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What's the verdict on C# and Visual Studio .NET?

P: n/a
Hi.

I've not used C# yet but just ran across a premonition from 2 years ago
saying that C# would render C++ obsolete by this time. Has it?

Have most corporate developers migrated to C#? Is C++ used for new
development or just legacy apps? What about non corporate developers?

Microsoft really likes to hype the hell out of their stuff and often they
let it fall by the wayside. Like MFC.

What's the verdict on C#? Does it live up to the hype?

Also, I've seen quite a bit of negative comments about Visual Studio .NET.
A lot of people don't like the menus rolling out, and other I've read other
problems. I've even read comments by people who've said they downgraded to
VS 6. Whats the verdict on VS .NET?

Please let me know. If I here a lot of positive feedback, I'm going to
learn C# and actually use VS .NET. (I really liked VS 6).

noid
Jul 21 '05 #1
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29 Replies


P: n/a

<droid> wrote in message
news:ca******************************@news.teranew s.com...
Please let me know. If I here a lot of positive feedback, I'm going to
learn C# and actually use VS .NET. (I really liked VS 6).


Hi Droid,

I started using C# about 3 1/2 years ago and never looked back. It is a
nice language that is quick to become productive with and VS.NET has matured
very well. You really should try it.

Joe
--
http://www.csharp-station.com
Jul 21 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Joe Mayo" <jm***@nospamAtCSharpDashStation.com> wrote in
news:ec*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl:

<droid> wrote in message
news:ca******************************@news.teranew s.com...
Please let me know. If I here a lot of positive feedback, I'm going
to learn C# and actually use VS .NET. (I really liked VS 6).


Hi Droid,

I started using C# about 3 1/2 years ago and never looked back. It is
a nice language that is quick to become productive with and VS.NET has
matured very well. You really should try it.

Joe


OK, thanks for the feedback. I'm hoping for feedback from others.

Do you, or anyone else, have any recommendations as to what books would be
good to use to learn VC# and the VS .NET IDE? If I here a lot of good
feedback, I'll need a book.

I know VB, C++ and Visual Studio 6. I'm going to assume that C# is overall
pretty similar to C++. But I do need to learn the new .NET IDE as well.
I've got VS .NET 2003.

Thanks.
Jul 21 '05 #3

P: n/a
Its more like java than C++

<droid> wrote in message
news:0f******************************@news.teranew s.com...
"Joe Mayo" <jm***@nospamAtCSharpDashStation.com> wrote in
news:ec*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl:

<droid> wrote in message
news:ca******************************@news.teranew s.com...
Please let me know. If I here a lot of positive feedback, I'm going
to learn C# and actually use VS .NET. (I really liked VS 6).
Hi Droid,

I started using C# about 3 1/2 years ago and never looked back. It is
a nice language that is quick to become productive with and VS.NET has
matured very well. You really should try it.

Joe


OK, thanks for the feedback. I'm hoping for feedback from others.

Do you, or anyone else, have any recommendations as to what books would be
good to use to learn VC# and the VS .NET IDE? If I here a lot of good
feedback, I'll need a book.

I know VB, C++ and Visual Studio 6. I'm going to assume that C# is

overall pretty similar to C++. But I do need to learn the new .NET IDE as well.
I've got VS .NET 2003.

Thanks.

Jul 21 '05 #4

P: n/a
<.> wrote in news:ux**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Its more like java than C++


Actually of all the languages, it looks like Delphi with a C syntax to me. ;)
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #5

P: n/a
"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote:
<.> wrote in news:ux**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Its more like java than C++


Actually of all the languages, it looks like Delphi with a C syntax to me. ;)


I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.
Jul 21 '05 #6

P: n/a
Most corporate developers, probably not. For new development, can't say,
but I see a steady increase in .Net jobs.
People tend to think .NET is Microsofts answer to Java and since .NET is
still Windows only, it can't fully compete with Java.

But to summarize a few points.
C# has a C++ style syntax, a Java style class system, and native Win32
speed (allocating memory is even faster under .NET)
You won't have to worry about memory management, giving you time to focus
on the actual progress of the coding.

The main drawback is that any program will use 16MB of memory just to
display an empty window.
Also, since you have no control of the garbage collector, time/performance
critical applications might find that it decides to run when you really
don't want it to. (In these cases you can actually turn it off (C#))

..NET applications do suffer a slight speed decrease compared to the
equivalent C/C++ application, but not as much as you might think. Unlike
Java, .NET is designed to benefit from the underlying system and is
closely tied to it, and as an example, a Direct3D application is only
about 3% slower under .NET compared to C++. The initial run of the
program will run slowly due to IL being translated to native code, but you
can precompile the program to native code if you like.

As for Visual Studio .NET, what can I say. I haven't tried VS6, but VS7
is incredible, and if you are going to invest in one expensive
application, VS7 is well worth it. Though you can code VB.NET/J#/C# just
by installing .NET framework and using the compilers installed with it,
VS7 enables you do make very complex applications in no time, and it's
IntelliSense is perhaps the single most important feature for that. It
enables you do get the full framework library (as well as your own code)
at your fingertips, while typing minimal information, thus ensuring less
typos. Then again, I haven't really tried anything else, so for all I
know there might even better software out there, but I believe VS7 is one
of Sun's major concerns regarding people migrating to .NET

There are plenty other benefits and drawbacks, but unless extreme
time/performance is critical there is no reason to choose C++ over C#, and
even if it is critical, the customer will quite likely prefer a safe
stable slightle slower program created well within the time limit, over a
fast, unsafe and unstable one, and long overdue.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
For a laugh, try web browsing with Opera's User Mode and Nostalgia enabled
Jul 21 '05 #7

P: n/a
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:qu********************************@4ax.com:
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.


Yes. The more things change the more they stay the same for us. Unfortunately
still a few things missing. 1.1 got closer - one can hope 1.2/2.0 will
finally bring us "back" to what Delphi developers have been used to for
years.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #8

P: n/a
>Have most corporate developers migrated to C#? Is C++ used for new
development or just legacy apps? What about non corporate developers?
We've been investigating .NET and C# during all of 2003, and in the
end, our top bosses have decided that all new development will be
started in C# (unless there's a very good reason not to - e.g. if the
interfacing to old legacy code - Cobol and C++ - would be too
time-consuming). But basically, it's C# from now on.
What's the verdict on C#? Does it live up to the hype?


Yes - and then some. Not necessarily only C# which is the first
C-oriented language that I can more or less deal with - it's still not
as nice as Delphi ! - but it's mostly also the .NET framework which
provides a whole lot more power and is so much more easily accessible
than dealing with MFC and tons of different Win32 API's from C++.

And since .NET is definitely here to stay, I'd strongly recommend
getting your feet wet learning it - it won't harm you! Once you know
the .NET framework, a lot of others (like Delphi VCL, or Java's class
libraries) will all seem very comfortable and familiar - you can only
gain from getting to know .NET and C# !

Marc

================================================== ==============
Marc Scheuner May The Source Be With You!
Bern, Switzerland m.scheuner(at)inova.ch
Jul 21 '05 #9

P: n/a
Basically if u want a job, do C# :D
"Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI]" <m.********@inova.SPAMBEGONE.ch> wrote in message
news:i2********************************@4ax.com...
Have most corporate developers migrated to C#? Is C++ used for new
development or just legacy apps? What about non corporate developers?


We've been investigating .NET and C# during all of 2003, and in the
end, our top bosses have decided that all new development will be
started in C# (unless there's a very good reason not to - e.g. if the
interfacing to old legacy code - Cobol and C++ - would be too
time-consuming). But basically, it's C# from now on.
What's the verdict on C#? Does it live up to the hype?


Yes - and then some. Not necessarily only C# which is the first
C-oriented language that I can more or less deal with - it's still not
as nice as Delphi ! - but it's mostly also the .NET framework which
provides a whole lot more power and is so much more easily accessible
than dealing with MFC and tons of different Win32 API's from C++.

And since .NET is definitely here to stay, I'd strongly recommend
getting your feet wet learning it - it won't harm you! Once you know
the .NET framework, a lot of others (like Delphi VCL, or Java's class
libraries) will all seem very comfortable and familiar - you can only
gain from getting to know .NET and C# !

Marc

================================================== ==============
Marc Scheuner May The Source Be With You!
Bern, Switzerland m.scheuner(at)inova.ch

Jul 21 '05 #10

P: n/a
> > I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.
Yes. The more things change the more they stay the same for us.

Unfortunately still a few things missing. 1.1 got closer - one can hope 1.2/2.0 will
finally bring us "back" to what Delphi developers have been used to for
years.

I also have a Delphi background and I too hope that next .NET version has
the same functionality that Delphi 1.0 had.

The biggest difference between C++ unmanaged code and C# is that in C++ I
used 90% of my time fighting search paths, linker errors and mysterious
compiler errors. No I use 90% of the time to develop very stable and
reusable programs. And 10% of the time to drink coffee. :-)

I the very beginning when I started using this .NET I had a very hard time
with some kind of dll hell, but it turned out to be the MFC dlls not the
..NET framework.
I used manged/unmanaged code.

One thing is for sure, C++ will stay a long time since a lot of developers
are still stuck to none-OOP programming and still use C++ in a C way.
Also MFC are in no way an object oriented library, it is just a wrapper
object around the windows functions, and they resist inheritance in all
possible ways unless you inherit with public: (CObject is the nightmare in
this). MFC programmes will have a hard time to adjust ot the OOP way of
thinking found in .NET.

Also another reason why C++ and MFC will stay a long time is because of the
codebase. It will take a very long time to port the code from MFC to .NET.

In my opinion, only people coming from school, and people like me, open for
new technology, will prefer .NET over MFC.
I am afraid that MFC and C++ will stay a long time.
Jul 21 '05 #11

P: n/a
"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote in message news:<Xn******************@127.0.0.1>...
<.> wrote in news:ux**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Its more like java than C++


Actually of all the languages, it looks like Delphi with a C syntax to me. ;)


Figures. Both languages are designed by Anders Hejlsberg :-)

Ebbe
Jul 21 '05 #12

P: n/a
Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI] <m.********@inova.SPAMBEGONE.ch> wrote in
news:i2********************************@4ax.com:
C-oriented language that I can more or less deal with - it's still not
as nice as Delphi ! - but it's mostly also the .NET framework which
provides a whole lot more power and is so much more easily accessible


Delphi 8 gives you both Delphi and .net. :)
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #13

P: n/a
"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote:
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:qu********************************@4ax.com :
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.


Yes. The more things change the more they stay the same for us. Unfortunately
still a few things missing. 1.1 got closer - one can hope 1.2/2.0 will
finally bring us "back" to what Delphi developers have been used to for
years.


I look forward to that.

For one thing -- I do feel a bit sorry for Borland. It's almost as if
Delphi has been stolen and repackaged by Microsoft (in my opinion).

Regards
Jul 21 '05 #14

P: n/a
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:cg********************************@4ax.com:
For one thing -- I do feel a bit sorry for Borland. It's almost as if
Delphi has been stolen and repackaged by Microsoft (in my opinion).


Yep.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #15

P: n/a
Is Delphi a standard or propriety like VB and Java?
"C# Learner" <cs****@learner.here> wrote in message
news:qu********************************@4ax.com...
"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote:
<.> wrote in news:ux**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Its more like java than C++
Actually of all the languages, it looks like Delphi with a C syntax to

me. ;)
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.

Jul 21 '05 #16

P: n/a
<.> wrote in news:ej**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl:
Is Delphi a standard or propriety like VB and Java?


Its proprietary, but it doesnt matter for most. Results are what matter.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #17

P: n/a
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:qu********************************@4ax.com:
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.


Very very similar. Many classes you could map the hierarchies 1:1.


--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #18

P: n/a
<.> writes:
Is Delphi a standard or propriety like VB and Java?


Do you mean "an open standard or proprietary" ? The Delphi language
(Object pascal) is the latter, is a proprietary language derived from
Pascal.

--
Lawrence "Rhymes" Oluyede
http://loluyede.blogspot.com
Jul 21 '05 #19

P: n/a
>> C-oriented language that I can more or less deal with - it's still not
as nice as Delphi ! - but it's mostly also the .NET framework which
provides a whole lot more power and is so much more easily accessible


Delphi 8 gives you both Delphi and .net. :)


I know - I like that !! :-)

Marc
================================================== ==============
Marc Scheuner May The Source Be With You!
Bern, Switzerland m.scheuner(at)inova.ch
Jul 21 '05 #20

P: n/a
Is it controled by a standards body where anybody can submit proposals or is
it controled by the company ?`

And yes its important, VB6 is going to die in a few years, no more support
and since its not goverend by a standards body were ass reamed, if you hit a
bug, dont expect a bugfix.

So yes standards are important, and especially when going for approved and
certified systems one is developing.

"Lawrence Oluyede" <ra***@dot.com> wrote in message
news:87************@mobile.foo...
<.> writes:
Is Delphi a standard or propriety like VB and Java?


Do you mean "an open standard or proprietary" ? The Delphi language
(Object pascal) is the latter, is a proprietary language derived from
Pascal.

--
Lawrence "Rhymes" Oluyede
http://loluyede.blogspot.com

Jul 21 '05 #21

P: n/a
<di********@discussion.microsoft.com> wrote in
news:uK**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl:
Is it controled by a standards body where anybody can submit proposals
or is it controled by the company ?`
Controlled by company.
And yes its important, VB6 is going to die in a few years, no more
support and since its not goverend by a standards body were ass reamed,
if you hit a bug, dont expect a bugfix.
Thats because MS has chanegd VB liek 4 times and broken it. I have code that
comipled in TP3 back in 1990 that STILL compiles with Delphi 8. So you can
stuff your standards - Its about the company just as much.

If you wnat a testimony to compatibility look at Indy:
http://www.indyproject.org/indy.html

Compiles in Delphi 4-8, C++ Builder 5-6, Kylix, and works in output for C#
and VB.

It would go back farther than D4, but we decided to use new compiler and VCL
features.
So yes standards are important, and especially when going for approved
and certified systems one is developing.


No - committment to backwards compat is whats necessary.

--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #22

P: n/a
Cor
Hi Morten,

An intresting link for you to change your view

http://www.go-mono.com/

I hope this helps?

Cor
Jul 21 '05 #23

P: n/a
> Is Delphi a standard or propriety like VB and Java?

It is one of the best compilers and class base (VCL) ever designed.
..NET now is starting to become what Delphi 1.0 had in its VCL in 1995
regarding to programming and functionality.
Jul 21 '05 #24

P: n/a
Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI] <m.********@inova.SPAMBEGONE.ch> wrote:
Delphi 8 gives you both Delphi and .net. :)


I know - I like that !! :-)


I wonder if Delphi 8 Personal Edition will be a free download for
non-commercial development, as is C# Builder. As I see it, this is an
excellent idea for both Borland and its consumers.

Indeed, this is what attracted me to Delphi in the first place.
Jul 21 '05 #25

P: n/a
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:ge********************************@4ax.com:
I know - I like that !! :-)


I wonder if Delphi 8 Personal Edition will be a free download for
non-commercial development, as is C# Builder. As I see it, this is an
excellent idea for both Borland and its consumers.


I havent heard any plans, but who knows.

--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #26

P: n/a
Youre just gona have to accept C# is here to stay just like VB6 was, just
even more so. Its gona be a replacement for VB, I dont know why people want
to do VB.NET appart from theyre skillset which needs updated for VB.net as
its totall different except some keywords or a previous project and
managemnt have no clue and just see the 2 letters VB and say yes!. Then
there are those that chose C++/CLI becuase of its penis extension potential
yet its only costing them time and headaches on a project that has ZERO need
for the C++/CLI features and can be done faster in C#: I had one guy who
wanted C++/CLI for a project cuz it was "cool" i just frowned and said youre
using C# becuase its the better choice and also because we have people doing
algorithms that have no programming background. All too often the ego
distortion field is in the IT industry and its just stupid.

As for VB, well its keyword bloat like COBOL for ZERO gain over C#.


"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote in message
news:Xn******************@127.0.0.1...
C# Learner <cs****@learner.here> wrote in
news:qu********************************@4ax.com:
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.
Yes. The more things change the more they stay the same for us.

Unfortunately still a few things missing. 1.1 got closer - one can hope 1.2/2.0 will
finally bring us "back" to what Delphi developers have been used to for
years.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #27

P: n/a
C P
I think it's partly because one of the minds behind C# was also behind
Delphi (Andres H(something) I think). C# seems more like a C/Delphi cross
to me, and it's got some VB stuff thrown in... foreach etc. There are
definitely Delphi-like things that are missing in C#, but in all it's nice
that taking up C# isn't so bad if you know Delphi.
"C# Learner" <cs****@learner.here> wrote in message
news:qu********************************@4ax.com...
"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu" <cp**@hower.org> wrote:
<.> wrote in news:ux**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Its more like java than C++
Actually of all the languages, it looks like Delphi with a C syntax to

me. ;)
I couldn't agree more! Not only are some of C#'s syntatical additions
similar to some of Delphi's existing ones, but also the .NET framework
"seems" very similar to the VCL.

Jul 21 '05 #28

P: n/a
"C P" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in news:#7AdCpO4DHA.1592
@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl:
I think it's partly because one of the minds behind C# was also behind
Delphi (Andres H(something) I think). C# seems more like a C/Delphi cross
to me, and it's got some VB stuff thrown in... foreach etc. There are


For Each did not originate in VB AFAIK but was in some other languages long
before.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"
ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

Jul 21 '05 #29

P: n/a
>Delphi (Andres H(something) I think).

Anders Hejlsberg is the guy's name

Marc
================================================== ==============
Marc Scheuner May The Source Be With You!
Bern, Switzerland m.scheuner(at)inova.ch
Jul 21 '05 #30

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