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Hi all

Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system (rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher. Is there a
way to make sure all transactions have been completed before the next on is
processed?

Many thanks for any help on this topic.

Dave
Jul 13 '06 #1
9 3224
After a quick think I would check the price the user has submitted by
comparing it to the current bid and making sure it was higher than the
current bid in the table....

Seems like a simple solution.....bu t I could be wrong.
David Eades wrote:
Hi all

Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system (rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher. Is there a
way to make sure all transactions have been completed before the next on is
processed?

Many thanks for any help on this topic.

Dave
Jul 13 '06 #2
That seems the obvious approach, but my problem is that I'm not sure how
mysql works and if two people both bid at the exact same time then both
could have the highest bid, and I just want to be able to deal with that

"Bowen" <si***@xiano.co .ukwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ 75g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
After a quick think I would check the price the user has submitted by
comparing it to the current bid and making sure it was higher than the
current bid in the table....

Seems like a simple solution.....bu t I could be wrong.
David Eades wrote:
>Hi all

Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system
(rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a
highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just
before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher. Is there
a
way to make sure all transactions have been completed before the next on
is
processed?

Many thanks for any help on this topic.

Dave

Jul 13 '06 #3
Yeah I can see your point....I think this article might of interest.

http://www.databasejournal.com/featu...le.php/3382171
Dave wrote:
That seems the obvious approach, but my problem is that I'm not sure how
mysql works and if two people both bid at the exact same time then both
could have the highest bid, and I just want to be able to deal with that

"Bowen" <si***@xiano.co .ukwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ 75g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
After a quick think I would check the price the user has submitted by
comparing it to the current bid and making sure it was higher than the
current bid in the table....

Seems like a simple solution.....bu t I could be wrong.
David Eades wrote:
Hi all

Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system
(rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a
highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just
before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher. Is there
a
way to make sure all transactions have been completed before the next on
is
processed?

Many thanks for any help on this topic.

Dave
Jul 13 '06 #4
Thanks for that, that is certainly of interest
"Bowen" <si***@xiano.co .ukwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ s13g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .
Yeah I can see your point....I think this article might of interest.

http://www.databasejournal.com/featu...le.php/3382171
Dave wrote:
>That seems the obvious approach, but my problem is that I'm not sure how
mysql works and if two people both bid at the exact same time then both
could have the highest bid, and I just want to be able to deal with that

"Bowen" <si***@xiano.co .ukwrote in message
news:11******* *************** @75g2000cwc.goo glegroups.com.. .
After a quick think I would check the price the user has submitted by
comparing it to the current bid and making sure it was higher than the
current bid in the table....

Seems like a simple solution.....bu t I could be wrong.
David Eades wrote:
Hi all

Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system
(rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a
highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell
user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just
before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher. Is
there
a
way to make sure all transactions have been completed before the next
on
is
processed?

Many thanks for any help on this topic.

Dave

Jul 13 '06 #5
>Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.
>
I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system (rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher.
I believe the way you stated it violates causality. Order the bids
(mostly by who gets to the MySQL server first). A bid has to be
higher than bids before it. How it relates to bids coming AFTER
it is not relevant, and will be taken care of when that later bid
is processed.

Use transactions. For each bid, check that the current bid is
(sufficiently - if you have minimum bid increments) higher than the
previous bid (or maximum of all bids, if you wish). If it isn't,
inform the user (and possibly roll back the transaction, if you
made any changes by this point). If it is, accept the bid, and
insert it, then commit the change. The transaction mechanism makes
sure that no other user manages to make any changes between the two
(or more) queries making up the transaction.

If the version of MySQL you have does not support transactions,
you can use table locking. Transactions are a lot nicer.

Gordon L. Burditt
Jul 14 '06 #6

"Gordon Burditt" <go***********@ burditt.orgwrot e in message
news:12******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
Complete newbie here, so apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been asked to use mysql and asp to make a simple bidding system
(rather
like a simple ebay), whereby users can use a web browser to view a highest
bid and can make a bid.

My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher.

I believe the way you stated it violates causality. Order the bids
(mostly by who gets to the MySQL server first). A bid has to be
higher than bids before it. How it relates to bids coming AFTER
it is not relevant, and will be taken care of when that later bid
is processed.

Use transactions. For each bid, check that the current bid is
(sufficiently - if you have minimum bid increments) higher than the
previous bid (or maximum of all bids, if you wish). If it isn't,
inform the user (and possibly roll back the transaction, if you
made any changes by this point). If it is, accept the bid, and
insert it, then commit the change. The transaction mechanism makes
sure that no other user manages to make any changes between the two
(or more) queries making up the transaction.

If the version of MySQL you have does not support transactions,
you can use table locking. Transactions are a lot nicer.

Gordon L. Burditt
Thanks for the reply Gordon, but I'm a little unsure what causality means,
could you eleborate a little for me?

Also, would you advise using one table for all bids, or a table for all bids
plus a table for highest current bid. If it were one table, could two users
be using transactions at the same time and end up both being successful? Or
does this mean that a table is locked whilst one user is checking and is
only unlocked once the COMMIT is called?

Many thanks

Dave
Jul 14 '06 #7
>>>My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
>>>another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher.

I believe the way you stated it violates causality. Order the bids
(mostly by who gets to the MySQL server first). A bid has to be
higher than bids before it. How it relates to bids coming AFTER
it is not relevant, and will be taken care of when that later bid
is processed.

Use transactions. For each bid, check that the current bid is
(sufficientl y - if you have minimum bid increments) higher than the
previous bid (or maximum of all bids, if you wish). If it isn't,
inform the user (and possibly roll back the transaction, if you
made any changes by this point). If it is, accept the bid, and
insert it, then commit the change. The transaction mechanism makes
sure that no other user manages to make any changes between the two
(or more) queries making up the transaction.

If the version of MySQL you have does not support transactions,
you can use table locking. Transactions are a lot nicer.
>Gordon L. Burditt

Thanks for the reply Gordon, but I'm a little unsure what causality means,
could you eleborate a little for me?
Violating causality means a requirement that you tell the first
bidder that he's about to be overbid by a second bid that's been
sent but you haven't received, or haven't processed, yet. It also
includes things like informing the winner he won before bidding has
started or before the seller decides to put the item up for sale.
>Also, would you advise using one table for all bids, or a table for all bids
plus a table for highest current bid.
It isn't that difficult to select the latest bid for a particular
item out of a list of bids for a particular item. (Bids that are
not above the current bid price by the minimum bid increment aren't
valid and don't get entered at all).

If you think it's a performance issue, e.g. you get a lot of hits
for people just LOOKING at the item which has to include the current
bid, so finding the current bid has to be fast, you can have a
separate table with the current bid. If you use two tables, you
have to update both tables within the same transaction to preserve
consistency.

You *COULD* use only the second table (current highest bid and who
made it), leaving out the bid history. This is a bad idea as it
leaves no evidence around for debugging or an evidence trail in
case of lawsuits over who should have won.

Before you design this part, decide how you will deal with BID
RETRACTION. This has implications about whether you look for the
HIGHEST (valid) bid vs. the LAST (valid) bid. Someone tries to bid
$14.99 for a used DVD, but manages to leave out the decimal point.
Then you get a frantic email that he didn't really mean to bid
$1,499.00 . You will find you need the bid history table if you
allow bid retraction, to figure out who is the new current high
bidder after the retraction. How do you continue this auction?
>If it were one table, could two users
be using transactions at the same time and end up both being successful? Or
Assuming "successful " means "passing a check that the bid amount
is greater than the current bid by at least the minimum bid increment",
yes, they could (e.g. current bid $5, next guy bids $7 and someone
else almost simultaneously bids $8, never having seen the $7 bid.
The first guy won the bid and then almost instantly got overbid.
Happens all the time, and it's not a problem.), but not if they
both bid the same amount, or the second guy bids lower than the
first. In the latter case, the second guy will get a rejection
message that his bid is too low, and the new current bid.
>does this mean that a table is locked whilst one user is checking and is
only unlocked once the COMMIT is called?
Transactions do not have to lock TABLES. They can still work
(usually better, especially if you've got thousands of simultaneous
auctions going on with many bids per second) if they only lock
specific RECORDS, so 9 people bidding on 9 different items don't
have to wait for each other. The nice thing is you usually don't
have to care about details like this when writing the code.

A transaction adding a bid does not have to block a query about the
current high bid to display for a user looking at the item. The
price displayed may be instantly stale, but that's always a possibility
with auctions. A transaction entering a bid will block another
transaction entering another bid. Everything done in a transaction
LOOKS LIKE it happened at one point in time, with everything done
by any other connection happening either before or after that time.

Incidentally, transactions are often written in a style of "start
making changes now, check things later (make sure your query didn't
fail), then if something fails, roll it back". That way if your
last insert gets a duplicate key violation, you don't have to go
to the trouble of checking everything BEFORE inserting (let the
database do it on insert), nor do you have to write complex code
to undo a partially inserted transaction. ROLLBACK will do it for
you. It also deals with the client program dumping core or getting
manually killed: if the MySQL connection breaks before commit, the
transaction gets rolled back.

Gordon L. Burditt
Jul 15 '06 #8

"Gordon Burditt" <go***********@ burditt.orgwrot e in message
news:12******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
>>>>My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user
A
that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just
before,
but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher.

I believe the way you stated it violates causality. Order the bids
(mostly by who gets to the MySQL server first). A bid has to be
higher than bids before it. How it relates to bids coming AFTER
it is not relevant, and will be taken care of when that later bid
is processed.

Use transactions. For each bid, check that the current bid is
(sufficient ly - if you have minimum bid increments) higher than the
previous bid (or maximum of all bids, if you wish). If it isn't,
inform the user (and possibly roll back the transaction, if you
made any changes by this point). If it is, accept the bid, and
insert it, then commit the change. The transaction mechanism makes
sure that no other user manages to make any changes between the two
(or more) queries making up the transaction.

If the version of MySQL you have does not support transactions,
you can use table locking. Transactions are a lot nicer.
>>Gordon L. Burditt

Thanks for the reply Gordon, but I'm a little unsure what causality means,
could you eleborate a little for me?

Violating causality means a requirement that you tell the first
bidder that he's about to be overbid by a second bid that's been
sent but you haven't received, or haven't processed, yet. It also
includes things like informing the winner he won before bidding has
started or before the seller decides to put the item up for sale.
>>Also, would you advise using one table for all bids, or a table for all
bids
plus a table for highest current bid.

It isn't that difficult to select the latest bid for a particular
item out of a list of bids for a particular item. (Bids that are
not above the current bid price by the minimum bid increment aren't
valid and don't get entered at all).

If you think it's a performance issue, e.g. you get a lot of hits
for people just LOOKING at the item which has to include the current
bid, so finding the current bid has to be fast, you can have a
separate table with the current bid. If you use two tables, you
have to update both tables within the same transaction to preserve
consistency.

You *COULD* use only the second table (current highest bid and who
made it), leaving out the bid history. This is a bad idea as it
leaves no evidence around for debugging or an evidence trail in
case of lawsuits over who should have won.

Before you design this part, decide how you will deal with BID
RETRACTION. This has implications about whether you look for the
HIGHEST (valid) bid vs. the LAST (valid) bid. Someone tries to bid
$14.99 for a used DVD, but manages to leave out the decimal point.
Then you get a frantic email that he didn't really mean to bid
$1,499.00 . You will find you need the bid history table if you
allow bid retraction, to figure out who is the new current high
bidder after the retraction. How do you continue this auction?
>>If it were one table, could two users
be using transactions at the same time and end up both being successful?
Or

Assuming "successful " means "passing a check that the bid amount
is greater than the current bid by at least the minimum bid increment",
yes, they could (e.g. current bid $5, next guy bids $7 and someone
else almost simultaneously bids $8, never having seen the $7 bid.
The first guy won the bid and then almost instantly got overbid.
Happens all the time, and it's not a problem.), but not if they
both bid the same amount, or the second guy bids lower than the
first. In the latter case, the second guy will get a rejection
message that his bid is too low, and the new current bid.
>>does this mean that a table is locked whilst one user is checking and is
only unlocked once the COMMIT is called?

Transactions do not have to lock TABLES. They can still work
(usually better, especially if you've got thousands of simultaneous
auctions going on with many bids per second) if they only lock
specific RECORDS, so 9 people bidding on 9 different items don't
have to wait for each other. The nice thing is you usually don't
have to care about details like this when writing the code.

A transaction adding a bid does not have to block a query about the
current high bid to display for a user looking at the item. The
price displayed may be instantly stale, but that's always a possibility
with auctions. A transaction entering a bid will block another
transaction entering another bid. Everything done in a transaction
LOOKS LIKE it happened at one point in time, with everything done
by any other connection happening either before or after that time.

Incidentally, transactions are often written in a style of "start
making changes now, check things later (make sure your query didn't
fail), then if something fails, roll it back". That way if your
last insert gets a duplicate key violation, you don't have to go
to the trouble of checking everything BEFORE inserting (let the
database do it on insert), nor do you have to write complex code
to undo a partially inserted transaction. ROLLBACK will do it for
you. It also deals with the client program dumping core or getting
manually killed: if the MySQL connection breaks before commit, the
transaction gets rolled back.

Gordon L. Burditt
Thanks very much, Gordon, for this very detailed response, I guess the most
important point is that queries from different connections happen
sequentially and not all happen at the same time, which I think is what you
have written in your post, i.e one insert will complete before an insert
from another connection, even if both connections were made at the same
time.

Many thanks

Dave
Jul 16 '06 #9
Dave wrote:
"Gordon Burditt" <go***********@ burditt.orgwrot e in message
news:12******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
>>>>>My question is; how can I be sure that when a user submits a bid, that
>another user isn't also currently submittimg a bid, i.e i can tell user
>A
>that he has the highest bid but then user B who had submitted just
>before,
>but whose insert was still being processed, is actually higher.

I believe the way you stated it violates causality. Order the bids
(mostly by who gets to the MySQL server first). A bid has to be
higher than bids before it. How it relates to bids coming AFTER
it is not relevant, and will be taken care of when that later bid
is processed.

Use transactions. For each bid, check that the current bid is
(sufficient ly - if you have minimum bid increments) higher than the
previous bid (or maximum of all bids, if you wish). If it isn't,
inform the user (and possibly roll back the transaction, if you
made any changes by this point). If it is, accept the bid, and
insert it, then commit the change. The transaction mechanism makes
sure that no other user manages to make any changes between the two
(or more) queries making up the transaction.

If the version of MySQL you have does not support transactions,
you can use table locking. Transactions are a lot nicer.
>>>>Gordon L. Burditt

Thanks for the reply Gordon, but I'm a little unsure what causality means,
could you eleborate a little for me?

Violating causality means a requirement that you tell the first
bidder that he's about to be overbid by a second bid that's been
sent but you haven't received, or haven't processed, yet. It also
includes things like informing the winner he won before bidding has
started or before the seller decides to put the item up for sale.

>>>Also, would you advise using one table for all bids, or a table for all
bids
plus a table for highest current bid.

It isn't that difficult to select the latest bid for a particular
item out of a list of bids for a particular item. (Bids that are
not above the current bid price by the minimum bid increment aren't
valid and don't get entered at all).

If you think it's a performance issue, e.g. you get a lot of hits
for people just LOOKING at the item which has to include the current
bid, so finding the current bid has to be fast, you can have a
separate table with the current bid. If you use two tables, you
have to update both tables within the same transaction to preserve
consistency .

You *COULD* use only the second table (current highest bid and who
made it), leaving out the bid history. This is a bad idea as it
leaves no evidence around for debugging or an evidence trail in
case of lawsuits over who should have won.

Before you design this part, decide how you will deal with BID
RETRACTION. This has implications about whether you look for the
HIGHEST (valid) bid vs. the LAST (valid) bid. Someone tries to bid
$14.99 for a used DVD, but manages to leave out the decimal point.
Then you get a frantic email that he didn't really mean to bid
$1,499.00 . You will find you need the bid history table if you
allow bid retraction, to figure out who is the new current high
bidder after the retraction. How do you continue this auction?

>>>If it were one table, could two users
be using transactions at the same time and end up both being successful?
Or

Assuming "successful " means "passing a check that the bid amount
is greater than the current bid by at least the minimum bid increment",
yes, they could (e.g. current bid $5, next guy bids $7 and someone
else almost simultaneously bids $8, never having seen the $7 bid.
The first guy won the bid and then almost instantly got overbid.
Happens all the time, and it's not a problem.), but not if they
both bid the same amount, or the second guy bids lower than the
first. In the latter case, the second guy will get a rejection
message that his bid is too low, and the new current bid.

>>>does this mean that a table is locked whilst one user is checking and is
only unlocked once the COMMIT is called?

Transaction s do not have to lock TABLES. They can still work
(usually better, especially if you've got thousands of simultaneous
auctions going on with many bids per second) if they only lock
specific RECORDS, so 9 people bidding on 9 different items don't
have to wait for each other. The nice thing is you usually don't
have to care about details like this when writing the code.

A transaction adding a bid does not have to block a query about the
current high bid to display for a user looking at the item. The
price displayed may be instantly stale, but that's always a possibility
with auctions. A transaction entering a bid will block another
transaction entering another bid. Everything done in a transaction
LOOKS LIKE it happened at one point in time, with everything done
by any other connection happening either before or after that time.

Incidentall y, transactions are often written in a style of "start
making changes now, check things later (make sure your query didn't
fail), then if something fails, roll it back". That way if your
last insert gets a duplicate key violation, you don't have to go
to the trouble of checking everything BEFORE inserting (let the
database do it on insert), nor do you have to write complex code
to undo a partially inserted transaction. ROLLBACK will do it for
you. It also deals with the client program dumping core or getting
manually killed: if the MySQL connection breaks before commit, the
transaction gets rolled back.

Gordon L. Burditt


Thanks very much, Gordon, for this very detailed response, I guess the most
important point is that queries from different connections happen
sequentially and not all happen at the same time, which I think is what you
have written in your post, i.e one insert will complete before an insert
from another connection, even if both connections were made at the same
time.

Many thanks

Dave

The most simple method is to use a data/timestamp that has microsecond precision
and the "winner" is highest bid+latest timestamp.

--
Michael Austin.
DBA Consultant
Donations welcomed. Http://www.firstdbasource.com/donations.html
:)
Jul 25 '06 #10

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My app needs to insert thousand value rows into a mostly empty table (data are read from a file). I can either use inserts, or use merge. The advantage of using merge is that in the few cases where the table is not empty, it can take care of the updating part, which makes the app cleaner. However, my concern is the merge state would slow dowm the insertion of new data, since in most cases the table is empty. So my questions (before I...
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9671
by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
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10846
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
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10551
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
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9379
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
7793
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
5828
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
1
4458
by: 6302768590 | last post by:
Hai team i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
2
4021
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
3
3116
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

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