David Flanagan's 5th Edition Javascript

[firewood]

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
JavaScript.

My only objection is to his dedication:
"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo, the sentiment
would be worthy, but it gives such slight to those of us committed to
the war on terrorism, which threatens to destroy Western civilization,
that I can only suggest that Mr. Flanagan would have been better
served to dedicate his work to all who made his work possible - like
his family, publishers, and readers.

That said, I look forward to an excellent brush-up on Javascript,
Ajax, and all the new stuff he presents.

[Ed Jay]

firewood scribed:

>Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
JavaScript.

My only objection is to his dedication:
"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo

Do you think Ghandi's words were heavily tainted with political innuendo?

>, the sentiment
would be worthy, but it gives such slight to those of us committed to
the war on terrorism

Only in your eyes?

>, which threatens to destroy Western civilization,

I think Western civilization is doing a good enough job destroying itself.
It needs no help...like a false war against 'terrorism.'

>that I can only suggest that Mr. Flanagan would have been better
served to dedicate his work to all who made his work possible - like
his family, publishers, and readers.

That said, I look forward to an excellent brush-up on Javascript,
Ajax, and all the new stuff he presents.

Glad you liked the book. I ordered it last night. I'd have been upset to
see a bad review. :-)
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)

[John G Harris]

In article <5j********************************@4ax.com>, firewood
<fi*********@yahoo.comwrites

<snip>

>"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo,

Resisting violence covers a lot of ground : hadn't you thought of that?

the sentiment
would be worthy, but it gives such slight to those of us committed to
the war on terrorism,

Is your Congressman still resisting the new treaty that allows
terrorists to be extradited?

which threatens to destroy Western civilization,
that I can only suggest that Mr. Flanagan would have been better
served to dedicate his work to all who made his work possible - like
his family, publishers, and readers.

<snip>

The best dedication I've ever seen was "To my dog, Pym". His next book
was dedicated to all those who enquired about Pym.

John
--
John Harris

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <5j********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 17:48:57 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, firewood
<fi*********@yahoo.composted :

>Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
JavaScript.

Please post the formal details, resembling

David Flanagan, javascript: The Definitive Guide,
pub. O'Reilly & Associates Inc. (Sebastopol, CA, USA);
3rd Edition, 1998, ISBN 1-56592-392-8, 790 pages, $39.95.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/- FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

[petermichaux]

Dr John Stockton wrote:

JRS: In article <5j********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 17:48:57 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, firewood
<fi*********@yahoo.composted :

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
JavaScript.

Please post the formal details, resembling

David Flanagan, javascript: The Definitive Guide,
pub. O'Reilly & Associates Inc. (Sebastopol, CA, USA);
3rd Edition, 1998, ISBN 1-56592-392-8, 790 pages, $39.95.

David Flanagan, javascript: The Definitive Guide,
pub. O'Reilly & Associates Inc. (Sebastopol, CA, USA);
5th Edition, 2006, ISBN 0-596-10199-6, 994 pages, $49.99.
-Peter

[Ray]

firewood wrote:

My only objection is to his dedication:
"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo, the sentiment

You sure add a lot to Mr. Flanagan's short sentence! When I read that
sentence I thought of Gandhi, actually. If anything his sentiment
could've been directed to *the terrorrists*.

That said, I look forward to an excellent brush-up on Javascript,
Ajax, and all the new stuff he presents.

[Douglas Crockford]

firewood wrote:

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
JavaScript.

My only objection is to his dedication:
"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo, the sentiment
would be worthy, but it gives such slight to those of us committed to
the war on terrorism, which threatens to destroy Western civilization,
that I can only suggest that Mr. Flanagan would have been better
served to dedicate his work to all who made his work possible - like
his family, publishers, and readers.

I am struggling to figure out what sort of nonsense I can read into your
statement. Are you perhaps advocating doing violence to Mr. Flanagan?

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <7m********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 11:27:05 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Ed Jay
<ed***@aes-intl.composted :

>
Do you think Ghandi's words were heavily tainted with political innuendo?

I have no opinion - who was he and what did he say?

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ??*@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/- FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Check difficult spelling -- error is a public sign of carelessness.
Never fully trust an article from a poster who gives no full real name.

[Richard Cornford]

firewood wrote:

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's
"javascript: The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first
scan, to be superb. It will continue, I am sure, to be
the only CLJ-endorsed reference on JavaScript.

My only objection is to his dedication:
"This book is dedicated to all who teach peace and
resist violence."
Were it not so heavily tainted with political innuendo,
the sentiment would be worthy, but it gives such slight
to those of us committed to the war on terrorism,

What is going on in the minds of "those of us committed to the war on
terrorism" that sees the promotion of peace and non-violence as a
slight? What outcome is this "war on terrorism" supposed to have if it
is not peace with those who may otherwise choose terrorism and
non-violence on their part? Or is it that the intention is the genocidal
extermination of all those who would use violence to change the world
will render the outcome moot, but the means are then so unpalatable that
they must never be spoken of (and especially criticised) in public, even
by implication?

There is something seriously wrong with a philosophy when its adherents
are so paranoid about criticism that they see it in the most innocuous
of statements.

which threatens to destroy Western civilization,

The civilised part of western civilisation promotes democratic
government, institutionalised law and freedom of speech over the violent
imposition of the will, and peaceful co-existence (and trade) over war.
There may come a point where the baby is thrown out with the bath water.

that I can only suggest that Mr. Flanagan would have
been better served to dedicate his work to all who
made his work possible - like his family, publishers,
and readers.

<snip>

It may be that it is those teachers of peace and resisters of violence
that have made Mr. Flanagan's work possible. By facilitating an
environment where he may write his book on javascript without becoming
subject to some sort of Fatwah for a single phrase.

Richard.

[Ed Jay]

Dr John Stockton scribed:

>JRS: In article <7m********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 11:27:05 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Ed Jay
<ed***@aes-intl.composted :

>>
Do you think Ghandi's words were heavily tainted with political innuendo?

I have no opinion - who was he and what did he say?

Surely you jest. You don't know who Mahatma Gandhi was?
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)

[firewood]

I'd really rather focus on JavaScript, which is certainly the point of
David Flanagan's book, but the response to my post has been a bit too
postured and simplistic for me to allow it to pass without reply.

It takes an ostrich mentality not to understand that modern political
discourse is carried out on multiple levels of communication. Some
folks prefer the blunt, which can be refreshing; some cloak their
opinions in innuendo, which I find disingenuous. We all live in a
climate where we sometimes have to deduce the political positions of
others, not through frank and open discussion, but by the
interpretation of well-phrased clues, masquerading as simplistic, if
not childish, wisdom.

Of course we all admire peace-makers. Ghandi was a fine man (but not
a very good father, I might add). Taken literally and without the
lacings of modern political cues and associations, non-violence seems
to call for the best that human beings have to offer. We all love
peace, but I think that in time of war a call for peace, without the
contextual provisos of what kind of peace, is easily interpreted as
simple surrender.

My reaction to Mr. Flanagan's dedication is directed to the
implication that it carries, not to the literal - and simplistically
limited - words of which it composed. He discovers somewhere in our
world a group of peace-lovers who find favor in his eyes and on whom
he bestows the blessings of his dedication. I wonder (in my childish,
simplistic way) on which side of the political spectrum these peaceful
folks sit? And who is outside of that group? Could it be those of us
who support the war? Now why would I think that? Did he actually say
those words?

Has it come to the point where I must actually say that I hate war? Of
course I do, and so do all those who fight in them. But the rules of
international conduct are not kept in bounds by the constraints of a
well-behaved police force and a constitution created by men of the
Enlightenment, conditions with which we comfortably live here in the
USA and most of the Western world. It is a jungle of Nietzschian
ethics, with the will to power the only guide to right and wrong.

Where will the call to peace be heard, when we wake some morning to
learn that Manhattan or Chicago or LA - or perhaps all three - are in
ashes? The path to peace often leads through war. I wish peace
lovers could see that. I wish Mr. Flanagan had had the grace to
acknowledge it as well.

[cwdjrxyz]

pe**********@gmail.com wrote:

Dr John Stockton wrote:

JRS: In article <5j********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 17:48:57 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, firewood
<fi*********@yahoo.composted :

>Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
>The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb. It will
>continue, I am sure, to be the only CLJ-endorsed reference on
>JavaScript.

Please post the formal details, resembling

David Flanagan, javascript: The Definitive Guide,
pub. O'Reilly & Associates Inc. (Sebastopol, CA, USA);
3rd Edition, 1998, ISBN 1-56592-392-8, 790 pages, $39.95.

David Flanagan, javascript: The Definitive Guide,
pub. O'Reilly & Associates Inc. (Sebastopol, CA, USA);
5th Edition, 2006, ISBN 0-596-10199-6, 994 pages, $49.99.

In the US, Amazon.com is selling the new 5'th edition for US$ 32.99,
and shipping is free unless you want faster shipping. Also, if you want
more details to decide if you need to update from an older edition, see
Flanagan's blog at
http://www.davidflanagan.com/blog/2006_08.html#000110 .

[Jorge Gajon]

Hi everybody,

firewood wrote:

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb.

I purchased the 4th edition three months ago, I wasn't aware at the
time that a 5th edition was in the works.

My question is (for all of you), in your personal opinion, is it worth
to purchase the 5th edition if you already have the 4th edition? Is
there a good amount of new material?

I appreciate any opinions you might have.

Regards,
Jorge

[Richard Cornford]

Jorge Gajon wrote:

Hi everybody,

firewood wrote:

>Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's
"javascript: The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first
scan, to be superb.

I purchased the 4th edition three months ago, I wasn't aware
at the time that a 5th edition was in the works.

My question is (for all of you), in your personal opinion,
is it worth to purchase the 5th edition if you already have
the 4th edition?

That question may be problematic to answer, as it is unlikely that many
who have an understanding of javascript feel a need to be purchasing new
reference books on the subject. I certainly have not yet seen a copy of
the 5th edition and so can say nothing about how it compares with the
forth.

However, if you had a need for a reference book when you purchased the
forth edition I would be surprised if what you could learn from it was
not sufficient for your purposes for the foreseeable future. And once
you have digested its contents, and spent some time putting them into
action, you may be in a position to look at the 5th edition yourself and
judge whether its differences justified getting a copy.

Is there a good amount of new material?

The last language specification (ECMA 262, 3rd Ed.) was released at the
end of 1999 so the javascript language has not changed (except for the
XML extensions of ECMAScript (ECMA 357), which you will not be seeing in
even the next version of IE) (and even if the next ECMA 262 (4th)
version is released tomorrow it would be 2-3 years before it could be
seriously used on the internet, assuming its actual adoption). So
anything Edition 4 says about the language will still be as true today
as when it was written.

There are new proposals for Level 3 W3C DOM, but their actual
implementation is not yet widespread, and certainly does not include IE
browsers. So the DOM material will still be sufficient for practical
use, and the new features can be referenced through the Mozilla web site
and the W3C.

Script use has developed, with the more widespread understanding and use
of closures in actual scripts and an increasing (but maybe not always
advisable) use of XML HTTP request for background loading (under the
buzzword label AJAX).

It sounds like those may represent a significant part of the new
material in the 5th edition, but neither would be required topics for
the newcomer and considerable material on those subjects is available on
the Internet.

Richard.

[Tom Cole]

Jorge Gajon wrote:

Hi everybody,

firewood wrote:

Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb.

I purchased the 4th edition three months ago, I wasn't aware at the
time that a 5th edition was in the works.

My question is (for all of you), in your personal opinion, is it worth
to purchase the 5th edition if you already have the 4th edition? Is
there a good amount of new material?

It's not always a matter of new material, somtimes updated material is
worth much more...

But back to whether or not it's useful, why not go see Dave's Blog. He
spells it out for you:

http://www.davidflanagan.com/blog/2006_08.html

>
I appreciate any opinions you might have.

Regards,
Jorge

[Richard Cornford]

Tom Cole wrote:

Jorge Gajon wrote:

<snip>

>My question is (for all of you), in your personal
opinion, is it worth to purchase the 5th edition
if you already have the 4th edition? Is there a
good amount of new material?

It's not always a matter of new material, somtimes updated
material is worth much more...

And sometimes little, or no, more, and sometimes less.

But back to whether or not it's useful, why not go see Dave's
Blog. He spells it out for you:

Is the person who will be receiving the royalty payments from the book
the best person to be asking if you should be contributing to those
payments?

Richard.

[Tom Cole]

Richard Cornford wrote:

Tom Cole wrote:

Jorge Gajon wrote:

<snip>

My question is (for all of you), in your personal
opinion, is it worth to purchase the 5th edition
if you already have the 4th edition? Is there a
good amount of new material?

It's not always a matter of new material, somtimes updated
material is worth much more...

And sometimes little, or no, more, and sometimes less.

But back to whether or not it's useful, why not go see Dave's
Blog. He spells it out for you:

Is the person who will be receiving the royalty payments from the book
the best person to be asking if you should be contributing to those
payments?

No, but he's the best one to tell you what's different between versions
4 and 5, he did write it.

That's what he does had you followed the link I posted. He even states
that clearly you, the purchaser, will have to decide for yourself if
the additional material is worth the purchase.

>
Richard.

[firewood]

On 11 Sep 2006 16:06:17 -0700, "Jorge Gajon" <jo*********@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi everybody,

firewood wrote:

>Just got a copy of the 5th edition of David Flangan's "javascript:
The Definitive Guide". It looks, a first scan, to be superb.

I purchased the 4th edition three months ago, I wasn't aware at the
time that a 5th edition was in the works.

My question is (for all of you), in your personal opinion, is it worth
to purchase the 5th edition if you already have the 4th edition? Is
there a good amount of new material?

I read the 4th edition, bought the 5th and have started reading it
from the front cover. So far I've found much that is new, both in the
form of new concepts and as rewrites of the 4th edition material. For
instance, in the chapter on functions, there is a new section on
closures, which is helping me to understand the concept of lexical
scoping. It is a challenging, abstract concept, but Flanagan's
examples are very helpful in giving the abstract a concrete form.

I see ahead chapters on the XMLHttpRequest object, which I look
forward to studying. It is the basis for Ajax, and although there are
numerous books on that subject, I feel more confident that Flanagan's
coverage will be clear and to the point. Also I believe that the
author will offer what one needs to get a relevant start on a complex
subject.

There is material on XML and JavaScript, which was missing from the
4th edition; and, of course, XML is an especially important part of
any well-rounded education in software programming today.

The reference sections for DOM 0 and DOM 1&2 have been consolidated
into one section of the book. I have not yet dug very deeply into
that, but I can't help but wonder how such different, albeit
compatible, approaches to the DOM could be integrated without losing
some of the conceptual distinctions between the two. I liked the
separation in the 4th edition, just to keep my mind straight.

There is a graphics section that was not part of the 4th edition, with
chapters on <canvas>, flash and Java. Again, I have not studied that
either, but I am pleased to see that graphics has been included in the
book. More on that in a couple of weeks when I am at that chapter.

I have only one substantial criticism of the book. It is difficult to
learn any subject without problems to solve. I know it is a reference
book, but a lot of people will use this book to learn JavaScript from
scratch, and the author has written it with that premise in mind.
Although it is advanced in its ultimate scope, it starts with the
basics and proceeds - rather quickly - to some very subtle, abstract
concepts. It would be helpful to have exercises with solutions to
supplement that study.

That said, overall I am pleased that I purchased the 5th edition, and
I recommend it. I fully expect my insights concerning core
JavaScript, the DOM, HTTP scripting, XML and the integration of
JavaScript with all of them to be considerably strengthened, once I
have plowed through the rest of the book - and applied what I learn
with a lot of coding!!

Hope this helps.

[Jorge Gajon]

Hi Richard, Tom and firewood, thank you for your answers!

Richard Cornford wrote:

However, if you had a need for a reference book when you purchased the
forth edition I would be surprised if what you could learn from it was
not sufficient for your purposes for the foreseeable future.

You have a good point there. Certainly the 4th edition helped me a lot
to learn the language and it's concepts, but now I am learning new
things like tips, tricks and techniques from online resources like this
forum, wikis, blogs or articles.

anything Edition 4 says about the language will still be as true today
as when it was written.

....

browsers. So the DOM material will still be sufficient for practical
use, and the new features can be referenced through the Mozilla web site
and the W3C.

Thanks Richard!

Tom Cole wrote:

But back to whether or not it's useful, why not go see Dave's Blog. He
spells it out for you:

Thanks for the link Tom!

firewood wrote:

That said, overall I am pleased that I purchased the 5th edition, and
I recommend it.

Thanks firewood, I'll probably get it in the future. I live in Mexico
and is not exactly cheap to buy and ship a book from the US. You won't
find recent books on the local libraries and when they finally arrive
they are translated into Spanish but I really dislike reading a
translated technical book.
Regards,
Jorge

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <d1********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sun,
10 Sep 2006 08:50:59 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Ed Jay
<ed***@aes-intl.composted :

>Dr John Stockton scribed:

>>JRS: In article <7m********************************@4ax.com>, dated Sat,
9 Sep 2006 11:27:05 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Ed Jay
<ed***@aes-intl.composted :

>>>
Do you think Ghandi's words were heavily tainted with political innuendo?

I have no opinion - who was he and what did he say?

Surely you jest. You don't know who Mahatma Gandhi was?

Of course, though I never met him. I don't know who Ghandi was, though.

You failed to perceive the hint in the signature to that article. Never
respond without reading the whole body of an article and at least enough
of its header.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zipTimo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.