Too funny MS ad in Visual Studio Magazine...

[Rob R. Ainscough]

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas run
free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes in -- this is
exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the
name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good revenue generation
for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with the
latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it
does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing
web development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and see
what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[W.G. Ryan MVP]

<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the

name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>
Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with the
latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but
it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone
doing web development"??>> Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have brought
in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest of your
point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did? I'm able to
do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more. Yep, I can even
consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back without a hitch. If
learning .NET was a bad career move on my part, I need about 10 more just
like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and I make a h3ll of a lot more
money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all means,
cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading flat for a while
now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well, I need to get
Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas
run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes in --
this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5
years in the name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good
revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble
to deal with the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it
used to do, but it does support the Web development better now -- I mean
"isn't everyone doing web development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and
see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[clintonG]

Don't get me started.

You haven't seen nothing until you spend more than a decade trying to do
business using products such as AutoCAD from Autodesk. I know people in
general fail to understand how fundamental CAD has become to the nation's
economy and the extent to which it is all subversively controlled and
corrupted by Autodesk. There are 'official' documents indicating the
numbers run into billions of annual losses within each market Autodesk
subversively corrupts and controls. When all is added up one subversive and
corrupt corporate parasite can be shown to be responsible for nearly a
trillion dollars of annual losses imputed into the US economy.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas
run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes in --
this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5
years in the name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good
revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble
to deal with the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it
used to do, but it does support the Web development better now -- I mean
"isn't everyone doing web development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and
see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[Rob R. Ainscough]

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item in the
collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev projects) --
Index Services issues with web development
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own risk but
I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious level
6. Connection management
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and inherit
from that (oh joy)
8. terrible help & search
....

And the list goes on and on.

This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS had a
clue...

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the

name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>

Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation

for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with the
latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but
it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone
doing web development"??>>

Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest of
your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did? I'm
able to do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more. Yep, I
can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back without a
hitch. If learning .NET was a bad career move on my part, I need about 10
more just like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and I make a h3ll of
a lot more money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all
means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading flat for
a while now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well, I need
to get Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas
run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes in --
this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5
years in the name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good
revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they
scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't
do what it used to do, but it does support the Web development better
now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and
see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[W.G. Ryan MVP]

You've got to be kidding me. Is this actually the top of your list of
gripes? I'm 100% pro visual studio and I still have more serious gripes
than this.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item in
the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev projects) --
Index Services issues with web development
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own risk
but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious level
6. Connection management
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
inherit from that (oh joy)
8. terrible help & search
...

And the list goes on and on.

This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS had
a clue...

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the

name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>

Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation

for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with the
latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but
it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone
doing web development"??>>

Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest
of your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did?
I'm able to do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more.
Yep, I can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back
without a hitch. If learning .NET was a bad career move on my part, I
need about 10 more just like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and I
make a h3ll of a lot more money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all
means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading flat
for a while now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well, I
need to get Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas
run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes in --
this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5
years in the name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good
revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they
scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't
do what it used to do, but it does support the Web development better
now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and
see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[Rob R. Ainscough]

List is not in any order, nor is it complete or final in anyway -- never
suggested it was hence why I said "And the list goes on and on...".

Do you want me to play the "hit your specific gripe on head" game -- it's
easier if you list YOUR SERIOUS gripes cause I'm certain that MVP entitles
you to have more SERIOUS GRIPES than anyone else. ;)

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

You've got to be kidding me. Is this actually the top of your list of
gripes? I'm 100% pro visual studio and I still have more serious gripes
than this.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item in
the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev
projects) -- Index Services issues with web development
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own risk
but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious
level
6. Connection management
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
inherit from that (oh joy)
8. terrible help & search
...

And the list goes on and on.

This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS
had a clue...

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the
name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>

Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation
for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with
the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to
do, but it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't
everyone doing web development"??>>
Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest
of your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did?
I'm able to do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more.
Yep, I can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back
without a hitch. If learning .NET was a bad career move on my part, I
need about 10 more just like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and
I make a h3ll of a lot more money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all
means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading flat
for a while now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well,
I need to get Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas
run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes
in -- this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools
every 3-5 years in the name of progress and hope developers don't
notice -- good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for
developers as they scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS only
to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it does support the Web
development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web
development"??

Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and
see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.

[Ken Dopierala Jr.]

Hi Rob,

What do you develop with? Before you even make a dent in VS.Net you'll need
to go on and on with your list. So far you are at:

1: Pretty painless workaround.
2: Braindead compared only to VS.Net 2005, blows everything else off the
market in it's current state.
3: Compared to what? Hell doesn't count and if you name another IDE it'll
get chewed up and spit out.
4: Havn't used it much have you. The biggest thing missing is multimedia
which is why managed DX is available with books dedicated to it.
5: $899 for the Pro version. For 2K you get a heck of a lot more than an
IDE. No one offers anything for even close to the price and what is offered
is inferior.
6: Doing it yourself? Read up!
7: Getting political? Your "on and on" list is obviously coming to an end.
8: Okay your list was most definitely over at 4. The MSDN Knowledge Base is
by far the standard in development documentation.

Get some more ammo. The pea shooter you're packing is making you look weak.
Maybe hit up the trade mags to back your cause. CRN is taken seriously and
based on their ratings from a few months ago regarding development tools
they disagree with you across the board. Good luck! Ken.

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:us**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

List is not in any order, nor is it complete or final in anyway -- never
suggested it was hence why I said "And the list goes on and on...".

Do you want me to play the "hit your specific gripe on head" game -- it's
easier if you list YOUR SERIOUS gripes cause I'm certain that MVP entitles
you to have more SERIOUS GRIPES than anyone else. ;)

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

You've got to be kidding me. Is this actually the top of your list of
gripes? I'm 100% pro visual studio and I still have more serious gripes
than this.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item in
the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev
projects) -- Index Services issues with web development
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own risk
but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious
level
6. Connection management
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
inherit from that (oh joy)
8. terrible help & search
...

And the list goes on and on.

This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS
had a clue...

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the
> name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>

Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation
> for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with
> the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to
> do, but it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't> everyone doing web development"??>>
Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest of your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did? I'm able to do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more.
Yep, I can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back
without a hitch. If learning .NET was a bad career move on my part, I
need about 10 more just like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and I make a h3ll of a lot more money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all
means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading flat
for a while now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well, I need to get Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.
>
> Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a> beach.
>
> I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas> run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes
> in -- this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools
> every 3-5 years in the name of progress and hope developers don't
> notice -- good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for
> developers as they scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS only
> to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it does support the Web> development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web
> development"??
>
> Get a clue Microsoft.
>
> P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and> see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.
>
>

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Rob R. Ainscough wrote:

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
I fail to see this, the thing is that the SqlServer client in ADO.NET
is much closer to the raw metal than the ADO wrapper around the OleDb
driver ever was.
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item
in the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
Use a real language ;).
C# doesn't have that, it lets you see every element in an object.
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev
projects) -- Index Services issues with web development
webdevelopment is indeed not that great, though not everyone does
webdevelopment :P
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own
risk but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
I almost never use COM dlls, and I'm not doing anything unusual.
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious
level 6. Connection management
Go to Montevideo, Uruguay. I know for a fact they pay more money for a
..NET developer than in the US.
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
inherit from that (oh joy)
huh?
8. terrible help & search
...
give me one example of better help on the same scale (i.e. amount of
classes in a framework).
And the list goes on and on.
no it doesn't.
This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if
MS had a clue...
Well, I AM making money because MS had no clue about O/R mapping, so I
give you that one ;)

FB


"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

<<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the

name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>

Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(

<<good revenue generation

for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with the >> latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it
used to do, but >> it does support the Web development better now --
I mean "isn't everyone >> doing web development"??>>

Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the
rest of your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous
versions did? I'm able to do everythign I was able to before and a
whole lot more. Yep, I can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote
a few years back without a hitch. If learning .NET was a bad
career move on my part, I need about 10 more just like it b/c life
is a lot easier these days and I make a h3ll of a lot more money.

So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by
all means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been
trading flat for a while now and if they're raking in the revenue
from VS.NET, well, I need to get Bill on the phone and find out
where my money is. "Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote
in message news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart

on a >> beach.
I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas >> run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide
comes in -- >> this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev
tools every 3-5 >> years in the name of progress and hope developers
don't notice -- good >> revenue generation for MS, bad career move
for developers as they >> scramble to deal with the latest crap from
MS only to find out it can't >> do what it used to do, but it does
support the Web development better >> now -- I mean "isn't everyone
doing web development"??
Get a clue Microsoft.

P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and >> see what real developers look like -- it isn't something
out of GQ.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

clintonG wrote:

Don't get me started.

You haven't seen nothing until you spend more than a decade trying to
do business using products such as AutoCAD from Autodesk. I know
people in general fail to understand how fundamental CAD has become
to the nation's economy and the extent to which it is all
subversively controlled and corrupted by Autodesk. There are
'official' documents indicating the numbers run into billions of
annual losses within each market Autodesk subversively corrupts and
controls. When all is added up one subversive and corrupt corporate
parasite can be shown to be responsible for nearly a trillion dollars
of annual losses imputed into the US economy.
I have a feeling you had a bad experience with autocad. ;) They
tortured you TOO to write software in their horrible AutoLisp language?
;)

FB, fellow autolisp victim

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart
on a beach.

I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your
ideas run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide
comes in -- this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev
tools every 3-5 years in the name of progress and hope developers
don't notice -- good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for
developers as they scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS
only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it does
support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone
doing web development"??

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[clintonG]

ROFL

Yes, AutoLisp scared me away from development and I never really learned it
well. The same thing happened to me when I first tried reading Perl. Now I'm
much happier with C# of course :-) but some aspects of OOP are really giving
me a hard time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...

clintonG wrote:

Don't get me started.

You haven't seen nothing until you spend more than a decade trying to
do business using products such as AutoCAD from Autodesk. I know
people in general fail to understand how fundamental CAD has become
to the nation's economy and the extent to which it is all
subversively controlled and corrupted by Autodesk. There are
'official' documents indicating the numbers run into billions of
annual losses within each market Autodesk subversively corrupts and
controls. When all is added up one subversive and corrupt corporate
parasite can be shown to be responsible for nearly a trillion dollars
of annual losses imputed into the US economy.

I have a feeling you had a bad experience with autocad. ;) They
tortured you TOO to write software in their horrible AutoLisp language?
;)

FB, fellow autolisp victim

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

> MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.
>
> Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart
> on a beach.
>
> I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your
> ideas run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide
> comes in -- this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev
> tools every 3-5 years in the name of progress and hope developers
> don't notice -- good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for
> developers as they scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS
> only to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it does
> support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone
> doing web development"??

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Peter van der Goes]

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
BeginTransactions
2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item in
the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev projects) --
Index Services issues with web development
4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own risk
but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious level
6. Connection management
7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
inherit from that (oh joy)
8. terrible help & search
...

And the list goes on and on.

This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS had
a clue...

In reference to your #5: Go price some competing commercial development
suites and then come back and tell us how outrageous the price is. Oracle,
for example, wants ~$10,000 per seat for its tool suite.

--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.

[Rob R. Ainscough]

Ken, Frans, & William

So based on the lack of meat in your responses, I will assume you agree with
me. You folks are classic -- you have small app syndrome. Increase your
work loads and you'll realize just how bad Microsoft's "Vision" is.

So, when is the next mass migration due? I suppose there are infinite ways
to come up with the same ultimate output and you're clearly accepting MS as
defacto standard. Haven't you noticed that you're ultimately doing the same
thing over and over and over but only with a different go-fast tool?
SSDD -- do you really want to progress your concepts and ideas or do you
enjoy living in the muck called VS 2003?

Even MS boast they re-wrote VS from scratch -- and this is a good thing??
What happened to code re-use? What happened to scalability? We're supposed
to be moving forward, not migrating and re-writing apps every 3-5 years --
all that does is make MS rich, and the folks we develop apps for pissed off.
You think any company wants to hear, we're gonna have to start from scratch
and/or do a huge migration project? Do you really? I don't know what
scale/size apps you folks design/code, but MS's vision is good for no one
other than MS revenue stream. It's sad that you think your doing well
(money wise and salary wise) at the expense of the companies you work for or
contract with -- or maybe you folks always write new applications and dumb
whatever currently exists. Is this really a vision you think is good for
progress? Are you really that myopic?

Rob.

"Ken Dopierala Jr." <kd*********@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Rob,

What do you develop with? Before you even make a dent in VS.Net you'll
need
to go on and on with your list. So far you are at:

1: Pretty painless workaround.
2: Braindead compared only to VS.Net 2005, blows everything else off the
market in it's current state.
3: Compared to what? Hell doesn't count and if you name another IDE it'll
get chewed up and spit out.
4: Havn't used it much have you. The biggest thing missing is multimedia
which is why managed DX is available with books dedicated to it.
5: $899 for the Pro version. For 2K you get a heck of a lot more than an
IDE. No one offers anything for even close to the price and what is
offered
is inferior.
6: Doing it yourself? Read up!
7: Getting political? Your "on and on" list is obviously coming to an
end.
8: Okay your list was most definitely over at 4. The MSDN Knowledge Base
is
by far the standard in development documentation.

Get some more ammo. The pea shooter you're packing is making you look
weak.
Maybe hit up the trade mags to back your cause. CRN is taken seriously
and
based on their ratings from a few months ago regarding development tools
they disagree with you across the board. Good luck! Ken.

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:us**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

List is not in any order, nor is it complete or final in anyway -- never
suggested it was hence why I said "And the list goes on and on...".

Do you want me to play the "hit your specific gripe on head" game -- it's
easier if you list YOUR SERIOUS gripes cause I'm certain that MVP
entitles
you to have more SERIOUS GRIPES than anyone else. ;)

"W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

> You've got to be kidding me. Is this actually the top of your list of
> gripes? I'm 100% pro visual studio and I still have more serious
> gripes
> than this.
> "Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> 1. Recording lock in ADO.NET -- more hoops -- SQL time (UPDLOCK) and
>> BeginTransactions
>> 2. Brain dead debugger -- I'd like to see the contents of that item
>> in
>> the collection and/or datatable (debug.writeline -- ugh!)
>> 3. Buggy as hell IDE (even more buggy with ASP.NET - Web dev
>> projects) -- Index Services issues with web development
>> 4. .NET framework v1.1 missing A LOT of features making virtually
>> impossible to remain "managed" -- consume old COM dlls at your own
>> risk
>> but I see why you would since .NET framework v1.1 is so limited
>> 5. $2000+/yr single developer if your into this game at any serious
>> level
>> 6. Connection management
>> 7. OOP the MS way -- but I don't want my child to inherit ALL the
>> properties of the parent, well ya got create an New grandparent and
>> inherit from that (oh joy)
>> 8. terrible help & search
>> ...
>>
>> And the list goes on and on.
>>
>> This is progress? Just think how much money you could have made if MS
>> had a clue...
>>
>> "W.G. Ryan MVP" <Wi*********@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ef**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> <<Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5 years in the
>>>> name of progress and hope developers don't notice >>
>>>
>>> Is that what they did? I didn't notice ;-(
>>>
>>> <<good revenue generation
>>>> for MS, bad career move for developers as they scramble to deal with
>>>> the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't do what it used to
>>>> do, but it does support the Web development better now -- I mean "isn't >>>> everyone doing web development"??>>
>>> Yep, I know that $35.00 upgrade price from VS.NET to 2003 must have
>>> brought in tons of cash for Microsoft. But I'm not sure what the rest >>> of your point is.... What doesn't VS.NET do that previous versions did? >>> I'm able to do everythign I was able to before and a whole lot more.
>>> Yep, I can even consume those old COM dlls I wrote a few years back
>>> without a hitch. If learning .NET was a bad career move on my part,
>>> I
>>> need about 10 more just like it b/c life is a lot easier these days and >>> I make a h3ll of a lot more money.
>>>
>>> So since you're obviously looking to ruffle features, please, by all
>>> means, cite some specifics. My Microsoft stock has been trading
>>> flat
>>> for a while now and if they're raking in the revenue from VS.NET, well, >>> I need to get Bill on the phone and find out where my money is.
>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.
>>>>
>>>> Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart
>>>> on a >>>> beach.
>>>>
>>>> I could NOT stop laughing at the stupidity of the ad -- "Let your ideas >>>> run free"....only to be washed up by the waves when the tide comes
>>>> in -- this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools
>>>> every 3-5 years in the name of progress and hope developers don't
>>>> notice -- good revenue generation for MS, bad career move for
>>>> developers as they scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS
>>>> only
>>>> to find out it can't do what it used to do, but it does support the Web >>>> development better now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web
>>>> development"??
>>>>
>>>> Get a clue Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> P.S. -- those two guys you have in the Ad, you need to get out more and >>>> see what real developers look like -- it isn't something out of GQ.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Rob R. Ainscough wrote:

Ken, Frans, & William

So based on the lack of meat in your responses, I will assume you
agree with me. You folks are classic -- you have small app syndrome.
1) your remarks were countered, so we don't agree with you
2) you're classic, namely a troll.

3) small app syndrome? LOL :)
Increase your work loads and you'll realize just how bad Microsoft's
"Vision" is.
you haven't payed attention to whom you're talking, have you? :)
So, when is the next mass migration due? I suppose there are
infinite ways to come up with the same ultimate output and you're
clearly accepting MS as defacto standard. Haven't you noticed that
you're ultimately doing the same thing over and over and over but
only with a different go-fast tool? SSDD -- do you really want to
progress your concepts and ideas or do you enjoy living in the muck
called VS 2003?
nope, you haven't checked what we've done/do :)
Even MS boast they re-wrote VS from scratch -- and this is a good
thing?? What happened to code re-use? What happened to scalability?
based on what is this babbling based?
We're supposed to be moving forward, not migrating and re-writing
apps every 3-5 years -- all that does is make MS rich, and the folks
we develop apps for pissed off.
Who says you have to rewrite an app every 3-5 years? Is your software
that broken that you need to rewrite it every 3-5 years?
You think any company wants to hear,
we're gonna have to start from scratch and/or do a huge migration
project? Do you really? I don't know what scale/size apps you folks
design/code,
no you really don't know, that's for sure :P
but MS's vision is good for no one other than MS revenue
stream. It's sad that you think your doing well (money wise and
salary wise) at the expense of the companies you work for or contract
with -- or maybe you folks always write new applications and dumb
whatever currently exists. Is this really a vision you think is good
for progress? Are you really that myopic?

I have really no clue what your real point is and why you spend all
this time ranting in the C# newsgroup. I have a feeling you're deeply
frustrated or something, but I don't see why that has to lead to a rant
in a newsgroup other than getting attention.

Frans

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

There is a scale of effectiveness in advertising. Roughly:
0 - you don't remember the ad 10 minutes after seeing it
1 - you vaguely remember the ad. Don't remember the product
2 - you remember the ad and agree with the point.
3 - you find the ad interesting and mention it to other people.
4 - you find the ad disruptive (funny, counterintuitive, odd) and you tell
everyone you know to see it too.

To get #3 or #4 is considered amazingly effective. Less that 1% of all
advertising will make it to "word of mouth."

I see that this ad scored a #4 for you. I'm glad that the marketing
department is doing such a fine job.

I'm not kidding.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

[clintonG]

This is entertaining. See if you remember this...
http://www.escapeyesterworld.com/
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JZ********************@comcast.com...

There is a scale of effectiveness in advertising. Roughly:
0 - you don't remember the ad 10 minutes after seeing it
1 - you vaguely remember the ad. Don't remember the product
2 - you remember the ad and agree with the point.
3 - you find the ad interesting and mention it to other people.
4 - you find the ad disruptive (funny, counterintuitive, odd) and you tell
everyone you know to see it too.

To get #3 or #4 is considered amazingly effective. Less that 1% of all
advertising will make it to "word of mouth."

I see that this ad scored a #4 for you. I'm glad that the marketing
department is doing such a fine job.

I'm not kidding.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

[Rob R. Ainscough]

Frans,

C# newsgroup?? Did you get lost again? This is
"microsoft.public.dotnet.general" -- it is not specific to C#.

What counter is that? empty statements and work arounds?

To whom I'm talking -- I see you have GOD syndrome also -- I expected no
less.

VB6 migration to VB.NET -- the migration tool is pretty useless, hence the
need to re-write or at least another painful conversion of huge source
library if one is to remain "managed" under .NET framework v1.1.

Don't know, don't care what you do -- again GOD syndrome and again no
counter. But I see you're yet another productivity tool -- just another
layer, exactly what we don't need, more layers, more different companies to
deal with, etc. etc. You sure are proud of that MVP on your blog.

Rob
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn***************@news.microsoft.com...

Rob R. Ainscough wrote:

Ken, Frans, & William

So based on the lack of meat in your responses, I will assume you
agree with me. You folks are classic -- you have small app syndrome.

1) your remarks were countered, so we don't agree with you
2) you're classic, namely a troll.

3) small app syndrome? LOL :)

Increase your work loads and you'll realize just how bad Microsoft's
"Vision" is.

you haven't payed attention to whom you're talking, have you? :)

So, when is the next mass migration due? I suppose there are
infinite ways to come up with the same ultimate output and you're
clearly accepting MS as defacto standard. Haven't you noticed that
you're ultimately doing the same thing over and over and over but
only with a different go-fast tool? SSDD -- do you really want to
progress your concepts and ideas or do you enjoy living in the muck
called VS 2003?

nope, you haven't checked what we've done/do :)

Even MS boast they re-wrote VS from scratch -- and this is a good
thing?? What happened to code re-use? What happened to scalability?

based on what is this babbling based?

We're supposed to be moving forward, not migrating and re-writing
apps every 3-5 years -- all that does is make MS rich, and the folks
we develop apps for pissed off.

Who says you have to rewrite an app every 3-5 years? Is your software
that broken that you need to rewrite it every 3-5 years?

You think any company wants to hear,
we're gonna have to start from scratch and/or do a huge migration
project? Do you really? I don't know what scale/size apps you folks
design/code,

no you really don't know, that's for sure :P

but MS's vision is good for no one other than MS revenue
stream. It's sad that you think your doing well (money wise and
salary wise) at the expense of the companies you work for or contract
with -- or maybe you folks always write new applications and dumb
whatever currently exists. Is this really a vision you think is good
for progress? Are you really that myopic?

I have really no clue what your real point is and why you spend all
this time ranting in the C# newsgroup. I have a feeling you're deeply
frustrated or something, but I don't see why that has to lead to a rant
in a newsgroup other than getting attention.

Frans

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Rob R. Ainscough]

Nick,

I know you're not kidding -- sorta proof in the pudding, think about what
you just said.

Rob.

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JZ********************@comcast.com...

There is a scale of effectiveness in advertising. Roughly:
0 - you don't remember the ad 10 minutes after seeing it
1 - you vaguely remember the ad. Don't remember the product
2 - you remember the ad and agree with the point.
3 - you find the ad interesting and mention it to other people.
4 - you find the ad disruptive (funny, counterintuitive, odd) and you tell
everyone you know to see it too.

To get #3 or #4 is considered amazingly effective. Less that 1% of all
advertising will make it to "word of mouth."

I see that this ad scored a #4 for you. I'm glad that the marketing
department is doing such a fine job.

I'm not kidding.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

That is SO funny! I wasn't aware of that ad. Thanks for the link.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uL**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

This is entertaining. See if you remember this...
http://www.escapeyesterworld.com/
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JZ********************@comcast.com...

There is a scale of effectiveness in advertising. Roughly:
0 - you don't remember the ad 10 minutes after seeing it
1 - you vaguely remember the ad. Don't remember the product
2 - you remember the ad and agree with the point.
3 - you find the ad interesting and mention it to other people.
4 - you find the ad disruptive (funny, counterintuitive, odd) and you
tell everyone you know to see it too.

To get #3 or #4 is considered amazingly effective. Less that 1% of all
advertising will make it to "word of mouth."

I see that this ad scored a #4 for you. I'm glad that the marketing
department is doing such a fine job.

I'm not kidding.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

MS Visual Studio Ad contained in VS Magazine.

Two developers in "hip" clothing diagramming out a huge flow chart on a
beach.

[EricTN]

"Rob R. Ainscough" wrote:

this is exactly so so so Microsoft. Re-invent the dev tools every 3-5
years in the name of progress and hope developers don't notice -- good
revenue generation for MS, bad career move for developers as they
scramble to deal with the latest crap from MS only to find out it can't
do what it used to do, but it does support the Web development better
now -- I mean "isn't everyone doing web development"??

When MS moved from the original Basic compilers and QuickBasic to VB, there
were a few developers that couldn't see how great that move was and were
upset at the platform change. VB1 came out 1991. The first betas of .NET
were out in 2000, that wasn't even the official release. Far from your point
of MS changing the platform "every 3 to 5 years" what really happened was MS
stuck with classic VB for 10 years. Man, in our industry 10 years is a
friggin' lifetime! Like maybe 50 years in any other industry. Yeah,
somewhere in the middle of that MS moved from 16-bit computing to 32-bit
computing. Are you actually going to sit here in 2005 and try to assert that
that was a bad move on Microsoft's part??????? So, now, after 10 years (a
lifetime), MS has dared to suggest that platform was aging a wee bit and has
moved to a new platform that allows multiple languages like C++, VB, J#(java
syntax), JScript/Javascript conforming to the latest standards, COBOL, and
advanced research languages to interoperate and be hosted under the same
debugger. They moved to a platform built from the ground up to support web
services and scalable distributed multithreaded applications. This is
something we should be upset with?? By the way, their help and
documentation blows away everything else in the industry and I've seen what
all the competitors offer. Yes, especially in the woeful 2002 to 2003 period
when we were at the abyss of the dot-com bust, more than a few corporations
balked at green-lighting moves from the older platform to .NET. I'm seeing
that change all over town now and I'm seeing, and participating in, some
major big-time successes that are winning hearts and minds to .NET. I'm
working on a WinForms app done in VB.NET that combines data-entry,
instrumentation, high-availability, mapping and telephony integration and is
nothing but a success for a national company and let me tell you we could've
NEVER written this thing in "good ole" VB6 -- never, not in a million years.
It wouldn't have been performant, it wouldn't have taken advantage of
multithreading, it wouldn't have a UI that has the most modern/slick
advantages --- dude... what do you do in your profession such that you can't
see that MS is making life better for developers and our customers?
Distributed computing is still too much in the infancy of its arc to just
stick to one "perfect" platform for decades. Yeah, IBM's batch and online
platforms can still run code from the 60's but I'm employed because companies
can't make their employees stare at 80 columns of text anymore. Sometimes
you just have to swallow hard, square your shoulders and jump into the future.