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Microsoft's Martin Taylor: A Desperate Man

I returned home from work today to find an Airborne Express Letter
Express mailer leaning up against my apartment door.

The return addressee was

Microsoft
Suite 300
1165 Eastlake Avenue E
Seattle, WA 98109

Inside was a 4-color folder containing:

Windows 2003 evalution CD
Letter from Martin Taylor ( Sent Feb 1, 2004 according to the
letter...so much for Airborne )
A multipage brochure decrying that Windos was better than Linux.

SAD POOR PITIFUL FOOLS !!!!

....and into the garbage it went..........

PS -- Martin Taylor has been described as:

http://www.linuxpipeline.com/trends/18200168

"Microsoft's Top Anti-Linux General"

More like a Private Last Class I'd Say.........
Jul 21 '05 #1
24 1893
On Wed, 19 May 2004 03:31:49 GMT, Ministry Of Jute wrote:
I returned home from work today to find an Airborne Express Letter
Express mailer leaning up against my apartment door.

The return addressee was

Microsoft
Suite 300
1165 Eastlake Avenue E
Seattle, WA 98109

Inside was a 4-color folder containing:

Windows 2003 evalution CD
Letter from Martin Taylor ( Sent Feb 1, 2004 according to the
letter...so much for Airborne )
A multipage brochure decrying that Windos was better than Linux.

SAD POOR PITIFUL FOOLS !!!!

...and into the garbage it went..........

PS -- Martin Taylor has been described as:

http://www.linuxpipeline.com/trends/18200168

"Microsoft's Top Anti-Linux General"

More like a Private Last Class I'd Say.........


Microsoft have offices on Eastlake? That's news to me. Sure it's not a PR
firm or duplication house?
--
No one ever got fired for blaming Microsoft.
Jul 21 '05 #2
The Lurking Horror wrote:
Microsoft have offices on Eastlake? That's news to me. Sure it's not a PR
firm or duplication house?


Well the From: address definitely says 'Microsoft' on it.

Suite 300.

I might call them tomorrow and berate them for sending me insulting and
slanderous mail.

--
Valhallah !
Jul 21 '05 #3
Hey there Ministry of Jute:

Whatever you think of the technology, you have to admit that one of the
biggest problems with Linux is the people that hang out over at COLA. I'm
using OE and Top posting just for them. I'm actually making an exception
for my hatred of COLA (note, not a hatred of Linux - just COLA) people in
your case dear Bailo b/c I've come to realize you have a great sense of
humor. And at least your barbs are usually pretty witty.
http://msmvps.com/williamryan/posts/6569.aspx Long Live Outlook Express,
Long Live Top Posting

Cheers,

Bill
"Ministry Of Jute" <al*******@jute.net> wrote in message
news:Fy***************@newsread1.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
I returned home from work today to find an Airborne Express Letter
Express mailer leaning up against my apartment door.

The return addressee was

Microsoft
Suite 300
1165 Eastlake Avenue E
Seattle, WA 98109

Inside was a 4-color folder containing:

Windows 2003 evalution CD
Letter from Martin Taylor ( Sent Feb 1, 2004 according to the
letter...so much for Airborne )
A multipage brochure decrying that Windos was better than Linux.

SAD POOR PITIFUL FOOLS !!!!

...and into the garbage it went..........

PS -- Martin Taylor has been described as:

http://www.linuxpipeline.com/trends/18200168

"Microsoft's Top Anti-Linux General"

More like a Private Last Class I'd Say.........

Jul 21 '05 #4
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
[...]
http://msmvps.com/williamryan/posts/6569.aspx [...]


So you're saying that the those whom you take to be "Linux advocates" in
c.o.l.a. (you mentioned John Bailo and Liam Slider) are the biggest
obstacle to the success of open-source.

Thanks for the laugh.

--
"My way of joking is to tell the truth; it's the funniest joke in the
world." - Unknown
Jul 21 '05 #5
Hi Tom:
"Tom B." <to*@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:c8**********@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
[...]
http://msmvps.com/williamryan/posts/6569.aspx [...]


So you're saying that the those whom you take to be "Linux advocates" in
c.o.l.a. (you mentioned John Bailo and Liam Slider) are the biggest
obstacle to the success of open-source.

Thanks for the laugh.

--
"My way of joking is to tell the truth; it's the funniest joke in the
world." - Unknown


Well, it was said somewhat flippantly. However I do think that if many of
the 'advocates' encouraged people to use Linux and OSS without calling them
stupid if they like Windows, it'd have a better image. There's a local talk
show around here for instance that discusses tech issues exclusively. The
host doesn't have any axes to grind so he helps people with Linux/Mac and
Windows Problems. Just about every show will have some Linux advocate
insinuate that that Linux is superior AND it's the Stupidity( or Ignorance
or some other snide comment) of the average user that is the only reason
people use MS or Mac stuff. I've heard mroe than a few such comments on
David Lawrence's show too. I guess the point is that a lot of people use MS
products and go on with their lives. The OS on their computer just isn't
that big of a deal to most people, so listening to people get so hyped up
over it just doesn't make sense.

I used mostly Berkley Unix/Solaris w/ Oracle for the first two years I was
started working in development. Really liked it, still do. I was still
using it when Linux started getting big but never messed with Linux until
about 4 years ago. I have RH9 loaded on my machine and I work with Mono (not
as much as I'd like) when I can. But will I go to a Linux users group
meeting? Not in this town. I've been to one here and one in Charlotte and
everyone spent more time talking trash about Windows (and IIS in particular)
than anything technological. I know, this is probably just two isolated
groups and all that, but the point is that many advocates turn people off to
OSS (to be honest, my post was probably better suited to OSS on the whole).
The whole Micro$oft, Windo$ and all that other crap is an annoying
distraction and while trivial, it's indicative about what most discussions
turn into when you talk about those people.

Also, I think Bailo is a pretty funny dude and actually have come to enjoy
his posts. And I know many of the COLA people are cool and don't act like
they forgot to take their lithium but the ones that do are quite annoying.
And PR wise, if these cats weren't so rude and annoying, I think Linux would
be a lot more attractive to many folks.

But I'm just some Wintroll who uses Outlook Express so that automatically
disqualifies everything I have to say. Didn't mean to be offensive if I
was, just sort of got annoyed by a few of them again.

Bill
Jul 21 '05 #6
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Hi Tom:
"Tom B." <to*@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:c8**********@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
[...]
http://msmvps.com/williamryan/posts/6569.aspx [...]
So you're saying that the those whom you take to be "Linux advocates" in
c.o.l.a. (you mentioned John Bailo and Liam Slider) are the biggest
obstacle to the success of open-source.

Thanks for the laugh.


Well, it was said somewhat flippantly. However I do think that if many of
the 'advocates' encouraged people to use Linux and OSS without calling them
stupid if they like Windows, it'd have a better image.


The newsgroup c.o.l.a. is so full of Linux-bashing, and many other kinds
of, trolls that it can't be taken as representative of the Linux
community as a whole.

While there may still be some Linux advocacy in c.o.l.a., the troll
posts and subsequent flaming seem to take precedence these days. Due to
this, several "real" Linux advocates have ceased to participate in this
newsgroup any more, from what I've read. Longer-term c.o.l.a.
participants would know more about this than me, though.
[...]

But I'm just some Wintroll who uses Outlook Express so that automatically
disqualifies everything I have to say. Didn't mean to be offensive if I
was, just sort of got annoyed by a few of them again.


I guess that it's easy (for me, at least) to be a bit hyper-sensitive in
c.o.l.a. with the seemingly constant barrage of anti-Linux,
FUD-spreading trolls we get in here. I'd say that you're free to use
whichever software you like; but if I know of alternatives which I
believe are better, and I think that you are ignorant of them, I'd
probably /suggest/ them to you.

Linux is largely about freedom, so Linux advocacy is largely about
freedom advocacy.

Just my 0.02.

--
"My way of joking is to tell the truth; it's the funniest joke in the
world." - Unknown
Jul 21 '05 #7
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Well, it was said somewhat flippantly. However I do think that if many of
the 'advocates' encouraged people to use Linux and OSS without calling them
stupid if they like Windows, it'd have a better image.


Liking Windows doesn't make you stupid, it makes you ignorant.

But hey, when you have a multi-billion dollar company, founded on the
premise of keeping people ignorant about their computers, and the
operating system they run, so that they can pay some 'MCSE' or 'MVP' to
come fix an operating system that should not have been let on the
Internet to begin with.

People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.

Thats one of the reasons people who have formed Windows habits find it
so difficult to migrate, they are so used to having their hand held and
choices made for them or without even letting them know a choice was
available, that it freaks them out having to actually make up their own
mind.

'liking' windows and 'respecting' are 2 different things, when I want to
play a game, or work in Adobe, I flip into WindowsXP to do it, as for
gaming, now that I have the ati drivers installed, I'm having tons of
fun playing ut2k4 20% faster than under Windoze.

Windows has it place and its purpose, but unlike what Microsoft wishes,
it is /NOT/ on the Internet.
Jul 21 '05 #8
Tom B. wrote:

The newsgroup c.o.l.a. is so full of Linux-bashing, and many other kinds
of, trolls that it can't be taken as representative of the Linux
community as a whole.
What bashing? The number of threads or posts within threads devote to
Linux Advocacy far outnumber the troll posts.
While there may still be some Linux advocacy in c.o.l.a., the troll
posts and subsequent flaming seem to take precedence these days. Due to
this, several "real" Linux advocates have ceased to participate in this
newsgroup any more, from what I've read. Longer-term c.o.l.a.
participants would know more about this than me, though.
Look. For a globally read newsgroup, telling me about installing a
distro at the local senior center is touching -- but, unless providing
some generalized information, hardly relevant.
Linux is largely about freedom, so Linux advocacy is largely about
freedom advocacy.


And FREEDOM is about throwing off the yoke of oppression. You sound
like some mam-by pam-by Liberal who thinks the world is all about
/choice/. Wake Up my Bleeding Heart friend. In a world where a
Desparate Man such as Martin Taylor can inflict his Newspeak on us with
a barrage of unwanted dis-information using Airborne Express -- there is
no Equality. In a world where we are all *forced* to contribute to
building a wing on the Gate$ Ca$tle because MSFT is locked into the 401k
stock funds and because our Federal, State and Local governments still
purchase MicroCrapWare with our tax money -- there is no *CHOICE* -- you
stupid dumshit, you.
Jul 21 '05 #9


--

W.G. Ryan, eMVP

http://forums.devbuzz.com/
http://www.knowdotnet.com/williamryan.html
http://www.msmvps.com/WilliamRyan/
"Tom B." <to*@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:c8**********@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Hi Tom:
"Tom B." <to*@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:c8**********@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:

[...]
http://msmvps.com/williamryan/posts/6569.aspx [...]

So you're saying that the those whom you take to be "Linux advocates" in
c.o.l.a. (you mentioned John Bailo and Liam Slider) are the biggest
obstacle to the success of open-source.

Thanks for the laugh.
Well, it was said somewhat flippantly. However I do think that if many of the 'advocates' encouraged people to use Linux and OSS without calling them stupid if they like Windows, it'd have a better image.


The newsgroup c.o.l.a. is so full of Linux-bashing, and many other kinds
of, trolls that it can't be taken as representative of the Linux
community as a whole.


-- I agree. I'm actually going to post a clarification about this b/c I
think I came off a little different than what I intended to

While there may still be some Linux advocacy in c.o.l.a., the troll
posts and subsequent flaming seem to take precedence these days. Due to
this, several "real" Linux advocates have ceased to participate in this
newsgroup any more, from what I've read. Longer-term c.o.l.a.
participants would know more about this than me, though. -- Yes and that's unfortunate. However, I guess my original point was that
it's these type of people that yack the loudest and they are often the 'face
of Linux' to much of the world. I know about 7 people that are true
professionals and also Linux users. They don't have time to waste spelling
Gates with a $ or engaging in most of that other stuff. The whole reason OSS
stuff is as good as it is is b/c there are a lot of serious and smart
professionals out there working on it. They however are usually to busy
being productive to waste getting in OS Freestyle battles or getting all
f***d off over top posting or people using Outlook express as their
newsreader.
[...]

But I'm just some Wintroll who uses Outlook Express so that automatically disqualifies everything I have to say. Didn't mean to be offensive if I
was, just sort of got annoyed by a few of them again.
I guess that it's easy (for me, at least) to be a bit hyper-sensitive in
c.o.l.a. with the seemingly constant barrage of anti-Linux,
FUD-spreading trolls we get in here. I'd say that you're free to use
whichever software you like; but if I know of alternatives which I
believe are better, and I think that you are ignorant of them, I'd
probably /suggest/ them to you.


--Yes I agree with you. I think being a partisan, particularly in this
arena is silly. You should keep your mind open and use what fits instead of
trying to fit square pegs into round holes. This, at least with the current
scenario is exemplified by people calling Windows users stupid b/c they
don't use Linux instead. Many people that got a computer late in the game
have enough trouble as it is learning how to use the thing. For them, a Mac
or a Windows PC is probably going to be easier to use up front. If they
decide they want more power or want the flexibility provided by an OS like
RH9, they can always move to it. But i see no value in berating people b/c
they disagree with you on an OS (I'm using 'you' in a general sense here)
and that seems to happen quite a bit. I'm not saying it's always the case,
but I know what I've seen, and I know more than a few other folks that have
had similar experience.
Linux is largely about freedom, so Linux advocacy is largely about
freedom advocacy. --It should be, I agree. And to be honest, I'm hard pressed to find one
thing I actually disagree with you about. It's a shame that people with
your attitude (not to mention decorum) are unfortunately eclispsed in that
NG by the trolls.

Anyway, I'm going to add a follow up to my other blog entry b/c if the Linux
'advocates' over there were just cool about stuff like you've been, there
wouldn't be anything to cricitize over there.

I defintely appreciate your perspective.

Bill


Just my 0.02.

--
"My way of joking is to tell the truth; it's the funniest joke in the
world." - Unknown

Jul 21 '05 #10
On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:40:10 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.


Of course, you're omitting the fact that there's a hell of a lot more
people now using computers - a lot of which would never have dreamed of
touching them before.

You obviously haven't met some of the people I have. People who were scared
of breaking the computer. People who couldn't figure out how to send an
email by themselves. People who just didn't *get* technology.

There are plenty of these people. They are your dentist, your aunt, your
mother. They are your postman, your boss, your lover. They are everywhere -
and they outnumber us.
--
No one ever got fired for blaming Microsoft.
Jul 21 '05 #11
The Lurking Horror wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:40:10 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.

Of course, you're omitting the fact that there's a hell of a lot more
people now using computers - a lot of which would never have dreamed of
touching them before.

You obviously haven't met some of the people I have. People who were scared
of breaking the computer. People who couldn't figure out how to send an
email by themselves. People who just didn't *get* technology.

There are plenty of these people. They are your dentist, your aunt, your
mother. They are your postman, your boss, your lover. They are everywhere -
and they outnumber us.


Yes, Windows users are still in the majority. But eventually they will
get Linux desktops.
Jul 21 '05 #12

"Philip Callan" <ca******@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:K5Mqc.535390$oR5.174740@pd7tw3no...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Well, it was said somewhat flippantly. However I do think that if many of the 'advocates' encouraged people to use Linux and OSS without calling them stupid if they like Windows, it'd have a better image.
Liking Windows doesn't make you stupid, it makes you ignorant.


---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have a
linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I do. I
have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP much
more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics and
multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant becase of
this? There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a killer
web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot more to
offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/ it's
current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)
But hey, when you have a multi-billion dollar company, founded on the
premise of keeping people ignorant about their computers, and the
operating system they run, so that they can pay some 'MCSE' or 'MVP' to
come fix an operating system that should not have been let on the
Internet to begin with. --That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the world who
aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their
perspsective, the better. Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to gain by
learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use Windows
and given the fact she ain't gonna be around much longer and doesn't want to
spend all her time learning grep.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to gain
by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct
corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so I can
go out and make money fixing it?

People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. --Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop me from
learning about other operating systems? Sure they can possibly keep me from
learning their trade secrets, but that's it. However there are tons of
examples one could cite that illustrate the exact opposite of your
contention.
People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency. --How can you make this claim? There are more people using computers now
than there were pre Win95. More people on the internet too. And even if
your claim is correct, all that would be is a correlation.. how that's a
cause and effect relationship or even could be is beyond me.

Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are
less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were in
1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that

Thats one of the reasons people who have formed Windows habits find it
so difficult to migrate, they are so used to having their hand held and
choices made for them or without even letting them know a choice was
available, that it freaks them out having to actually make up their own
mind.
--What about all of the people that know there are choices available but
choose Windows anyway? How, if Windows is so inferior, do they so
overwhelming choose it in the first place? Maybe, just maybe, a lot of
people want their hand held and the value of those alternatives isn't there
for them. Once again, going back to the average granny, do you really think
she cares about Media Player vs Real Player? Even if she knew the
difference, do you really think most people care?
'liking' windows and 'respecting' are 2 different things, when I want to
play a game, or work in Adobe, I flip into WindowsXP to do it, as for
gaming, now that I have the ati drivers installed, I'm having tons of
fun playing ut2k4 20% faster than under Windoze.

Windows has it place and its purpose, but unlike what Microsoft wishes,
it is /NOT/ on the Internet.


Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it?
If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then explain
why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about
Linux. Are all of those people just ignorant or could it be many of them
made a conscious, informed decision albeit one that you don't agree with?
That's a pretty broad statement to make and it's a bit presumptuous to claim
that everyone who's running Wind2k, Win 2003 server etc could only have done
so out of ignorance.
--

W.G. Ryan, eMVP

http://forums.devbuzz.com/
http://www.knowdotnet.com/williamryan.html
http://www.msmvps.com/WilliamRyan/
Jul 21 '05 #13
The Lurking Horror wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:40:10 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.

Of course, you're omitting the fact that there's a hell of a lot more
people now using computers - a lot of which would never have dreamed of
touching them before.

You obviously haven't met some of the people I have. People who were scared
of breaking the computer. People who couldn't figure out how to send an
email by themselves. People who just didn't *get* technology.

There are plenty of these people. They are your dentist, your aunt, your
mother. They are your postman, your boss, your lover. They are everywhere -
and they outnumber us.


And for people that have never touched a computer before, they have no
Window-ism's if you will, so they are virgin ground, they know of a
computer as an appliance, to get email or go on the web, if they bought
a linux pre-load, or had a friend build them a computer, and install
linux, the learning curve would be a little shorter, since they dont
have to un-learn behaviors.

And if I felt that my client was 'scared of breaking it' I /most/
assuredly would not install Windows, because unlike in linux, a
'regular' user account /can/ kill windows.

If they are afraid of breaking their computer, maybe it's because of all
the horror stories they heard from their friends/family about their
horrible windows machine that crashes all the time, or 'freezes' etc etc

They outnumber us, but if we give them an OS that they don't have to be
afraid of, and encourage them to learn it, pretty soon they are far more
proficient than Windows would have made them, and they are capable of
helping/teaching someone else.

As for not meeting some of the people you have, I'm pretty sure I
haven't met /any/ of the people you have, but I've met many classes of
computer user over the years, from attempting to teach basic computers
to immigrants taking ESL with a non-profit, to re-networking my church,
and many years of technical work, friends family and word of mouth.

I've only had one client tell me explicity that he didnt want to know a
'damn thing about that machine' just to put it in the room where the
'damn broken one' was, and to make sure their data made it across.

He knew what the machine was 'supposedly' doing, but it was all out of
sight out of mind type thing, obviously for a unattended box, I didnt
use windows, its now running Linux / Samba instead. Plus it firewalls
the office :)

Most everyone else wanted to watch what I was doing, and expressed a
desire to learn, these are the people that linux is good for, the more
you use it, the more you understand about the machine you use as a tool,
and as a side effect, you get more efficient.
Jul 21 '05 #14
On Wed, 19 May 2004 17:51:56 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
The Lurking Horror wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:40:10 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too. People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.

Of course, you're omitting the fact that there's a hell of a lot more
people now using computers - a lot of which would never have dreamed of
touching them before.

You obviously haven't met some of the people I have. People who were scared
of breaking the computer. People who couldn't figure out how to send an
email by themselves. People who just didn't *get* technology.

There are plenty of these people. They are your dentist, your aunt, your
mother. They are your postman, your boss, your lover. They are everywhere -
and they outnumber us.


And for people that have never touched a computer before, they have no
Window-ism's if you will, so they are virgin ground, they know of a
computer as an appliance, to get email or go on the web, if they bought
a linux pre-load, or had a friend build them a computer, and install
linux, the learning curve would be a little shorter, since they dont
have to un-learn behaviors.

And if I felt that my client was 'scared of breaking it' I /most/
assuredly would not install Windows, because unlike in linux, a
'regular' user account /can/ kill windows.

If they are afraid of breaking their computer, maybe it's because of all
the horror stories they heard from their friends/family about their
horrible windows machine that crashes all the time, or 'freezes' etc etc

They outnumber us, but if we give them an OS that they don't have to be
afraid of, and encourage them to learn it, pretty soon they are far more
proficient than Windows would have made them, and they are capable of
helping/teaching someone else.


Sorry, you just lost your audience right there. Most people don't want to
learn it, help others learn it, or teach others how to use it. They just
want their email. They want to surf the web. That's it.
As for not meeting some of the people you have, I'm pretty sure I
haven't met /any/ of the people you have, but I've met many classes of
computer user over the years, from attempting to teach basic computers
to immigrants taking ESL with a non-profit, to re-networking my church,
and many years of technical work, friends family and word of mouth.

I've only had one client tell me explicity that he didnt want to know a
'damn thing about that machine' just to put it in the room where the
'damn broken one' was, and to make sure their data made it across.


This is the norm.
--
No one ever got fired for blaming Microsoft.
Jul 21 '05 #15
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have a
linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I do. I
Then you would be helping to spread FUD about Linux as a server OS. In
other words, helping Gate$ and Ball-Me to keep Linux off the desktop --
where it belongs.
have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP much
more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics and
multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant becase of
this?
No, you're just several thousand bucks lighter in the wallet than
someone who can do the same on Linux.

There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a killer
web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot more to
offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/ it's
current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)
There's also PostgreSQL
--That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the world who
aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their
perspsective, the better.
But a computer that is a swiss cheese to viruses and crashes just will
doing simple web browsing is not /easier/ -- face it, M$ is just
selling people defective equipment. Pretty soon that MVP is going to
look like a badge from Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard.
Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to gain by
learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use Windows
??? See -- that is the stupidiest thing ever written. You're
grandmother knows that she can send email using the TCP/IP protocol with
any OS that can network TCP/IP. Go ahead. Ask Gramma. She'll know.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to gain by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct
corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so I can
go out and make money fixing it?
DING DING DING. WE HAVE A WINNER. DENSE BOY FIGURED IT OUT !!!!

--Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop me from
learning about other operating systems?
1. Giving $$$ to schools under the guise of a phoney /Foundation/.

2. Using $$$ to buy off corporate leaders.

3. Subverting the Constitution and the Justice Department, making a
mockery of civil law, etc. etc. etc.
Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are
less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were in
1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that
Can you believe that the Soviet Union fell behind in technology during
the Stalin era because of suppression of outside facts?

Can you then believe that the U.S. with it's centrally controlled media,
which can be bought by M$ millions, might be brainwashing its people,
all the while the rest of the world is switching to Linux -- leaving the
US in a /backward/ state?
Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it?
If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then explain
why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about
Linux.


So they 'find out' about linux. Suppose they work for Citibank. Are
they going to bring in their own copy of Linux and install it? Get real.
Jul 21 '05 #16
The Lurking Horror wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2004 17:51:56 GMT, Philip Callan wrote:
They outnumber us, but if we give them an OS that they don't have to be
afraid of, and encourage them to learn it, pretty soon they are far more
proficient than Windows would have made them, and they are capable of
helping/teaching someone else.

Sorry, you just lost your audience right there. Most people don't want to
learn it, help others learn it, or teach others how to use it. They just
want their email. They want to surf the web. That's it.


You have to learn the basics, no matter what OS, and nothing says they
/have/ to assist others, just that after extend use of linux they will
be /capable/ of assisting others.

Like the MVP's, its a choice, they choose to assist others if that is in
their nature.

If they just want their email and the web, they should sell their
computer and buy WebTV, the web is a AFTERTHOUGHT, the Internet exists
without it you know, you dont need a P4 or 64bit processor to surf the
web and read email unless you run longhorn beta's :)
As for not meeting some of the people you have, I'm pretty sure I
haven't met /any/ of the people you have, but I've met many classes of
computer user over the years, from attempting to teach basic computers
to immigrants taking ESL with a non-profit, to re-networking my church,
and many years of technical work, friends family and word of mouth.

I've only had one client tell me explicity that he didnt want to know a
'damn thing about that machine' just to put it in the room where the
'damn broken one' was, and to make sure their data made it across.

This is the norm.


This is 1 client, out of I would guestimate, maybe about 250-300 in the
last 10+yrs of work.

This may be the norm for business managers in medium-large size
companies, or in the US, but I assure you Canadians are not so lax when
it comes to understanding or learning about the things they use each day.
Jul 21 '05 #17
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
"Philip Callan" <ca******@shaw.ca> wrote in message
Liking Windows doesn't make you stupid, it makes you ignorant.

---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC.
Then you realize that each system has its strengths, and show an open
mind. Mac's are sweet for video editing, my p4 rocks, but there are days
I wish I had a G5, thats for sure :)
But hey, when you have a multi-billion dollar company, founded on the
premise of keeping people ignorant about their computers, and the
operating system they run, so that they can pay some 'MCSE' or 'MVP' to
come fix an operating system that should not have been let on the
Internet to begin with.
--That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the world who
aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their
perspsective, the better.


You've obviously never seen a properly configured Linux terminal server
setup, 1 server, 25 stations, restricted applications for feeding orders
into the DB, nothing accessible/exported to the desktop /other than what
is needed/, if they login using the network account, they can get on the
web, send email, even use some IM (no files) but when they do so, they
are not in the group that can run/access the db and its associated pieces.

Ease of use, click click, web browser, click click, mail, boy thats hard.
Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
complex but powerful os.
Like downloading huge patches? Figuring out which patch to step out of
when it breaks existing applications or settings? Updating your virus
definitions? Running AdAware to clean some of the crap out of your
registry? manually editing registry keys out to prevent a virus from
auto-loading?

Yeah, learning to handle a fickle and at times /useless/ OS over and
over is much better than learning to do it properly ONCE.

What the hell does my grandmother have to gain by
learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use Windows
Protection from a majority of viruses? freedom from the upgrade gerbil
wheel? freedom of her own machine and not having to agree to invasive
EULA's?

How do you know most of the people she knows use windows? I doubt you
asked, and you know what, /I doubt she asked either/.

The OS has fsck all to do with Web and Email.
and given the fact she ain't gonna be around much longer and doesn't want to
spend all her time learning grep.
Great, WHY WOULD SHE HAVE TO?

See, You obviously havent used linux in a while, if you assume that it
is all CLI, or only useable via the CLI.

There are people who change their Oil (clicking in a configuration
screen in a GUI) and people who change their transmission (CLI)

Depending on what you /want/ to do, dictates the commands/programs you
should familiarize yourself with.

You can easily configure a useable system that will access the web, play
mp3's, send email, watch flash animations, and most streaming movie
formats, that /never/ required a person to go to the CLI.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to gain
by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct
corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so I can
go out and make money fixing it?


Uhh.... /YES/

Being a MVP, you may not know this, but have you looked at the Course,
and TEST fee's to obtain Microsoft Certifications recently?

Do you know how much money they made off the thousands of monkeys that
went through the MCSE program in the 90's ?

And all those people have (hopefully) started by fixing the machines,
and now (MS hopes) have advanced in their positions enough to influence
the purchasing of new machines/licensing.

Thay are the 'Microslaves' that people joke about, they have learned to
fix a inherently instable system, and their job depends on people 1)
Continuing to use the unstable Operating System and 2) Relying on
SOMEONE ELSE to fix it.
People are not stupid, everyone can /learn/, but Microsoft doesnt want
them too.


--Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop me from
learning about other operating systems?


Bullshit, you take a look at the major textbooks for people taking their
MBA, there is little to no reference to linux, and its always tagged as
a 'hobbyist' OS, even though by the times many of these textbooks were
printed, linux was 10+ years old, and in major use as webservers and
databases, and had been adopted by IBM.

Microsoft has paid for 1000's of studies, knocking linux and supressing
its adpotion as long as possible, if you doubt me, look back to the
original Halloween documents, and realize the tactics they are willing
to use to suppress YOUR (the consumers) choices, and knowledge of
alternatives.
People knew /MORE/ about the computers they ran before
Windows95 hit the streets, since then its been a gradual decline in
average proficiency.


--How can you make this claim? There are more people using computers now
than there were pre Win95. More people on the internet too. And even if
your claim is correct, all that would be is a correlation.. how that's a
cause and effect relationship or even could be is beyond me.

Because it was Windows 95+ and its ease-of-use for every 12 year old
with a AOL CD that filled the lower reaches of the net with fuckwits and
trolls.

The Internet was not perfect, but pre WWW and pre Win95, the average
intelligence of a Internet user was generally higher, and they tended to
be a bit more polite, because there were not as many ways to hide behind
anonimity.

Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are
less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were in
1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that
Sorry to dissapoint, but I /do/ believe it.

It used to take some skill, and intelligence to get on the Internet, or
to use a computer in general, reduce the amount of skill and
intelligence required, guess what, MATURITY and RESPONSIBILITY are
lowered as well.

You cant expect a 13 year old kid to clean his room, or walk the dog on
a regular basis sometimes, he's going to worry about patching his
operating system?

Windows pushed the 'entry level' for computers and the Internet /below
the waterline/ and we are all drowning in Viruses and spam /because of it/
Thats one of the reasons people who have formed Windows habits find it
so difficult to migrate, they are so used to having their hand held and
choices made for them or without even letting them know a choice was
available, that it freaks them out having to actually make up their own
mind.

--What about all of the people that know there are choices available but
choose Windows anyway?


Good for them, I just wish they would STFU about their viruses and
worms, and keep the hell off the internet if they cant excercise due
diligence.
How, if Windows is so inferior, do they so
overwhelming choose it in the first place?
Oh come now, you may be MVP, but dont kiss their ass acting stupid too much.

Pre-loads.

You and I know that as long as contracts exist with OEM's that Microsoft
will still count for a higher % of 'desktops shipped'

But HP, IBM, Dell etc are waking up.

And once they start selling larger numbers of desktops, they will be
able to undercut those retailers that still pre-load windows and charge
the windows tax on a new machine, and if /they/ want to stay in
business, MS changes its pricing, or they change the OS they load in
order to stay competitive.
Maybe, just maybe, a lot of
people want their hand held and the value of those alternatives isn't there
for them.
Then they should get a Mac, by far the most user-friendly systems I've
had to work with, and a nice common hardware base makes diagnosing
easier, less driver conflicts.
'liking' windows and 'respecting' are 2 different things, when I want to
play a game, or work in Adobe, I flip into WindowsXP to do it, as for
gaming, now that I have the ati drivers installed, I'm having tons of
fun playing ut2k4 20% faster than under Windoze.

Windows has it place and its purpose, but unlike what Microsoft wishes,
it is /NOT/ on the Internet.

Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it?
If it's the former you have to be kidding.


It is BOTH, and I'm not.

It is not secure enough to be allowed unprotected on the Internet. It
can go on the Internet via a firewall or router, but I honestly believe
that with the rapidity that Worms and Viruses are being released and
developed, and the lag time between release and a Antivirus signature
file being available, no Windows box should be DIRECTLY connected to the
Internet.
If it's the latter, then explain
why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about
Linux.
Maybe because MS keeps lying to them about linux having a higher TCO,
and filling their mailboxes with bullshit studies about how difficult
and expensive migration will be, and how much better the next windows
will be....
Trust me, as more and more companies are calculating the patch/antivirus
costs in Overtime into their TCO's they are realizing that instead of
saving them money, their windows machines are COSTING them money.....

Are all of those people just ignorant or could it be many of them
made a conscious, informed decision albeit one that you don't agree with?
I think you confuse ignorant (unaware of a fact) with ignorant (belligerent)

If they chose Windows machines over linux for a Internet facing site,
then they didn't make an 'informed' decision.

I don't think any CEO who SERIOUSLY read up on the security flaws and
problems with windows, and consulted anyone without a vested interest in
Microsoft, would willingly choose to expose their company data to the
world by choosing an insecure server.
That's a pretty broad statement to make and it's a bit presumptuous to claim
that everyone who's running Wind2k, Win 2003 server etc could only have done
so out of ignorance.


I wont make any statement about W2k3, as I havent tried it yet, I have a
perfectly suitable server and desktop OS in one, and I have no wish to
step any further down the upgrade wheel, and I tell clients the same,
the longer they stick with Microsoft, the harder it will be to break
away, even non-techies understand vendor lock in.

Plus, showing business's the Ernie Ball story, and how Microsoft/BSA
treats their customers, and how desperate they are to gouge more $ out
of people is a wake up call.

Anyone who /pays/ thousands of dollars for an operating system that
isn't guaranteed for /any use/ with the manufacturer absolving
themselves of all legal responsibility in event of a problem, and taking
up 3 pages of legalese restricting your rights, and increasing their
own.....

Yes, I call that ignorance.
Jul 21 '05 #18
Can you please restrict this type of discussion to COLA and other advocacy
groups?
This group is intended to serve technical dotnet developers and users, not
advocates for or against a particular company, issue, business model, etc.
Thanks

--
Dino Chiesa
Microsoft Developer Division
d i n o c h @ OmitThis . m i c r o s o f t . c o m

"Ministry Of Jute" <al*******@jute.net> wrote in message
news:5c****************@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have a
linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I do. I
Then you would be helping to spread FUD about Linux as a server OS. In
other words, helping Gate$ and Ball-Me to keep Linux off the desktop --
where it belongs.
have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP much more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics and
multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant becase of
this?


No, you're just several thousand bucks lighter in the wallet than
someone who can do the same on Linux.

There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a killer web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot more to offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/ it's current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)


There's also PostgreSQL
--That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the world who aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their perspsective, the better.


But a computer that is a swiss cheese to viruses and crashes just will
doing simple web browsing is not /easier/ -- face it, M$ is just
selling people defective equipment. Pretty soon that MVP is going to
look like a badge from Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard.
Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to gain by learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use Windows
??? See -- that is the stupidiest thing ever written. You're
grandmother knows that she can send email using the TCP/IP protocol with
any OS that can network TCP/IP. Go ahead. Ask Gramma. She'll know.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to

gain by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so I can go out and make money fixing it?


DING DING DING. WE HAVE A WINNER. DENSE BOY FIGURED IT OUT !!!!

--Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop me from learning about other operating systems?


1. Giving $$$ to schools under the guise of a phoney /Foundation/.

2. Using $$$ to buy off corporate leaders.

3. Subverting the Constitution and the Justice Department, making a
mockery of civil law, etc. etc. etc.
Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were in
1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that


Can you believe that the Soviet Union fell behind in technology during
the Stalin era because of suppression of outside facts?

Can you then believe that the U.S. with it's centrally controlled media,
which can be bought by M$ millions, might be brainwashing its people,
all the while the rest of the world is switching to Linux -- leaving the
US in a /backward/ state?
Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it? If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then explain why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about
Linux.


So they 'find out' about linux. Suppose they work for Citibank. Are
they going to bring in their own copy of Linux and install it? Get real.

Jul 21 '05 #19
Sorry about that Dino, I know better than responding to this.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP Windows - Embedded

www.devbuzz.com
www.knowdotnet.com
http://www.msmvps.com/williamryan/
"Dino Chiesa [Microsoft]" <di****@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Can you please restrict this type of discussion to COLA and other advocacy
groups?
This group is intended to serve technical dotnet developers and users, not
advocates for or against a particular company, issue, business model, etc.
Thanks

--
Dino Chiesa
Microsoft Developer Division
d i n o c h @ OmitThis . m i c r o s o f t . c o m

"Ministry Of Jute" <al*******@jute.net> wrote in message
news:5c****************@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have a linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I do. I

Then you would be helping to spread FUD about Linux as a server OS. In
other words, helping Gate$ and Ball-Me to keep Linux off the desktop --
where it belongs.
have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP much more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics and
multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant becase
of this?
No, you're just several thousand bucks lighter in the wallet than
someone who can do the same on Linux.

There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a killer web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot more to
offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/ it's current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)
There's also PostgreSQL
--That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the
world who aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their perspsective, the better.
But a computer that is a swiss cheese to viruses and crashes just will
doing simple web browsing is not /easier/ -- face it, M$ is just
selling people defective equipment. Pretty soon that MVP is going to
look like a badge from Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard.
Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to
gain by learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use Windows

??? See -- that is the stupidiest thing ever written. You're
grandmother knows that she can send email using the TCP/IP protocol with
any OS that can network TCP/IP. Go ahead. Ask Gramma. She'll know.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to gain by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so
I can go out and make money fixing it?


DING DING DING. WE HAVE A WINNER. DENSE BOY FIGURED IT OUT !!!!

--Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop me from learning about other operating systems?


1. Giving $$$ to schools under the guise of a phoney /Foundation/.

2. Using $$$ to buy off corporate leaders.

3. Subverting the Constitution and the Justice Department, making a
mockery of civil law, etc. etc. etc.
Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were
in 1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that


Can you believe that the Soviet Union fell behind in technology during
the Stalin era because of suppression of outside facts?

Can you then believe that the U.S. with it's centrally controlled media,
which can be bought by M$ millions, might be brainwashing its people,
all the while the rest of the world is switching to Linux -- leaving the
US in a /backward/ state?
Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running

it? If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then explain why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about
Linux.


So they 'find out' about linux. Suppose they work for Citibank. Are
they going to bring in their own copy of Linux and install it? Get

real.


Jul 21 '05 #20
no problem,

maybe we need to establish a
microsoft.public.dotnet.advocacy
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.flames
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.ridicule
and so on

seriously, what do you think? should we make a space for this sort of
discussion?
I think the current dotnet.* groups are not well defined and differentiated,
so maybe we just need to be clearer about what goes where, and create a few
new groups to serve this constituency.

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Sorry about that Dino, I know better than responding to this.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP Windows - Embedded

www.devbuzz.com
www.knowdotnet.com
http://www.msmvps.com/williamryan/
"Dino Chiesa [Microsoft]" <di****@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Can you please restrict this type of discussion to COLA and other advocacy
groups?
This group is intended to serve technical dotnet developers and users, not advocates for or against a particular company, issue, business model, etc. Thanks

--
Dino Chiesa
Microsoft Developer Division
d i n o c h @ OmitThis . m i c r o s o f t . c o m

"Ministry Of Jute" <al*******@jute.net> wrote in message
news:5c****************@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
William Ryan eMVP wrote:

> ---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have
a > linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I
do.
I
Then you would be helping to spread FUD about Linux as a server OS.
In other words, helping Gate$ and Ball-Me to keep Linux off the desktop -- where it belongs.

> have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP
much
> more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics and
> multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant
becase
of > this?

No, you're just several thousand bucks lighter in the wallet than
someone who can do the same on Linux.
>There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
> there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a killer
> web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot more
to
> offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/

it's
> current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)

There's also PostgreSQL

> --That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the

world
who
> aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from

their
> perspsective, the better.

But a computer that is a swiss cheese to viruses and crashes just will
doing simple web browsing is not /easier/ -- face it, M$ is just
selling people defective equipment. Pretty soon that MVP is going to
look like a badge from Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard.

> Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
> complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to

gain
by
> learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use

Windows

??? See -- that is the stupidiest thing ever written. You're
grandmother knows that she can send email using the TCP/IP protocol

with any OS that can network TCP/IP. Go ahead. Ask Gramma. She'll know.

As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have to gain
> by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is
going direct
> corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just
so I
can
> go out and make money fixing it?

DING DING DING. WE HAVE A WINNER. DENSE BOY FIGURED IT OUT !!!!
> --Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they stop
me from
> learning about other operating systems?

1. Giving $$$ to schools under the guise of a phoney /Foundation/.

2. Using $$$ to buy off corporate leaders.

3. Subverting the Constitution and the Justice Department, making a
mockery of civil law, etc. etc. etc.

> Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole,
people are
> less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they
were in > 1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that

Can you believe that the Soviet Union fell behind in technology during
the Stalin era because of suppression of outside facts?

Can you then believe that the U.S. with it's centrally controlled
media, which can be bought by M$ millions, might be brainwashing its people,
all the while the rest of the world is switching to Linux -- leaving the US in a /backward/ state?

> Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it?
> If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then

explain
> why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out

about > Linux.

So they 'find out' about linux. Suppose they work for Citibank. Are
they going to bring in their own copy of Linux and install it? Get

real.



Jul 21 '05 #21


--
W.G. Ryan MVP Windows - Embedded

www.devbuzz.com
www.knowdotnet.com
http://www.msmvps.com/williamryan/
"Dino Chiesa [Microsoft]" <di****@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:uG*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
no problem,

maybe we need to establish a
microsoft.public.dotnet.advocacy
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.flames
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.ridicule
and so on

seriously, what do you think? I've heard some people mention this before. I think the whole advocacy
thing is sort of a joke but I guess it does afford a forum wherein non
development stuff can be discussed. However, if you were to do it, make
sure that it can only be accessed with Outlook Express, force people to Top
Post and prohibit words like Mafia$oft, Micro$oft, Gate$ etc This would
guarantee that the COLA guys don't come over and bother everyone. A
microsoft.public.dotnet.vbnetVersusC# would be a great one ;-).

The more I think about it the more I like the ideas you mentioned although
the flame and ridicule ones would probably get out of hand quickly. I'm
sure it'd be pretty funny though, just like the SmartPhone NG. Maybe a
dotnet.general.development and dotnet.general.discussion would work. This
is definitely something that's worth throwing out there though and getting
some feedback about the ideal grouping..... Definitely think you are on to
something here.

Thanks again,

Bill

should we make a space for this sort of discussion?
I think the current dotnet.* groups are not well defined and differentiated, so maybe we just need to be clearer about what goes where, and create a few new groups to serve this constituency.

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Sorry about that Dino, I know better than responding to this.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP Windows - Embedded

www.devbuzz.com
www.knowdotnet.com
http://www.msmvps.com/williamryan/
"Dino Chiesa [Microsoft]" <di****@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Can you please restrict this type of discussion to COLA and other advocacy groups?
This group is intended to serve technical dotnet developers and users, not advocates for or against a particular company, issue, business model, etc. Thanks

--
Dino Chiesa
Microsoft Developer Division
d i n o c h @ OmitThis . m i c r o s o f t . c o m

"Ministry Of Jute" <al*******@jute.net> wrote in message
news:5c****************@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> William Ryan eMVP wrote:
>
> > ---What if you like Unix/Linux, Windows and MAC. For instance, I have
a
> > linux firewall and use Apache as a web server for a lot of what I do.
I
>
> Then you would be helping to spread FUD about Linux as a server OS.
In > other words, helping Gate$ and Ball-Me to keep Linux off the desktop -- > where it belongs.
>
> > have a good amount of work that I need to do with Office and I find XP
much
> > more convenient to use on my laptop. I also find doing graphics
and > > multimedia to be the most pleasant on Mac OS X. Am I ignorant
becase
of
> > this?
>
> No, you're just several thousand bucks lighter in the wallet than
> someone who can do the same on Linux.
>
>
> >There's stuff about all three environments that I like just like
> > there's stuff I don't like. As far as OSS in general, Apache is a
killer
> > web server. However I think both Oracle and SQL Server have a lot

more
to
> > offer in terms of convenience and power than say, MySql (at least w/ it's
> > current implementation running 0.9.2 command center)
>
> There's also PostgreSQL
>
> > --That's not the premise of MS. There are a lot of people in the

world
who
> > aren't all that into computers and the easier they are to use, from their
> > perspsective, the better.
>
> But a computer that is a swiss cheese to viruses and crashes just will > doing simple web browsing is not /easier/ -- face it, M$ is just
> selling people defective equipment. Pretty soon that MVP is going to > look like a badge from Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard.
>
> > Some people have other stuff to do than learn a
> > complex but powerful os. What the hell does my grandmother have to gain
by
> > learning Linux over Windows when most of the people she knows use
Windows
>
> ??? See -- that is the stupidiest thing ever written. You're
> grandmother knows that she can send email using the TCP/IP protocol

with > any OS that can network TCP/IP. Go ahead. Ask Gramma. She'll
know. >
> As far as the second part of your comment, what would Microsoft have

to gain
> > by employing such a strategy? Do you really think Bill Gates is going direct
> > corporate policy in such a way that he'll build inferior stuff just so
I
can
> > go out and make money fixing it?
>
> DING DING DING. WE HAVE A WINNER. DENSE BOY FIGURED IT OUT !!!!
>
>
> > --Microsoft has NO control whatsoever over this. How can they
stop
me from
> > learning about other operating systems?
>
> 1. Giving $$$ to schools under the guise of a phoney /Foundation/.
>
> 2. Using $$$ to buy off corporate leaders.
>
> 3. Subverting the Constitution and the Justice Department, making a
> mockery of civil law, etc. etc. etc.
>
> > Nonetheless, are you really trying to argue that on the whole, people are
> > less computer literate in the US for instance, in 2004 than they were
in
> > 1995? Come on, you can't possibly believe that
>
> Can you believe that the Soviet Union fell behind in technology

during > the Stalin era because of suppression of outside facts?
>
> Can you then believe that the U.S. with it's centrally controlled

media, > which can be bought by M$ millions, might be brainwashing its people, > all the while the rest of the world is switching to Linux -- leaving the > US in a /backward/ state?
>
> > Do you mean as a desktop accessing the internet or as servers running it?
> > If it's the former you have to be kidding. If it's the latter, then explain
> > why so many people use IIS and Windows even after they found out about > > Linux.
>
> So they 'find out' about linux. Suppose they work for Citibank. Are > they going to bring in their own copy of Linux and install it? Get

real.
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #22

"Dino Chiesa [Microsoft]" <di****@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:uG*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
no problem,

maybe we need to establish a
microsoft.public.dotnet.advocacy
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.flames
and
microsoft.public.dotnet.ridicule
and so on

seriously, what do you think? should we make a space for this sort of
discussion?
I think the current dotnet.* groups are not well defined and
differentiated,
so maybe we just need to be clearer about what goes where, and create a
few
new groups to serve this constituency.


While I agree that it would be interesting and would (hopefully) allow those
of us who aren't interested in these discussions to avoid them, I don't
think it'll help with bailo one bit. He posts here to annoy, its interesting
that many of the COLA people call him a wintroll while here he is considered
a linux or java troll(or general idiot, you pick). Most of the posts here
aren't meant to be serious discussions, they are attacks meant to enrage and
start arguments. Which, IMHO, means that .general is a bigger, brighter
target than say, dotnet.advocacy would be.

Still, it might not be a bad idea to give people a forum to complain on and
pass on success stories, etc.
Jul 21 '05 #23
Hi Ministry Of Jute,

You wrote,
" In a world where we are all * forced *
to contribute to building a wing on the Gate$ Ca$tle
because MSFT is locked into the 401k stock funds
and because our Federal, State and Local governments
still purchase MicroCrapWare with our tax money --
there is no * CHOICE * -- you stupid dumshit, you. "

It's not that we are all slaves to Master Gates ...
it's just that Apple is always trying to dump
it's overpriced hardware on us,
so it refuses to allow it's OS to virtualize many devices.
( e.g. The AMD 64 comes to mind )

Also, Every Ton Dick and Harry who produces yet another
Linux distro doesn't have the resources
to virtualize many devices.
( e.g. No Trackball Explorer driver for SuSE )

Gates is just one puny man.
You can't blame him for what the entire world is doing,
including the armies of lawyers that are tying his hands.

Gates is not a demigod. Einstein was not a demigod.
Saddam is was not a demigod.

The reality is much Much more complex than that.
Jul 21 '05 #24
Jeff Relf wrote:
The reality is much Much more complex than that.


The defense of the Empowered and the Pharisee.

--
Bush-W-4
Jul 21 '05 #25

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