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c# is a good way to learn c


After working in c# for a year, the only conclusion I can come to is
that I wish I knew c.

All I need is Linux, the gnu c compiler and I can do anything.

Web services are just open sockets hooked up to interfaces.

The Gtk is more than enough gui.

Jul 21 '05
354 15839
Linønut wrote:

So is C++, which is what we use for our Windows users and servers.

C++ is wonderful for native Windows code, nut, but you better get .NET
if you want to be relevant next week! Being philosophic about linux and
Windows and even languages is fine for argument, but if you want to keep
up with the wave, you have to surf and today that means .NET and that
really means C# or VB.Net. So if you have to walk the plank, which one
do you choose?
Jul 21 '05 #41
Sean Hederman <em*******@codi ngsanity.blogsp ot.com> wrote:
Tried a couple of other newsreaders, didn't like them. Got any good
suggestions that run on Windows?


On Windows, I'd recommend 40tude Dialog: <http://www.40tude.com/dialog/>.
(It's freeware for private users, but not open-source.)
Jul 21 '05 #42
On 2005-04-06, Linønut <linønu*@bone.c om> wrote:
tab poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
I still think C++ is the ultimate language. Enough rope to shoot off your
foot and then build a new one. <grin> Why jack off with Java when you
can get pure programming.


That is funny. I have, at work, now beat C++ programmers, 4 times,
in getting the job done. And my solutions are still in place.
The C++ guys were finally layed off. They took to long to finish,
and spent all their time debating what is faster.


Big deal. They sound like doofuses. They problem don't even know how to
use the STL. You could probably beat them just as well if you used straight
C.
I have now also seen a C# guy kick the hell out of a C++ guy in building
GUI's to Databases. You know, the most common business stuff.


I don't do GUIs at the moment. Other people do it here, using Qt.
You must not be in the mainstream of coding, but a side application.


Nah, I just wrote the C++ socket library and an XDR packet library
implementation for our group, not to mention a unit test library, an NT
service base class, our audio library, a dictionary XML markup language library,
and a library of string, filename, and other odds and ends. All in C++.


Most of which exist as native .NET components... And would never have
to be written in C# because they already exist. This is what I meant by
Time-To-Market. With C#, you spend more time worrying about the problem
then writting socket libraries and service base classes...

Sockets - System.Net and System.Net.Sock ets
Service base class - System.ServiceP rocess.ServiceB ase (along with a
whole bunch of classes to support the manipulation of services).
Unit Testing - NUnit (not part of .NET properly, but it is a freely
available product written entirely in C#)
String - System.String, System.Text, System.Text.Reg ularExpressions
FileName - System.IO, System.IO.Path
XML stuff - System.XML. I'm not sure what your's does exactly, but I'm
sure there is something close or would be simpler to implement.

I'm not dissing you. I'm just pointing out that there is a reason that
VB and Java were more popular for buisness programming... Less bugs, and
less time to market.
Yeah, a side application, that's the right term.

There's more to programming than "kewl apps" and GUIs. In fact, the GUI
code is by far the easiest part of most applications.


Actually, I disagree :) I have always like the non-gui parts the best.

--
Tom Shelton
Jul 21 '05 #43
Tom Shelton wrote:

I think it has been born out by the fact that C++ is almost no where in
the development of inhouse line of buisness applications. Almost all of
those are VB or Java.


Well...actually the real workhorses are all written in COBOL and RPG-III.

What c++, c#, java and VB fight over are the 15 percent 'glamour'
applications that corporations spent at the high end of their budget.
Jul 21 '05 #44
"Linønut" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?lin=F8nut?= "@bone.com> wrote in message
news:bf******** ************@co mcast.com...
[Snip]
I understand the dates, my friend. It is the juxtaposition of assertions
to
which I object:
1. The Linux kernel is not based on UNIX. It was written from scratch
with
some knowledge of Minix. It has since acquired a few UNIX traits, but
most true UNIX guys still sneer at the Linux kernel.
Ah, finally a real argument. The Linux kernel is very similar in
architecture to UNIX, and very dissimilar to Minix (see the Tanenbaum/Linus
flamefest). It uses the same fork() copy that made sense on a PDP-7, but
doesn't really in this day and age. The same file-based security system
(hacked up a bit but still recognisable) that is so coarse-grained and
inflexible. I wasn't asserting that Linux was *completely* copied from UNIX,
but the architecture is pretty much the same. About the biggest shift away
from the traditional UNIX architecture is the vastly improved modularity.
2. The C used for Linux is, as far as I can tell, pretty much ISO C99 with
some GNU extensions. Unitl recently you could only use this C, gcc, to
compile the Linux kernel (now you can also use Intel's fine compiler.)
Since ISO C99 was ratified around 1999, and contains much more
complexity
and features over the original C (which I first encountered only about
25
years ago), I would hardly say that Linux is written in a 33-year-old
programming language.


So by that argument a programming language is as old as it's most recent
incarnation? Okay.
No thanks. I'd rather stick with C# and C++, they seem to fit all my
needs
right now.


They can do that. Nonetheless, when you develop for certain project (e.g.
the Linux kernel and the devices drivers) you *will* use C, and it
will be formatted using kernel coding conventions.


Naturally, I never said otherwise.
I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.


Fine, all I'm trying te get across is that C# is even easier, and without
a
major reduction in the possible solution domain.


For better or worse, it is essentially a Microsoft product. Microsoft is
being more reasonable about the openness of C# than Sun is about Java, and
there is one Linux C# project, and C# does have some 3rd party support, as
I
understand it.

However, I am loath to give up the STL, for example.


The upcoming version of .NET has an STL-like library called STL.NET.
Needless to say it has to be somewhat different because of the differences
between generics and templates.
I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll
wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.


If cross-platform is the main requirement, then yes, I'd agree. Either
C++
or Java would be my choice in that situation too. However, right now my
customers are Windows users and .NET is a logical choice.


So is C++, which is what we use for our Windows users and servers.


Since they're Windows (and by implication Windows-only, since that was my
implication) users why exactly are you using a language that means a
guaranteed slower development and guaranteed more bugs? To me, it just
doesn't make sense. C++ has it's place, but standard Windows business apps
are not one of them.
Jul 21 '05 #45
billwg wrote:
Linønut wrote:

So is C++, which is what we use for our Windows users and servers.
C++ is wonderful for native Windows code, nut, but you better get .NET
if you want to be relevant next week! Being philosophic about linux and
Windows and even languages is fine for argument, but if you want to keep
up with the wave, you have to surf and today that means .NET and that
really means C# or VB.Net. So if you have to walk the plank, which one
do you choose?


Wow...you make a lot of assumptions.

Given that it was recently shown that only 25 percent of corporations
installed SP2 for XP what makes you think everyone's in a rush to
install .NET?

Jul 21 '05 #46
> However, since I learned C first, and, while doing so, took great care to
develop pretty good habits in that language, C++ turned out to be a natural progression for me.
My first language was assembler and I learned C by looking at the assembler
code generated. This way I could optimize the C code even more. Now in C+ I
still look at the assembly code to see if my functions is fast enough and to
determine how to change it to help the compiler to optimize it even faster.
But I rarely program in assembler these days only to implement MMX.

I did look a C# generated assembler code, and I am not refering to ILASM but
to the real processor dependend assembler code and I am still very suprised
to see how nice the C# code gets converted to the raw processor power code.
It is really near C++ code. Any slowdowns is mostly related to using some
library functions or bad programming. Ofcourse using Interop and using
properties ans stuff, it also slows down, but so would C++ if you use
properties.
As for being old, we'll come back to laugh at you for using C# when C++0x is available, and you're a doddering old man like myself.

No one can predict the future.
Just wait and see. But at least I would advice you to look at C# otherwise
you risk to be outdated if the market moves in that direction. You don't
learn it overnight.

--
http://www.skyscan.be
Jul 21 '05 #47

Hi Olaf_Baeyens ( and Linonut ),

Microsoft C++ is really it's latest version of MS_C,
as Microsoft is not supporting the latest C standard, C99.

cout and the STL are pure garbage and should not be used, I say.
All the same, I use C++ ( MS_C_7 )
as it allows be to declare variables in_between statements.

I also use C++'s & a lot as references look cleaner than pointers.

C has been around for a long time,
and will continue to be around long after C# and Java are forgotten.

The higer a language is,
e.g. VBA scripts in MS_Word, the shorter it's lifespan.

The problem with high_level languages like C# and Java
is that they never quite reach the status of being a genuine standard,
as few can agree on what the higher level stuff should look like.

Higer level code is always specialized and often full of unfixable bugs.

P.S. Experienced C coders don't require weeks just to create a button.

Jul 21 '05 #48
Jeff_Relf wrote:
Hi Olaf_Baeyens ( and Linonut ),

Microsoft C++ is really it's latest version of MS_C,
as Microsoft is not supporting the latest C standard, C99.
First you're all like low-level and stuff, and then you subscribe to a
garbage language like c++

c is the answer and it always will be.

c/unix/linux is the lingua franca of the whole world.

all variants as pasty-faced dough languages for corporate pretty boys
who tote around UML diagrams in "architectu ral meetings".


cout and the STL are pure garbage and should not be used, I say.
All the same, I use C++ ( MS_C_7 )
as it allows be to declare variables in_between statements.

I also use C++'s & a lot as references look cleaner than pointers.

C has been around for a long time,
and will continue to be around long after C# and Java are forgotten.

The higer a language is,
e.g. VBA scripts in MS_Word, the shorter it's lifespan.

The problem with high_level languages like C# and Java
is that they never quite reach the status of being a genuine standard,
as few can agree on what the higher level stuff should look like.

Higer level code is always specialized and often full of unfixable bugs.

P.S. Experienced C coders don't require weeks just to create a button.

Jul 21 '05 #49

Hi Tom_Shelton ( and Linønut ),

What do you do if there's a bug, or something You think is bug,
in C#'s high_level routines ? What if they just don't do what you want ?

C#'s high level routines are compromises, where people say:
A-a-aw, hell, it's good enough, I'll just go with it.

If you want the best code, if you want code that can stand the test of time,
you need MS C++ 7.1 ( which is, de facto, the latest C from Microsoft ).

Besides, it's not like MS_C has no libraries to draw on,
e.g. no Direct_Draw_7, or no COM.

If you're not picky, or you just don't have the experience under your belt,
you can go with C#, Java... or even HTML, for that matter.

Jul 21 '05 #50

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