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Is C++/CLI gaining any traction???

I've been looking for a new IT position, and so far, the majority of
work with respect to the Windows platform is C#/.Net, with some vb.net
requests every so often. Even many of the C++/MFC/ATL position are ones
in which the companies are looking to migrate this to C# and .Net. I
have NOT even seen one position requesting C++/CLI, let alone any
recruiters who have even heard of it!

I can understand those companies looking to create new applications
looking to start with C#, since it is the new trendy language and one
made specifically for .net, but I would think those looking to migrate
their C++/Win32/MFC/ATL stuff, would be looking at the new and improved
C++/CLI to migrate those portions which make sense to integrate .net.

Instead, I've mostly seen the following types of positions with respect
to C++ on Windows:

1) New apps with C#/.Net requested, and some vb.net only
2) Port all native C++ apps to C#/.Net
3) Stick with native C++, with no .Net at all

Like I mentioned, I can understand 1) since if your going to create new
..Net stuff, might as well use the language built specifically for it.
3) I can understand, since if you have native stuff already that is
working well for you, and especially if its apps with performance and
portability in mind, there is no reason to go .net.

2) though, is what I think is nuts! Looks like some companies have
bought into the .net hype, and are under the notion that they need to
convert their native C++ apps completely to a C# one. Sadly, they don't
seem to know that they can use C++/CLI to extend and preserve their
existing native C++ code. C++/CLI is the perfect candidate for this
type of migration, yet no one seems to be aware of it!

I can only conclude a few things: 1) C++/CLI came too late. This should
have been the first language to come out, instead of the horrendous
managed C++. 2) Microsoft has done a lackluster job of marketing
C++/CLI. 3) My feeling is that the hardcore C++ programming shop could
care less about .Net, and furthermore, I think there is quite some
resistance about a .Net extended language of C++. Just read some of the
newsgroups like comp.lang.c++ or comp.lang.c++.m oderated.

Its sad to see this, given all the investment put into C++/CLI, as well
as the fact that two of my favorite C++ authors, namely Stan Lippman and
Herb Sutter, put a lot of work into this, yet it seems the marketplace
is ignorant of, and maybe even resistent to it.

But I think C++/CLI may wither away, or comprise a very small niche. I
think the best thing to do is either stick with C#/.Net (or vb.net) if
your going to do Windows now and in the future, and for native C++,
either work as a maintence programmer if your on the Windows platform,
or move to a Unix/Linux environment where most of the new and cutting
edge stuff involving C++, as well as C is going on.

-Don Kim
Mar 2 '06
81 4482

"Herby" <pr********@gma il.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:11******** **************@ i39g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .
The same process happens in software industry now. All
spadework goes to India, China and other countries where
coders are cheaper.

So is this the fate for all coding in the western world,
it is to be farmed out much cheaper to third world countries?


Like t-shirts, and cheap PCs.
What are we to do?


We are to take care of the other jobs, that stay here.

The latest figures I saw, says that 2-3 percent of the IT jobs left
the US for India and China last year. This in an industry with a 5%
annual growth.

So, half of the *growth* leaves for Asia. The other half stays at
home. Try to get one of those jobs!
Bo Persson
Mar 6 '06 #31
>I moved away from using VC6 for a couple of reasons...

Hi Tom,

I don't know if I gave the impression that I've stuck with VC6 - I
haven't. I promote moving our C++ projects to VS2005 where I work -
something that seems to be happening since other people want to be
seen to have the latest tools on their CV :)

What we aren't doing is converting any existing projects to use
managed code. The only places we've used managed code are for a couple
of throwaway tests, and some MMCs that we've had to rewrite for
another company.
I've found that once I got used to the new interface in VS 7.1 and 8.0 I
actually like it better. I still miss ClassWizard, but I've learned to do
more things manually.


Same here. I find that the general improvements in the compiler & IDE
outweigh the losses from VC6. Hey, we've finally got a decent code
browser again with VS2005 :)

Dave
Mar 6 '06 #32
Herby wrote:
The same process happens in software industry now. All
spadework goes to India, China and other countries where
coders are cheaper.


So is this the fate for all coding in the western world,
it is to be farmed out much cheaper to third world
countries?
What are we to do?


Yes, I think boilerplate coding will extinct the same way as
production line manufacturing and assembling. Here's good
article about that:

"Outsourcin g and Offshore Coders: Good or Evil?"
http://www.codeproject.com/gen/work/offshore.asp
Mar 6 '06 #33
> previously developed with tools such as Visual Basic, Power
Builder, Java and Delphi.


You should hop over to the Delphi forums. They'll dissagree. There seems
to be a very strong adverse to .NET. Most can't see why anyone would want
to use it... mostly because of performance. But when they have Delphi and
Delphi.NET, they really don't like .NET. I suspect, there will be very few
Delphi converts to .NET.
Thanks,
Shawn
Mar 6 '06 #34
Hi Dave,

"David Lowndes" <Da****@example .invalid> wrote in message
news:6u******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...
I don't know if I gave the impression that I've stuck with VC6 - I
haven't. I promote moving our C++ projects to VS2005 where I work -
something that seems to be happening since other people want to be
seen to have the latest tools on their CV :)
Sorry, I wasn't reacting to anythiung you said specifically.
What we aren't doing is converting any existing projects to use
managed code. The only places we've used managed code are for a couple
of throwaway tests, and some MMCs that we've had to rewrite for
another company.
We're just getting started doing managed code. So far I like it, but native
code still performs better for my desktop applications so it's difficult to
push the paradigm for the kinds of things I do.
Same here. I find that the general improvements in the compiler & IDE
outweigh the losses from VC6. Hey, we've finally got a decent code
browser again with VS2005 :)


Yes! The only thing I don't like is the new help engine. Google is much
faster if you are online. I can start IE and do the Google before the help
engine finds anything and finally displays it's window. Local help is
nearly useless for me now.

Tom
Mar 6 '06 #35
>Yes! The only thing I don't like is the new help engine.

Agreed - that's indeed a step backwards IMHO. How do they keep
managing to make it worse? ;)

Dave
Mar 6 '06 #36
> Why this fixation on speed? .NET was not invented to make
applications run faster. Who needs this speed anyway?
My company does. We process vast volumes of data.
4 years worth of data amounts to several 100's of Gb's
Clients wait hours for reports.
We certatinly don't want a reduction in speed just because it is a .NET app.
There is no gain whatsoever rewriting as a .NET app
.NET is not programming fashion.
Oh yes it is. It is the latest fashion from Microsoft.
What difference is there between a C++ API based on objects and a .NET API?
None at all, AFAICT. Therefore it could just as easily be implemented as
part of Win32.
It is vital need of modern
software development. Applications are big and complex
nowadays. Time to market is shorter and more demanding. No
sane manager can afford himself the delusion that his
product can compete while using outdated technologies.
Almost any feature now is "some easy functionality you need
that is not easy to code using Win32 APIs". Can you imagine
today any decent desktop application without scriptability,
automation, possibility to make add-ons for it; without
highly customizable UI? Suppose, you have genius developers
and they managed to make it in Win32 API. Then what? How do
you think to convince your partners to make extensions for
your application? Where they should search for genuis
extension writers and support staff? Why they should invest
a lot of money to make additional training for existing
staff?
Well what do you think of ADO (no, not ADO.NET)?
It offers several simple objects all of which can be leveraged in terms of
doing most database functionality you could think of. They are all COM
objects. Now all you have said in the paragraph above applies to what is
offered in ADO. Yet it is not part of .NET.
With .NET many of these questions are simply not exist.
That's why it is already (not in 10 years) .NET is primary
development platform for WIndows applications.


It is not. 10 years from now Microsoft will be abandoning it for something
else which at that point in time you will say "is the future".

Stephen Howe
Mar 6 '06 #37
Hi Don,

I think that migrating C++ to C++/CLI is as "complicate d" as migrating
it to C#. This is because:

1. You have to use NET services
2. Cannot mix well managed/unmanaged
3. You have to use (IMHO) weird syntaxis (gcnew, ^ instead of *, etc).
4. C++/CLI does not have any advantage over C# and vice versa.

Hence, if the app's being migrated, better use the "new trendy".

I think that's why.

Regards,
FG.

Mar 7 '06 #38
Stephen Howe wrote:
Why this fixation on speed? .NET was not invented to make
applications run faster. Who needs this speed anyway?


My company does. We process vast volumes of data.
4 years worth of data amounts to several 100's of Gb's
Clients wait hours for reports.
We certatinly don't want a reduction in speed just
because it is a .NET app.


There are different sectors in software market. Average
desktop application (which comprises lion's share of all
applications) does not process 100's of GB's of data. Also,
such application does not require high skilled developers.
Moreover, industry wants to make average desktop application
as cheap as possible and as fast as possible. That's why
some kind of managed infrastructure is inevitable for pure
economical reasons.

About 200 years ago the Luddites claimed the same thing: "we
don't need no stinky new machines!". They were highly
skilled, highly paid and worked primarily by hands. Workers
who used machines were uneducated, poorly trained and
underpaid. However, with machine's help one uneducated
worker could produce ten times more textile than whole team
before for the same period. The product was of slightly
lesser quality than before, however it is quantity and speed
that won, after all.

You can still find tailors who sew by hand and make a work
of art clothes. However, you know by yourself where the
money is now.
That's why it is already (not in 10 years) .NET is
primary development platform for WIndows applications.


It is not. 10 years from now Microsoft will be abandoning
it for something else which at that point in time you
will say "is the future".


10 years is a lot of time. If there is technology which will
last for 10 years, it's already worthwhile investing.
Mar 7 '06 #39
But the thing is: that was true in 1990's as well. For your "average"
desktop (and web, btw) applications, there were good RAD tools before
..NET appeared, and people were using them. C++ is a "general purpose
programming language with a bias towards systems programming" (quote B.
Stroustrup: http://public.research.att.com/~bs/C++.html) and not a
"Windows productivity language with a bias towards business
appliactions programming". There are applications that are best done
with such tools (.NET or others), and there are others where C or C++
are best fitted for.

All this talking about "obsolete" and "legacy" programming languages is
just buying the marketing hype. The oldest high level programming
language - FORTRAN is live and kicking in its niche, and so is COBOL,
not to mention C.

In short, please use .NET for your accounting application. If you ever
used C++ to develop such software, it is your fault, not C++'s. I work
on lower level stuff where tight control over memory and CPU
consumption is necessary, and I will continue using native C++ until I
find a better tool for the job. So far, I am not aware of such a tool.

Mar 7 '06 #40

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