov 17 '05 #8

P: n/a

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I hope you didn't miss any newsgroups that
you intended to get your message... ;-)

We're mostly developers, your peers, in these newsgroups,
and there's nothing we can do about what you expound on.


Except, presumabley, follow the link given and participate in the process
there?

The email was directed at peers, Microsoft customers, to encourage them to
make their views felt on this issue. I think the level of feeling on this
issue is sufficient justification for such a call.

In other words: just 'cos a post complains about something and is sent to a
wide audience, don't make it spam.


Nov 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
news.microsoft.com wrote:
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL
CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!


Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest of us
are just road apples.
Nov 17 '05 #10

P: n/a
re:
Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest
of us are just road apples.
I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... news.microsoft.com wrote:
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL
CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!


Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest
of us are just road apples.

Nov 17 '05 #11

P: n/a


You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them, and
not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus the server
for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's all
there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest
of us are just road apples.


I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
news.microsoft.com wrote:
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!


Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the rest
of us are just road apples.


Nov 17 '05 #12

P: n/a
re:
I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
Give it, and yourself, a rest if you're "too tired".

I think you should open a website, or start a blog,
or do anything you want...on your own dime.

You'd be far more credible that way.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them, and
not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus the
server for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's
all there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.


I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
news.microsoft.com wrote:
>MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
>ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little
now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.



Nov 17 '05 #13

P: n/a

You just have to get the last word, don't you.

I meant that you tire me. You obviously can't comprehend what I (and
others) are saying to you. Why is it that the only ones that can't
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?

"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.

GClark
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
re:
I'm too tired to deal with you right now.


Give it, and yourself, a rest if you're "too tired".

I think you should open a website, or start a blog,
or do anything you want...on your own dime.

You'd be far more credible that way.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...


You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them, and
not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus the
server for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's
all there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b


"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.

I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
news.microsoft.com wrote:
>>MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
>>ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any
more? Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it
is by actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means
little now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.



Nov 17 '05 #14

P: n/a
What doesn't surprise me is your bickering.
It's so typical of trolls.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

You just have to get the last word, don't you.

I meant that you tire me. You obviously can't comprehend what I (and
others) are saying to you. Why is it that the only ones that can't
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?

"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.

GClark
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
re:
I'm too tired to deal with you right now.


Give it, and yourself, a rest if you're "too tired".

I think you should open a website, or start a blog,
or do anything you want...on your own dime.

You'd be far more credible that way.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...


You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them,
and not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus
the server for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's
all there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b


"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
> Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
> rest of us are just road apples.

I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> news.microsoft.com wrote:
>>>MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
>>>ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!
>
> Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any
> more? Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what
> it is by actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means
> little now.
>
> Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
> rest of us are just road apples.



Nov 17 '05 #15

P: n/a
> MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.
While I can certainly understand your frustration, I feel compelled to
remind you that pricing is not a matter of "right" or "wrong." It's called
"supply and demand." In economics, there is a golden price scheme that
assures the maximum amount of profit (which is, after all, why Microsoft,
and you and I are in business). That golden price scheme is arrived at by
evaluating the demand and supply of the product. If the price is too high,
demand goes down, which affects price negatively, and thereby profit, as
supply is not changed. If the price is too low, profit is affected
negatively, as demand is not changed. If supply goes down, and demand
remains the same, price can go up. If the demand goes down, and supply
remains the same, price must go down. The objective is to balance price,
supply and demand so that the most profit is incurrred from sales of the
product.

Microsoft's prices are extremely competitive. Visual Studio.Net is arguably
the most sophisticated (i.e. "demanded") programming software ever created.
I suppose Adobe "should" lower their price for PhotoShop as well? How about
Macromedia DreamWeaver, which costs about 4 times as much as Microsoft
FrontPage?

Or, maybe, instead of complaining about price, which IS undoubtedly a factor
in the real problem of "how do I make more money as a programmer," examine
the aspects of the problem which you DO have control over, figure out a plan
(solution) and implement it, to solve the real problem?

IOW, think of this as an application you're designing. The requirement of
your application is to "make more money as a programmer" or perhaps "Start
making money as a programmer" (depending upon your current status). The
architecture of your application should present a solution to the problem.
Constants include things like the price of your development software.
Variables include all kinds of things which may or may not have a positive
effect on the solution, such as the speed and power of your computer, how
many hours you're willing to put into development, research, etc. And what
development software you use (since you have no control over the prices of
the products). Once you have identified all of the constants and variables,
solve the problem.

When I first decided to learn to program, I had no money, and no computer. I
bought some cheap books on programming, and downloaded a shareware
command-line C compiler from a BBS (dial-up Bulletin Board Service, for
those of you under 25) which worked with the original Kernigan and Ritchie C
language, not the standard, and started writing programs to teach myself. In
other words, I evaluated what was available to me under the existing
circumstances, kept the requirement in mind, and did what was within my
limitations to achieve my goal.

By following that methodolgy, I worked my way up to where I'm at now. I now
have all the tools and technologies I could ever want to do any kind of
project with efficiency. And I make a darn good living doing what I love to
do.

Or, as the old saying goes, "It is better to light one candle, than to curse
the darkness."

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

You only get one "role" upgrade to Team System for Universal Subcribers.
You do not get Team Server either.
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition. It's not right. They're
pulling the rug out from underneath us.

What happens if I want to Test my apps, or maybe even Architect them, and
not just be a Developer. I have to buy the whole damn suite plus the
server for $15,000. It ain't right.

Look at the feedback site, there are many other issues with this. It's
all there for you to read. I'm too tired to deal with you right now.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.


I don't know what the complaint is, Julie,
particularly regarding "big fish" as compared to "road apples".

Microsoft is putting out a brand new product line
( the Express products ) for entry-level developers.

Those will be just $49 each, in a wide variety of flavors :
VB.NET Express, Visual C Express, Visual C++ Express,
Visual J# Express and Visual Web Developer Express.

Then, if you need more power, you can use
VS.NET Standard, which will run $299.

If you need even more power, you can get
VS.NET Professional, at $799 or $549 upgrade.

Only if you need VSTS, do you get into the high-price range.

See http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...21VS2005PR.asp

Even so, if you have MSDN, you get a free upgrade
to MSDN Premium, which gets you VSTS fairly cheaply.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005/

Now, if the issue is that individual developers want to get
VSTS at a very low price, I don't think that's going to happen.

As with everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O6**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
news.microsoft.com wrote:
>MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE
>ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!

Isn't it obvious yet that MS doesn't care about the small fish any more?
Granted, back in the days of Win 3.1, we are what made MS what it is by
actually pushing the OS in our places of work, but that means little
now.

Just look at what MS targets -- they are after the big fish, and the
rest of us are just road apples.



Nov 17 '05 #16

P: n/a
I have to smirk when trolls post.

One troll claims to want to help the community of programmers
who spend substantial time in these newsgroups here, but
when you search Google groups for his previous participations
in these very same newsgroups, the result is that the *sum total*
of his participation has been the trolling posts he's made claiming
to want to help this community. What a laugh!

No record at all of *any* community involvement, of any sort,
other than the self-seeking posts he's made on MSDN/VSTS.

Then, *you* chirp in and, of course, your participation,
although slightly larger than "Mr. Bicker", doesn't quite have
the community-serving participation of *any* MVP, yet all
you can pitifully manage is a broadside at MVPs in general.

You could have, at least, attacked *me*, and not MVPs as a whole.

What a couple of self-serving trolls you both are!

Go ahead. I won't be surprised at your next broadside.

I won't waste any more of my time
answering any reply you or your pal make, either.

It's quite clear what your motivations are.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

<he*@40th.com> wrote in message news:ew*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
g- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:16:33 -0700]:
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?


You do know MVPs get all that you have to pay for, for
free, right? Don't byte the hand that feeds and all that
is a plenty-good reason to do what he's doing.
"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some
sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.


Down boy. He's got as much right to complain about
you as you do about all the dough you don't want to
part with.

You could always say "I'm going to Linux". Lots of
free stuff, that's for sure. Of course, you have
to like to work for free, too, but then that's
for another thread. Become an MVP and you can get
it all for free, too. Then you can be on the other
side and complain about those that complain about...

Nov 17 '05 #17

P: n/a
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I meant that you tire me. You obviously can't comprehend what I (and
others) are saying to you. Why is it that the only ones that can't
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?
I see your point. I don't agree with you, therfore I am not independent.
<BSEG> That makes about as much sense as the rest of your rant.

The problem here is that you rant a lot, and provide no facts to back up
your rant. Clearly the devil is in the details - specifically how many
customers, new or old, will or won't buy a product at a price that you in
your infinite wisdom deem excessive. You have one idea, MS has another.

But it hardly matters because of ugly fact of life number 1: You don't get
to determine the price of products that you buy. Of course, you can
influence the determination by voting with your wallet.

And here is ugly fact of life number 2: No for-profit entity in the entire
country cares more about its customers than turning a profit. If that were
the case, for example, hospitals would offer their services for free to all
clients, all the time. QED.
"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that?
These forums are for peer support. Ask for some, provide some or stay the
heck out of the way.
Is there some sort of fee for these newsgroups now?
No there isn't.
I wouldn't be surprised.


I am not surprised at your lack of surprise.

Regards,
Will
Nov 17 '05 #18

P: n/a
<he*@40th.com> wrote in message news:ew*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
You do know MVPs get all that you have to pay for, for
free, right?


Not everything. I don't know that it has been decided yet what "we" will or
won't get.

Regards,
Will
Nov 17 '05 #19

P: n/a
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
MSDN Universal is changing it's definition.


Put up or shut-up, why don't you?

In other words, cite some claim that they have made that supports your
argument. Simply repeating a point does not make it so. Nor does your
personal spin on a matter.

Regards,
Will
Nov 17 '05 #20

P: n/a

<he*@40th.com> wrote in message news:ew*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
g- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:16:33 -0700]:
understand the points we are making the so-called MVP's. I thought MVP's
were independent of Microsoft. Is that not the case?


You do know MVPs get all that you have to pay for, for
free, right? Don't byte the hand that feeds and all that
is a plenty-good reason to do what he's doing.
"On my own dime..", What the hell do you mean by that? Is there some
sort
of fee for these newsgroups now? I wouldn't be surprised.


Down boy. He's got as much right to complain about
you as you do about all the dough you don't want to
part with.

You could always say "I'm going to Linux". Lots of
free stuff, that's for sure. Of course, you have
to like to work for free, too


Not to really force the issue, but you can develop with REALbasic from
scratch and sell your apps just fine.

Steer clear of open source though... For learning, it's great. As a
business model....it's a failure.

Jim Hubbard
Nov 17 '05 #21

P: n/a

The whole point of the post was to make people aware of what MS has proposed
with the new pricing for VSTS and MSDN.

While it's true I haven't participated in newsgroup discussions much the
past few years, I used to participate a lot more around the time that .Net
was first released and previous to that. I've had at least 5 different
email addresses since then, so I'm not sure which one to look up, but you
can try some that contain gignet, appliedtel, britefutures, altavest,
hotmail, etc. However, trying to discredit me because I don't spend all my
time posting in newsgroups is pretty pathetic. I work for a living and like
most only use the newsgroups when I have a problem I need help with. I have
also helped others while I was waiting for my problem to be addressed. My
ambition in life is not to become an MVP. I'm sure your help is valued, but
the attacks are not. What personally set me off was the <sigh> that you did
in your post. I tried to reply with some humor, but you obviously didn't
get it. Try to enjoy life more Juan. Maybe you are spending too much time
in these newsgroups.

I've already admitted several times that we developers have been spoiled (up
until now). However, that has been a very advantageous thing for MS to do.
It has helped them in ways I don't think the MVP's quite understand. We
developers are the ones who have always stood up against MS-bashers. We
have been consistent in our support. I've always recommended MS products
to the various companies I've done work for over the past 20 years. I'm not
putting down the products at all. I'm questioning the price and level
changes. I would like to have the products to use and test, so that I can
recommend them to the companies I work for. I can't recommend something
that I haven't used. That is one of the ways in which SQL, Exchange, and a
few other products were able to be so successful and grab market share.
Word of mouth by those of us who had access to the products via MSDN
Universal played a part in getting companies to adopt those MS products. I
personally have been responsible for recommending MS products to at least 50
companies (small and mid-sized and even 2 hospitals). Those companies may
not have purchased MS products if I hadn't recommended them. Eveyone of
them was wary of lock-in and all the bad press MS received. I was able to
assure them otherwise. A handful of those companies had mainframe setups
that were costing them $100k-$1m. I was able to save them a tremendous
amount of money by switching to MS. And, I was able to show them how easy
it was to develop in-house programs based on MS tools. I won't be able to
that for the Team System line up if I don't have access to it.

I always believed in MS precisely because, as a developer, I was given
access to all the top-end products via MSDN Universal. It's a form of
grass-roots marketing. All I'm asking is for MS to continue to "Help me
Help them". I'm not asking for anything for free. I've paid an annual
$2100-$25000 for MSDN Universal for around 10 years. I'm not asking for
fully licensed versions, just single-user developer licenses, like other
products in Universal. I understand that the difference between VSTS and
other products is that I may actually be able to use VSTS for my daily work.
However, just make a VSTS+TFS Single User version available. We need to
know how to use the product for those times when we work on teams. We will
also be able to recommend full VSTS versions in those situations as well.

As I stated, all these comments (and many more) have been made on the
feedback site. These posts have had some impact, so it's not a waste of
time. I have received email from Alec Cooper "lefty", VSTS Business
Manager, in part stating the following:

Understood. We are listening and I appreciate you taking your time to tell
us your thoughts. We've done a bad job of communicating it thus far, look
for us to improve and clarify the story. I'm 100% confident that when we do
people will feel differently.
I'm trying to work with the licensing people to get TFS into the
subscriptions under a slightly modified license - for evaluation and demo
rather than putting a time bombed or trial version. That way, people can
play with it all they like, demo it etc before making the jump.
- Alec Cooper
<<<

The way Alec responded to all of our concerns is much better than the
attacks that I've received from the MVP's. It's not quite what I'm asking
for, but at least we've gotten their attention. It wouldn't have happened
if so many had not participated in the feedback. I was just trying to get
more to participate, so that MS would know that there are lots of us
concerned about this.

This is an important issue, and the developers are the ones who are
affected. That is why I chose to post the announcement in these newsgroups.
I wanted to reach as many as possible. There are opportunities to make a
difference. My posts have directed people to make comments on the feedback
site. For some reason, a bunch of MVP people have decided to attack me
("troll", etc). This is unfortunate.

I just wanted developers to be aware that these products we've all been
excited about for the past year or so are now going to be out of reach for
most of us. If they feel as I do or otherwise, make your feelings known via
the feedback site. MVP's don't want us to clutter their precious newsgroups
with matters such as this. Fine. All I did was make a cross-post
announcement, it was Juan who started the mess (then followed by other
MVP's). This will hopefully be my last post on this subject to the
newsgroups. You win Juan. Don't be such a lemming.

MS VSTS Feedback site:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark
Nov 17 '05 #22

P: n/a

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

The whole point of the post was to make people aware of what MS has
proposed with the new pricing for VSTS and MSDN.

While it's true I haven't participated in newsgroup discussions much the
past few years, I used to participate a lot more around the time that .Net
was first released and previous to that. I've had at least 5 different
email addresses since then, so I'm not sure which one to look up, but you
can try some that contain gignet, appliedtel, britefutures, altavest,
hotmail, etc. However, trying to discredit me because I don't spend all
my time posting in newsgroups is pretty pathetic. I work for a living and
like most only use the newsgroups when I have a problem I need help with.
I have also helped others while I was waiting for my problem to be
addressed. My ambition in life is not to become an MVP. I'm sure your
help is valued, but the attacks are not. What personally set me off was
the <sigh> that you did in your post. I tried to reply with some humor,
but you obviously didn't get it. Try to enjoy life more Juan. Maybe you
are spending too much time in these newsgroups.

I've already admitted several times that we developers have been spoiled
(up until now). However, that has been a very advantageous thing for MS
to do. It has helped them in ways I don't think the MVP's quite
understand. We developers are the ones who have always stood up against
MS-bashers. We have been consistent in our support. I've always
recommended MS products to the various companies I've done work for over
the past 20 years. I'm not putting down the products at all. I'm
questioning the price and level changes. I would like to have the
products to use and test, so that I can recommend them to the companies I
work for. I can't recommend something that I haven't used. That is one
of the ways in which SQL, Exchange, and a few other products were able to
be so successful and grab market share. Word of mouth by those of us who
had access to the products via MSDN Universal played a part in getting
companies to adopt those MS products. I personally have been responsible
for recommending MS products to at least 50 companies (small and mid-sized
and even 2 hospitals). Those companies may not have purchased MS products
if I hadn't recommended them. Eveyone of them was wary of lock-in and all
the bad press MS received. I was able to assure them otherwise. A
handful of those companies had mainframe setups that were costing them
$100k-$1m. I was able to save them a tremendous amount of money by
switching to MS. And, I was able to show them how easy it was to develop
in-house programs based on MS tools. I won't be able to that for the Team
System line up if I don't have access to it.

I always believed in MS precisely because, as a developer, I was given
access to all the top-end products via MSDN Universal. It's a form of
grass-roots marketing. All I'm asking is for MS to continue to "Help me
Help them". I'm not asking for anything for free. I've paid an annual
$2100-$25000 for MSDN Universal for around 10 years. I'm not asking for
fully licensed versions, just single-user developer licenses, like other
products in Universal. I understand that the difference between VSTS and
other products is that I may actually be able to use VSTS for my daily
work. However, just make a VSTS+TFS Single User version available. We
need to know how to use the product for those times when we work on teams.
We will also be able to recommend full VSTS versions in those situations
as well.

As I stated, all these comments (and many more) have been made on the
feedback site. These posts have had some impact, so it's not a waste of
time. I have received email from Alec Cooper "lefty", VSTS Business
Manager, in part stating the following:

Understood. We are listening and I appreciate you taking your time to
tell us your thoughts. We've done a bad job of communicating it thus far,
look for us to improve and clarify the story. I'm 100% confident that
when we do people will feel differently.
I'm trying to work with the licensing people to get TFS into the
subscriptions under a slightly modified license - for evaluation and demo
rather than putting a time bombed or trial version. That way, people can
play with it all they like, demo it etc before making the jump.
- Alec Cooper
<<<

The way Alec responded to all of our concerns is much better than the
attacks that I've received from the MVP's. It's not quite what I'm asking
for, but at least we've gotten their attention. It wouldn't have happened
if so many had not participated in the feedback. I was just trying to get
more to participate, so that MS would know that there are lots of us
concerned about this.

This is an important issue, and the developers are the ones who are
affected. That is why I chose to post the announcement in these
newsgroups. I wanted to reach as many as possible. There are
opportunities to make a difference. My posts have directed people to make
comments on the feedback site. For some reason, a bunch of MVP people
have decided to attack me ("troll", etc). This is unfortunate.

I just wanted developers to be aware that these products we've all been
excited about for the past year or so are now going to be out of reach for
most of us. If they feel as I do or otherwise, make your feelings known
via the feedback site. MVP's don't want us to clutter their precious
newsgroups with matters such as this. Fine. All I did was make a
cross-post announcement, it was Juan who started the mess (then followed
by other MVP's). This will hopefully be my last post on this subject to
the newsgroups. You win Juan. Don't be such a lemming.

MS VSTS Feedback site:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark


G,

Don't waste your time responding to the MVP trolls. They are not
interested in honest debate about the issues affecting the vast majority of
Microsoft's programmers.

If someone posts a valid concern, question or comment be sure to
continue to respond quickly just as you have done in the past. There are
those who have honest questions and welcome open discussions about these
subjects. and that is where we may get something done to address the issues
facing us because of Microsoft's new strategies.

As for the trolls that are attacking you.....simply ignore the posts.
They are not genuinely interested in your point of view or in looking at
anything other than what Microsoft tells them is best for them. They only
want to derail the discussion by attacking you personally.

Restrict your posts to thinking posters and we all may get more
understanding of the issues involved and just where Microsoft is going wrong
and what we can do to protect ourselves and our customers.

Thanks for the posts and the willingness to post your concerns and
thoughts. I have enjoyed reading your point of view and look forward to
further posts from you on the subject.

Jim Hubbard
Nov 17 '05 #23

P: n/a

I was starting to feel a little beat up. I'm trying to keep a level head
about this, because it gets me off point if I don't.

I do appreciate the help that the MVP's provide for programming issues in
these newsgroups. I consider this issue to be a "programming" issue as
well. VSTS can make us better programmers and promote MS at the same time.
It's win-win to include it (single developer version) in Universal. It's
lose-lose to not include it. It's that simple.

I have a feeling some of these MVP's haven't been in the industry for very
long (< 5 years) and didn't experience the whole growth of PC's, the
Internet, Windows, Microsoft, VB, C++, etc and all the dynamics that got us
to where were at now. Remember back before Win95 came out. Apple
(Macintosh) had a chance to own the world as MS does now. However, Apple
decided to keep the prices high and the system closed (hardware and API).
MS has been so successful because they kept prices low and provide access to
their API to developers. We developers were able to capitalize on that. It
was a huge part of making MS so prominent. Because we could make programs
for MS so easily and cheaply, we all used and recommended MS. Apple was
relegated to high-end graphics and publishing (not so much any more). I
feel I'm just trying to help MS realize the road they're on has been
traveled by others...not so successfully. If the ride has to end, then it
has to end. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to try to keep it from
ending by voicing an opinion on the matter.

I was young once, cocky, and thought I knew everything as well, so I'll just
try to keep that in mind. Oh, how naive I really was. All those cliche's
are so true. "The older you get the less you know." "The older I get the
better I used to be.", "The older I get the smarter my parents are.", etc,
etc, etc.

MS VSTS Feedback site:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark
"Jim Hubbard" <re***@groups.please> wrote in message
news:qv********************@giganews.com...

"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

The whole point of the post was to make people aware of what MS has
proposed with the new pricing for VSTS and MSDN.

While it's true I haven't participated in newsgroup discussions much the
past few years, I used to participate a lot more around the time that
.Net was first released and previous to that. I've had at least 5
different email addresses since then, so I'm not sure which one to look
up, but you can try some that contain gignet, appliedtel, britefutures,
altavest, hotmail, etc. However, trying to discredit me because I don't
spend all my time posting in newsgroups is pretty pathetic. I work for a
living and like most only use the newsgroups when I have a problem I need
help with. I have also helped others while I was waiting for my problem
to be addressed. My ambition in life is not to become an MVP. I'm sure
your help is valued, but the attacks are not. What personally set me off
was the <sigh> that you did in your post. I tried to reply with some
humor, but you obviously didn't get it. Try to enjoy life more Juan.
Maybe you are spending too much time in these newsgroups.

I've already admitted several times that we developers have been spoiled
(up until now). However, that has been a very advantageous thing for MS
to do. It has helped them in ways I don't think the MVP's quite
understand. We developers are the ones who have always stood up against
MS-bashers. We have been consistent in our support. I've always
recommended MS products to the various companies I've done work for over
the past 20 years. I'm not putting down the products at all. I'm
questioning the price and level changes. I would like to have the
products to use and test, so that I can recommend them to the companies I
work for. I can't recommend something that I haven't used. That is one
of the ways in which SQL, Exchange, and a few other products were able to
be so successful and grab market share. Word of mouth by those of us who
had access to the products via MSDN Universal played a part in getting
companies to adopt those MS products. I personally have been responsible
for recommending MS products to at least 50 companies (small and
mid-sized and even 2 hospitals). Those companies may not have purchased
MS products if I hadn't recommended them. Eveyone of them was wary of
lock-in and all the bad press MS received. I was able to assure them
otherwise. A handful of those companies had mainframe setups that were
costing them $100k-$1m. I was able to save them a tremendous amount of
money by switching to MS. And, I was able to show them how easy it was
to develop in-house programs based on MS tools. I won't be able to that
for the Team System line up if I don't have access to it.

I always believed in MS precisely because, as a developer, I was given
access to all the top-end products via MSDN Universal. It's a form of
grass-roots marketing. All I'm asking is for MS to continue to "Help me
Help them". I'm not asking for anything for free. I've paid an annual
$2100-$25000 for MSDN Universal for around 10 years. I'm not asking for
fully licensed versions, just single-user developer licenses, like other
products in Universal. I understand that the difference between VSTS and
other products is that I may actually be able to use VSTS for my daily
work. However, just make a VSTS+TFS Single User version available. We
need to know how to use the product for those times when we work on
teams. We will also be able to recommend full VSTS versions in those
situations as well.

As I stated, all these comments (and many more) have been made on the
feedback site. These posts have had some impact, so it's not a waste of
time. I have received email from Alec Cooper "lefty", VSTS Business
Manager, in part stating the following:
>

Understood. We are listening and I appreciate you taking your time to
tell us your thoughts. We've done a bad job of communicating it thus
far, look for us to improve and clarify the story. I'm 100% confident
that when we do people will feel differently.
I'm trying to work with the licensing people to get TFS into the
subscriptions under a slightly modified license - for evaluation and demo
rather than putting a time bombed or trial version. That way, people can
play with it all they like, demo it etc before making the jump.
- Alec Cooper
<<<

The way Alec responded to all of our concerns is much better than the
attacks that I've received from the MVP's. It's not quite what I'm
asking for, but at least we've gotten their attention. It wouldn't have
happened if so many had not participated in the feedback. I was just
trying to get more to participate, so that MS would know that there are
lots of us concerned about this.

This is an important issue, and the developers are the ones who are
affected. That is why I chose to post the announcement in these
newsgroups. I wanted to reach as many as possible. There are
opportunities to make a difference. My posts have directed people to
make comments on the feedback site. For some reason, a bunch of MVP
people have decided to attack me ("troll", etc). This is unfortunate.

I just wanted developers to be aware that these products we've all been
excited about for the past year or so are now going to be out of reach
for most of us. If they feel as I do or otherwise, make your feelings
known via the feedback site. MVP's don't want us to clutter their
precious newsgroups with matters such as this. Fine. All I did was make
a cross-post announcement, it was Juan who started the mess (then
followed by other MVP's). This will hopefully be my last post on this
subject to the newsgroups. You win Juan. Don't be such a lemming.

MS VSTS Feedback site:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b

GClark


G,

Don't waste your time responding to the MVP trolls. They are not
interested in honest debate about the issues affecting the vast majority
of Microsoft's programmers.

If someone posts a valid concern, question or comment be sure to
continue to respond quickly just as you have done in the past. There are
those who have honest questions and welcome open discussions about these
subjects. and that is where we may get something done to address the
issues facing us because of Microsoft's new strategies.

As for the trolls that are attacking you.....simply ignore the posts.
They are not genuinely interested in your point of view or in looking at
anything other than what Microsoft tells them is best for them. They only
want to derail the discussion by attacking you personally.

Restrict your posts to thinking posters and we all may get more
understanding of the issues involved and just where Microsoft is going
wrong and what we can do to protect ourselves and our customers.

Thanks for the posts and the willingness to post your concerns and
thoughts. I have enjoyed reading your point of view and look forward to
further posts from you on the subject.

Jim Hubbard

Nov 17 '05 #24

P: n/a
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:On****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I have a feeling some of these MVP's haven't been in the industry for very
long (< 5 years) and didn't experience the whole growth of PC's, the
Internet, Windows, Microsoft, VB, C++, etc and all the dynamics that got
us to where were at now.
That's as correct as the rest of your argument. MVPs are a lot grayer and
older than most who post here. Personally I have been at this "stuff" since
'73 and have been getting paid for it since '77.
I was young once, cocky,
I would have guessed that <g>
and thought I knew everything as well,


I never would have guessed that.

I do however remember the days when C6 was _all_Microsoft had to offer in
the way of development tools. Then I _much_ preferred the Borland tools
which were far superior. To my eyes, it looked as though not a lot of
resources were devoted to the developer tools. More than a decade later, it
does appear that sufficient resources are now being brought to bear. It is
also appears to me that the amount per developer customer that the tools
fetch the company is also up. Coincidence? You can decide for yourself.

Regards,
Will
Nov 17 '05 #25

P: n/a
I knew I was setting myself up when I said that MVP's might be younger. I
just can't win with you guys. Dammit!

BTW - Didn't QuickC exist before C6? Not sure though. And I seem to
remember an early version of MASM around that same time as well.

GClark

"William DePalo [MVP VC++]" <wi***********@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:On****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I have a feeling some of these MVP's haven't been in the industry for
very long (< 5 years) and didn't experience the whole growth of PC's, the
Internet, Windows, Microsoft, VB, C++, etc and all the dynamics that got
us to where were at now.


That's as correct as the rest of your argument. MVPs are a lot grayer and
older than most who post here. Personally I have been at this "stuff"
since '73 and have been getting paid for it since '77.
I was young once, cocky,


I would have guessed that <g>
and thought I knew everything as well,


I never would have guessed that.

I do however remember the days when C6 was _all_Microsoft had to offer in
the way of development tools. Then I _much_ preferred the Borland tools
which were far superior. To my eyes, it looked as though not a lot of
resources were devoted to the developer tools. More than a decade later,
it does appear that sufficient resources are now being brought to bear. It
is also appears to me that the amount per developer customer that the
tools fetch the company is also up. Coincidence? You can decide for
yourself.

Regards,
Will

Nov 17 '05 #26

P: n/a
"news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:OO**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
BTW - Didn't QuickC exist before C6? Not sure though.
Good question for which I don't have an answer. Of the MS-shop clients
(international banks in NYC) I had then, none used Quick C or Quick C for
Windows.
And I seem to remember an early version of MASM around that same time as
well.


Yup, it shared the same awful (by comparison to Borland's IDE) "Programmer's
Workbench" as C6 or C7.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was until VB caught on and later
Visual C++ 1.0 that there was any move in the big house to do for developer
tools what they did for end users with Windows.

Regards,
Will
Nov 17 '05 #27

P: n/a
> I could be wrong but I don't think it was until VB caught on and later
Visual C++ 1.0 that there was any move in the big house to do for
developer tools what they did for end users with Windows.
I think that is spot on. VB changed everything. It gave access,
customization (vbx controls), and affordability to everyone. I'm trying to
think of VSTS in the same vain. The more developers that have access to
good tools, the better the software produced will be, and I believe the
better off MS will be. I don't think it will be as big as VB was, but it
could be significant if given a chance. It's a win for MS, and a win for
developers to have access to those tools.

GClark
"William DePalo [MVP VC++]" <wi***********@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:em**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... "news.microsoft.com" <gr************@altavest.com> wrote in message
news:OO**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
BTW - Didn't QuickC exist before C6? Not sure though.


Good question for which I don't have an answer. Of the MS-shop clients
(international banks in NYC) I had then, none used Quick C or Quick C for
Windows.
And I seem to remember an early version of MASM around that same time as
well.


Yup, it shared the same awful (by comparison to Borland's IDE)
"Programmer's Workbench" as C6 or C7.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was until VB caught on and later
Visual C++ 1.0 that there was any move in the big house to do for
developer tools what they did for end users with Windows.

Regards,
Will

Nov 17 '05 #28

P: n/a
JTL- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:14:28 -0400]:
I have to smirk when trolls post.
One troll claims .... What a laugh!
No record at all of *any* community involvement...
Then, *you* chirp in and, of course...all
you can pitifully manage is a broadside at MVPs in general.
You could have, at least, attacked *me*, and not MVPs as a whole.
What a couple of self-serving trolls you both are!
Go ahead. I won't be surprised at your next broadside.
I won't waste any more of my time
answering any reply you or your pal make, either.
It's quite clear what your motivations are.


Do you always want to see conspiracies, or
everybody's out to get you, or you're always
right and everyone else who thinks better is
a troll? My, there must have been a recent
pilgrimage to Mecca, because you are still
100% indoctrinated, and self-important enough
to rank and rate others by your own scale. If
you find any factual errors in what I've written,
I suggest you argue with those, and leave the
grassy knoll out.

--
40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
iPlay : the ultimate audio player for PPCs
mp3,mp4,m4a,aac,ogg,flac,wav,play & record
parametric eq, xfeed, reverb: all on a ppc
Nov 17 '05 #29

P: n/a
g- [Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:53:41 -0700]:
BTW - Didn't QuickC exist before C6? Not sure though. And I seem to
QC came with, I think it was, C5, and also separately.
Early 1988 or around there. From what I remember, it
was simply a fast, non-optimizing compiler -- no
threaded-interpreted byte code like the early VB compiler.
It had to compete somehow with TurboC/BC, and QC was
MS's attempt in the compile-time speed department.
remember an early version of MASM around that same time as well.


The MS OSes used to come with MASM included right on the
5.25" disk pack, back in the DOS 2.x days (1983 or so).
debug was the debugger. CV came with C4 (I think that was
the first compiler version MS sold, licensed from Lattice).
There was another debugger from MS in between debug and CV,
but I can't recall its name -- maybe symdeb. MASM didn't
get CV until later, well after the C compiler got it.
Sidebar: After 20 years, and all the resources available,
you'd think there'd be better stuff available today.

--
40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
iPlay : the ultimate audio player for PPCs
mp3,mp4,m4a,aac,ogg,flac,wav,play & record
parametric eq, xfeed, reverb: all on a ppc
Nov 17 '05 #30

P: n/a
First, I'd like to thank everyone for participating in this discussion.
Second, It looks like we've made some progress; not everything we asked for,
but it is something.

Thank you to the supporters and even those that were opposed. The
opposition helped make this discussion even larger and more noticed. Thank
you MVP's for blindly following whatever MS wants you to. You unwittingly
added value to the discussion even though that wasn't your purpose in some
cases...Just kidding, thank you, really! When some of you MVP's weren't
just bashing us, you did have some good points. Ours were better, though<g>

And, Thank You Alec Cooper for hearing us! We will continue to give you
feedback in hopes of coming to a good resolution (compromise) for everyone.

Here is a recent post from the feedback site by Alec Cooper, VSTS Business
Manager, al******@microsoft.com:

I just wanted to post that I have gotten a number of emails from customers
and I really appreciate people taking the time to do that. I'm also sorry I
haven't yet replied to them all (MINA, I have your mail & I will reply).
I've been trying to solve a few of the problems you all have been pointing
out. I think I have figured out a few things we can/need to do better in
this. First, we have done a poor job explaining all of the aspects of this.
I do apologize for this. An example: I got an email stating displeasure at
having to buy the role products to use Team Foundation. This isn't true, you
can use Team Foundation outside of the role products, simply by buying a CAL
and the server. The Team explorer software can be used as a standalone
client. So what we haven't done ( and what I've been working on) is a better
site that explains in detail the features and the scenarios which I think
will help ease at least some of the concerns - I think of the mails that I
have been sent, 25% have been caused by our poorly explaining the situation,
25% regarding Team Foundation and 50% generally po'd about the pricing. Look
for this in a couple of weeks. One of the things that will get addressed in
more detail is how different the editions will be in 2005 versus 2003. Pro
is a much more robust tool, more like EA 2003 than Pro 2003. Another is how
to get developer tools through all the partner programs - not just empower,
but all of the programs (http://partner.microsoft.com/). So regarding the
Team Foundation bit, this has been really good feedback; I think this is a
good example of where developers provide some feedback to Microsoft and
Microsoft does something about it. I think we need to figure out a way to
get this into subscriptions for developers to evaluate, demo etc -
essentially the way we do with other servers, without sticking some kind of
time-bombed bits in there. I am open to suggestions on how to do this, I
would love to figure out a way to do this so customers are happy with it. I
think people understand the issue, let's try to solve this one together. On
the general pricing thing, we are going to announce in relatively short
order aggressive pricing to get exisiting subscribers the suite. We've done
extensive analysis of the lifecycle tools market and I can say with great
certainty that we are providing these tools at substantially lower entry
points than the competition - you are getting a ton more in the
developer/architect/test products than today. But yes, we need to get the
suite to our core set of developers, we're going to create good pricing to
do so. Again, I apologize for not having answered some of the mail yet, I
will do so. again my email address is al******@microsoft.com, I am very
interested in the feedback. - Alec Cooper
<<

While it doesn't appear that the Suite is going to be included in Universal
(Premium), they do seem to be getting the message that we need access to it.
I hope the "aggressive" pricing for the Suite is very reasonable (<=$500).
Also, it looks like there may be some version of Team Foundation Server
included. At this point, we're all going to have to wait and see what the
landscape looks like in a few weeks when they come out with the revised
pricing and product list. I, for one, will be eagerly awaiting the
announcement. I'll hold back any further judgement until then.

MS Feedback link on this issue:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/produc...0-78ad43686b3b
Again, thanks to all for helping to make MS notice this issue!

GClark

- Can a small group of dedicated people with a good idea change the world?
It's the only thing that ever has!

Nov 17 '05 #31

P: n/a
That's great news! I'm really glad that Microsoft is listening to their
customers concerning the subscription issue.

Now, if we can just get their help with the VB6 transistion issues......

Jim Hubbard
Nov 17 '05 #32

P: n/a
Jim,
That's great news! I'm really glad that Microsoft is listening to their
customers concerning the subscription issue.


Microsoft has in my opinion always listened to their customers.

It is not an Open Source company, they need to earn money by making what
their customers want.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #33

P: n/a
In article news:<Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, wrote:
CV came with C4 (I think that was the first compiler version
MS sold, licensed from Lattice).
My, that seems a looong time ago.

IIRC MSC4 was the first C compiler that Microsoft *didn't* licence
from Lattice. I remember persuading my client at the time that the
new PC they were going to buy for me should have a colour screen
to make CV easier to use ... the first colour screen in the
office, but they pretty soon became standard!
Sidebar: After 20 years, and all the resources available,
you'd think there'd be better stuff available today.


The tools we have today generally *are* better ... but most of the
effort seems to have gone into new tools to solve new problems
rather than better tools to solve old problems more easily. that's
understandable, I suppose, but one might wish that a little more
resource had gone into improving the old stuff ...

NuMega's Soft-Ice was a truly remarkable debugger -- especially
the early version that debugged DOS apps using the V86 mode of a
'386 CPU. Some projects I've worked on would not have been
possible without that tool (a $386 piece of software that replaced
a hardware ICE costing £4000). Shame CompuWare bought NuMega and
effectively killed everything they did.

Cheers,
Daniel.

Nov 17 '05 #34

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