Non-Deterministic Schemas

[rox.scott]

The following article says the .NET SOM will not allow what it calls
"non-deterministic" schemas
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...sticschema.asp

** Is this a bug in the SOM or in the schema ? **

Is it something that will be resolved in a future release?

Actually, it is not my schema, but one that has been given to me by an
international body, and validates on many different parsers. So what do I do
here, when the .NET parser tells me "Content model must be deterministic"?

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

Interesting question: is this a bug in the SOM or the Schema...

what schema?

You didn't post any part of a schema.

You say that the schema came from an international body. Can you contact
them about the fact that their schema won't parse on .NET?
The fact is that a schema is a structure that is used to validate an XML
file using basic rules. In many cases, it is possible to represent the
rules with more than one schema. In other words, it may be possible for the
schema to be re-coded so that it will work with the Microsoft SOM.

Or, perhaps not.

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a schema is interoperability.
If the schema that is published won't work with the largest commercial
development platform on the planet, then the international body didn't
achieve their goal. If you point out that minor changes, made early, using
the XML versioning standard, may be able to repair the problem, then you may
get some traction.

Otherwise, I'd suggest that you may want to get about three-dozen instance
documents, run them through XSD.EXE to generate some schemas, and then, by
hand, work out a schema that will work in .NET.

If you simply cannot get one to work, then read the XML as a well-formed
document, and parse it yourself... hopefully into a format that .NET *can*
read.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"rox.scott" <ro******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0C**********************************@microsof t.com...

The following article says the .NET SOM will not allow what it calls
"non-deterministic" schemas:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...sticschema.asp
** Is this a bug in the SOM or in the schema ? **

Is it something that will be resolved in a future release?

Actually, it is not my schema, but one that has been given to me by an
international body, and validates on many different parsers. So what do I do here, when the .NET parser tells me "Content model must be deterministic"?

[rox.scott]

> Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a schema is interoperability.

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a platform is functionality.

Hence, my question is ... are the limitations of the Microsoft SOM (as
described in the MSDN article -- i don't need to post my schema here) valid?
or not?

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

Are the limitations valid?

What an odd question.

By the standard of the developers of the SOM, the limitations are valid.
By the standard of the developers of a competing parser that doesn't have
that limitation, they are not valid.
The W3C standard doesn't pick one side or the other, AFAIK.

So... what standard are you measuring with? The one that says 'yes,' the
one that says 'no,' or the one that says 'maybe?'

Who cares!

The international body failed to meet their goals. You are far more likely
to get them to change the schema than you are to get MS to change the SOM.

Pick your battles.

Reread my previous post for a list of suggestions on how to work around this
problem.
--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"rox.scott" <ro******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:59**********************************@microsof t.com...

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a schema is

interoperability.
Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a platform is functionality.

Hence, my question is ... are the limitations of the Microsoft SOM (as
described in the MSDN article -- i don't need to post my schema here) valid? or not?

[rox.scott]

I am not sure why this post has incurred such an emotional response -- I'll
try to restate the question again in plain English to avoid further scourge...

Does Microsoft have plans to allow "non-deterministic" schemas in a future
release?

--scott

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" wrote:

Are the limitations valid?

What an odd question.

By the standard of the developers of the SOM, the limitations are valid.
By the standard of the developers of a competing parser that doesn't have
that limitation, they are not valid.
The W3C standard doesn't pick one side or the other, AFAIK.

So... what standard are you measuring with? The one that says 'yes,' the
one that says 'no,' or the one that says 'maybe?'

Who cares!

The international body failed to meet their goals. You are far more likely
to get them to change the schema than you are to get MS to change the SOM.

Pick your battles.

Reread my previous post for a list of suggestions on how to work around this
problem.
--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"rox.scott" <ro******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:59**********************************@microsof t.com...

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a schema is

interoperability.

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a platform is functionality.

Hence, my question is ... are the limitations of the Microsoft SOM (as
described in the MSDN article -- i don't need to post my schema here)

valid?

or not?

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

mono has an implementation of the XML reader that will support
non-deterministic schema and they are working on a schema validator that is
compliant with RELAX NG, which, from what I've heard, supports many of the
non-deterministic constraints.

I have not dug through .Net 2.0 enough to know if non-deterministic schema
are supported. I have not seen any public announcement either way. Perhaps
if you ask on the beta forums, you will get an answer that is specific to
the new version of the framework.

I can say this:
Microsoft's XML implementation is W3C compliant.
I hope this helps,

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"rox.scott" <ro******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:10**********************************@microsof t.com...

I am not sure why this post has incurred such an emotional response -- I'll try to restate the question again in plain English to avoid further scourge...
Does Microsoft have plans to allow "non-deterministic" schemas in a future
release?

--scott

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" wrote:

Are the limitations valid?

What an odd question.

By the standard of the developers of the SOM, the limitations are valid.
By the standard of the developers of a competing parser that doesn't have that limitation, they are not valid.
The W3C standard doesn't pick one side or the other, AFAIK.

So... what standard are you measuring with? The one that says 'yes,' the one that says 'no,' or the one that says 'maybe?'

Who cares!

The international body failed to meet their goals. You are far more likely to get them to change the schema than you are to get MS to change the SOM.
Pick your battles.

Reread my previous post for a list of suggestions on how to work around this problem.
--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"rox.scott" <ro******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:59**********************************@microsof t.com...

> Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a schema is

interoperability.

Clearly, one of the main goals of publishing a platform is functionality.
Hence, my question is ... are the limitations of the Microsoft SOM (as
described in the MSDN article -- i don't need to post my schema here)

valid?

or not?