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FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?

P: n/a
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FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
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In a default security environment you are very limited in how much
you can modify the current browser window. You can use
` window.resizeTo ` or ` window.moveTo ` to resize or move a
window respectively, but that is it. Normally you can only
suggest chrome changes in a ` window.open `

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/a...ods/open_0.asp
===
Postings such as this are automatically sent once a day. Their
goal is to answer repeated questions, and to offer the content to
the community for continuous evaluation/improvement. The complete
comp.lang.javascript FAQ is at http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html.
The FAQ workers are a group of volunteers.

Mar 15 '07 #1
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31 Replies


P: n/a
In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:
>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents. Something like "... current browser window
properties?" might help. Any better offers?

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk DOS 3.3, 6.20 ; WinXP.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/- FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
PAS EXE TXT ZIP via <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/00index.htm>
My DOS <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/batfiles.htm- also batprogs.htm.
Mar 16 '07 #2

P: n/a
Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:
In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:
>>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?

To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents. Something like "... current browser window
properties?" might help. Any better offers?
Current browser window size and/or position on the screen.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Mar 16 '07 #3

P: n/a
In comp.lang.javascript message <Xn********************@194.109.133.242>
, Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:13:47, Evertjan. <ex**************@interxnl.net>
posted:
>Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:
>In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:
>>>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?

To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents. Something like "... current browser window
properties?" might help. Any better offers?

Current browser window size and/or position on the screen.
Except that a Subject Line ought to be a single line, when the window
width allows 72 characters of default text. And 'properties' also
applies to modification of other window features.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zipTimo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
Mar 16 '07 #4

P: n/a
"Evertjan." <ex**************@interxnl.netwrote in
news:Xn********************@194.109.133.242:
Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:
>In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:
>>>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?

To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents.
Actually, you can use "document.write" to rewrite the entire page. Be
careful about what you put into the head and body sections, because you
essentially destroy the original script used to create what you write.

I have found as well that it helps to make judicious use of "setTimeout" in
order to prevent a multithreaded browser from clobbering the code if the
thread executing the script gets ahead of the one creating it.

In a way, you can write self-modifying code even if your entire web site is
on a static server. It can serve as a method to "hide" things from script
kiddies, because by the time he uses the "View Source" command, the
original code is gone. (Of course, a hax0r knows how to see the original.)
Mar 17 '07 #5

P: n/a
Mike Duffy said the following on 3/16/2007 6:39 PM:
"Evertjan." <ex**************@interxnl.netwrote in
news:Xn********************@194.109.133.242:
>Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:
>>In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:

FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents.

Actually, you can use "document.write" to rewrite the entire page. Be
careful about what you put into the head and body sections, because you
essentially destroy the original script used to create what you write.
Which has nothing to do with the FAQ entry.
I have found as well that it helps to make judicious use of "setTimeout" in
order to prevent a multithreaded browser from clobbering the code if the
thread executing the script gets ahead of the one creating it.
There are no "multithreaded browsers" and/or script engines.
In a way, you can write self-modifying code even if your entire web site is
on a static server. It can serve as a method to "hide" things from script
kiddies, because by the time he uses the "View Source" command, the
original code is gone. (Of course, a hax0r knows how to see the original.)
It doesn't even take a "hax0r" (whatever that me be), it simply takes a
decent browser.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 17 '07 #6

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Randy Webb <Hi************@aol.comwrote in
news:DN********************@giganews.com:
Mike Duffy said the following on 3/16/2007 6:39 PM:
>"Evertjan." <ex**************@interxnl.netwrote in
news:Xn********************@194.109.133.242:
>>Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:

In comp.lang.javascript message
<45***********************@news.sunsite. dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007
00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.beposted:

FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
>Actually, you can use "document.write" to rewrite the entire page.
Which has nothing to do with the FAQ entry.
Re-writing the entire page should modify the browser window. Or is there a
distinction between the content of the window and properties of the window?
Both contents and properties would seem to be components.
There are no "multithreaded browsers" and/or script engines.
I noticed that the setTimeout would allow the reload to execute, so I guess
I made a bad assumption. If you leave it out, you end up with a completely
blank page. Multiple threads in the browser could explain this behaviour,
but I am willing to accept your assertion that they do not come into play.
So what else could it be?
It doesn't even take a "hax0r" (whatever that me be),
It was a (lame) attempt at a joke. It's how script kiddies spell "hacker".
Mar 17 '07 #7

P: n/a
Mike Duffy said the following on 3/17/2007 9:10 AM:
Randy Webb <Hi************@aol.comwrote in
news:DN********************@giganews.com:
>Mike Duffy said the following on 3/16/2007 6:39 PM:
>>"Evertjan." <ex**************@interxnl.netwrote in
news:Xn********************@194.109.133.242:

Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:

In comp.lang.javascript message
<45***********************@news.sunsite. dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007
00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.beposted:
>
>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
>>Actually, you can use "document.write" to rewrite the entire page.
>Which has nothing to do with the FAQ entry.

Re-writing the entire page should modify the browser window. Or is there a
distinction between the content of the window and properties of the window?
Both contents and properties would seem to be components.
With respect to that FAQ Entry, the "window" is the toolbars, borders
and such. The content is covered in 4.15 with DynWrite.
>There are no "multithreaded browsers" and/or script engines.

I noticed that the setTimeout would allow the reload to execute, so I guess
I made a bad assumption. If you leave it out, you end up with a completely
blank page. Multiple threads in the browser could explain this behaviour,
but I am willing to accept your assertion that they do not come into play.
So what else could it be?
It is a timing issue where the display won't get updated until current
script finishes executing. The setTimeout introduces a delay by causing
script execution to stop and start over. During that delay the display
gets updated.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 17 '07 #8

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 17, 10:16 pm, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
I noticed that the setTimeout would allow the reload to execute, so I guess
I made a bad assumption. If you leave it out, you end up with a completely
blank page. Multiple threads in the browser could explain this behaviour,
but I am willing to accept your assertion that they do not come into play.
So what else could it be?

It is a timing issue where the display won't get updated until current
script finishes executing. The setTimeout introduces a delay by causing
script execution to stop and start over. During that delay the display
gets updated.
Right, see the provisional FAQ entry at
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5

P.S. If FAQ Editor is anywhere around: are the technical problems
solved by now to add the FAQ to the common list?
Mar 17 '07 #9

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/17/2007 5:46 PM:
On Mar 17, 10:16 pm, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
>>I noticed that the setTimeout would allow the reload to execute, so I guess
I made a bad assumption. If you leave it out, you end up with a completely
blank page. Multiple threads in the browser could explain this behaviour,
but I am willing to accept your assertion that they do not come into play.
So what else could it be?
It is a timing issue where the display won't get updated until current
script finishes executing. The setTimeout introduces a delay by causing
script execution to stop and start over. During that delay the display
gets updated.

Right, see the provisional FAQ entry at
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
With "provisional" being the ky word
P.S. If FAQ Editor is anywhere around: are the technical problems
solved by now to add the FAQ to the common list?
"add the FAQ to the common list"? WTF are you talking about? Or do you
even know?

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 17 '07 #10

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 18, 1:09 am, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
"add the FAQ to the common list"? WTF are you talking about? Or do you
even know?
I mean to add the FAQ (FAQ entry) at
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
edited or as it is to c.l.j. FAQ list at
http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html

What in the name else could it mean?

At http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
I pointed to a very common misunderstanding of the underlaying
problem. You said:
"Somewhere in the archives (I can't find it right now) there are
several
threads where I asked about an entry of why the display isn't being
updated. Post a short text and lets see where it goes. I don't have a
problem
adding a new entry."

I posted an open for discussion entry text. You said that there is
some problem in adding it. Now I see you are using it for answers -
but not a single comment followed so far to the FAQ proposal itself.
This way it is reasonable to ask if any problems remained to schedule
for adding the entry - I'm not saying at all to drop everything and to
run to update the page right now.
Mar 17 '07 #11

P: n/a
In comp.lang.javascript message <DN********************@giganews.com>,
Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:57:34, Randy Webb <Hi************@aol.composted:
>Mike Duffy said the following on 3/16/2007 6:39 PM:
>"Evertjan." <ex**************@interxnl.netwrote in news:Xns98F5AF4
63**********@194.109.133.242:
>>Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:

In comp.lang.javascript message <45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:

FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?
To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents.
Actually, you can use "document.write" to rewrite the entire page.
Be careful about what you put into the head and body sections,
because you essentially destroy the original script used to create
what you write.

Which has nothing to do with the FAQ entry.
Agreed. But the Heading of a FAQ entry should indicate, as well as
possible within an appropriate length, what the entry is ABOUT; it
should be written so as to avoid misinterpretation.

That's particularly necessary when Section 4 contains entries in
"historic" order, rather than grouped by nature of content.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zipTimo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
Mar 17 '07 #12

P: n/a
"Randy Webb" <Hi************@aol.comwrote:
VK said the following on 3/17/2007 5:46 PM:
<snip>
>Right, see the provisional FAQ entry at
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5

With "provisional" being the ky word
<snip>

That post is not even "provisional". All it does is state that its author
is "proposing to add new FAQ entry", which may be true but is very much
internal to VK's mind. It does not state that anything in the post is
intended for wider consideration as such an entry and it does not employ
the formal mechanism for indicating such (the post contains no <FA****RY>
mark-up). As a result its status is something to be ignored, and it has
been.

Richard.

Mar 18 '07 #13

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 18, 1:46 pm, "Richard Cornford" <Rich...@litotes.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
That post is not even "provisional". All it does is state that its author
is "proposing to add new FAQ entry", which may be true but is very much
internal to VK's mind. It does not state that anything in the post is
intended for wider consideration as such an entry and it does not employ
the formal mechanism for indicating such (the post contains no <FA****RY>
mark-up).
I implore your pardon...

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FAQENTRYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."

Now:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
Post title:
"<FAQENTRY>I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the screen.
Why?</FAQENTRY>"

If FAQ editor wants to use my old proposal so to use XML-like formal
markup for FAQ proposals then I just welcome that. I will gladly
reformat the post in a form like:
<FAQENTRY>
<TITLE>
</TITLE>
<BODY>
</BODY>
</FAQENTRY>
If some other formal markup is preferable then just point me to an
instruction page. So far as I remember it was insisted to keep a free-
form format and until stated otherwise this is still in effect.

So far - and I have at least a dozen of rather recent cases - "placing
<FAQENTRYin your post" meant either "mark the post subject" or "mark
the relevant body part" or "mark both post subject and the relevant
body part". It also can be read as "place <FAQENTRYmarker anywhere
in your post" - though I do not recall such interpretation would be
ever used - yet it remains possible. If it is now insisted on only one
strict interpretation of "placing <FAQENTRYin your post" then again
I welcome that but I'm asking then to point to the - obviously newly
made - instruction page.

Mar 18 '07 #14

P: n/a
Evertjan wrote:
Dr J R Stockton wrote on 15 mrt 2007 in comp.lang.javascript:
>In comp.lang.javascript message
<45***********************@news.sunsite.
dk>, Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:00:02, FAQ server <ja********@dotinternet.be>
posted:
>>>FAQ Topic - How do I modify the current browser window?

To an incomer, that might be taken as referring to modifying the
displayed contents. Something like "... current browser window
properties?" might help. Any better offers?

Current browser window size and/or position on the screen.
The "on the screen" part of that seems redundant, as it is difficult to
see what else "position" may be considered relative to when talking of
windows.

However, the question is about more than the size and position of the
window. It is intended to express someone's desire to modify things such
as the display of menu/button bars, status bars and so on (the 'chrome').
The answer given is than that you cannot expected to be allowed to modify
these things in the normal security environment, but you may be allowed
to alter the window's size and position in some cases (increasingly few
these days, and with less purpose given tabbed browsers and MDI
interfaces on browsers).

Maybe a question along the lines of:-

"How do I modify the current browser window outside of the displayed
document?"

- would suggest the correct level of discrimination (especially given
that the answer is essentially that you cannot expect to be able to).

Richard.

Mar 18 '07 #15

P: n/a
"VK" <sc**********@yahoo.comwrote:
On Mar 18, 1:46 pm, Richard Cornford wrote:
>That post is not even "provisional". All it does is state that
its author is "proposing to add new FAQ entry", which may be
true but is very much internal to VK's mind. It does not state
that anything in the post is intended for wider consideration
as such an entry and it does not employ the formal mechanism
for indicating such (the post contains no <FA****RYmark-up).

I implore your pardon...

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ
robot collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."

Now:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
Post title:
"<FA****RY>I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the
screen. Why?</FA****RY>"
That is a Subject header not a title.
If FAQ editor wants to use my old proposal so to use XML-like
formal markup for FAQ proposals then I just welcome that. I
will gladly reformat the post in a form like:
<FA****RY>
<TITLE>
</TITLE>
<BODY>
</BODY>
</FA****RY>
That is you in a nutshell. Someone points out that you are doing
something wrong and you immediately want to jump to an irrational
extreme.
If some other formal markup is preferable then just point
me to an instruction page.
You have cited part of it above. It is a pity that you have not
understood the section that reads "The <FA****RYshould not be used in
posts except in conjunction with a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It
should also not be literally quoted in replies, instead it should be
partly obscured as, e.g. <FAQ**TRYor similar." and how following that
injunction may ease the editor's task.
So far as I remember it was insisted to keep a free-
form format and until stated otherwise this is still
in effect.

So far - and I have at least a dozen of rather recent cases -
"placing <FA****RYin your post" meant either "mark the post
subject" or "mark the relevant body part" or "mark both post
subject and the relevant body part".
Your interpretations are consistently erroneous. "In your post " does not
mean in the Subject header, as that it not in the post, and could not be
reconciled with Usenet's requirment not to assume the avalbility of a
Subject header to the reader. It is also irreconcilable with the request
to not use the literal form in follow-ups combined with the requiremnt to
not change the Subject header of a thread when the subject does not
chagne. Thus the <FA****RYmark-up should never appear in its original
form in a Subject header.
It also can be read as "place <FA****RYmarker anywhere
in your post" - though I do not recall such interpretation
would be ever used - yet it remains possible.
I havw no idea what you are whittering on about now.
If it is now insisted on only one strict interpretation of
"placing <FA****RYin your post" then again I welcome that
but I'm asking then to point to the - obviously newly
made - instruction page.
Bullshit. Nothing has changed. Sections of posts that include suggestions
for the attention of the FAQ editor are, as they always have been, marked
as directed in the FAQ, and such mark-up should not appear anywhere else.
If you have never understood this that is not surprising given your
record, it doesn't mean anyone else is having a problem with it.

If, instead of ignoring them, you would answer the questions you are
asked you might find progressing towards understanding much quicker.

Richard.

Mar 18 '07 #16

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 18, 3:31 pm, "Richard Cornford" <Rich...@litotes.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
"VK" <schools_r...@yahoo.comwrote:
On Mar 18, 1:46 pm, Richard Cornford wrote:
That post is not even "provisional". All it does is state that
its author is "proposing to add new FAQ entry", which may be
true but is very much internal to VK's mind. It does not state
that anything in the post is intended for wider consideration
as such an entry and it does not employ the formal mechanism
for indicating such (the post contains no <FA****RYmark-up).
I implore your pardon...
http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ
robot collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."
Now:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
Post title:
"<FA****RY>I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the
screen. Why?</FA****RY>"

That is a Subject header not a title.
Are we feeling especially freaky today?
There are at least three "Native English Speakers" around one baby
(FAQ text) with at least one - JRS - positioning himself nearly as God
and the last keeper of the True English (to my endless amusement btw).
Yet all together they produced the most obscure chunk of a technical
text one could imagine. Moreover and for even more fun they are now
insisting that there is some hidden clarity in this text - one just
need to read it "with a proper mindset".

Again quoting http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."

This sentence
1) doesn't specify in what part of the post the marker should be
placed: in the subject line or in the body or reduplicated in both
parts.
2) doesn't specify if the marker should be used as explicitly spelled
thus as a single marker; or does it presume using it tag-like so with
opening <F...tag and closing </F...tag with the relevant content
inside these tags.

No one - just like me - ever knew what a hey did the unknown dislexer
mean while writing it, so anyone was going by her own preferred
reading. By going from the most recent requests back to past:

<FA****RYcorrection
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....60c5921b248934
(single <F...mark in the subject line)

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....c1a4c1de15426f
<FA****RYtext </FA****RY>
(tag-like <F...usage in the message body)

<FA****RYcorrections
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3a0e91da811ce1
(single <F...mark in the subject line)

<FA****RY4.41 correction
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....dd93894394e6ec
(single <F...mark in the subject line)

$ <FA****RY>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....aa990244bf1226
(single <F...mark in the subject line)

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....e27bd0d8696c6a
<FA****RYtext <FA****RY>
(tag-like <F...usage in the message body)

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....5105828ebfcc5e
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the message body)

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....a3863e3c218aca
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the message body)

<FA****RY>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....223469afd5aadc
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the subject line and
single <F...mark in the message body)

I may keep going to the past months to get even more random usages. So
far no one of them was declined for "non-appropriate <FA****RY>
formatting". The first precedent over all these years was created only
now, for my particular FAQ proposal. As interesting as it is by
itself, I don't care to re-post with any reasonable formatting. But
first get my sh** on your bullsh**:

1) For all future potential posters it will be interesting to know if
and why among all possible interpretations of FAQ 5.1 only
<FA****RY>Subject</FA****RYis not acceptable (while
<FA****RY>Subject is fine). Moreover it is not acceptable by some
weather conditions I guess and not simply as such. See for instance
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....167d13ea90ce98
and the like

2) Even more useful would be to join all language capabilities of
involved people - however limited they are - and try to translate FAQ
5.1 from the current Pigeon English to something not to say perfect
but at least descent. That would eliminate the funny threads like this
one in the future.

Best regards.

Mar 18 '07 #17

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/18/2007 10:51 AM:
On Mar 18, 3:31 pm, "Richard Cornford" <Rich...@litotes.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>"VK" <schools_r...@yahoo.comwrote:
>>On Mar 18, 1:46 pm, Richard Cornford wrote:
That post is not even "provisional". All it does is state that
its author is "proposing to add new FAQ entry", which may be
true but is very much internal to VK's mind. It does not state
that anything in the post is intended for wider consideration
as such an entry and it does not employ the formal mechanism
>>>for indicating such (the post contains no <FA****RYmark-up).
I implore your pardon...
http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ
robot collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."
Now:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
Post title:
"<FA****RY>I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the
screen. Why?</FA****RY>"
That is a Subject header not a title.

Are we feeling especially freaky today?
There are at least three "Native English Speakers" around one baby
(FAQ text) with at least one - JRS - positioning himself nearly as God
and the last keeper of the True English (to my endless amusement btw).
Yet all together they produced the most obscure chunk of a technical
text one could imagine. Moreover and for even more fun they are now
insisting that there is some hidden clarity in this text - one just
need to read it "with a proper mindset".
Ahem! Who is the "they" you refer to? I know that even in your warped
deranged mind you wouldn't be referring to me as I have never said one
word about the way entries are requested since the long-winded thread
about it was ended. Personally, I don't give a flying mouse's rear end
if you put it in the Subject, Title, Header, Footer, Basement, on the
Moon, in a Signature, in a freaking Email or in the Outhouse. You need
to be careful about what you say who says what or you will find
yourself, once again, challenged to back up your claims of idiocy when
it comes to what I do or don't say/post.

P.S. JRS is too anally retentive to be amusing.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Answer:It destroys the order of the conversation
Question: Why?
Answer: Top-Posting.
Question: Whats the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Mar 19 '07 #18

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 19, 7:07 am, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
Who is the "they" you refer to?
They! They killed Kennedy, watching each your step, reading each your
post. :-))
I don't give a flying mouse's rear end
if you put it in the Subject, Title, Header, Footer, Basement, on the
Moon, in a Signature, in a freaking Email or in the Outhouse.
You maybe not. Neither the robot as long as it can find
toLowerCase('<FAQ***RY>') in the post. First-time potential posters
do: because with a uncertain ugly spelled procedure in 5.1 they never
can be sure if their proposal is formally correct or not. This thread
- and my overall experience - show that in case if there will be no
lack of critics in this direction.
You need
to be careful about what you say who says what or you will find
yourself, once again, challenged to back up your claims of idiocy when
it comes to what I do or don't say/post.
Your first and last comment to
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
so far is:
"It is so full of things that are incoherent that it's difficult to
know where to start."

I'm glad to see that the FAQ proposal formatting is not the thing you
wanted to start with. I may conduct it now from your response here.

Mar 19 '07 #19

P: n/a
VK
<FAQENTRYFAQ 5.1 rewording </FAQENTRY>

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
5.1 Why do some posts have <FAQENTRYin them ?

<current>
If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FAQENTRYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion. A Draft Proposal
for the FAQ is requested and appreciated.

The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar.
</current>
<proposed>
1) If a poster feels that the question she is answering should be
covered in the FAQ then she must to enclose the relevant part of the
post by <FAQENTRYtag. If the relevant part of the post follows
starting from some point and to the end of the post then it is also
acceptable to mark the beginning only of the relevant part by single
<FAQENTRYtag. The case of tag(s) is not important.
2) If a poster wants to start a new thread with her FAQ request then a
Draft Proposal for the FAQ should contain <FAQENTRYtag at the
beginning of the Subject line. If the body of the post contains any
other auxiliary text besides the Draft Proposal itself then the Draft
Proposal text should be marked same way as at point (1).

This procedure lets the FAQ robot collect the messages for easy review
and inclusion.
The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar.
</proposed>
--
<FAQENTRY>
<FAQENTRY>
<FAQENTRY
;-)

:-|

Mar 19 '07 #20

P: n/a

"VK" <sc**********@yahoo.comwrote:
<FAQENTRYFAQ 5.1 rewording </FAQENTRY>

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
5.1 Why do some posts have <FAQENTRYin them ?
<snip>
<proposed>
1) If a poster feels that the question she is answering should be
covered in the FAQ then she must to enclose
Did someone mention pigeon English recently?
the relevant part of the post by <FAQENTRYtag.
How do you "enclose" something in a single tag?
If the relevant part of the post follows
starting from some point and to the end of the post
Gibberish.
then it is also acceptable to mark the beginning only
of the relevant part by single
<FAQENTRYtag. The case of tag(s) is not important.
If the case is not important what is the point of saying so?
2) If a poster wants to start a new thread with her FAQ request
then a Draft Proposal for the FAQ should contain <FAQENTRYtag
at the beginning of the Subject line.
It is not acceptable Usenet practice to change the Subject header of a
thread when the subject has not changed, and generally unwelcome even if
the subject has changed. It is impossible to reconcile this fact with a
request that follow-ups do not repeat the <FA****RYtext literally as
such a follow-up would not be expected to change the subject of the
thread.
If the body of the post
"Body" would be an ambiguous term to apply to a Usenet post. They have
content preceded by Headers.
contains any other auxiliary text besides the Draft Proposal
itself then the Draft Proposal text should be marked same way
as at point (1).

This procedure lets the FAQ robot collect the messages for easy
review and inclusion.

The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar.
</proposed>
<snip>

Where it is not acceptable to change the Subject header of a thread when
the subject has not changed it is not possible to reconcile the preceding
demand with this one.

There is nothing wrong with the text as it is now.

Richard.

Mar 19 '07 #21

P: n/a
"VK" <sc**********@yahoo.comwrote:
On Mar 18, 3:31 pm, Richard Cornford wrote:
>"VK" <schools_r...@yahoo.comwrote:
<snip>
>>Post title:
"<FA****RY>I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the
screen. Why?</FA****RY>"

That is a Subject header not a title.

Are we feeling especially freaky today?
The notion of a hearer should not be alien to anyone working in web
development. You have headers and content, in HTTP and in news posts.
There are at least three "Native English Speakers" around
one baby (FAQ text) with at least one - JRS - positioning
himself nearly as God and the last keeper of the True English
(to my endless amusement btw).
Yes, we have all read your assertions that your English is faultless, and
your giving advice to others on the subject. But we have also observed
that a significant proportion of the 'sentences' you write are not. You
may be deluded enough to be amused by the notion that your English is
poor, but the bottom line is that it is very poor.
Yet all together they produced the most obscure chunk of a
technical text one could imagine.
A prefect example of what I am talking about.
Moreover and for even more fun they are now
insisting that there is some hidden clarity in this text
- one just need to read it "with a proper mindset".
And another.
Again quoting http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."

This sentence
1) doesn't specify in what part of the post the marker should be
placed: in the subject line
The Subject header is not "in your post" as it is a header for the post,
and no more in the post than the Message-ID, References, Content-Typ,
Date, Lines, User-Agent, Path or From headers. It really should not be
necessary to be pointing this out to anyone who uses Usenet.
or in the body or reduplicated in both
parts.
The implication of the following request that the <FA****RYshould not
be laterally repeated in follow-ups is irreconcilable with the notion of
putting it in the Subject header. Rational individuals will not employ an
interpretation when the consequences of that interpretation cannot be
achieved.
2) doesn't specify if the marker should be used as explicitly
spelled thus as a single marker; or does it presume using
it tag-like so with opening <F...tag and closing </F...>
tag with the relevant content inside these tags.
It is not necessary to specify something that is not important.
Reasonable people will manage to employ indicator sensibly (particularly
as they may choose not to get involved until they have seen some examples
of what others do).
No one - just like me - ever knew what a hey did the unknown dislexer
mean while writing it, so anyone was going by her own preferred
reading. By going from the most recent requests back to past:
How many examples of people foolishly putting the indicator in the
Subject header pre-date your fist example of that folly?

<snip>
I may keep going to the past months to get even more random usages.
So far no one of them was declined for "non-appropriate <FA****RY>
formatting".
But it has been pointed out to some that they should not put the
indicator in the Subject header.
The first precedent over all these years was created only
now, for my particular FAQ proposal.
It has never has been acceptable to change the Subject header, and if you
look at those posts you will so that they have not been changed, and so
every one violates the stated requirement not to repeat the indicator
literally in follow-ups. And the fault here likes exclusively with the
individual who made it impossible for the follow-ups to obscure the
indicator by erroneously putting it in the Subject header.
As interesting as it is by itself, I don't care to re-post
with any reasonable formatting. But first get my sh** on
your bullsh**:
You are degenerating to gibberish again.
1) For all future potential posters it will be interesting to
know if and why among all possible interpretations of FAQ 5.1
only <FA****RY>Subject</FA****RYis not acceptable

It is not acceptable because you cannot both not change the Subject
header in the follow-ups and change the Subject header in the follow-up
in order not the repeated the literal indicator.
(while <FA****RY>Subject is fine).
Who said that was fine, it still cannot be reconciled with not changing
the Subject header when the subject has not changed.
Moreover it is not acceptable by some
weather conditions I guess and not simply as such. See for instance
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....167d13ea90ce98
and the like

2) Even more useful would be to join all language capabilities
of involved people - however limited they are - and try to
translate FAQ 5.1 from the current Pigeon English to something
not to say perfect but at least descent. That would eliminate the
funny threads like this one in the future.
Your acquiring a facility for reasoned thought would do more to prevent
threads like this in the future, but that is too much to expect.

Richard.

Mar 19 '07 #22

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/19/2007 3:07 PM:
<FAQENTRYFAQ 5.1 rewording </FAQENTRY>

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
5.1 Why do some posts have <FAQENTRYin them ?

<current>
If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FAQENTRYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion. A Draft Proposal
for the FAQ is requested and appreciated.

The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar.
</current>
That is the current wording and will remain worded the way it is. I am
not going to change what that section says just to satisfy the pedantic
desires of one or two people. As I have already said, I don't give a
flying rat's rear end where you put it in the post as long as it is in
the post.

There is nothing wrong with the way it is currently done and it will
remain being done that way.

<snipped ramblings of VK>

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
FAQ Notes: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/faq_notes.html
ECMAScript Language Specification via FAQ2.6
Mar 19 '07 #23

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/19/2007 3:05 PM:
On Mar 19, 7:07 am, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
>Who is the "they" you refer to?

They! They killed Kennedy, watching each your step, reading each your
post. :-))
You are an idiot.
>I don't give a flying mouse's rear end
if you put it in the Subject, Title, Header, Footer, Basement, on the
Moon, in a Signature, in a freaking Email or in the Outhouse.

You maybe not. Neither the robot as long as it can find
toLowerCase('<FAQ***RY>') in the post.
Considering that the "robot" I use doesn't care about case, it is
irrelevant. Add it to the list of things I don't care about.
First-time potential posters do: because with a uncertain ugly spelled
procedure in 5.1 they never can be sure if their proposal is formally
correct or not.
And if they ever post one that is not "formally correct" (even though
that term with relation to an faqentry is a joke) you can be sure to
babble about it.
This thread - and my overall experience - show that in case if
there will be no lack of critics in this direction.
I didn't criticize you about anything to do with an faqentry other than
you attributing something to me that I have never even come close to
saying and I told you to back it up or shut up.
>You need
to be careful about what you say who says what or you will find
yourself, once again, challenged to back up your claims of idiocy when
it comes to what I do or don't say/post.

Your first and last comment to
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
so far is:
"It is so full of things that are incoherent that it's difficult to
know where to start."
And it had nothing to do with how you posted it. Can't you get that
through your head? I have said it before and I will say it again - maybe
you will comprehend it this time - that I don't care how you format the
request. I really don't as long as it contains the character sequence
(in any case you care for, even FaQeNtRy,) FAQENTRY.
I'm glad to see that the FAQ proposal formatting is not the thing you
wanted to start with. I may conduct it now from your response here.
Conduct what? 99% of what you say is incoherent and the other 1% is
plain silly.

Starters? The question in the thread you referred to is this:

I'm changing my page but nothing is changing on the screen. Why?

And it is *very* ambiguous. Hell, for all that matters, the answer to
the question could just as well be "You are viewing a cached page, try
refreshing it from the server to see the changes".

And from there, it just gets worse.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 19 '07 #24

P: n/a
VK
http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
5.1 Why do some posts have <FAQENTRYin them ?
<snip>
<proposed>
1) If a poster feels that the question she is answering should be
covered in the FAQ then she must to enclose

Did someone mention pigeon English recently?
Yes, it was me. You are making a very common mistake by placing the
equality sign between
"grammatically/stylistically perfect text" == "perfect text".
Such equation may be applicable for some poetry reading, but totally
wrong for any kind of formal specifications. In the latter case the
text may be - not to say have to - as ugly as sin: as long as it
allows only one algorithmic interpretation. And the opposite: the text
may have the beauty of Shakespeare with the Oxford's grammar, but as
soon as it allows any non-spelled algorithmic variations - as soon as
that its place becomes in the trash can. While saying "pigeon English"
I meant the application to a technical text.
enclose the relevant part of the post by <FAQ***RYtag.

How do you "enclose" something in a single tag?
Oh, the beloved hop goblin of "(X)HTML semantic" trolls.
I forgot that there is not "<sometag" as an entity. There are
"opening <sometag" and "closing </sometag". That forms "content
enclosed by opening <sometag and closing </sometag". This is
obviously not equal to HTML "some element" and neither of above is
equal to "some DOM node". With written English still missing
unambigous notation for all of these entities - and with posters
traditionally writing short in vainful hope to the common sense of
readers - with all that it leaves an endless source for the
"semantical" trolling. When I get really bored I'm going to ciwas or
ciwah to read some posts like
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....ca056d35628942
However sorry I feel for the next victim, I don't participate as it is
hopeless. Moreover I'm not some Usenet Robin Hood for doing that :-)

To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"

If the relevant part of the post follows
starting from some point and to the end of the post

Gibberish.
Please elaborate on that. The purpose of this clarification is to
explain that the posts like
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....5105828ebfcc5e
or
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....a3863e3c218aca
are still valid though unusual FAQ***RY request forms.
then it is also acceptable to mark the beginning only
of the relevant part by single <FAQENTRYtag.
see above

The case of tag(s) is not important.

If the case is not important what is the point of saying so?
Because it is not clear - and it was aked before - if <FAQ***RYand
<faq***ryare both acceptable. If they are both acceptable and even
<FaQ***rYgoes as well then _say_ it. Again you and Randy are
demonstating a mishmash of "what was in my head" and "what did I
write". If one had something in her head while writing a text but she
didn't actually write that: then she cannot expect that future readers
will still get the omitted parts from some "mental aura" surrounding
the text.

Specially for Randy who often accuses me to attribute to him something
he did not say:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....8821aea8385568
"I don't care how you format the request. I really don't as long as it
contains the character sequence (in any case you care for, even
FaQeN*Ry,) FAQ***RY."

Now looking at http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FAQ***RYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion. A Draft Proposal
for the FAQ is requested and appreciated.
The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar."

Given an internity to analize this text it is still impossible to
decide if <faq***ryin lower case - or case mishmash - would be
acceptable. That is a perfect sample of W3C approach: "whatever I was
thinking while writing it - it means that. If you are in doubts then
ask me what side thoughts did I have while writing it. I may answer in
a few months if you so stupid to be unable to read my mind remotely."

2) If a poster wants to start a new thread with her FAQ request
then a Draft Proposal for the FAQ should contain <FAQENTRYtag
at the beginning of the Subject line.

It is not acceptable Usenet practice to change the Subject header of a
thread when the subject has not changed, and generally unwelcome even if
the subject has changed.
>From what best practice this statement is coming from? Not from mine
I'm affraid and not from anyone I got aware of during the long time I
was using the Usenet. It is a shaky ground though because Usenet is
not an "in-company" correspondence to be regulated by some signed and
sealed instructions. It is traditions based, and as such the most
complete and unambiguous exposition of these traditions IMO is the one
made by Charles H. Lindsey, the latest I-D is of March 2005. It is not
a low to obey of course, but it is much more autoritative than
unsustained trolling of recent legions of "Usenet true traditions'
keepers".
http://www1.tools.ietf.org/html/draf...ection-3.2.1.1
<quote>
The Subject of the followup is, by default, taken from that of the
precursor, but users are able to override that default; indeed they
are to be encouraged to do so whenever appropriate in order to
avoid
long threads which have wandered far from the topic with which they
originated, but which still adhere to the original Subject.
</quote>

If the body of the post

"Body" would be an ambiguous term to apply to a Usenet post. They have
content preceded by Headers.
? The post - among other parts - has subject and body. Don't make
people laugh around by arguing on that.

FYI http://www1.tools.ietf.org/html/draf...#section-3.1.2
There is nothing wrong with the text as it is now.
As well as with W3C definition of whitespace, whitespace treatement,
namespaces and N other topics. This is why the current implementations
are looking just like "implementations" of the current FAQ instruction
linked below (see Addendum). W3C - because of these "nothing wrong
with the text" - is now sitting in the pile of sh** they were
carefully preparing 9 years in the row. clj FAQ is not some crucial
specification, but what's the point? "Write like a looser wherever
circumstances allow that?"

Addendum:

Why did W3C lost the 1999-2007 Cold Standards War
or How to avoid being a tech moron
Illustrated by comp.lang.javascript FAQ 5.1

http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FA****RYin your post lets the FAQ
robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion."

A few "implementation" samples back by dates w/o filtering:

<FA****RYcorrection
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....60c5921b248934
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....c1a4c1de15426f
<FA****RYtext </FA****RY>
(tag-like <F...usage in the message body)
<FA****RYcorrections
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3a0e91da811ce1
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
<FA****RY4.41 correction
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....dd93894394e6ec
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
$ <FA****RY>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....aa990244bf1226
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....e27bd0d8696c6a
<FA****RYtext <FA****RY>
(tag-like <F...usage in the message body)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....5105828ebfcc5e
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the message body)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....a3863e3c218aca
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the message body)
<FA****RY>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....223469afd5aadc
<FA****RYtext
(single <F...mark in the subject line and
single <F...mark in the message body)

Mar 20 '07 #25

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 18, 2:01 am, Dr J R Stockton <j...@merlyn.demon.co.ukwrote:
the Heading of a FAQ entry should indicate, as well as
possible within an appropriate length, what the entry is ABOUT; it
should be written so as to avoid misinterpretation.
Right, and it is already done:
"How do I modify the current browser window?"
browser window, word processor window =application window; as
opposed to document view or document content.

P.S. What is the difference between a fair contributor and a bored
troll?
A fair contributor sees an actual problem sustained by (mis)usage and
clarification requests samples. She brings this problem then to the
public attention.
A bored troll first constructs a problem under the aegis of "it never
happened but in the situation I just made up the problem I just made
up may happen". After that she requires to immediately resolve that
imaginary problem for that imaginary situation. As many extra
imaginary problems it will create - so the better for the thread
length so the better for the troll.
Mar 20 '07 #26

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/20/2007 1:19 PM:

<snip>
To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"
Are you really that anal?
>>If the relevant part of the post follows
starting from some point and to the end of the post
Gibberish.

Please elaborate on that. The purpose of this clarification is to
explain that the posts like
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....5105828ebfcc5e
or
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....a3863e3c218aca
are still valid though unusual FAQ***RY request forms.
"unusual request forms" in what way? They follow the guidelines in the FAQ.
>The case of tag(s) is not important.

If the case is not important what is the point of saying so?

Because it is not clear
The only person, AFAIK, that has ever had a problem with the case of it
was you.
- and it was aked before - if <FAQ***RYand <faq***ryare both acceptable.
And you got a very definitive answer to your question.
If they are both acceptable and even <FaQ***rYgoes as well then _say_ it.
Are you that anal VK? I would hope not.
Again you and Randy are demonstating a mishmash of "what was in my head"
and "what did I write".
Hold on there Tonto. I am not going to re-word and entry that has
*never* had a problem from anyone other than you simply to add some
pedantic garbage about whether case matters or not and whether a closing
tag is included or not. When I do FAQ Updates I simply search for the
letters FAQENTRY using Google Groups (where it is case insensitive as
far as I know) and it finds them for me. Its that simple. There is
absolutely no reason to change it other than to try to settle some
argument between you and Richard and I won't do it.

If one had something in her head while writing a text but she
didn't actually write that: then she cannot expect that future readers
will still get the omitted parts from some "mental aura" surrounding
the text.
Tell Goober I said "Duh, huh". If you don't listen to John Boy and Billy
that won't mean anything.....
Specially for Randy who often accuses me to attribute to him something
he did not say:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....8821aea8385568
"I don't care how you format the request. I really don't as long as it
contains the character sequence (in any case you care for, even
FaQeN*Ry,) FAQ***RY."

Now looking at http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html#FAQ5_1
"If a poster feels that the question they are answering should be
covered in the FAQ, placing <FAQ***RYin your post lets the FAQ robot
collect the messages for easy review and inclusion. A Draft Proposal
for the FAQ is requested and appreciated.
The <FAQENTRYshould not be used in posts except in conjunction with
a suggestion/proposal for the FAQ. It should also not be literally
quoted in replies, instead it should be partly obscured as, e.g.
<FAQ**TRYor similar."
Given an internity to analize this text it is still impossible to
decide if <faq***ryin lower case - or case mishmash - would be
acceptable.
Only in your mind VK, only in your mind.
That is a perfect sample of W3C approach: "whatever I was
thinking while writing it - it means that.
I won't even try to understand how you got from an FAQ Request to the W3C.
<FA****RYcorrection
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....60c5921b248934
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
And the only people it made any significant difference to was you and
Richard. Does that tell you anything?
>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....c1a4c1de15426f
<FA****RYtext </FA****RY>
(tag-like <F...usage in the message body)
<FA****RYcorrections
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3a0e91da811ce1
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
<FA****RY4.41 correction
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....dd93894394e6ec
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
Maybe you should email Gerard and educate him. Nobody else cares.
$ <FA****RY>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....aa990244bf1226
(single <F...mark in the subject line)
<twirling fingers>

You really need a new hobby. BTW, where is that rounding function? :-X

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 21 '07 #27

P: n/a
In comp.lang.javascript message <uK********************@giganews.com>,
Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:13:49, Randy Webb <Hi************@aol.composted:
Lines: 127
>VK said the following on 3/20/2007 1:19 PM:
>To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"

Are you really that anal?
...
The previous FAQ maintainer wasted everybody's time in foolish argument,
instead of incorporating useful suggestions into a published FAQ. Stop
heading in the same direction.
>You really need a new hobby. BTW, where is that rounding function? :-X
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-misc0.htm#CDCnow shows
conversion from an expression (using covert eval) to a Number and then
(in two Forms) either to 4 bytes or 4 words shown in binary respectively
representing the value as an IEEE Single or to an IEEE Double. Those
displays are editable and can be converted both back to Number (shown by
default toString) and on to *exact* representations of the sign,
exponent, mantissa, and complete value as decimal strings. AFAIK, it's
OK for all finite values up to or almost up to the limit of the type;
but it could do with more testing.

In Doubles :-
0.01 +0.01000000000000000020816681711721685132943093776 702880859375
0.06 +0.05999999999999999777955395074968691915273666381 8359375
0.06+0.01 +0.06999999999999999278355033993648248724639415740 966796875
0.07 +0.07000000000000000666133814775093924254179000854 4921875
Ruler ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

The resolution of a Double (Number) is about 1 in 9e15.

Seeing that might help VK understand the situation.

It's a good idea to read the newsgroup c.l.j and its FAQ. See below.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 IE 6
news:comp.lang.javascript FAQ <URL:http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html>.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htmjscr maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
Mar 21 '07 #28

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 21, 3:13 am, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
VK said the following on 3/20/2007 1:19 PM:

<snip>
To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"

Are you really that anal?
No, I'm trying to show what is an algorithm / specification and what
is garbage. I'm not expecting an immediate result though maybe I was
too rushing the events in the previous post. Array vs Object took
about 3 year, window vs Global about 2 years. So in one year you might
learn what is "anal retentive" clarification for clarification itself
- and what is a necessary editing of a badly written algorithm.
Everything takes time, sometimes more that one would like.
- and it was aked before - if <FAQ***RYand <faq***ryare both acceptable.

And you got a very definitive answer to your question.
It doesn't matter - see above. If your extra answer was needed to read
the FAQ 5.1 then automatically FAQ 5.1 is garbage as a technical text.
However simple this concept may be, it may take good time to be fully
realized. As I said I'm not pushing anymore the events quicker than
they can go. As a really small compromise you might repost in this
thread your statement of irrelevance of case and other attributes of
<FAQ***RY- only w/o flying mice, rear ends, anal problems and other
irrelevant though pictorial elements. This way it could be possible to
make an authoritative reference without scaring sh** out of people.
Again you and Randy are demonstating a mishmash of "what was in my head"
and "what did I write".

Hold on there Tonto. I am not going to re-word and entry that has
*never* had a problem from anyone other than you simply to add some
pedantic garbage about whether case matters or not and whether a closing
tag is included or not. When I do FAQ Updates I simply search for the
letters FAQENTRY using Google Groups
<snip>

That is the problem we are discussion. No one gives a "flying mouse
read end" of what are _you_ doing. The question is what _users_ are
instructed to do.
You really need a new hobby. BTW, where is that rounding function? :-X
The theory is almost there. As I said before the javascript rounding
question turned out to be a side outcome of my personal structural
linguistics researches - something I did not expect when I was
starting it. I guess the community may "starve" a bit more on the
default round() method, the sky will not fail on the earth because of
that.

If you have a spare time then
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....470812c5e4d3b5
is still waiting for your attention. This problem is _times_ much more
often and important than some 1.0000x rounding.
A rather extensive explanation of the screen update delay is already
given, but I left some more researches to do: like testing "soft
break" usability extends. It also may be useful to shorten the FAQ to
the minimum but to make an external link illustrating the UAs screen
update delay in all details. So there is plenty of important work for
a few days at the very least for yourself and the possible volunteers.

Mar 21 '07 #29

P: n/a
VK
On Mar 21, 3:45 pm, Dr J R Stockton <j...@merlyn.demon.co.ukwrote:
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-misc0.htm#CDCnow shows
conversion from an expression (using covert eval) to a Number and then
(in two Forms) either to 4 bytes or 4 words shown in binary respectively
representing the value as an IEEE Single or to an IEEE Double. Those
displays are editable and can be converted both back to Number (shown by
default toString) and on to *exact* representations of the sign,
exponent, mantissa, and complete value as decimal strings. AFAIK, it's
OK for all finite values up to or almost up to the limit of the type;
but it could do with more testing.

In Doubles :-
0.01 +0.01000000000000000020816681711721685132943093776 702880859375
0.06 +0.05999999999999999777955395074968691915273666381 8359375
0.06+0.01 +0.06999999999999999278355033993648248724639415740 966796875
0.07 +0.07000000000000000666133814775093924254179000854 4921875
Ruler ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

The resolution of a Double (Number) is about 1 in 9e15.

Seeing that might help VK understand the situation.
That's hardly. I'm not sure at all what this - sorry if sounds too
rough - a la Big Math toying may be good for: but itself and
especially for the precision questions.

Actually I never asked you what Dr. are you and if you are Dr. at all
- and it's not my damn business anyway while on the Usenet. But from
your web-site and some of your comments I may conclude that you are -
or pretending to be - in some higher math related science. In this
case you are always welcome aboard - the math nature badly tolerate
"closed" researches.
Well, my semantical symmetriades may stay with me until published :-)
if ever :-) but they are not in relevance whatsoever to any javascript
matters; all precision-related stuff is open right now.

To get you on the stream:

1) Problem One:
What real numbers can be handled exactly without symbolic
substitutions and within a finite algorithm? Obviously the one having
(0) in period. What reals are these? The formula is done but the
strong proof is still in process:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...0bf2131d0f0c97
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad11fea343cf3a

2) Problem Two:
A real with (0) in period could be considered as full set of decadic
rationals - bearing in mind that the relevant lemma for Problem One is
still under investigation. But a decadic rational with (0) in period
easily becomes an infinite binary sequence with a period other than
(0) so it can be stored exactly in decimal form but lead to precision
loss in binary form. Just for a sample: 0.1
Only decadic rationals having equivalent representation as dyadic
rationals retain (0) in period so can be stored exactly. The exact set
formula is already done:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...cbdee772dfb835

Here comes where you may help if you want to:

3) Problem Three:
The above two problems were resolved for an ideal Turing machine, so a
finite algorithm was the only requirement, storage limitations
disregarded. Obviously it is not true for IEEE-754 FP-DP where we have
54 bits (including the implicit one) for mantissa storage space. This
way for the set resulted from two "filters" above: for this set we
have to find an algorithm to check that:
Real N being transformed from decimal to binary form will result in
bit sequence no longer than 54 bit from the first bit set to 1 and to
the last bit set to 1 with border bits included. Exponent part value
is irrelevant.
Algorithms to transform decimals to binary are well known, so if you
like a "combo" of math and javascript programming then here is a good
field.

If you feel like more of usability and best choice studies then you
may jump onto the "contextual rounding" problem. That's a nasty one
without (?) obvious solutions. For explanations and real life samples
read:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....0907e3159cb1a6
http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3556d6f79562a4

P.S. I linked only relevant individual messages. Reading whole threads
may be useful as well but up to you.

P.P.S. All of above is a free choice proposal of course.

Mar 21 '07 #30

P: n/a
Dr J R Stockton said the following on 3/21/2007 8:45 AM:
In comp.lang.javascript message <uK********************@giganews.com>,
Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:13:49, Randy Webb <Hi************@aol.composted:
>Lines: 127
>VK said the following on 3/20/2007 1:19 PM:
>>To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"
Are you really that anal?
...

The previous FAQ maintainer wasted everybody's time in foolish argument,
instead of incorporating useful suggestions into a published FAQ. Stop
heading in the same direction.
The funny part of that is I waste more time arguing pedantic points
about the FAQ with you than I ever have with VK. Give that some thought!
Besides, what I do with my time is NOYB.
--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Mar 23 '07 #31

P: n/a
VK said the following on 3/21/2007 3:44 PM:
On Mar 21, 3:13 am, Randy Webb <HikksNotAtH...@aol.comwrote:
>VK said the following on 3/20/2007 1:19 PM:

<snip>
>>To cut the deal short:
"...enclose the relevant part of the post by opening <FAQ***RYand
closing </FAQ***RYtags"
Are you really that anal?

No, I'm trying to show what is an algorithm / specification and what
is garbage.
What is "garbage" is your belief that there is anything wrong with the
current system (which has worked quite well for 10 years or so now).

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/index.html
FAQ Notes: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/faq_notes.html
ECMAScript Language Specification via FAQ2.6
Mar 23 '07 #32

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