UML

[Mark Jerde]

I'm at the beginning of a web DB product and I'd like to use UML for
analysis, design, round-trip engineering and maintenance. I'm a MSDN
subscriber and have MS Visio for EA (10.0.525) and VS.NET 2002 installed. I
can install later versions if that makes sense.

- Rational XDE looks good except for the $5k price.

- Sparx' Enterprise Architect seems good for the price, but it's not
integrated with the VS.NET IDE.
http://www.sparxsystems.com.au/

- I used VisualUML in VB6 but I didn't like how the class diagrams tended
to come back from round trips functionally equivalent but more complicated.
It could have been operator error on my part -- there were lots of options.

- I used something in Delphi 5 that worked well but that was a long time
ago. Delphi didn't get reinstalled after a hard disk crash.

- Is Visio now a "full-fledged" UML tool for VS.NET?
Another consideration is the clients already have Visio so it would be very
beneficial to be able to exchange data.
Thanks in advance for suggestions and recommendations.

-- Mark

[Mark Jerde]

I see Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect advertizes UML.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...aoverview.aspx

Any feedback on how well it works versus other solutions?

Thanks.

-- Mark
Mark Jerde wrote:

I'm at the beginning of a web DB product and I'd like to use UML for
.... should have been "web DB project" ...
analysis, design, round-trip engineering and maintenance. I'm a MSDN
subscriber and have MS Visio for EA (10.0.525) and VS.NET 2002
installed. I can install later versions if that makes sense.

- Rational XDE looks good except for the $5k price.

- Sparx' Enterprise Architect seems good for the price, but it's
not integrated with the VS.NET IDE.
http://www.sparxsystems.com.au/

- I used VisualUML in VB6 but I didn't like how the class diagrams
tended to come back from round trips functionally equivalent but more
complicated. It could have been operator error on my part -- there
were lots of options.

- I used something in Delphi 5 that worked well but that was a
long time ago. Delphi didn't get reinstalled after a hard disk crash.

- Is Visio now a "full-fledged" UML tool for VS.NET?
Another consideration is the clients already have Visio so it would
be very beneficial to be able to exchange data.
Thanks in advance for suggestions and recommendations.

-- Mark

[rollasoc]

Been using Visio for EA for the last 14 months and it is a complete pain.

1) Crashes several times a day (including just disappearing for no appareent
reason).
2) Though you can reverse engineer, it isn't round trip as such (i.e it
doesn't update what is in the model, just adds another instance of a class
with all it's dependencies).
3) Doesn't include all the symbols I wanted to use
4) Throws up errors that make no sense. (like can't pass an interface
pointer as part of a function call).
5) I had to create a separate model for design, since once I'd added about
50 Use Cases and about 50 diagrams to the analysis model, it ground to a
near unusable halt.
6) Takes ages to move or delete an item.

So no it isn't a fully fledged UML tool. It is a drawing package with a
token gesture of modelling thrown in.

Saying that when it is behaving it is one of the better drawing tools. So
better than nothing but not a patch on something like Rose.

Saying that we have just got Visual UML, since it appears to do most of what
we require, but you said you didn't like that, so each to their own.

You might also want to pose this question in the following newsgroup. You
might get a more constructive answer.

microsoft.public.visio.software.modelling

Have fun

Rollasoc


"Mark Jerde" <ma********@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote in message
news:#f**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

I see Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect advertizes UML.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...aoverview.aspx

Any feedback on how well it works versus other solutions?

Thanks.

-- Mark
Mark Jerde wrote:

I'm at the beginning of a web DB product and I'd like to use UML for

... should have been "web DB project" ...

analysis, design, round-trip engineering and maintenance. I'm a MSDN
subscriber and have MS Visio for EA (10.0.525) and VS.NET 2002
installed. I can install later versions if that makes sense.

- Rational XDE looks good except for the $5k price.

- Sparx' Enterprise Architect seems good for the price, but it's
not integrated with the VS.NET IDE.
http://www.sparxsystems.com.au/

- I used VisualUML in VB6 but I didn't like how the class diagrams
tended to come back from round trips functionally equivalent but more
complicated. It could have been operator error on my part -- there
were lots of options.

- I used something in Delphi 5 that worked well but that was a
long time ago. Delphi didn't get reinstalled after a hard disk crash.

- Is Visio now a "full-fledged" UML tool for VS.NET?
Another consideration is the clients already have Visio so it would
be very beneficial to be able to exchange data.
Thanks in advance for suggestions and recommendations.

-- Mark

[Peter Huang]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for posting in the community.

I think there is some links in MSDN will instroduce you with feature of
Visio and how it integration with VS.NET.

Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Architect edition provides a full range of
design and modeling capabilities with the included and integrated Microsoft
Visio? toolset. Through the use of industry standard modeling methodology,
Unified Modeling Language (UML), Visual Studio .NET helps senior developers
and architects visually design applications and requirements. Visual Studio
.NET Enterprise Architect combines conceptual and physical database
modeling using Visio to deliver powerful Object Role Modeling (ORM)
functionality to architects.

FoodMovers: Building Distributed Applications using Microsoft Visual Studio
.NET
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvsent/htm
l/FoodMovers1.asp

A Guide to Building Enterprise Applications on the .NET Framework
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnbda/html/
guidenetapp.asp

Visio-Based Software and Database Modeling Solutions
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvisio02/h
tml/visdbcomp.asp

Step-by-Step Guide to Reverse Engineering Code into UML Diagrams with
Microsoft Visio 2000
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvisio00/h
tml/revengcode.asp

Best regards,

Peter Huang
Microsoft Online Partner Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Mark Jerde]

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like Visio for EA needs another release
or two before Rational has to get too scared. <g>

My experience with Visual UML was several years ago. No doubt it's much
better now. Their tech support was very good, and IIRC I made a couple
suggestions that made it into the product.

Do they have a Tutorial / Getting Started section of help? That was missing
in the VB6 edition and I spent a lot of time threashing trying to learn UML
and VisualUML at the same time.

-- Mark

rollasoc wrote:

Been using Visio for EA for the last 14 months and it is a complete
pain.

1) Crashes several times a day (including just disappearing for no
appareent reason).
2) Though you can reverse engineer, it isn't round trip as such (i.e
it doesn't update what is in the model, just adds another instance of
a class with all it's dependencies).
3) Doesn't include all the symbols I wanted to use
4) Throws up errors that make no sense. (like can't pass an
interface pointer as part of a function call).
5) I had to create a separate model for design, since once I'd added
about 50 Use Cases and about 50 diagrams to the analysis model, it
ground to a near unusable halt.
6) Takes ages to move or delete an item.

So no it isn't a fully fledged UML tool. It is a drawing package
with a token gesture of modelling thrown in.

Saying that when it is behaving it is one of the better drawing
tools. So better than nothing but not a patch on something like
Rose.

Saying that we have just got Visual UML, since it appears to do most
of what we require, but you said you didn't like that, so each to
their own.

You might also want to pose this question in the following newsgroup.
You might get a more constructive answer.

microsoft.public.visio.software.modelling

Have fun

Rollasoc


"Mark Jerde" <ma********@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote in message
news:#f**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

I see Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect advertizes UML.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...aoverview.aspx

Any feedback on how well it works versus other solutions?

Thanks.

-- Mark
Mark Jerde wrote:

I'm at the beginning of a web DB product and I'd like to use UML for

... should have been "web DB project" ...

analysis, design, round-trip engineering and maintenance. I'm a
MSDN subscriber and have MS Visio for EA (10.0.525) and VS.NET 2002
installed. I can install later versions if that makes sense.

- Rational XDE looks good except for the $5k price.

- Sparx' Enterprise Architect seems good for the price, but it's
not integrated with the VS.NET IDE.
http://www.sparxsystems.com.au/

- I used VisualUML in VB6 but I didn't like how the class
diagrams tended to come back from round trips functionally
equivalent but more complicated. It could have been operator error
on my part -- there
were lots of options.

- I used something in Delphi 5 that worked well but that was a
long time ago. Delphi didn't get reinstalled after a hard disk
crash.

- Is Visio now a "full-fledged" UML tool for VS.NET?
Another consideration is the clients already have Visio so it would
be very beneficial to be able to exchange data.
Thanks in advance for suggestions and recommendations.

-- Mark

[Mark Jerde]

Peter -- Thanks for posting. I'm currently using Visio and Word for Use
Case and basic UI design with the customer. When the time comes to start
generating code I hope to have a full round-trip UML tool for the
developers. Unfortunately it appears Visio isn't yet the answer, but no
doubt MS will get it there in the next release or two. ;-)

I'm still in the research & evaulation mode.

-- Mark

Peter Huang wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for posting in the community.

I think there is some links in MSDN will instroduce you with feature
of Visio and how it integration with VS.NET.

Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Architect edition provides a full range
of design and modeling capabilities with the included and integrated
Microsoft Visio? toolset. Through the use of industry standard
modeling methodology, Unified Modeling Language (UML), Visual Studio
.NET helps senior developers and architects visually design
applications and requirements. Visual Studio NET Enterprise Architect
combines conceptual and physical database
modeling using Visio to deliver powerful Object Role Modeling (ORM)
functionality to architects.

FoodMovers: Building Distributed Applications using Microsoft Visual
Studio NET
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvsent/htm l/FoodMovers1.asp

A Guide to Building Enterprise Applications on the .NET Framework
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnbda/html/ guidenetapp.asp

Visio-Based Software and Database Modeling Solutions
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvisio02/h tml/visdbcomp.asp

Step-by-Step Guide to Reverse Engineering Code into UML Diagrams with
Microsoft Visio 2000
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...us/dnvisio00/h tml/revengcode.asp

Best regards,

Peter Huang
Microsoft Online Partner Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.

[Peter Huang]

Hi Mark,

"This is a great idea for a future product enhancement. I'd recommend that
you forward the recommendation to the Microsoft Wish Program:

Microsoft offers several ways for you to send comments or suggestions about
Microsoft products. If you have suggestions for product enhancements that
you would like to see in future versions of Microsoft products, please
contact us using one of the methods listed later in this article.

Let us know how we can improve our products.

Product Enhancement suggestions can include:

" Improvements on existing products.
" Suggestions for additional features.
" Ways to make products easier to use.

World Wide Web - To send a comment or suggestion via the Web, use one of
the following methods:

" In Internet Explorer 6, click Send Feedback on the Help menu and then
click the link in the Product Suggestion section of the page that appears.
" In Windows XP, click Help and Support on the Start menu. Click Send your
feedback to Microsoft, and then fill out the Product Suggestion page that
appears.
" Visit the following Microsoft Web site: http://www.microsoft.com/ms.htm
" Click Microsoft.com Guide in the upper-right corner of the page and then
click Contact Us . Click the link in the Product Suggestion section of the
page that appears.
" Visit the following Microsoft Product Feedback Web site:
"http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp" and then complete and
submit the form.

E-mail - To send comments or suggestions via e-mail, use the following
Microsoft Wish Program e-mail address, ms****@microsoft.com.
FAX - To send comments or suggestions via FAX, use the following Microsoft
FAX number, [phone].

Each product suggestion is read by a member of our product feedback team,
classified for easy access, and routed to the product or service team to
drive Microsoft product and/or service improvements. Because we receive an
abundance of suggestions (over 69,000 suggestions a year!) we can't
guarantee that each request makes it into a final product or service. But
we can tell you that each suggestion has been received and is being
reviewed by the team that is most capable of addressing it.

All product or service suggestions received become the sole property of
Microsoft. Should a suggestion be implemented, Microsoft is under no
obligation to provide compensation.

Best regards,

Peter Huang
Microsoft Online Partner Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Mark Jerde]

Peter -- Thanks for the email. Sorry if I missed it, but is there a
specific email address for VS.NET suggestions?

Thanks.

-- Mark

Peter Huang wrote:

Hi Mark,

"This is a great idea for a future product enhancement. I'd recommend
that you forward the recommendation to the Microsoft Wish Program:

Microsoft offers several ways for you to send comments or suggestions
about Microsoft products. If you have suggestions for product
enhancements that you would like to see in future versions of
Microsoft products, please contact us using one of the methods listed
later in this article.

Let us know how we can improve our products.

Product Enhancement suggestions can include:

" Improvements on existing products.
" Suggestions for additional features.
" Ways to make products easier to use.

World Wide Web - To send a comment or suggestion via the Web, use one
of the following methods:

" In Internet Explorer 6, click Send Feedback on the Help menu and
then click the link in the Product Suggestion section of the page
that appears. " In Windows XP, click Help and Support on the Start
menu. Click Send your feedback to Microsoft, and then fill out the
Product Suggestion page that appears.
" Visit the following Microsoft Web site:
http://www.microsoft.com/ms.htm " Click Microsoft.com Guide in the
upper-right corner of the page and then click Contact Us . Click the
link in the Product Suggestion section of the page that appears.
" Visit the following Microsoft Product Feedback Web site:
"http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp" and then
complete and submit the form.

E-mail - To send comments or suggestions via e-mail, use the following
Microsoft Wish Program e-mail address, ms****@microsoft.com.
FAX - To send comments or suggestions via FAX, use the following
Microsoft FAX number, [phone].

Each product suggestion is read by a member of our product feedback
team, classified for easy access, and routed to the product or
service team to drive Microsoft product and/or service improvements.
Because we receive an abundance of suggestions (over 69,000
suggestions a year!) we can't guarantee that each request makes it
into a final product or service. But we can tell you that each
suggestion has been received and is being reviewed by the team that
is most capable of addressing it.

All product or service suggestions received become the sole property
of Microsoft. Should a suggestion be implemented, Microsoft is under
no obligation to provide compensation.

Best regards,

Peter Huang
Microsoft Online Partner Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.

[Peter Huang]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for posting in the community.

I think there is no such email address specially for VS.NET suggestion.

From the link in my last post,
http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp,

You may find a DropDown Box Procuct:
<Quote>
Let us know how we can improve our products.

Product enhancement suggestions can include:
Improvements on existing products
Suggestions for additional features
Ways to make our products easier to use
For assistance with Technical Support Issues,
Please click here

For additional information on Sales or Customer Service, Please click here

Product:
</Quote>
You may select Visual Studio .NET from the dropdown box.

Best regards,

Peter Huang
Microsoft Online Partner Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Mark Jerde]

Peter Huang wrote:

</Quote>
You may select Visual Studio .NET from the dropdown box.

Oh duh. My bozo bit was on. Sorry. ;-)

-- Mark