.NET vs Java (Enterprise)

[Pete Wood]

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,
--
Pete Wood
..NET Architect
http://www.petewood.net

[Jeff Levinson [mcsd]]

You aren't really going to find a view like this except
in certain magazines. BusinessWeek, other ZiffDavis
magazines and I think I saw another comparison in
Software Development.

Basically it is going to come down to what you need (I'm
in the Microsoft camp). It depends on what your
definition of better is. Does it fit within your
enterprise is going to be the first big question? How
well do your apps need to interoperate (and just as an
FYI, the whole Web Service thing is not quite there yet).

But as for my personal views, Java bites compared
to .NET :) Seriously though, you can develop faster
in .NET with less lines of code and it's far less
complicated with better IDE's available (VS being the
premier IDE). However, at this point the JVM is installed
on a much wider base. Also, remember that Java is not
used heavily in desktop applications at this point
whereas MS tools (C++ and VB6) are in heavy use on users
desktops. Some of these points are born out by
independent tests of both .NET and Java.

Jeff Levinson

Author of "Building Client/Server Applications with
VB.NET: An Example Driven Approach"

-----Original Message-----
Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET wouldbe better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?
Best Regards,
--
Pete Wood
..NET Architect
http://www.petewood.net
.

[luke]

"Pete Wood" <pe**@petewood.net> wrote in message news:<3f***********************@mercury.nildram.ne t>...

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,

A few Hard facts:

If you're going to be developing and using any non-Microsoft servers
or desktops or mobile devices, then Java is the only answer. J2EE will
run on Windows, Unix, Linux, Mac OS X, etc. J2ME is the standard for
creating applications (whether enterprise or commercial) in mobile
devices. J2SE will be bundled in all HP and Dell desktops this year,
so Java will make some comeback on the desktop as well.

If you want to take advantage of the benefits of open source
(including Linux), then Java is the answer. There are many open source
tools and implementations for Java. In terms of IDEs, there are
Netbeans and Eclipse that come foremost to mind. In terms of even
application servers you have JBOSS (EJBs), and Tomcat (servlets/JSP).

If you want to avoid vendor lock-in, then Java is the answer. There
are numerous vendors behind Java, and clean room implementations of
Java as well.

[James A. Robertson]

not heard of Python, Smalltalk, or Ruby, eh?

On 2 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0700, ll*****@yahoo.com (luke) wrote:

"Pete Wood" <pe**@petewood.net> wrote in message news:<3f***********************@mercury.nildram.ne t>...

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,

A few Hard facts:

If you're going to be developing and using any non-Microsoft servers
or desktops or mobile devices, then Java is the only answer. J2EE will
run on Windows, Unix, Linux, Mac OS X, etc. J2ME is the standard for
creating applications (whether enterprise or commercial) in mobile
devices. J2SE will be bundled in all HP and Dell desktops this year,
so Java will make some comeback on the desktop as well.

If you want to take advantage of the benefits of open source
(including Linux), then Java is the answer. There are many open source
tools and implementations for Java. In terms of IDEs, there are
Netbeans and Eclipse that come foremost to mind. In terms of even
application servers you have JBOSS (EJBs), and Tomcat (servlets/JSP).

If you want to avoid vendor lock-in, then Java is the answer. There
are numerous vendors behind Java, and clean room implementations of
Java as well.

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

[Luke Tulkas]

"James A. Robertson" <ja*****@gosmalltalk.com> wrote in message
news:m5********************************@4ax.com...

not heard of Python, Smalltalk, or Ruby, eh?

No, man. What are those? OK, the first one's a snake and the third one's
a stone. Smalltalk? I wouldn't know about that. Sounds small, though.
;-)

[brougham3]

"Luke Tulkas" <lu*********@hotmail.com> wrote:

No, man. What are those? OK, the first one's a snake and the third one's
a stone. Smalltalk? I wouldn't know about that. Sounds small, though.
;-)

It's from an FDR quote. Smalltalk and carry a big JVM. Or something to
that effect.

[luke]

"Pete Wood" <pe**@petewood.net> wrote in message news:<3f***********************@mercury.nildram.ne t>...

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,

http://www.varbusiness.com/sections/...asp?ArticleID=

The make-or-break moments that come along only a few times in the life
of a technology, industry or company. This is the story of how Enigma
chairman and CEO Jonathan Yaron recognized when he had reached one of
those fateful moments, and how he decided to go with a J2EE-based
platform. It all happened three years ago during an annual review of
Enigma 3C, the independent software developer's suite of Windows-based
support-chain applications for aerospace, automotive and other
manufacturing clients. Yaron and his colleagues were discussing their
road map for Enigma 3C when the conversation turned to their
Windows-only approach. They were worried that their plans for Enigma
3C were out of step with the buying habits of customers, who
increasingly relied on heterogeneous, Web-based IT environments that
ran more than Windows. Customers, they noted, were standardizing on
Java-based application servers, using plenty of Unix software and
deploying more open-source Linux software throughout their
enterprises.

"This is when we decided to go with native J2EE and rewrite our
complete software system," says Yaron, who is based at the company's
headquarters in Burlington, Mass. The determination was monumental.
Not only did the company turn its back on Microsoft's forthcoming .Net
platform, which Enigma engineers feared wouldn't scale to their needs,
it also invested "eight figures" rewriting Enigma 3C to the J2EE spec.

Why go to all that trouble? "The Microsoft platform is not appropriate
for the toughest, most important applications out there. That's a
world they very much still have issues with," Yaron concludes. "We
knew it was worthwhile to buy into the J2EE platform in order to set
the stage to enable our customers to take advantage of network
services and Web services."

In retrospect, Enigma's choice may seem cut-and-dried--the company
has, after all, gone on to post four straight quarters of growth and
profitability--but the choices Enigma faced typify the kind of
platform decisions that are keeping other ISVs and integrators up at
night.

[singha_lvr]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:42:08 +0100, "Pete Wood" <pe**@petewood.net>
wrote:

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,
--
Pete Wood
.NET Architect
http://www.petewood.net

In my case I don't have the luxury of a choice. My employers tell me
to code in C++, C# and VB.NET. (I'm a software engineer by day using
C++ and C# and I teach VB.NET at a university at night.)

Basically: Whatever my employers tell me to use, I use. It sure beats
loving Java and being unemployed.

Three words that will get you through life:
"Great idea boss!"

[Luke Tulkas]

<br*******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5********************************@4ax.com...

"Luke Tulkas" <lu*********@hotmail.com> wrote:

No, man. What are those? OK, the first one's a snake and the third one'sa stone. Smalltalk? I wouldn't know about that. Sounds small, though.
;-)

It's from an FDR quote. Smalltalk and carry a big JVM.

I don't understand that quote. And BTW: what does goode olde Franklin
Delano have to do with it? :-)))))))

[asj]

that's not exactly a "hard fact", although i agree with the opinion (and
the result).

luke wrote:

"Pete Wood" <pe**@petewood.net> wrote in message news:<3f***********************@mercury.nildram.ne t>...

Hi All,

Does anyone have any *unbiased* views (ie. hard facts) as to why .NET would
be better than Java for the development of Enterprise applications?

Best Regards,

http://www.varbusiness.com/sections/...asp?ArticleID=

The make-or-break moments that come along only a few times in the life
of a technology, industry or company. This is the story of how Enigma
chairman and CEO Jonathan Yaron recognized when he had reached one of
those fateful moments, and how he decided to go with a J2EE-based
platform. It all happened three years ago during an annual review of
Enigma 3C, the independent software developer's suite of Windows-based
support-chain applications for aerospace, automotive and other
manufacturing clients. Yaron and his colleagues were discussing their
road map for Enigma 3C when the conversation turned to their
Windows-only approach. They were worried that their plans for Enigma
3C were out of step with the buying habits of customers, who
increasingly relied on heterogeneous, Web-based IT environments that
ran more than Windows. Customers, they noted, were standardizing on
Java-based application servers, using plenty of Unix software and
deploying more open-source Linux software throughout their
enterprises.

"This is when we decided to go with native J2EE and rewrite our
complete software system," says Yaron, who is based at the company's
headquarters in Burlington, Mass. The determination was monumental.
Not only did the company turn its back on Microsoft's forthcoming .Net
platform, which Enigma engineers feared wouldn't scale to their needs,
it also invested "eight figures" rewriting Enigma 3C to the J2EE spec.

Why go to all that trouble? "The Microsoft platform is not appropriate
for the toughest, most important applications out there. That's a
world they very much still have issues with," Yaron concludes. "We
knew it was worthwhile to buy into the J2EE platform in order to set
the stage to enable our customers to take advantage of network
services and Web services."

In retrospect, Enigma's choice may seem cut-and-dried--the company
has, after all, gone on to post four straight quarters of growth and
profitability--but the choices Enigma faced typify the kind of
platform decisions that are keeping other ISVs and integrators up at
night.

[luke]

singha_lvr <si********@charter.net> wrote in message news:<e0********************************@4ax.com>. ..

In my case I don't have the luxury of a choice. My employers tell me
to code in C++, C# and VB.NET. (I'm a software engineer by day using
C++ and C# and I teach VB.NET at a university at night.)

Basically: Whatever my employers tell me to use, I use. It sure beats
loving Java and being unemployed.

Three words that will get you through life:
"Great idea boss!"

If you're just a plain developer, then of course you have no choice as
to which platform to use. On the other hand, some people here are in
the position (for example, architects or IT managers) to decide on the
IT course a company would take. In this case, a well-informed,
objective assessment of the problems (including long term problems)
that may arise when depending on a single wishy washy vendor should
be part of the decision making process, as opposed to simply diving
into the latest hype (although I must say the hype has definitely
quieted down quite a bit in the case of Microsoft's .NET).

[Bob Lehmann]

<<<<that's not exactly a "hard fact", >>>>

You mean, as opposed to all the other anecdotal Java, J2EE, Open Sores
blather you two gush about in this group?

Bob Lehmann

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F***********@xzxx.com...

that's not exactly a "hard fact", although i agree with the opinion (and
the result).

[singha_lvr]

On 3 Jul 2003 07:46:56 -0700, ll*****@yahoo.com (luke) wrote:

singha_lvr <si********@charter.net> wrote in message news:<e0********************************@4ax.com>. ..

In my case I don't have the luxury of a choice. My employers tell me
to code in C++, C# and VB.NET. (I'm a software engineer by day using
C++ and C# and I teach VB.NET at a university at night.)

Basically: Whatever my employers tell me to use, I use. It sure beats
loving Java and being unemployed.

Three words that will get you through life:
"Great idea boss!"

If you're just a plain developer, then of course you have no choice as
to which platform to use. On the other hand, some people here are in
the position (for example, architects or IT managers) to decide on the
IT course a company would take. In this case, a well-informed,
objective assessment of the problems (including long term problems)
that may arise when depending on a single wishy washy vendor should
be part of the decision making process, as opposed to simply diving
into the latest hype (although I must say the hype has definitely
quieted down quite a bit in the case of Microsoft's .NET).

Well ... I'm not just a "plain developer", but thanks anyway. :-(

The fact that we are a Microsoft partner and actually write code that
Microsoft ships tends to influence our decision. (It's very
profitable for us to code to the Microsoft platform.)

[Tom Welsh]

In article <c5********************************@4ax.com>,
br*******@yahoo.com writes

"Luke Tulkas" <lu*********@hotmail.com> wrote:

No, man. What are those? OK, the first one's a snake and the third one's
a stone. Smalltalk? I wouldn't know about that. Sounds small, though.
;-)

It's from an FDR quote. Smalltalk and carry a big JVM. Or something to
that effect.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far".
President Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt.

Confirmed in the 1970s by John Maynard Smith's game-theory
scenario "Hawks and Doves", which showed that being peaceful
until attacked, then counterattacking vigorously ("Retaliator")
is a strategy likely to succeed in the long run.
--
Tom Welsh

[Ares]

"singha_lvr" <si********@charter.net> wrote in message
news:41********************************@4ax.com...

(It's very profitable for us to code to the Microsoft platform.)

Well, for now. But wait until Bill G and co one day determine it's about
time they earned some money on what you are doing, and it's bye-bye to your
profits.

Ares