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.Net: 3 Years of the 'Vision' Thing

asj
interesting read from eweek about the dying hope surrounding .net

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,,1184728,00.asp

The end of last month marked the third anniversary of Microsoft's launch
of its .Net strategy, which executives such as Chairman and Chief
Software Architect Bill Gates said at the time was a "bet-the-company
thing." But three years later, reactions are mixed as to whether that
strategy, along with the vision that accompanied it, has played out as
the Redmond, Wash., software developer had hoped.

Rob Helms, research director for Directions on Microsoft, a research
company that tracks Microsoft, in Kirkland, Wash., said the .Net
initiative described a vision for how software and the Internet would
evolve; a new platform for software development that supported the
vision; and a new business—application hosting—that would drive future
growth for the company.

"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanished
from Microsoft's vocabulary.

On the thorny issue of the .Net platform versus the Java platform, Helms
said the slow growth of Web services has prevented Microsoft from
driving adoption of the .Net platform or giving it a leg up on Java. The
..Net platform itself has been hampered by immature Web service
standards.
Jul 19 '05 #1
37 2585
asj
i meant "dying hYpe", not hope, but i guess that works just as well ;-)

asj wrote:

interesting read from eweek about the dying hope surrounding .net

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,,1184728,00.asp

The end of last month marked the third anniversary of Microsoft's launch
of its .Net strategy, which executives such as Chairman and Chief
Software Architect Bill Gates said at the time was a "bet-the-company
thing." But three years later, reactions are mixed as to whether that
strategy, along with the vision that accompanied it, has played out as
the Redmond, Wash., software developer had hoped.

Rob Helms, research director for Directions on Microsoft, a research
company that tracks Microsoft, in Kirkland, Wash., said the .Net
initiative described a vision for how software and the Internet would
evolve; a new platform for software development that supported the
vision; and a new business—application hosting—that would drive future
growth for the company.

"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanished
from Microsoft's vocabulary.

On the thorny issue of the .Net platform versus the Java platform, Helms
said the slow growth of Web services has prevented Microsoft from
driving adoption of the .Net platform or giving it a leg up on Java. The
.Net platform itself has been hampered by immature Web service
standards.

Jul 19 '05 #2
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:36:42 -0400, asj <as*@xzxx.com> wrote or quoted
:
"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanished
from Microsoft's vocabulary.


The problem is, the industry can't bet the farm on a technology that
Microsoft might dump. With Java, at least if Sun loses interest,
there are plenty of other parties who could take the ball.
Java has been fiercely multiplatform and multivendor since day 1. MS
has been fiercely proprietary.

Gates underestimated the impact of the Internet back in the 90s. I
think he has done it again. He misunderstood the need for software to
run on a wide variety of platforms from tiny handhelds to humongous.

I don't want to see .net die. The .net folk seem much more willing to
cater to the needs of application programmers to make their life
easier, even if it complicates the lives of the compiler writers. .net
is a good spur to Java's continued evolution to be more application
programmer-friendly.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
Jul 19 '05 #3
"Roedy Green" <ro***@mindprod.com> wrote in message
news:sj********************************@4ax.com...
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:36:42 -0400, asj <as*@xzxx.com> wrote or quoted
:
"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanished
from Microsoft's vocabulary.


The problem is, the industry can't bet the farm on a technology that
Microsoft might dump. With Java, at least if Sun loses interest,
there are plenty of other parties who could take the ball.
Java has been fiercely multiplatform and multivendor since day 1. MS
has been fiercely proprietary.

Gates underestimated the impact of the Internet back in the 90s. I
think he has done it again. He misunderstood the need for software to
run on a wide variety of platforms from tiny handhelds to humongous.

I don't want to see .net die. The .net folk seem much more willing to
cater to the needs of application programmers to make their life
easier, even if it complicates the lives of the compiler writers. .net
is a good spur to Java's continued evolution to be more application
programmer-friendly.


The article is referring to the "Let's brand everything with .NET" marketing
frenzy of a couple years ago. That, thankfully, has run its course.

It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still very
much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will bring a
new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.

--
Visit the C# product team at http://www.csharp.net

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Jul 19 '05 #4
asj
YGBKM wrote:

Were was Java after 3 years? NOWHERE.


actually, by 1998, java was pretty much heralded as the next coming of
the messiah....it was being slotted into almost everything possible,
from the ill-fated NCs, to smartcards, to set-tops, etc, not to mention
the fact every second website had a really annoying, large applet
choking people's 28k modems. it was also trying to make it to the
enterprise at the time, with much derision and skepticism from some
quarters...and, oh, yeah, several idiots like corel were porting entire
office suites to it, even though the api's and jvms to handle such large
projects were not yet mature enough.
Jul 19 '05 #5
> i agree with you here, that microsoft has done a MUCH better job to make
life easier for developers. and it HAS forced java to make some changes,
even including many initiatives to make java almost VB in terms of ease
of programming (how long did it take the java vendors to think THIS up?)


Although on principal I would agree with the sentiment, there could be
a problem here: if developing Java apps becomes easier, any monkey
could hack something out and then we'd all have to reduce our rates to
the level of VB developers - not good!

Perhaps we should start petitioning Sun and Java-based vendors to
reduce functionality & user-friendliness?

;)

- sarge
Jul 19 '05 #6

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xzxx.com...
YGBKM wrote:

Were was Java after 3 years? NOWHERE.


actually, by 1998, java was pretty much heralded as the next coming of
the messiah....it was being slotted into almost everything possible,
from the ill-fated NCs, to smartcards, to set-tops, etc, not to mention
the fact every second website had a really annoying, large applet
choking people's 28k modems. it was also trying to make it to the
enterprise at the time, with much derision and skepticism from some
quarters...and, oh, yeah, several idiots like corel were porting entire
office suites to it, even though the api's and jvms to handle such large
projects were not yet mature enough.


Sounds like you just described .NET.

Jul 19 '05 #7
asj
Chris wrote:
Although on principal I would agree with the sentiment, there could be
a problem here: if developing Java apps becomes easier, any monkey
could hack something out and then we'd all have to reduce our rates to
the level of VB developers - not good!

Perhaps we should start petitioning Sun and Java-based vendors to
reduce functionality & user-friendliness?

;)


you're too late...sun wants to grow the number of developers to 10
MILLION in 3 years using something called "RAVE", which would make
creating advanced functionalities in java a drag and drop thing....if
that happens the ratio of supply of developers to demand will be larger,
perhaps driving enterprise java salaries lower overall....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/31667.html

"Sun Microsystems has finally unveiled its long-promised development
environment to simplify programming in Java. Called "project Rave", it
is designed to bring drag-and-drop capabilities to programmers building
Java-based web services and applications."

"On a strategic and technical basis, Rave holds promise as a developers'
tool. Due in 2004, Rave is expected to compile Java code at the touch of
a button, and uses Java Server Faces to develop interfaces using
JavaServer Pages (JSPs). It is designed to import UI designs from
software such as Adobe Systems' Illustrator."
Jul 19 '05 #8
asj
Jay Glynn wrote:

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xzxx.com...
YGBKM wrote:

Were was Java after 3 years? NOWHERE.


actually, by 1998, java was pretty much heralded as the next coming of
the messiah....it was being slotted into almost everything possible,
from the ill-fated NCs, to smartcards, to set-tops, etc, not to mention
the fact every second website had a really annoying, large applet
choking people's 28k modems. it was also trying to make it to the
enterprise at the time, with much derision and skepticism from some
quarters...and, oh, yeah, several idiots like corel were porting entire
office suites to it, even though the api's and jvms to handle such large
projects were not yet mature enough.


Sounds like you just described .NET.


not that i know of...perhaps 3 years ago (when even gates described .net
as the be all and end all for microsoft), but not today, when it's
pretty much just another development environment for microsoft shops
that is cannibalizing older microsoft technologies like VB and COM.
Jul 19 '05 #9
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...

It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still very much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will bring a
new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.


Including one to flush from a FileStream to the disk? It's annoying to me
that I need unsafe code to do this today.
Jul 19 '05 #10

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F**********@xx.com...
Jay Glynn wrote:

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xzxx.com...
YGBKM wrote:
>
> Were was Java after 3 years? NOWHERE.
>

actually, by 1998, java was pretty much heralded as the next coming of
the messiah....it was being slotted into almost everything possible,
from the ill-fated NCs, to smartcards, to set-tops, etc, not to mention the fact every second website had a really annoying, large applet
choking people's 28k modems. it was also trying to make it to the
enterprise at the time, with much derision and skepticism from some
quarters...and, oh, yeah, several idiots like corel were porting entire office suites to it, even though the api's and jvms to handle such large projects were not yet mature enough.


Sounds like you just described .NET.


not that i know of...perhaps 3 years ago (when even gates described .net
as the be all and end all for microsoft), but not today, when it's
pretty much just another development environment for microsoft shops
that is cannibalizing older microsoft technologies like VB and COM.


Obviously you don't know what your talking about. Nothing unusual
there.......
Jul 19 '05 #11
asj
John wrote:
Obviously you don't know what your talking about. Nothing unusual
there.......


really? so where are most of the c#/.net people coming from? what with
all the questions from vb and other microsoft developers around here,
sure sounds like a mass migration of the herd from vb and other older
microsoft tech to c# and other .net.....and that sounds like pure
cannibalism to me.

unfortunately, .net has not dented the move of disgruntled vb users to
java either...what was that stat: 31% of disgusted vb users still moving
to java?
Jul 19 '05 #12


"Mike Schilling" <ms*************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kv**************@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.. .
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...

It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still

very
much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will bring a new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.


Including one to flush from a FileStream to the disk? It's annoying to me
that I need unsafe code to do this today.


Really? Does FileStream.Flush() not do what you want?


--
Visit the C# product team at http://www.csharp.net

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Jul 19 '05 #13

"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f******@news.microsoft.com...


"Mike Schilling" <ms*************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kv**************@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.. .
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...

It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are
still
very
much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will
bring
a new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.


Including one to flush from a FileStream to the disk? It's annoying to

me that I need unsafe code to do this today.


Really? Does FileStream.Flush() not do what you want?


No, it does not. FileStream.Flush() flushes in-process buffers to system
buffers, but makes no guarantee that the system buffers are then flushed to
the disk. This risks information being lost in case of a system crash. The
only way I know of to force the physical flush is unsafe code:

FlushFileBuffers(fileStream.Handle);
...
[DllImport("KERNEL32.dll", SetLastError=true)]
static extern bool FlushFileBuffers (IntPtr handle);

Jul 19 '05 #14
Mike Schilling wrote:
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f******@news.microsoft.com...


"Mike Schilling" <ms*************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kv**************@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.. .
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...
>
> It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still very
> much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will bring
a
> new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.

Including one to flush from a FileStream to the disk? It's annoying to

me that I need unsafe code to do this today.


Really? Does FileStream.Flush() not do what you want?


No, it does not. FileStream.Flush() flushes in-process buffers to system
buffers, but makes no guarantee that the system buffers are then flushed to
the disk. This risks information being lost in case of a system crash. The
only way I know of to force the physical flush is unsafe code:

FlushFileBuffers(fileStream.Handle);
...
[DllImport("KERNEL32.dll", SetLastError=true)]
static extern bool FlushFileBuffers (IntPtr handle);


This seems like a non-issue. The system could crash between the lines which
flush the in-process buffers to system buffers and your code to flush the system
buffers to disk, and you'd still end up with corrupt data, how do you protect
against that? The disk controller could freeze or cause data corruption or loss,
how do you protect against that? The disk itself could experience a hardware
failure which would result in incorrect or corrupt data, how do you protect
against that? Worrying about this one aspect of data loss without addressing
every other possible event which could result in corrupt or incorrect data seems
pointless.

Flushing to the system buffer is sufficient, let the operating system take care
of moving the data to disk for you when it's convenient for it to do so.

If you're worried about power failure during the period between flushing to the
system buffer and that data being written to disk, get a UPS that will provide
sufficient capacity to last long enough to write any current system buffer to
disk (which would be a few minutes at most, more likely a few seconds).

--
| Grant Wagner <gw*****@agricoreunited.com>

Jul 19 '05 #15

"Grant Wagner" <gw*****@agricoreunited.com> wrote in message
news:3F***************@agricoreunited.com...
Mike Schilling wrote:
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f******@news.microsoft.com...


"Mike Schilling" <ms*************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kv**************@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.. .
> "Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message > news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...
> >
> > It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still
> very
> > much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will

bring
a
> > new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.
>
> Including one to flush from a FileStream to the disk? It's annoying
to me
> that I need unsafe code to do this today.

Really? Does FileStream.Flush() not do what you want?


No, it does not. FileStream.Flush() flushes in-process buffers to system buffers, but makes no guarantee that the system buffers are then flushed to the disk. This risks information being lost in case of a system crash. The only way I know of to force the physical flush is unsafe code:

FlushFileBuffers(fileStream.Handle);
...
[DllImport("KERNEL32.dll", SetLastError=true)]
static extern bool FlushFileBuffers (IntPtr handle);


This seems like a non-issue. The system could crash between the lines

which flush the in-process buffers to system buffers and your code to flush the system buffers to disk, and you'd still end up with corrupt data, how do you protect against that? The disk controller could freeze or cause data corruption or loss, how do you protect against that? The disk itself could experience a hardware failure which would result in incorrect or corrupt data, how do you protect against that? Worrying about this one aspect of data loss without addressing every other possible event which could result in corrupt or incorrect data seems pointless.


You're right that being able to flush to disk isn't sufficient for building
a reliable transactional system, but it is necessary. And if you've ever
used a database, you've relied on that sort of flush working correctly
whether you knew it or not.
Jul 19 '05 #16
asj <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:<3F***********@xzxx.com>...
i meant "dying hYpe", not hope, but i guess that works just as well ;-) Maybe Microsoft feels that .NET is a failure because hailstorm did not
take hold and extend & embrace the entire web........
asj wrote:

interesting read from eweek about the dying hope surrounding .net

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,,1184728,00.asp

The end of last month marked the third anniversary of Microsoft's launch
of its .Net strategy, which executives such as Chairman and Chief
Software Architect Bill Gates said at the time was a "bet-the-company
thing." But three years later, reactions are mixed as to whether that
strategy, along with the vision that accompanied it, has played out as
the Redmond, Wash., software developer had hoped.

Rob Helms, research director for Directions on Microsoft, a research
company that tracks Microsoft, in Kirkland, Wash., said the .Net
initiative described a vision for how software and the Internet would
evolve; a new platform for software development that supported the
vision; and a new business?application hosting?that would drive future
growth for the company.

"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanished
from Microsoft's vocabulary.

On the thorny issue of the .Net platform versus the Java platform, Helms
said the slow growth of Web services has prevented Microsoft from
driving adoption of the .Net platform or giving it a leg up on Java. The
.Net platform itself has been hampered by immature Web service
standards.

Jul 19 '05 #17
asj
Heinz Getzler wrote:

asj <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:<3F***********@xzxx.com>...
i meant "dying hYpe", not hope, but i guess that works just as well ;-)

Maybe Microsoft feels that .NET is a failure because hailstorm did not
take hold and extend & embrace the entire web........


microsoft can go kiss my fat as* for repeatedly trying to monopolize
everything. remember kiddies, the only thing worse than abusive
monopolies are people who don't care or do anything about it, because
then we all, as consumers, pay the price.
Jul 19 '05 #18
Well said Eric ;) And good to see you popping up in the newsgroups from time
to time ;)
--
Peter Wright
Author of ADO.NET Novice To Pro, from Apress Inc.
_____________________________
"Eric Gunnerson" <er***********@microsoft.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3f********@news.microsoft.com...
"Roedy Green" <ro***@mindprod.com> wrote in message
news:sj********************************@4ax.com...
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:36:42 -0400, asj <as*@xzxx.com> wrote or quoted
:
"Three years later, most of the hopes behind the .Net initiative have
not been realized," Helms said, adding that .Net has now almost vanishedfrom Microsoft's vocabulary.
The problem is, the industry can't bet the farm on a technology that
Microsoft might dump. With Java, at least if Sun loses interest,
there are plenty of other parties who could take the ball.
Java has been fiercely multiplatform and multivendor since day 1. MS
has been fiercely proprietary.

Gates underestimated the impact of the Internet back in the 90s. I
think he has done it again. He misunderstood the need for software to
run on a wide variety of platforms from tiny handhelds to humongous.

I don't want to see .net die. The .net folk seem much more willing to
cater to the needs of application programmers to make their life
easier, even if it complicates the lives of the compiler writers. .net
is a good spur to Java's continued evolution to be more application
programmer-friendly.


The article is referring to the "Let's brand everything with .NET"

marketing frenzy of a couple years ago. That, thankfully, has run its course.

It's not referring to the .NET Platform and Frameworks, which are still very much alive and talked about throughout the company. Longhorn will bring a
new set of managed interfaces to the O/S.

--
Visit the C# product team at http://www.csharp.net

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Jul 19 '05 #19
Ben
Here here!
"John" <so*****@msnnotamucho.com> wrote in message
news:3f***********************@news.xs4all.nl...

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F**********@xx.com...
Jay Glynn wrote:

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xzxx.com...
> YGBKM wrote:
> >
> > Were was Java after 3 years? NOWHERE.
> >
>
> actually, by 1998, java was pretty much heralded as the next coming of > the messiah....it was being slotted into almost everything possible,
> from the ill-fated NCs, to smartcards, to set-tops, etc, not to mention > the fact every second website had a really annoying, large applet
> choking people's 28k modems. it was also trying to make it to the
> enterprise at the time, with much derision and skepticism from some
> quarters...and, oh, yeah, several idiots like corel were porting entire > office suites to it, even though the api's and jvms to handle such large > projects were not yet mature enough.

Sounds like you just described .NET.


not that i know of...perhaps 3 years ago (when even gates described .net
as the be all and end all for microsoft), but not today, when it's
pretty much just another development environment for microsoft shops
that is cannibalizing older microsoft technologies like VB and COM.


Obviously you don't know what your talking about. Nothing unusual
there.......

Jul 19 '05 #20
asj
Ben wrote:

Here here!

i believe that's "hear! hear!"

and i ask again:

"really? so where are most of the c#/.net people coming from? what with
all the questions from vb and other microsoft developers around here,
sure sounds like a mass migration of the herd from vb and other older
microsoft tech to c# and other .net.....and that sounds like pure
cannibalism of old by the new to me."
Jul 19 '05 #21
asj wrote:
Ben wrote:

Here here!

i believe that's "hear! hear!"

and i ask again:

"really? so where are most of the c#/.net people coming from? what
with all the questions from vb and other microsoft developers around
here, sure sounds like a mass migration of the herd from vb and other
older microsoft tech to c# and other .net.....and that sounds like
pure cannibalism of old by the new to me."


I think you're clutching at straws here, so what if people using dotnet were
using VB6 or C++ in the past to do development?
Jul 19 '05 #22

"Kent Paul Dolan" <xa******@well.com> wrote in message
news:07************************************@mygate .mailgate.org...
"Frank Mulvenny" <fr***********@info.r.us> wrote:
Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
Former VB programmers are abandoning that tool, and thus
providing revenue lossage there for M$, in droves.
Of course they presumably have already purchased VB6, and so are not
bringing in further revenue for MS by sticking with it.


Except that M$'s standard practice has been to release alphas as
commercial releases, and then sell bugfixes as "upgrades", making for a
perpetual revenue stream among those who didn't learn to avoid that kind
of slavery when the phone company was broken up and had to allow phones
to be sold rather than rented forever as before.


This really isn't true. Most point upgrades to Microsoft tools were free
downloads or minimal cost. The last VS.NET upgrade was what, $20.00. Major
upgrades are every 18 - 24 months, and upgrades are discounted heavily
compared to full retail price. This is the same schedule that most tool
vendors follow. The other thing is that the revenue that is generated by
development tools is barely a blip on Microsoft's radar screen. They have
never "made" money on development tools. The anti-MS drones like to use the
money argument all the time. In the case of dev tools it's a lame argument.
There is no money there.
If they move to .NET and buy VS.NET they will provide revenue to MS.


Not, in particular, more per year than they were before as captive
developers to a proprietary environment, and now there are fewer of
them.
Now mix in the earlier documented > 30% lossage
to other camps (such as Java) in the process,

Can you provide a link to the documentation? Thanks.


Nope. It was posted in this newsgroup, [within the last couple of
months, or I wouldn't remember it], and I'm not about to go wading
through all this drivel trying to find one particular piece of drivel.


If it's posted in a newsgroup then it must be true. I've seen numbers going
both ways. I file those the same place I file the benchmarks.

Jul 19 '05 #23
asj
Jay Glynn wrote:
If it's posted in a newsgroup then it must be true. I've seen numbers going
both ways. I file those the same place I file the benchmarks.


here ya go (it's actually 31% moving to java):
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...net%26rnum%3D1

A new survey of developers shows that existing Visual Basic developers
are moving to Microsoft's upgraded Visual Basic .Net as well as to Java
and other language alternatives to build their applications going
forward.

A survey to be released Tuesday by Evans Data Corp., Santa Cruz, Calif.,
shows that 43 percent of developers surveyed who said they are Visual
Basic developers, plan to cut back on their use of the popular Microsoft
development platform.

Of those saying they plan to reduce their use of Visual Basic, 37
percent said they plan to migrate to Visual Basic .Net.—largely from
Visual Basic 6.0, the last non-.Net version of the product. Yet, 31
percent said they plan to move to Java and 39 percent said they will be
migrating to C#, Microsoft's Java-like language for building Internet
applications and Web services.

Although, Visual Basic is used by 52 percent of all software developers,
this survey—which Evans Data completed in April—indicates that not only
is the Visual Basic follow-on language popular amongst VB developers,
but so is Java and C#.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1054906,00.asp
Jul 19 '05 #24
asj wrote:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1054906,00.asp


Well, that article describes a survey that talks about peoples plans, rather
than current reality.
As a VB6 [now legacy I suppose] developer I can't see the attraction of
VB.NET - it has no benefits over C#, and it's horribly verbose. So, it's the
37% VB.NETters that have me confused :-)
Jul 19 '05 #25
asj wrote:
Frank Mulvenny wrote:

asj wrote:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1054906,00.asp


Well, that article describes a survey that talks about peoples
plans, rather than current reality.


well, people's plans a few months ago are now current reality....the
point being vb is now "dead" (the gospel accg to microsoft) and people
have to move over to another platform...and it looks like java will be
getting a big proportion of that (not that i'm that too enthusiastic
about it, since i'd rather have the supply of developers low and
demand high).

Well, plans dont always pan out, do they?
Bit of wishful thinking until some concrete figures turn up methinks.
Jul 19 '05 #26
asj wrote:
Frank Mulvenny wrote:
Well, plans dont always pan out, do they?
Bit of wishful thinking until some concrete figures turn up methinks.
so, what do you think is happening? people are sticking to vb's
carcass?


No.
pleeezzzzz....you're sorta as naive as those j++ developers
who suddenly had the rug pulled out from under them..

now, instead of playing "monkey don't see, don't hear", why not give
some link that shows otherwise?


Oh do calm down.
Jul 19 '05 #27
asj
Frank Mulvenny wrote:

Oh do calm down.


hmmm... am i otherwise? i point out a survey that shows support for my
argument, you give me platitudes...pretty effective thinking there,
dude...
Jul 19 '05 #28

"asj" <k@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xx.com...
Frank Mulvenny wrote:

asj wrote:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1054906,00.asp
Well, that article describes a survey that talks about peoples plans, rather than current reality.


well, people's plans a few months ago are now current reality....the
point being vb is now "dead" (the gospel accg to microsoft) and people


asj,

MS just announced the VB6 SP6 Beta. It is still a supported product. You
can even buy it new through the MS downgrade program. It is going to be
supported until 2008 - and will probably have another SP or two. It isn't
dead. Yes, MS has discontinued that line of the product, but you still have
a few years to migrate. A lot of VB developers aren't going to be able to
transition for another year or two. I see this discussion all the time on
the VB groups. Most VB'ers that I've talked to like VB.NET or C#, but they
just can't justify the migration yet - though they plan to eventually.
have to move over to another platform...and it looks like java will be
getting a big proportion of that (not that i'm that too enthusiastic
about it, since i'd rather have the supply of developers low and demand
high).


You might want to talk to Sun... They are pushing that 10 million developer
thing (Never going to happen!). That's like 3 times the number of VB
programmers.... So I guess if Sun gets it's way, Java programmers will be
making about $25,000 / year...

Tom Shelton
Jul 19 '05 #29
asj
Tom Shelton wrote:
asj,

MS just announced the VB6 SP6 Beta. It is still a supported product. You
can even buy it new through the MS downgrade program. It is going to be
supported until 2008 - and will probably have another SP or two. It isn't
dead. Yes, MS has discontinued that line of the product, but you still have
a few years to migrate. A lot of VB developers aren't going to be able to
transition for another year or two. I see this discussion all the time on
the VB groups. Most VB'ers that I've talked to like VB.NET or C#, but they
just can't justify the migration yet - though they plan to eventually.

heh, well it does have a death sentence written all over it, mayhaps
like those hopeless dudes in stephen king's the green mile: just killing
time waiting for the chair.......sorta like buying a car that you know
will fall apart a few years later...good deal....really SMART move....

You might want to talk to Sun... They are pushing that 10 million developer
thing (Never going to happen!). That's like 3 times the number of VB
programmers.... So I guess if Sun gets it's way, Java programmers will be
making about $25,000 / year...

i don't believe it either..it's a marketing ploy...they'll increase it
by a lot, but never to 10 million, thank god.
Jul 19 '05 #30
asj wrote:
Frank Mulvenny wrote:

Oh do calm down.


hmmm... am i otherwise? i point out a survey that shows support for my
argument, you give me platitudes...pretty effective thinking there,
dude...


Well let's see, oh, you snipped your comments, conveniently. You did go into
standard rant mode a little, and I dont enjoy debating with someone who's
'jumping up and down on the table' as it were.
Also, you not being able to back up a survey of a few months ago with
concrete figures is not my fault, and I'm afraid the solution to that is not
for me to disprove your postulations with hard facts. In summary, the onus
lies with you.

Cheers
Jul 19 '05 #31
asj wrote:
Tom Shelton wrote:
asj,

MS just announced the VB6 SP6 Beta. It is still a supported
product. You can even buy it new through the MS downgrade program.
It is going to be supported until 2008 - and will probably have
another SP or two. It isn't dead. Yes, MS has discontinued that
line of the product, but you still have a few years to migrate. A
lot of VB developers aren't going to be able to transition for
another year or two. I see this discussion all the time on the VB
groups. Most VB'ers that I've talked to like VB.NET or C#, but they
just can't justify the migration yet - though they plan to
eventually.


heh, well it does have a death sentence written all over it, mayhaps
like those hopeless dudes in stephen king's the green mile: just
killing
time waiting for the chair.......sorta like buying a car that you know
will fall apart a few years later...good deal....really SMART move....


You should go public with this insidious 'self destruct' feature you've
found in VB6 ;-) emdollar shouldnt be allowed to get away with it.
Jul 19 '05 #32
asj
Frank Mulvenny wrote:
You should go public with this insidious 'self destruct' feature you've
found in VB6 ;-) emdollar shouldnt be allowed to get away with it.


i believe it's going to be "strangled", not "self-destruct"......like i
said, mayhaps you like building your apps using a platform that you KNOW
will be gone in just a few years...i like building my house with
sturdier stuff, and i'm sure many others agree (which explains why
people are leaving vb and going to java or .net).
Jul 19 '05 #33
asj
Frank Mulvenny wrote:
Also, you not being able to back up a survey of a few months ago with
concrete figures is not my fault, and I'm afraid the solution to that is not
for me to disprove your postulations with hard facts. In summary, the onus
lies with you.

sorry, insulting is just not going to work...i back up arguments with
link and a survey, you seem to think you can hold up your end by passing
the ball back with nothing on it.

here's an earlier report of its decline:

---------------------------------------------------------

http://www.advisor.com/doc/08156
"A survey of VB developers shows VB use is declining while Java, XML,
and C# are becoming more popular.

ARTICLE INFO
MICROSOFT VISUAL BASIC ADVISOR PORTAL

It seems that new, Internet-focused programming technologies are having
an effect on Visual Basic (VB) use. VB programming has been on the
decline since spring of 2000, reports Evans Data Corporation in its
North American Developer Survey, a continuing research series based on
in-depth interviews with over 600 developers.

In the spring of 2000, 62 percent of developers were using Visual Basic
some of the time; among survey participants, mean time spent using the
language was 27.8 percent total programming time. But today, only 46
percent report using Visual Basic, and the average time spent using it
is down to 20.8 percent. Developers say they will use VB less in the
future."

----------------------------------------------------------
now, will you actually back up your arguments with something more solid
than an insult?
hmmm.................i would guess not.
Jul 19 '05 #34
Okay, umm... geez

First of all this 31% thing being thrown around is silly.
From what I read 31% of the 37% of the VB developers who
are PLANNING on migrating PLAN on migrating to Java. That
is about 11.5% of VB developers saying, "Yeah, I want to
migrate to Java (cause then I'll be rich)". This is silly
to debate about.

All right now, I would like to say that I am very happy
that Microsoft is starting to lose its grip on the
desktop market. (Note how different this sounds
than "Microsoft has failed big time now! Drop dead
Gates!".) Really, alternatives to Microsoft and Apple on
the desktop are just now becoming viable. Open source is
starting to produce viable desktop applications... It is
all very exciting. In this area Java has an edge; its
purpose is to deliver applications to multiple platforms.

BUT, if you have spent any significant time developing
with VS.Net on the .Net Framework, you will see that MS
has really brought something special to developers. And
from what I have seen, especially over the last few
months, I think this IS starting to pay off for
Microsoft. And even if your guts burn with an intense
hatred of anything Microsoft related, I think you should
be able to appreciate the effort.

The bottom line is, because enterprise and govt are
starting to seriously look at alternatives to windows, I
don't really see the need to spend time either a)
cheering about how MS has done the most stupid thing ever
and they will never survive it; or b) lamenting because
MS has done the most stupid thing ever and it will ruin
computing because their monopoly has made them all-
powerful. Can't all of us developers get along? (I mean
really, in five years half of us will probably have been
on the "other side" and back, anyway?

Jeff Barton
Jul 19 '05 #35
asj wrote:
Frank Mulvenny wrote:
Also, you not being able to back up a survey of a few months ago with
concrete figures is not my fault, and I'm afraid the solution to
that is not for me to disprove your postulations with hard facts. In
summary, the onus lies with you.
sorry, insulting is just not going to work...i back up arguments with


Insulting? Hmmm cant see an insult there. Sounds like you might be going
into jumpy-up-and-down rant mode again...
link and a survey, you seem to think you can hold up your end by
passing
the ball back with nothing on it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you wish to make assertions
without basis in hard fact then it really is your responsibility to deal
with that, not other peoples'

Sorry, I dont feel like indulging in the meaningless back-and-forth that you
seem so keen on. If you want to play, go and ask another of the kids.

Cheers.

Jul 19 '05 #36
asj
Frank Mulvenny wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you wish to make assertions
without basis in hard fact then it really is your responsibility to deal
with that, not other peoples'

i give two links and surveys showing VB usage dropping and developers
planning on leaving VB, you give me fluffy talk, not one single example
backing up your case, and seem to be totally blind to the two
URLs...hey, good job there! you must have been in the debating team in
high school eh?
Jul 19 '05 #37
"Jeff Barton" <jb*****@co.sutter.frustration.ca.us> wrote in message news:<0b****************************@phx.gbl>...
Okay, umm... geez

First of all this 31% thing being thrown around is silly.
From what I read 31% of the 37% of the VB developers who
are PLANNING on migrating PLAN on migrating to Java. That
is about 11.5% of VB developers saying, "Yeah, I want to
migrate to Java (cause then I'll be rich)". This is silly
to debate about.

The usage of VB has gone down quite a lot since its heydays. Losing
10% of your developer base to other platforms every couple years is
never a healthy looking prospect, IMO.

powerful. Can't all of us developers get along? (I mean
really, in five years half of us will probably have been
on the "other side" and back, anyway?

That is very doubtful.
Jul 19 '05 #38

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