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how to turn off meta-refresh ?

P: n/a
I have a page that gets loaded with a meta-refresh hardcoded so that a
few things on the page get updated. its kind of a fake chat board.
anyway, what I need to do is turn off the meta-refresh once someone
clicks in a <textarea> to enter their input; otherwise the refresh
catches them in the middle and messes up the focus.

I need a way to turn off the meta-refresh, or to force the
cursor/focus to stay in the message input box once they click in it
and start typing.

I've tried:
<p class=small>Enter your new message:
<br><textarea NAME=NewMsg rows=2 cols=60 wrap=virtual
onClick="window.location.reload(false);"></textarea>
<br><input TYPE=submit value="Post Your Message" >

but this actually forces a refresh onClick ?!

dan
Jul 20 '05 #1
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43 Replies


P: n/a
dan baker wrote:
[...]
anyway, what I need to do is turn off the meta-refresh once someone
clicks in a <textarea> to enter their input; [...]
You cannot cancel what has been parsed before, but you can cancel what
you have set before with JavaScript, so change the meta-refresh into a
window.setTimeout(...) call and cancel the timeout when necessary:

if (window.setTimeout)
var iTimeout =
window.setTimeout('if (location.reload) location.reload();', 42);
....
<... onclick="if (window.clearTimeout) window.clearTimeout(iTimeout) // one
line recommended">...</...>
I've tried:
<p class=small>Enter your new message:
<br><textarea NAME=NewMsg rows=2 cols=60 wrap=virtual
onClick="window.location.reload(false);"></textarea>
<br><input TYPE=submit value="Post Your Message" >

but this actually forces a refresh onClick ?!


BAD. Broken as designed. See
http://devedge.netscape.com/library/...n.html#1194198
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
Lee
dan baker said:

I have a page that gets loaded with a meta-refresh hardcoded so that a
few things on the page get updated. its kind of a fake chat board.
anyway, what I need to do is turn off the meta-refresh once someone
clicks in a <textarea> to enter their input; otherwise the refresh
catches them in the middle and messes up the focus.

I need a way to turn off the meta-refresh, or to force the
cursor/focus to stay in the message input box once they click in it
and start typing.

I've tried:
<p class=small>Enter your new message:
<br><textarea NAME=NewMsg rows=2 cols=60 wrap=virtual
onClick="window.location.reload(false);"></textarea>
<br><input TYPE=submit value="Post Your Message" >

but this actually forces a refresh onClick ?!


That's right. The "reload()" method does cause the window to
reload immediately. The "false" argument simply means that you
don't want to force a new download if the page is already in
your cache.

Guessing won't get you very far. Find a book or some of the
on-line resources listed in the FAQ.

I don't believe there is any way in JavaScript to disable the
REFRESH directive. Since your page seems to rely on Javascript,
anyway, you would be better off not using the HTTP REFRESH
directive, but using JavaScript to refresh the page periodically.

Look into setInterval(), clearInterval(), and, of course,
location.reload().

Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
bo*****@yahoo.com (dan baker) wrote in message news:<13**************************@posting.google. com>...
I have a page that gets loaded with a meta-refresh hardcoded so that a
few things on the page get updated. its kind of a fake chat board.
anyway, what I need to do is turn off the meta-refresh once someone
clicks in a <textarea> to enter their input; otherwise the refresh
catches them in the middle and messes up the focus.
--------------------


thanks for the help people... I did more reading and found an even
slicker way to do it with setInterval(). The basic sticking point that
you solved for me was that the refresh had to be started with
javascript rather than coming in hardcoded. Anyway, I thought I would
post the snippet in case someone else needs it:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
<!-- hide script from old browsers...

// always start auto-refresh onLoad
var RefreshID = setInterval("window.location.reload()",10000);

function StopRefresh(){
clearInterval(RefreshID);
}

function RestartRefresh(){
RefreshID = setInterval("window.location.reload()",10000);
}

// -->
</SCRIPT>

<td>
<a name=bottom></a>
<textarea NAME=NewMsg rows=2 cols=60 wrap=virtual
onFocus="StopRefresh();return true;"></textarea>
<br><input TYPE=submit value="Post Your Message" >
</td>
thanks again.... d
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
dan baker wrote:
bo*****@yahoo.com (dan baker) wrote in message
news:<13**************************@posting.google. com>...
Please shorten this to an attribution _line_.
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
That's invalid HTML, AFAIK only IE for Windows will accept the code. The
`script' element requires a `type' attribute to define the MIME type of
the code. And the `language' attribute is deprecated. If you use it for
backwards compatibility with older user agents, do not specify the version.
<!-- hide script from old browsers...

// always start auto-refresh onLoad
var RefreshID = setInterval("window.location.reload()",10000);

function StopRefresh(){
clearInterval(RefreshID);
}

function RestartRefresh(){
RefreshID = setInterval("window.location.reload()",10000);
}

// -->
</SCRIPT>

[...]
<textarea NAME=NewMsg rows=2 cols=60 wrap=virtual
onFocus="StopRefresh();return true;"></textarea>
[...]


I do not see the point of defining an interval (a *self-repeating* action)
here. A timeout that is cleared when focusing the `textarea' element (and
reset on blur, if you like it) should suffice and is more compatible because
it is supported since JavaScript 1.0, while window.setInterval(...) requires
JavaScript 1.2 support. (I'm aware that recent UAs support at least JS 1.2.)

Also I do not understand why you are defining the global variable at first
(and *before* the document is loaded). To restart the refresh interval
(better: timeout; see above) you define a function that redefines that
variable, why don't you call the function onload? That would simplify
programming and maintenance.

It is good style to reference properties by their object, even if it is not
required with `window', and it is also good style to check properties for
existence before accessing them.

Summary:

<head>
...
<script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript">
<!--
function stopRefresh()
{
if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */
&& window.clearTimeout)
window.clearTimeout(myRefresh);
}

function startRefresh()
{
if (window.setTimeout && window.location && window.location.reload)
myRefresh = window.setTimeout("window.location.reload()", 10000);
}
//-->
</script>
...
</head>

<body>
<form>
...
<textarea name="NewMsg" rows="2" cols="60" wrap="virtual"
onfocus="stopRefresh();" onblur="startRefresh();"></textarea>
...
</form>
<script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript">
<!--
/*
* Timeout should start when the document has been completely loaded,
* but the `onload' event handler is not supported by all UAs, so we
* place the script at the end of the `body' element.
*/
startRefresh();
//-->
</script>
</body>
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:48:28 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
dan baker wrote:
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
That's invalid HTML, AFAIK only IE for Windows will accept the code.


No, the vast majority of browsers will, in fact I don't know of any
which won't (either taking it as their default type or understanding
the language attribute) It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not
sure where you got the idea.
The
`script' element requires a `type' attribute to define the MIME type of
the code. And the `language' attribute is deprecated. If you use it for
backwards compatibility with older user agents, do not specify the version.
There's no reason to include it for anyone, you don't get any extra
compatibility with older browsers, other than in IE 4 in a particular
perverse scenario which I don't believe exists.
while window.setInterval(...) requires
JavaScript 1.2 support. (I'm aware that recent UAs support at least JS 1.2.)
setInterval has nothing to do with the javascript level, it's a DOM
object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years old support
it.
if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */
There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, the global object could be called fred, the only UA's I
know which do this are not HTML ones, but I doubt their unique, I also
know of UA's which don't put their global variable as part of the
window object and the above check would fail - I wouldn't recommend
doing it)
* Timeout should start when the document has been completely loaded,
* but the `onload' event handler is not supported by all UAs, so we
* place the script at the end of the `body' element.


Please name such a UA!

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
ji*@jibbering.com (Jim Ley) writes:
setInterval has nothing to do with the javascript level, it's a DOM
object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years old support
it.
Actually, it does. Javascript is a product of Netscape Corp. which is
used in its browsers. Other browsers have also implemented similar
languages under similar names, but the definition of Javascript v1.2
is ... hmm, unavailable. However, they do have 1.3 online, and as part
of that specification, they define the window object:
<URL:http://devedge.netscape.com/library/manuals/2000/javascript/1.3/reference/window.html>

This (Javascript 1.3) specification states that the object "window"
has the method "setInterval". I.e., "setInterval" is part of
Javascript 1.3.

It makes no sense to talk about Javascript levels apart from
Netscape's specifications. There are similar specifications of
different versions of JScript.
I also know of UA's which don't put their global variable as part of
the window object and the above check would fail - I wouldn't
recommend doing it)


Do you know of *browsers* that don't have a global variable called
"window" that points to the global object (and which support
ECMAScript-like scripting at all)?

I believe that the current draft of the next version of SVG DOM
includes references to the object called "window" with a "setInterval"
method. Can't find a single reference to it right now, though.

What is the UA that has a window object separate from the global object?

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
Art D'HTML: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/randomArtSplit.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
On 16 Oct 2003 14:08:36 +0200, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
<lr*@hotpop.com> wrote:
ji*@jibbering.com (Jim Ley) writes:
setInterval has nothing to do with the javascript level, it's a DOM
object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years old support
it.
Actually, it does. Javascript is a product of Netscape Corp. which is
used in its browsers.


No worries, we can see it's gone in JavaScript 1.5 then, so therefore
Mozilla browser's don't support setInterval? That's good to know.

However, I believe you're falling into the trap of confusing the
DOM/script documentation from Netscape which has always confused the
two, that's just a weakness of the documentation.
I also know of UA's which don't put their global variable as part of
the window object and the above check would fail - I wouldn't
recommend doing it)


Do you know of *browsers* that don't have a global variable called
"window" that points to the global object (and which support
ECMAScript-like scripting at all)?


Yes, I've discussed it before, CSV is the most recent one, it's still
a a browser, seen as it's in no standard that the global object is
called window, it seems rather silly to do it such.
What is the UA that has a window object separate
from the global object?


ASV3 and 6 and CSV.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
ji*@jibbering.com (Jim Ley) writes:
No worries, we can see it's gone in JavaScript 1.5 then, so therefore
Mozilla browser's don't support setInterval? That's good to know. However, I believe you're falling into the trap of confusing the
DOM/script documentation from Netscape which has always confused the
two, that's just a weakness of the documentation.
I guess it is a matter of wording.
The window object isn't in the Javascript 1.5 *Core* Language.
But, as you say, they are not very explicit about the difference
between the core language and the language included in the browser,
calling both "Javascript".

I will maintain that javascript 1.2 was not defined in terms of Core
language and browser/client extensions, but was seen as a whole.

Terminology has changed since then, with the introduction of the
concept of a DOM. What-is-now-DOM methods such as setInterval, Image,
Option, etc. were then just part of Javascript 1.2.

That means that not only are there changes to the language, there are
also changes to how we think about it. Having two different
perspectives at the same time is bound to give problems. :)
Yes, I've discussed it before, CSV is the most recent one, it's still
a a browser, seen as it's in no standard that the global object is
called window, it seems rather silly to do it such.
I can't find this CSV browser through Google (the most used menaing of
CSV seems to be Comma Separated Values). Even checked all you wrote
about it in this group, but no explaition of CSV except Comma
Separated List..
ASV3 and 6 and CSV.


.... and ASV seems to mean Action Script Viewer (apparently for
Shockwave). Ah, there. It is also Adobe SVG Viewer. That would make
CSV ... Corel SVG Viewer? :)

I'll look into them.
/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
Art D'HTML: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/randomArtSplit.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
On 16 Oct 2003 15:01:34 +0200, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
<lr*@hotpop.com> wrote:
I will maintain that javascript 1.2 was not defined in terms of Core
language and browser/client extensions, but was seen as a whole.


We moaning about that though in this list even then... Fortunately
it's not much better.
ASV3 and 6 and CSV.


... and ASV seems to mean Action Script Viewer (apparently for
Shockwave). Ah, there. It is also Adobe SVG Viewer. That would make
CSV ... Corel SVG Viewer? :)


The last two yes. ASV6 even renders some HTML.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:33:16 GMT, ji*@jibbering.com (Jim Ley) wrote:
On 16 Oct 2003 15:01:34 +0200, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
<lr*@hotpop.com> wrote:
I will maintain that javascript 1.2 was not defined in terms of Core
language and browser/client extensions, but was seen as a whole.


We moaning about that though in this list even then... Fortunately
it's not much better.


Damn typo's NOW much better.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message news:
It is good style to reference properties by their object, even if it is not
required with `window', and it is also good style to check properties for
existence before accessing them.

Summary:
.................. code


----------------------

thanks for the example. I'm not very experienced with javascript, so
examples and explainations really help. ;)

d
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
JRS: In article <bm************@ID-107532.news.uni-berlin.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:48:28 :-
dan baker wrote:
bo*****@yahoo.com (dan baker) wrote in message
news:<13**************************@posting.google. com>...


Please shorten this to an attribution _line_.


You are being silly, IMHO, unless you can provide a reference to a
Usenet Standard that calls for a single line.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <bm************@ID-107532.news.uni-berlin.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:48:28 :-
dan baker wrote:
bo*****@yahoo.com (dan baker) wrote in message
news:<13**************************@posting.google. com>...


Please shorten this to an attribution _line_.


You are being silly, IMHO, unless you can provide a reference to a
Usenet Standard that calls for a single line.


Well, it is called attribution _line_ (and not attribution novel) for the
reason that it should only provide information who wrote the quoted text,
especially when there is more than one quoting level. The other information
(like message ID, newsgroup(s) name, the sender's address, posting date and
time) can be easily retrieved via and from the headers of the postings by
people who are interested in it. On the other hand, this overhead is fitted
to make a posting less readable. (The newsgroup name and message ID in this
e-mail is only included to help you find the posting I am referring to,
because this is a different medium and not all e-mail user agents support
showing/clicking headers like `References' or `In-Reply-To'.)

I need not to provide a reference to a Usenet standard that recommends
this (although there may be one) because common sense should be enough to
recognize it, and if you call me silly for merely *asking* for a readable
posting, that is *your* problem.
Please do note that I did not want to discuss there here off-topic in
the first place, but you leave me no choice:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your message could not be delivered to the following recipients
sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk

Reporting-MTA: dns; merlyn.demon.co.uk
Received-From-MTA: smtp; lon1-punt3-4.mail.demon.net
Arrival-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:38:49 +0100

Final-Recipient: rfc822; sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0

Return-Path: <Po*********@web.de>
Received: from lon1-punt3-4.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.167])
by merlyn.demon.co.uk with SMTP id <+2**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
for <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:38:49 +0100
Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore
for sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk id 1AAFNH-0002Mn-EH;
Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:09:35 +0000
Received: from [217.72.192.151] (helo=smtp.web.de)
by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1AAFNH-0002Mn-EH
for sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:09:35 +0000
Received: from erf2-d9b98986.pool.mediaways.net ([217.185.137.134] helo=web.de)
by smtp.web.de with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128)
(WEB.DE 4.99 #459)
id 1AAFNG-0001b0-00
for sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:09:35 +0200
Message-ID: <3F**************@PointedEars.de>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:10:23 +0200
From: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <Po*********@web.de>
Reply-To: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <ma**@PointedEars.de>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5)
Gecko/20030925
X-Accept-Language: de-de, de, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: how to turn off meta-refresh ?
References: <13**************************@posting.google.com >
<13**************************@posting.google.com >
<bm************@ID-107532.news.uni-berlin.de>
<aU**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <aU**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: Po*********@web.de

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And my second (and final) attempt resulted in:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your message could not be delivered to the following recipients
po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk

Reporting-MTA: dns; merlyn.demon.co.uk
Received-From-MTA: smtp; lon1-punt3-4.mail.demon.net
Arrival-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:26:30 +0100

Final-Recipient: rfc822; po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0

Return-Path: <Po*********@web.de>
Received: from lon1-punt3-4.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.167])
by merlyn.demon.co.uk with SMTP id <ox**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
for <po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk> ; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:26:30 +0100
Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore
for po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk id 1AAUiU-0002dm-ET;
Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:00:25 +0000
Received: from [217.72.192.164] (helo=mailgate3.cinetic.de)
by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1AAUiU-0002dm-ET
for po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:30 +0000
Received: from smtp.web.de (fmsmtp03.dlan.cinetic.de [172.20.0.183])
by mailgate3.cinetic.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with ESMTP
id h9HCS3313416
for <po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk>; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:28:04 +0200
Received: from erf2-d9b989ad.pool.mediaways.net ([217.185.137.173] helo=web.de)
by smtp.web.de with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128)
(WEB.DE 4.99 #459)
id 1AATf9-0004yh-00
for po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:25:00 +0200
Message-ID: <3F**************@PointedEars.de>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:25:28 +0200
From: "Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de>
Reply-To: "Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <ma**@PointedEars.de>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5)
Gecko/20030925
X-Accept-Language: de-de, de, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Dr John Stockton <po********@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: how to turn off meta-refresh ?
References: <13**************************@posting.google.com >
<13**************************@posting.google.com >
<bm************@ID-107532.news.uni-berlin.de>
<aU**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <aU**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature";
micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060801090207040006010505"
Sender: Po*********@web.de

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You are in fact violating RFCs 1036, 1855 and 2822.

I will be glad if you send me an e-mail and allow me to
provide further explanation of the problems.

Therefore: F'up2 poster, my Reply-To address is (of course)
valid and read regularly.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
JRS: In article <3F**************@PointedEars.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:13:58 :-
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <bm************@ID-107532.news.uni-berlin.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:48:28 :-
dan baker wrote:

bo*****@yahoo.com (dan baker) wrote in message
news:<13**************************@posting.google. com>...

Please shorten this to an attribution _line_.
You are being silly, IMHO, unless you can provide a reference to a
Usenet Standard that calls for a single line.


Well, it is called attribution _line_ (and not attribution novel) for the
reason that it should only provide information who wrote the quoted text,
especially when there is more than one quoting level. The other information
(like message ID, newsgroup(s) name, the sender's address, posting date and
time) can be easily retrieved via and from the headers of the postings by
people who are interested in it.


Evidently you do not understand the full variety of circumstances under
which someone who has a copy of an article can make use of an
informative attribution. Be aware, for example, that someone who has
saved a copy of an article which *quotes* an attribution line has not
saved the header of the attributing article.

Evidently you are unable to provide a reference to a Usenet Standard
calling for single-line attributions.

Please do note that I did not want to discuss there here off-topic in
the first place, but you leave me no choice:


Since you make inappropriate complaint about newsgroup postings, it is
in the newsgroup that you must be shown to be incapable of justifying
your unfounded assertion.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
[...]
Evidently you do not understand the full variety of circumstances under
which someone who has a copy of an article can make use of an
informative attribution. Be aware, for example, that someone who has
saved a copy of an article which *quotes* an attribution line has not
saved the header of the attributing article.
Evidently you do not understand what headers are and what their function
is. Most news clients are saving headers with articles (see the .eml format
for example) and one can include the information *when* *required*.

Evidently you do not know of news archives like Google Groups,
where one can (in most cases) re-read whole discussions when a
single message ID or even a keyword has been provided.
Evidently you are unable to provide a reference to a Usenet Standard
calling for single-line attributions.
Evidently you do not understand what a readable posting is, and
that you write for your readers, not for posing yourselves.
Please do note that I did not want to discuss there here off-topic in
the first place, but you leave me no choice:


Since you make inappropriate complaint about newsgroup postings, it is

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in the newsgroup that you must be shown to be incapable of justifying
your unfounded assertion.


It was merely a plea along with an on-topic and (hopefully) a helpful
answer. In contrast, your answers and the subject of my plea are completely
off-topic here.

And evidently you do not even think about paying respect to core Internet
and Usenet standards, namely not using a valid e-mail address (as stated
by RFCs 1036 and 2822), not having installed the `postmaster' account for
your(?) sub-level domain (as stated by RFC 1173), and not obeying the core
rules of Netiquette (RFC 1855), so I do not see the point of discussing
the justification of (my) statements by those standards with you.
EOD

F'up2 PointedEars (again)

Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
That's invalid HTML, AFAIK only IE for Windows will accept the code.


No, the vast majority of browsers will,


The vast majority of browser is not all browsers.
Besides, there are user agents other than browsers.
in fact I don't know of any which won't (either taking it as their
default type or understanding the language attribute)
It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not sure where you got the idea.
,--------<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>--------
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated. This attribute specifies the scripting language of the
| contents of this element. Its value is an identifier for the language,
| but since these identifiers are not standard, this attribute has been
| deprecated in favor of type.
The `script' element requires a `type' attribute to define the MIME type
of the code. And the `language' attribute is deprecated. If you use it for
backwards compatibility with older user agents, do not specify the version.


There's no reason to include it for anyone,


The reason is that you create valid HTML which causes web pages to stay
functional for the foreseeable future. The trend is that user agents
become more and more standards compliant, so authors are wise to obey
the standards.
while window.setInterval(...) requires
JavaScript 1.2 support. (I'm aware that recent UAs support at least JS 1.2.)


setInterval has nothing to do with the javascript level,


s/level/version/
it's a DOM object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years
old support it.


Before the W3C-DOM (October 1998) there was no idea of a DOM, and what we
call host objects of a DOM now were previously part of the core language.

http://devedge.netscape.com/library/...w.html#1203669

(Find the setTimeout(...) method originating from JavaScript 1.0 in the
same document.)

The W3C-DOM Level 2 Candidate Recommendation called that part, supported
by Netscape Navigator 3.0 and Internet Explorer 3.0, "DOM Level 0":

http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/CR-DOM-Lev.../glossary.html

Namely Netscape Navigator up to version 4.x implemented the next versions
of javascript:

http://devedge.netscape.com/library/...e.html#1003267

With Mozilla/5.0 implementing JavaScript 1.5 (which is based upon
ECMAScript Edition 3), those UA dependent parts have been moved from
the Core Reference to the Gecko DOM Reference:

http://mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/
if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */


There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);

adding explicitely a property to the `window' object. Then the property
can be checked for existence so that the timeout is only cleared if one
has been set before.
* Timeout should start when the document has been completely loaded,
* but the `onload' event handler is not supported by all UAs, so we
* place the script at the end of the `body' element.


Please name such a UA!


The `onload' attribute was introduced in HTML 4.01, so
all user agents supporting only HTML 3.2 will ignore it.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:52:27 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">

That's invalid HTML, AFAIK only IE for Windows will accept the code.


No, the vast majority of browsers will,


The vast majority of browser is not all browsers.
Besides, there are user agents other than browsers.


Carry on, tell us one that fail... It's not even invalid HTML.
in fact I don't know of any which won't (either taking it as their
default type or understanding the language attribute)
It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not sure where you got the idea.


,--------<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>--------
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated.


Yes, _deprecated_ not non-standard, it will only not work at all in
non html user agents such as X-Smiles or SVG UA's. Of course then it
would be ignored.
it's a DOM object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years
old support it.


Before the W3C-DOM (October 1998) there was no idea of a DOM, and what we
call host objects of a DOM now were previously part of the core language.


No they weren't Microsoft has always considered them distinct, it was
only Netscape documentation that didn't. If you look at the CLJ FAQ
from July 1998, you'll see that there's a question "What is the DOM"
if it didn't exist until October, they're pretty f'ing prescient.
There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


No, that is not correct, for the same reasons I gave before (window
does not _have_ to be the global object name) however the above is
not equivalent to the previous code (the setTimeout executed
immediately and window.myrefresh containing the returned object.
Unlikely what you want.
Please name such a UA!


The `onload' attribute was introduced in HTML 4.01, so
all user agents supporting only HTML 3.2 will ignore it.


No, Please name such a UA, There are no user agents supporting only
HTML 3.2.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F************@PointedEars.de...
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">

That's invalid HTML, AFAIK only IE for Windows will accept
the code.
No, the vast majority of browsers will,
The vast majority of browser is not all browsers.
Besides, there are user agents other than browsers.
in fact I don't know of any which won't (either taking it as their
default type or understanding the language attribute)
It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not sure where you got
the idea.
As I recall IE is the browser least tolerant of specified language
attributes as - language=JavaScript1.3 - (or greater) will not be loaded
by IE 5.0 (at least), while JScript 5+ actually implements most of the
JavaScript 1.4/5 features.
,----<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>-----
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated. ...
Deprecated? So strictly it is only invalid HTML 4 Strict but still valid
(if not recommended) in looser DTDs.
The `script' element requires a `type' attribute to define the
MIME type of the code. And the `language' attribute is deprecated.
If you use it for backwards compatibility with older user agents,
do not specify the version. There's no reason to include it for anyone,


The reason is that you create valid HTML which causes web pages to stay
functional for the foreseeable future. The trend is that user agents
become more and more standards compliant, so authors are wise to obey
the standards.


I read Jim as saying that there is never a reason for using the language
attribute (and by extension a language version) so his comment has no
baring on the creation of valid Strict HTML 4.

<snip> if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */


There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


I don't see the point of using references relative to - window - in this
context. The interpreter is going to have to resolve the references to -
window - by traversing the scope chain to the global object, which is
exactly what it would have to do to resolve - myrefresh - or -
setTimeout - if used in isolation. The difference seems just to be that
with the - window - reference a second property look-up is needed on the
object referenced by - window - (assuming the global window property
exists in the environment). If the scope resolution is in question then
that applies equally to - window - as it would for - setTimeout - and
otherwise using - window - imposes a performance penalty without any
reliability gain.
adding explicitely a property to the `window' object. Then the property
can be checked for existence so that the timeout is only cleared if one
has been set before.


A type-converting-to-boolean test on an undeclared global identifier
will produce errors where the same test on the property accessor of a
non-existent global property will not, but typeof tests do not suffer
the same problem so the property accessor syntax is not required when
testing global properties/variables (just potentially useful under some
circumstances).
<snip>

Richard.
Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
ji*@jibbering.com (Jim Ley) writes:
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
....
It's not even invalid HTML.


But it is invalid HTML *4*, since the required attribute "type" is
omitted. I can't find a reference to the language attribute in HTML
3.2 at all.
The `onload' attribute was introduced in HTML 4.01, so
all user agents supporting only HTML 3.2 will ignore it.


No, Please name such a UA, There are no user agents supporting only
HTML 3.2.


I would have thought Netscape 2 or Opera 4 would be worth a try, but both
support the body onload attribute.

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
Art D'HTML: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/randomArtSplit.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">

That's invalid HTML, [...]
[...]
It's not even invalid HTML.
OK, that was exaggerated. It is not valid HTML 4.01 Strict.
in fact I don't know of any which won't (either taking it as their
default type or understanding the language attribute)
It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not sure where you got the idea.


,--------<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>--------
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated.


Yes, _deprecated_ not non-standard,


ACK
it will only not work at all in non html user agents such as X-Smiles
or SVG UA's. Of course then it would be ignored.
Depends on what you call `work'. It will not work in Mozilla/5.0 and
IE 6 *as* *assumed*, because those user agents don't care what version
you specify there, they execute that code anyway. On the other hand,
IE 5 (which I can't test here) won't execute code that is within
language="JavaScript1.3" (or greater) as stated by Richard.
it's a DOM object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years
old support it.


Before the W3C-DOM (October 1998) there was no idea of a DOM, and what we
call host objects of a DOM now were previously part of the core language.


No they weren't Microsoft has always considered them distinct,


URL?
it was only Netscape documentation that didn't. If you look at the CLJ
FAQ from July 1998, you'll see that there's a question "What is the DOM"
if it didn't exist until October, they're pretty f'ing prescient.
The first working draft of W3C-DOM Level 1 dates from about a year earlier,
09-Oct-1997.
There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


No, that is not correct, for the same reasons I gave before (window
does not _have_ to be the global object name) [...]


Read again. I create a new property for the `window' object and assign
the result of window.setTimeout(...) which is in fact only an integer.
Then I can use that property value as argument for window.clearTimeout(...)
without any problems. I could use `foobar' instead of `window' and it
will of course still work as long as `foobar' exists.
Please name such a UA!


The `onload' attribute was introduced in HTML 4.01, so
all user agents supporting only HTML 3.2 will ignore it.


No, Please name such a UA,


MyTinyBrowserWhichIWriteNow supports JavaScript, but
only HTML 3.2 for a faster Web experience. And now?
There are no user agents supporting only HTML 3.2.


This is false by definition, there *must* *be* UAs supporting only HTML 3.2,
because HTML 4.0 dates from December 1999 (and -- because you go for dates
-- the first working draft that mentions event handlers from 17-Sep-1997).
They *may* *be* not of the recent ones, but they *exist* anyway.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F************@PointedEars.de...


Please shorten this to one line, thanks.
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
That's invalid HTML, [...]

[...]
,----<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>-----
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated. ...


Deprecated? So strictly it is only invalid HTML 4 Strict but still valid
(if not recommended) in looser DTDs.


ACK, that part was exaggerated.
if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */

There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


I don't see the point of using references relative to - window - in this
context.


The whole point is that I check the variable/property before I am accessing
it in the window.clearTimeout(...) call. Because of what Jim stated above I
use the `window' object and create a new property, as for the timeout the
`window' object is used anyway.
adding explicitely a property to the `window' object. Then the property
can be checked for existence so that the timeout is only cleared if one
has been set before.


A type-converting-to-boolean test on an undeclared global identifier
will produce errors where the same test on the property accessor of a
non-existent global property will not, but typeof tests do not suffer
the same problem so the property accessor syntax is not required when
testing global properties/variables (just potentially useful under some
circumstances).


ACK, but `typeof' was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">

That's invalid HTML, [...]
[...]
It's not even invalid HTML.
OK, that was exaggerated. It is not valid HTML *4* since the `type'
attribute is not `IMPLIED' in the HTML 4.01 DTD, neither Strict nor
Transitional.
in fact I don't know of any which won't (either taking it as their
default type or understanding the language attribute)
It's not even an IE invention, so I'm not sure where you got the idea.


,--------<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>--------
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated.


Yes, _deprecated_ not non-standard,


ACK
it will only not work at all in non html user agents such as X-Smiles
or SVG UA's. Of course then it would be ignored.
Depends on what you call `work'. It will not work in Mozilla/5.0 and
IE 6 *as* *assumed*, because those user agents don't care what version
you specify there, they execute that code anyway. On the other hand,
IE 5 (which I can't test here) won't execute code that is within
language="JavaScript1.3" (or greater) as stated by Richard.
it's a DOM object, although in effect "all" UA's less than 5 years
old support it.


Before the W3C-DOM (October 1998) there was no idea of a DOM, and what we
call host objects of a DOM now were previously part of the core language.


No they weren't Microsoft has always considered them distinct,


URL?
it was only Netscape documentation that didn't. If you look at the CLJ
FAQ from July 1998, you'll see that there's a question "What is the DOM"
if it didn't exist until October, they're pretty f'ing prescient.
The first working draft of W3C-DOM Level 1 dates from about a year earlier,
09-Oct-1997.
There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


No, that is not correct, for the same reasons I gave before (window
does not _have_ to be the global object name) [...]


Read again. I create a new property for the `window' object and assign
the result of window.setTimeout(...) which is in fact only an integer.
Then I can use that property value as argument for window.clearTimeout(...)
without any problems. I could use `foobar' instead of `window' and it
will of course still work as long as `foobar' exists.
Please name such a UA!


The `onload' attribute was introduced in HTML 4.01, so
all user agents supporting only HTML 3.2 will ignore it.


No, Please name such a UA,


MyTinyBrowserWhichIWriteNow supports JavaScript, but
only HTML 3.2 for a faster Web experience. Therefore
it doesn't support the language-Attribute and not the
`onload' or any other intrinsic event handler. And now?
There are no user agents supporting only HTML 3.2.


This is false by definition, there *must* *be* UAs supporting only HTML 3.2,
because HTML 4.0 dates from December 1999 (and -- because you go for dates
-- the first working draft that mentions event handlers from 17-Sep-1997).
They *may* *be* not of the recent ones, but they *exist* anyway.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F************@PointedEars.de...


Please shorten this to one line, thanks.
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
dan baker wrote:
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.1">
That's invalid HTML, [...]

[...]
,----<http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1>-----
| language = cdata [CI]
| Deprecated. ...


Deprecated? So strictly it is only invalid HTML 4 Strict but still valid
(if not recommended) in looser DTDs.


ACK, but it's not valid HTML *4* at all if the `type' attribute is missing.
if (window.myRefresh /* global variables are properties of the
container object; no property, no
clearing necessary */

There's no requirement that variables be part of a global object
called window, [...] I also know of UA's which don't put their
global variable as part of the window object and the above check
would fail - I wouldn't recommend doing it)


You are right, the proper way is

window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


I don't see the point of using references relative to - window - in this
context.


The whole point is that I check the variable/property before I am accessing
it in the window.clearTimeout(...) call. Because of what Jim stated above I
use the `window' object and create a new property, as for the timeout the
`window' object is used anyway.
adding explicitely a property to the `window' object. Then the property
can be checked for existence so that the timeout is only cleared if one
has been set before.


A type-converting-to-boolean test on an undeclared global identifier
will produce errors where the same test on the property accessor of a
non-existent global property will not, but typeof tests do not suffer
the same problem so the property accessor syntax is not required when
testing global properties/variables (just potentially useful under some
circumstances).


ACK, but `typeof' was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #24

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:36:45 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);


No, that is not correct, for the same reasons I gave before (window
does not _have_ to be the global object name) [...]


Read again. I create a new property for the `window' object and assign
the result of window.setTimeout(...) which is in fact only an integer.


However you don't create the "window" object, so that's rather unsafe,
which is my point, neither assmuing the global object is called
window, nor assuming there is a window object is safe (I did
mis-understand what you were intending the code to do - apologies)
There are no user agents supporting only HTML 3.2.


This is false by definition, there *must* *be* UAs supporting
only HTML 3.2,


No, because HTML 3.2 was written such that it described the existing
behaviour of a variety of browsers, it wasn't a standard to be
implemented, and no browsers did implement, they just carried on being
bugwards compatible with the others.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #25

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:38:15 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F************@PointedEars.de...


Please shorten this to one line, thanks.


No, it's appropriate as 2 to contain all the information, not all
newsreaders are threading, not all news posters are threading and the
article may stand alone out of context from the header, there is
nothing inappropriate about 2 line citations.
Deprecated? So strictly it is only invalid HTML 4 Strict but still valid
(if not recommended) in looser DTDs.


ACK, but it's not valid HTML *4* at all if the `type' attribute is missing.


Well given that you're posting fragments we neither know if you're
serving HTML 4 - or have used an internal subset to add in a default
value.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #26

P: n/a
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F**************@PointedEars.de...
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in
message news:3F************@PointedEars.de...
Please shorten this to one line, thanks.


Why? You have been asked to cite a (any) Usenet standard that will
support your request and so far you haven't, and your argument to date
seems to hinge on stressing the word "line" in "attribution line". If
line means CR (&/|) LF terminated sequence of text I could make the
above into one line by just setting the margins in my news software to
110+ characters and apparently satisfy your criteria. I can see no
reason for doing that as the chances are that it would still be viewed
as two or more lines in most newsreader software, and even your 24
character attribution of me might be displayed across two lines if the
recipient had their viewing window set up sufficiently narrow (granted
that is unlikely).

You might just as easily stress "attribution" and consider what is
required to attribute. You and I may be using identifiers that are
unlikely to be confused with others but in the UK the name John Smith,
for example, is sufficiently common that one individual using that name
would not necessarily be distinguishable from another without an
accompanying email address (even if fake). And if you are going to say
that some individual wrote something it has got to be worth saying where
they wrote it, for which the message ID is probably the most
discriminating identifier available.

I can certainly see grounds for commenting on excessive (and irrelevant)
content in "attribution lines" but if you want to take the term that
literally can you justify loosing "attribution" for the sake of "line"?

<snip>The whole point is that I check the variable/property before I
am accessing it in the window.clearTimeout(...) call.
Reasonable, but that could still be done with a typeof test.
Because of what Jim stated above I use the `window' object and
create a new property, as for the timeout the `window' object
is used anyway.
Are you saying that the setTimout/Interval call must follow - window. -
? That is not true.

<snip>ACK, but `typeof' was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.


And fortunately JavaScript 1.0 environments are no longer in use.

Richard.
Jul 20 '05 #27

P: n/a
Jim Ley wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:36:45 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Please shorten this to one line, thanks.
Jim Ley wrote:
window.myrefresh = window.setTimeout(...);

No, that is not correct, for the same reasons I gave before (window
does not _have_ to be the global object name) [...]


Read again. I create a new property for the `window' object and assign
the result of window.setTimeout(...) which is in fact only an integer.


However you don't create the "window" object, so that's rather unsafe,


Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.
which is my point, neither assmuing the global object is called
window, nor assuming there is a window object is safe (I did
mis-understand what you were intending the code to do - apologies)


I am using window.setTimeout(...) to set the timeout. Do the other
user agents you know where the global object is not `window' provide
$globalObject.setTimeout(...) and $globalObject.clearTimeout(...)
with the same functionality? If not, this is merely of academical
interest.
There are no user agents supporting only HTML 3.2.


This is false by definition, there *must* *be* UAs supporting
only HTML 3.2,


No, because HTML 3.2 was written such that it described the existing
behaviour of a variety of browsers, it wasn't a standard to be
implemented, [...]


ACK
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #28

P: n/a
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F**************@PointedEars.de...
Richard Cornford wrote:
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in
message news:3F************@PointedEars.de...
Please shorten this to one line, thanks.


Why? You have been asked to cite a (any) Usenet standard that will
support your request and so far you haven't,


Grepping through the RFCs I have found no standard that supports that, but
that is not important at all. Parts of Son-of-RFC-1036, e.g., which one day
may *become* only a *draft* (maybe in this millenium ;-)) are already obeyed
by NetNews software, and RFC 1036 which an important base of NetNews calls
itself `Standard' but is not even on the IETFs standards track. Sum: Not
everything must be standardized to be reasonable and therefore acceptable.
and your argument to date seems to hinge on stressing the word "line"
in "attribution line".
No, re-read my answer(s). It hinges on the easy readability of a posting/
thread which is a Good Thing. Header information included in the attribution
line that may be *someday* of use for *someone* doesn't compensate for a
more difficult following of a discussion, mentally ignoring superfluous
information when reading *now*.
<snip>
The whole point is that I check the variable/property before I
am accessing it in the window.clearTimeout(...) call.
Reasonable, but that could still be done with a typeof test.


I did not doubt that.
Because of what Jim stated above I use the `window' object and
create a new property, as for the timeout the `window' object
is used anyway.


Are you saying that the setTimout/Interval call must follow - window. -
?


No.
That is not true.
I know, because `window' is the global object here -- as tests with
Netscape 3.0 to 7.1, IE 6 and Opera (all under Win2k) have proven.
But can you name a user agent where the global object is _not_ `window'
_and_ provides $globalObject.setTimeout/clearTimeout?
<snip>
ACK, but `typeof' was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.


And fortunately JavaScript 1.0 environments are no longer in use.


How do you know for sure?
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #29

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:45:39 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:36:45 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Please shorten this to one line, thanks.


Please stop wasting lines saying this, thanks.Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.
So that would be relevant to precisely one user agent? (Netscape 4).

Generally we try and talk about all ECMAScript implementations now
commonly known as javascript here, otherwise life would be really very
dull.
I am using window.setTimeout(...) to set the timeout. Do the other
user agents you know where the global object is not `window' provide
$globalObject.setTimeout(...) and $globalObject.clearTimeout(...)
with the same functionality? If not, this is merely of academical
interest.


Yep! They certainly do.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #30

P: n/a
"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" <Po*********@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F**************@PointedEars.de...
<snip>
Grepping through the RFCs I have found no standard that
supports that, but that is not important at all. <snip>

It is important if you want to persuade other people to adopt a course
of action that they otherwise perceive to be completely arbitrary.
and your argument to date seems to hinge on stressing
the word "line" in "attribution line".


No, re-read my answer(s). It hinges on the easy readability
of a posting/ thread which is a Good Thing. Header information
included in the attribution line that may be *someday* of use
for *someone* doesn't compensate for a more difficult following
of a discussion, mentally ignoring superfluous information when
reading *now*.


Personally I don't find that the number of carriage return/line feed
pairs in an attribution line has any impact on my ability to easily
comprehend news postings.

<snip.But can you name a user agent where the global object is _not_
`window' _and_ provides $globalObject.setTimeout/clearTimeout?


I don't see the relevance of this. I have been questioning the worth of
referring to properties of the global object relative to a - window -
reference because that is unnecessary and must be fractionally slower. I
do not doubt that a property accessor syntax relative to a - window -
reference will be effective on JavaScript capable HTML web browses (at
least where setTimeout/Interval are concerned) but why do that when it
is unnecessary?
ACK, but `typeof' was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.


And fortunately JavaScript 1.0 environments are no longer in use.


How do you know for sure?


Nothing is known for sure, but if there were JavaScript 1.0 environments
in use this group is where I would expect to here about them. What I do
know with almost certainty is that anyone still using a JavaScript 1.0
web browser is not finding doing so a productive activity these days.

Richard.
Jul 20 '05 #31

P: n/a
Jim Ley <ji*@jibbering.com> wrote with Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 in
comp.lang.javascript on October 19, 2003 07:33 Central European Summer
Time about "Re: how to turn off meta-refresh ?" with the message-id
<3f***************@news.cis.dfn.de> a followup to the posting with the
message-id <3F**************@PointedEars.de> while the temperature outside
here was about 21.7C, quite warm for the season and daytime (or was it the
infrared radiation from the heating?) the following 32 lines:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:36:45 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.
So that would be relevant to precisely one user agent?
(Netscape 4).


No, how do you get that idea?
Generally we try and talk about all ECMAScript implementations now
commonly known as javascript here, otherwise life would be really very
dull.


I really don't see the point.

JavaScript 1.3 is according to Netscapes Core JavaScript Reference
a fully compatible implementation of ECMAScript Ed. 1 and includes
host objects like `window' anyway.
I am using window.setTimeout(...) to set the timeout. Do the other
user agents you know where the global object is not `window' provide
$globalObject.setTimeout(...) and $globalObject.clearTimeout(...)
with the same functionality? If not, this is merely of academical
interest.


Yep! They certainly do.


ACK
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #32

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:22:57 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Jim Ley <ji*@jibbering.com> wrote with Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 in
Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.
So that would be relevant to precisely one user agent?
(Netscape 4).


No, how do you get that idea?


Because Netscape 4, is the only user agent that ever implemented
JavaScript 1.3 - Mozilla has JavaScript 1.5, IE has had various
JScript implementations, Konqueror and Safari have KJS
implementations, iCab and Opera have their own ECMAScript
implementations - sure we know they're all pretty similar to
JavaScript, but they are not JavaScript 1.3 (there's no watch for
example)
JavaScript 1.3 is according to Netscapes Core JavaScript Reference
a fully compatible implementation of ECMAScript Ed. 1 and includes
host objects like `window' anyway.


You're freely allowed to add objects to ECMAScript (it would be a
useless language if you didn't, but that doesn't make your extensions
part of the language.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #33

P: n/a
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
Jim Ley <ji*@jibbering.com> wrote with Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 in
Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.

So that would be relevant to precisely one user agent?
(Netscape 4).
No, how do you get that idea?


Because Netscape 4, is the only user agent that ever implemented
JavaScript 1.3 [...]


Read the Client-Side JavaScript (1.3) Reference[1] and you see that the
window object and most of its methods were implemented in JavaScript 1.0.
I wrote `*up to* version 1.3' for a reason. And that includes at least
Netscape Navigator 2.0 to 4.8.[2]

[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/library/...1.3/reference/
[2]
http://devedge.netscape.com/library/...e.html#1003267
JavaScript 1.3 is according to Netscapes Core JavaScript Reference
a fully compatible implementation of ECMAScript Ed. 1 and includes
host objects like `window' anyway.


You're freely allowed to add objects to ECMAScript


I know.
[...], but that doesn't make your extensions part of the language.


Not part of ECMAScript, but part of JavaScript which Netscape has done.
See the difference?
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #34

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:29:11 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:
Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [...] wrote:
Jim Ley <ji*@jibbering.com> wrote with Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 in
>Depends. As stated before, `window' and its properties are
>part of the core JavaScript language up to version 1.3.

So that would be relevant to precisely one user agent?
(Netscape 4).

No, how do you get that idea?


Because Netscape 4, is the only user agent that ever implemented
JavaScript 1.3 [...]


Read the Client-Side JavaScript (1.3) Reference[1] and you see that the
window object and most of its methods were implemented in JavaScript 1.0.
I wrote `*up to* version 1.3' for a reason. And that includes at least
Netscape Navigator 2.0 to 4.8.[2]


Oh right, okay, NN 2-4.8, still completely irrelevant to 99% of the
questions on this groups and certainly not relevant to the start of
this thread where you were mentioning IE and "recent UA's" - you
didn't mention << NN4 then - I also don't agree that the
documentation your citing actually supports your case, the
documentation being for "javascript language and its objects", but
even if it does (and it's debateable) it's not particularly relevant.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #35

P: n/a
JRS: In article <3F**************@PointedEars.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:45:39 :-
Jim Ley wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:36:45 +0200, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> wrote:


Please shorten this to one line, thanks.


The size of an attribution is at the discretion of the poster; AIUI, you
can cite no authority that states otherwise.

Desist.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 20 '05 #36

P: n/a
JRS: In article <3F**************@PointedEars.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Sun, 19 Oct 2003 08:02:48 :-
Dr John Stockton wrote:
[...]
Evidently you do not understand the full variety of circumstances under
which someone who has a copy of an article can make use of an
informative attribution. Be aware, for example, that someone who has
saved a copy of an article which *quotes* an attribution line has not
saved the header of the attributing article.
Evidently you do not understand what headers are and what their function
is. Most news clients are saving headers with articles (see the .eml format
for example) and one can include the information *when* *required*.


The information in an attribution is not contained in the header of the
article containing the attribution; it is extracted from the header of
the article being replied to. The attribution adds to the information
content of the article containing it. When an article is saved for
longer than one's news client normally saves articles, it is probable
that, when later reading the saved article, its predecessor will not be
locally available.

Evidently you do not know of news archives like Google Groups,
where one can (in most cases) re-read whole discussions when a
single message ID or even a keyword has been provided.
News is a medium suited to off-line use; the Web, and GG in particular,
is not. I would not, of course, support re-posting in News of large
quantities of material that can be recovered from the Web; but the
modest amount that many of us include can be useful to those reading the
article in News, or reading a stored copy.

And evidently you do not even think about paying respect to core Internet
and Usenet standards, namely not using a valid e-mail address (as stated
by RFCs 1036 and 2822), not having installed the `postmaster' account for
your(?) sub-level domain (as stated by RFC 1173), and not obeying the core
rules of Netiquette (RFC 1855), so I do not see the point of discussing
the justification of (my) statements by those standards with you.


You continue with your false assumptions. You do not understand what
has occurred in this case.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 20 '05 #37

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
[...] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [wrote:]
Evidently you do not understand what headers are and what their function
is. Most news clients are saving headers with articles (see the .eml format
for example) and one can include the information *when* *required*.
The information in an attribution is not contained in the header of the
article containing the attribution; it is extracted from the header of
the article being replied to.


I get the idea that you really think that this information was new to me.
The attribution adds to the information content of the article containing
it. When an article is saved for longer than one's news client normally
saves articles, it is probable that, when later reading the saved article,
its predecessor will not be locally available.
You may want to explain why it is then necessary to know when
the unavailable article was posted and in which newsgroup ...
Evidently you do not know of news archives like Google Groups,
where one can (in most cases) re-read whole discussions when a
single message ID or even a keyword has been provided.


News is a medium suited to off-line use; the Web, and GG in particular,
is not.


.... if you do not accept even the Web/Google Groups as an
appropriate medium of investigation.
I would not, of course, support re-posting in News of large
quantities of material that can be recovered from the Web;
Non sequitur. I don't recommend people to act as a Human gateway either.
but the modest amount
Since replies can contain down to only one line of new information,
IMHO three lines of meta information is not a modest amount.
that many of us include can be useful
to those reading the article in News, or reading a stored copy.


You oppose yourself. If one maintains a local news archive, they would
use most certainly a software that can follow references. And if the
article expires, its posting date is barely of interest any longer.

If one doesn't maintain such an archive, they would have access to the
Internet/Usenet and can access the thread for the stored posting somehow,
in the unlikely case that this is required. If they don't have immediate
access, they would have saved the whole thread in the first place.
And evidently you do not even think about paying respect to core Internet
and Usenet standards, namely not using a valid e-mail address (as stated
by RFCs 1036 and 2822), not having installed the `postmaster' account for
your(?) sub-level domain (as stated by RFC 1173), and not obeying the core
rules of Netiquette (RFC 1855), so I do not see the point of discussing
the justification of (my) statements by those standards with you.


You continue with your false assumptions. You do not understand what
has occurred in this case.


Then why don't you enlighten me and explain what has occured in this case?
So far I only got a bounce when sending you e-mail using the substring you
used in the `From:' header as e-mail address, and I must therefore conclude
that it is no e-mail address. So far I got a bounce when addressing the
`postmaster' account for the domain part of that substring and I must
therefore conclude that either the host is misconfigured or that this domain
cannot receive e-mail at all.
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #38

P: n/a
JRS: In article <3F**************@PointedEars.de>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Po*********@web.de> posted at Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:43:21 :-

You continue with your false assumptions. You do not understand what
has occurred in this case.
Then why don't you enlighten me and explain what has occured in this case?
So far I only got a bounce when sending you e-mail using the substring you
used in the `From:' header as e-mail address, and I must therefore conclude
that it is no e-mail address. So far I got a bounce when addressing the
`postmaster' account for the domain part of that substring


That is, so far, in accordance with my expectations.
and I must
therefore conclude that either the host is misconfigured or that this domain
cannot receive e-mail at all.


That is, however, a false deduction.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 20 '05 #39

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:

[postmaster account bounced]
and I must
therefore conclude that either the host is misconfigured or that this domain
cannot receive e-mail at all.
That is, however, a false deduction.


An SMTP server with no postmaster account is misconfigured. Even if it is
deliberate. :)

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 20 '05 #40

P: n/a
JRS: In article <1x**********@hotpop.com>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen <lr*@hotpop.com>
posted at Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:32:05 :-
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:

[postmaster account bounced]
> and I must
>therefore conclude that either the host is misconfigured or that this domain
>cannot receive e-mail at all.

That is, however, a false deduction.


An SMTP server with no postmaster account is misconfigured. Even if it is
deliberate. :)

That is, of course, correct, in both parts; but your expectation of
relevance is based on a false assumption.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4
<URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/> Jim Ley's FAQ for news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> JS maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/JS/&c., FAQ topics, links.
Jul 20 '05 #41

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <1x**********@hotpop.com>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen <lr*@hotpop.com>
posted at Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:32:05 :-
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:

[postmaster account bounced]
> and I must
>therefore conclude that either the host is misconfigured or that this domain
>cannot receive e-mail at all.

That is, however, a false deduction.


An SMTP server with no postmaster account is misconfigured. Even if it is
deliberate. :)


That is, of course, correct, in both parts; but your expectation of
relevance is based on a false assumption.


You know, your evasive maneuvers are getting boring. Why don't you either
write what is exactly the case here or simply admit that you don't want to
receive any e-mail and therefore munged your `From:' header, against all
standards?
PointedEars

Jul 20 '05 #42

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:
That is, of course, correct, in both parts; but your expectation of
relevance is based on a false assumption.


There is ofcourse other explanations for bouncing the postmaster
account than not accepting mail at all or the postmaster account not
existing, e.g., transient failures or inability to receive mail from
certain hosts (e.g., those that have previously sent messages to
spam@merlyn...). Since merlyn.demon.co.uk has two MX servers
associated, and they are managed by demon.net, a major ISP if I
remember correctly, I would expect it to work.

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 20 '05 #43

P: n/a
JRS: In article <pt**********@hotpop.com>, seen in
news:comp.lang.javascript, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen <lr*@hotpop.com>
posted at Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:51:24 :-
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:
That is, of course, correct, in both parts; but your expectation of
relevance is based on a false assumption.


There is ofcourse other explanations for bouncing the postmaster
account than not accepting mail at all or the postmaster account not
existing, e.g., transient failures or inability to receive mail from
certain hosts (e.g., those that have previously sent messages to
spam@merlyn...). Since merlyn.demon.co.uk has two MX servers
associated, and they are managed by demon.net, a major ISP if I
remember correctly, I would expect it to work.


All is working as it is supposed to work.

The mere act of aiming a message at spam@merlyn does not, of itself,
make any changes to settings.

===

A discussion on rounding, and the failings of toFixed(), seems to be
starting in news:microsoft.public.scripting.jscript

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4
<URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/> Jim Ley's FAQ for news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> JS maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/JS/&c., FAQ topics, links.
Jul 20 '05 #44

This discussion thread is closed

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