Taking a class that may suck?

[jamesallen74]

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

thanks,
James

[Randy Webb]

Brian A said the following on 10/15/2007 5:02 PM:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:31:45 -0700, ja**********@gmail.com wrote:

>I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

thanks,
James

Firstly, let me recommend a book to you.
"DOM Scripting"
by Jeremy Keith
It is a well written book that explain things well.
It deals with best practice such as 'unobtrusive javascript'.
If you get it do go to the web site and check out any errors in the
book that you need to correct.

URL to the errata? And, is there a sample chapter or anything online
that could be reviewed without purchasing the book?

I was chatting today with someone who has just completed a computer
course. He had no idea about 'unobtrusive javascript' etc. So, not
all courses are helpful when it comes to best practice.
If you think Javascript is 'lame' check out AJAX technology. I think
you will soon change your mind about the usefulness of Javascript.
Just enter AJAX into Google and you'll find a Wikipedia an W3C schools
link, among others.

What is "lame" about javascript is the way it is attempted to be taught
in schools, not the language itself.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[Ben Crowell]

ja**********@gmail.com wrote:

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

I think the O'Reilly book (javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good. I'm not a js expert, but the book does
approach js as a programming language, rather than just showing
the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making the browser
do tricks.

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Ben Crowell wrote:

ja**********@gmail.com wrote:

>I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

I think the O'Reilly book (javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

I'm not a js expert,

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?

but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.

rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.
PointedEars
--
var bugRiddenCrashPronePieceOfJunk = (
navigator.userAgent.indexOf('MSIE 5') != -1
&& navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mac') != -1
) // Plone, register_function.js:16

[Randy Webb]

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 10/16/2007 2:51 AM:

Ben Crowell wrote:

>ja**********@gmail.com wrote:

>>I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

I think the O'Reilly book (javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

And the FAQ wording is not wrong.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:

Ben Crowell wrote:

>ja**********@gmail.com wrote:

>>I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

I think the O'Reilly book (javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

>I'm not a js expert,

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?

>but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.

>rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.

Its a lot better than 'javascript for dummies'

At least it contains real information, even if some of it is wrong..

>
PointedEars

[beegee]

On Oct 15, 5:50 pm, Randy Webb <[e-mail]:

>
The best resource you will *ever* find for Javascript is the
comp.lang.javascript Usenet group.

Quite true, in my experience. I was just hacking before I encountered
this group. The consensus on javascript programming discipline
expressed by the members and by the FAQ has helped me rein in a lot of
wild code and coders.

Also, due to the lack of social skills by a few of the regulars here,
the forum is often very entertaining even when it isn't
informational ;)

Bob

[jamesallen74]

Since there isn't really an agreement here, (and since some people are
more interested in bashing people than answering the original
question) I guess I will check out the FAQ.

So where is this famous FAQ section? I am reading this through Google
Groups. Looked all over and can't find it.

[Peter Michaux]

On Oct 15, 11:51 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <[e-mail]>
wrote:

Ben Crowell wrote:

[e-mail] wrote:

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

I think the O'Reilly book (javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

A beginner needs a book. It is a frequently asked question. The group
should make some sort of recommendation. Although it has errata and
sometimes a Java programming style, Flanagan's book is the right type
of book for a person wanting to learn JavaScript.

I'm not a js expert,

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?

A non-javascript expert is a good judge of certain aspects of a books
worth to non-experts.

but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.

rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.

If comp.lang.javascript members think that the existence of a good
book on JavaScript is important then give up the whole "I'm not his
editor" bit and email Flanagan with suggested changes. That or
comp.lang.javascript members could somehow organize and write a book
on JavaScript.

Peter

[Randy Webb]

Brian A said the following on 10/16/2007 5:40 AM:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:39:13 -0700, David Mark

<snip>

>In short, throw his book in the trash. If you want to learn how to
pop up a window, read the group FAQ.

Totally agreed.

Why not write to him and challenge him on the aspects of programming
you are not happy about.

Versus him posting hear and taking the initiative himself to improve his
book?

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[Randy Webb]

ja**********@gmail.com said the following on 10/16/2007 9:35 AM:

Since there isn't really an agreement here, (and since some people are
more interested in bashing people than answering the original
question) I guess I will check out the FAQ.

If you get 10 replies to your question, they will all be different. It
is what I alluded to in my first reply.

So where is this famous FAQ section?

http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html

I am reading this through Google Groups. Looked all over and can't find it.

A search of this group for the simple letters "FAQ" didn't return any
results? It does for me.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[Randy Webb]

Peter Michaux said the following on 10/16/2007 12:42 PM:

<snip>

That or comp.lang.javascript members could somehow organize
and write a book on JavaScript.

Give you 10-1 you couldn't never get the members here to even agree on a
name for the book and that would be before the introduction was written :)

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[Randy Webb]

Brian A said the following on 10/15/2007 6:21 PM:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:39:43 -0400, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.comwrote:

<snip>

>URL to the errata? And, is there a sample chapter or anything online
that could be reviewed without purchasing the book?

Errata and sample chapter.
http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590595335

Author's site.
http://domscripting.com/

Amazon
http://tinyurl.com/2d4weg

I am not going to repeat what has already been written, suffice it to
say that I wouldn't recommend that book for anything but starter paper
to build a fire.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Jeff North wrote:

The above could work for the intermediate programmer (a person with
some knowledge of another programming language) but not the novice.

Example: class here is a piece of code that we are going to walk
through. We've defined some global variables that will be used later
in our functions. There are 2 functions using several loop constructs
to walk through an array as well as conditional statements. Any
questions?

Yes, what is a variable
what is a function
what is a global variable
what is an array
what are these loops statements
what are these conditional statements
why is a comma used in some places and not others
why is the semicolon used in some places and not others
why do you use curly braces in some places and not others.

IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice doesn't
understand.

But you are talking about a class of novice programmers there, not a class
(or shall we say prototype? ;-)) of novice JS/ES programmers. The terms and
topics "(global) variable", "function", "array", "loop statements",
"conditional statements", operators and other punctuation in programming are
to be covered in a previous lesson that introduces the basics of
programming. These are not at all specific to ECMAScript implementations,
let alone JavaScript.

Besides, the purpose of any lesson should be to clear up remaining questions
of the students, so I don't see the problem. Unless, of course, you talk
preaching instead of teaching.

[...] Remove your pants to reply

No, I won't.
PointedEars

[Dr J R Stockton]

In comp.lang.javascript message <47**************@PointedEars.de>, Tue,
16 Oct 2007 08:51:45, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <Po*********@web.de>
posted:

>
It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

Then you should write and publish a book of your own, so that it may be
considered for recommendation.

With your style, it should sell nearly two copies.

You could also write an Alternative FAQ, and put it on your Web site.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zipTimo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.

[Richard Cornford]

"Jeff North" <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:

Richard Cornford wrote:

<snip>

>>|IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice
|doesn't understand.
|
| Who said that was where I was starting from? The point of
| teaching how to interpret the specification is to facilitate
| the translation form the general concepts to the specifics.
| The general concepts have to come first, but as I said (and
| you snipped), we don't know the real starting level of these
| students.

Read the OP's initial post.

Where it says "beginner & mid-level javascript" and nothing about
programming experience in other languages.

>>| I was mainly interested in conversing the things that a
| student trying to learn javascript would need to be taught
| before the job was finished.

Richard.