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scrollbars in IE disappearing and appearing again

I've come across a strange problem I can't seem to solve.

Every now and then the scrollbars in IE for http://www.websaid.be/
disappear. Most of the time the problem can be reproduced by following a
link on the page and then returning to the home page by clicking on the
arrows in the top left corner: suddenly the vertical scrollbar
disappears (although there is content outside the viewport) only to
reappear when hovering over the menu at the top.

When the menu (with the three red circles) is removed from the page, the
problem is gone, so it must have something to do with that menu, and in
particular the javascript. Does anyone have an idea what is going on
and/or have any hints on where to look to solve this problem? Thanks in
advance for any help!

Annelies
Feb 17 '06 #1
9 2107
VK

Annelies wrote:
I've come across a strange problem I can't seem to solve.

Every now and then the scrollbars in IE for http://www.websaid.be/
disappear. Most of the time the problem can be reproduced by following a
link on the page and then returning to the home page by clicking on the
arrows in the top left corner: suddenly the vertical scrollbar
disappears (although there is content outside the viewport) only to
reappear when hovering over the menu at the top.

When the menu (with the three red circles) is removed from the page, the
problem is gone, so it must have something to do with that menu, and in
particular the javascript. Does anyone have an idea what is going on
and/or have any hints on where to look to solve this problem? Thanks in
advance for any help!


Get all this stuff out (IE doesn't support XHTML):

// remove
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
// remove

Place instead:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/strict.dtd">

(if you are *not* planning to use frames and/or iframes)

If you need frames and/or iframes then place:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/frameset.dtd">

Nothing to do with JavaScript though.

Feb 17 '06 #2
VK wrote:
Annelies wrote:
I've come across a strange problem I can't seem to solve.

Every now and then the scrollbars in IE for http://www.websaid.be/
disappear. Most of the time the problem can be reproduced by following a
link on the page and then returning to the home page by clicking on the
arrows in the top left corner: suddenly the vertical scrollbar
disappears (although there is content outside the viewport) only to
reappear when hovering over the menu at the top.

When the menu (with the three red circles) is removed from the page, the
problem is gone, so it must have something to do with that menu, and in
particular the javascript. Does anyone have an idea what is going on
and/or have any hints on where to look to solve this problem? Thanks in
advance for any help!


Get all this stuff out (IE doesn't support XHTML):

// remove
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
// remove

Place instead:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/strict.dtd">

(if you are *not* planning to use frames and/or iframes)

If you need frames and/or iframes then place:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/frameset.dtd">

Nothing to do with JavaScript though.


Thanks for the help, but unfortunately that breaks the entire site
(layout in IE goes berzerk) since it has been written using XHTML. I
have not written the code myself, but have had to take over the existing
code so I'm afraid I'll have to stick to that. Since everything works
fine without the menu, I'm hoping there'd be a way to solve this without
having to rewrite all of the html....
Feb 18 '06 #3
VK wrote:
Annelies wrote:
I've come across a strange problem I can't seem to solve.

Every now and then the scrollbars in IE for http://www.websaid.be/
disappear. Most of the time the problem can be reproduced by following a
link on the page and then returning to the home page by clicking on the
arrows in the top left corner: suddenly the vertical scrollbar
disappears (although there is content outside the viewport) only to
reappear when hovering over the menu at the top.

When the menu (with the three red circles) is removed from the page, the
problem is gone, so it must have something to do with that menu, and in
particular the javascript. Does anyone have an idea what is going on
and/or have any hints on where to look to solve this problem? Thanks in
advance for any help!


Get all this stuff out (IE doesn't support XHTML):

// remove
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
// remove

Place instead:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/strict.dtd">

(if you are *not* planning to use frames and/or iframes)

If you need frames and/or iframes then place:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/frameset.dtd">

Nothing to do with JavaScript though.


Thanks for the help, but unfortunately that breaks the entire site
(layout in IE goes berzerk) since it has been written using XHTML. I
have not written the code myself, but have had to take over the existing
code so I'm afraid I'll have to stick to that. Since everything works
fine without the menu, I'm hoping there'd be a way to solve this without
having to rewrite all of the html....
Feb 18 '06 #4
VK

Annelies wrote:
Thanks for the help, but unfortunately that breaks the entire site
(layout in IE goes berzerk) since it has been written using XHTML. I
have not written the code myself, but have had to take over the existing
code so I'm afraid I'll have to stick to that. Since everything works
fine without the menu, I'm hoping there'd be a way to solve this without
having to rewrite all of the html....


Unfortunately there is no such way. IE simply doesn't support XHTML and
it doesn't plan to do so, plain all of it (btw IE 6.0 under Win98 SE
doesn't show scrollbars on initial load neither). So you have three
options:

1. Accept that at the very least 60% of your visitors will get random /
broken site layout and behavior.

2. Convert the entire site to HTML Strict / Frameset and revalidate it.

3. If you want to keep the original concept of "modern and as strict as
possible" then convert the site into conventional XML + XSLT structure.

The use of XHTML solution was an error to fix. Try to explain it to the
customer to get additional funding to redo it:- or go by the option 1.

Feb 18 '06 #5
VK wrote:
Unfortunately there is no such way. IE simply doesn't support XHTML and
it doesn't plan to do so, plain all of it (btw IE 6.0 under Win98 SE
doesn't show scrollbars on initial load neither). So you have three
options:

1. Accept that at the very least 60% of your visitors will get random /
broken site layout and behavior.

2. Convert the entire site to HTML Strict / Frameset and revalidate it.

3. If you want to keep the original concept of "modern and as strict as
possible" then convert the site into conventional XML + XSLT structure.

The use of XHTML solution was an error to fix. Try to explain it to the
customer to get additional funding to redo it:- or go by the option 1.

I'll have no choice then but to explain my customer that the original
code has been badly written so they'll have to stick with it (and maybe
remove/replace the dropdown menu at the top to stop the scrollbars from
disappearing) or have to get the html rewritten.

Either way, thanks for the clear explanation!

Anne
Feb 18 '06 #6
Annelies wrote:
VK wrote:
Unfortunately there is no such way. IE simply doesn't
support XHTML and it doesn't plan to do so, plain all
of it (btw IE 6.0 under Win98 SE doesn't show scrollbars
on initial load neither). So you have three options:

1. Accept that at the very least 60% of your visitors
will get random / broken site layout and behavior.

2. Convert the entire site to HTML Strict / Frameset
and revalidate it.

3. If you want to keep the original concept of "modern
and as strict as possible" then convert the site into
conventional XML + XSLT structure.

The use of XHTML solution was an error to fix. Try to
explain it to the customer to get additional funding to
redo it:- or go by the option 1.


I'll have no choice then but to explain my customer that
the original code has been badly written so they'll have
to stick with it (and maybe remove/replace the dropdown
menu at the top to stop the scrollbars from disappearing)
or have to get the html rewritten.

Either way, thanks for the clear explanation!


Clarity and explanation are things that VK does not provide. Granted
VK's posts in this thread are among his more lucid so maybe they could
be considered clear. They don't explain anything. You have an
intermittent problem and IE's lack of support for XHTML is a constant.
Constant conditions do not tend to have intermittent manifestations.
IE's lack of support for XHTML is not altered by navigating and then
clicking the back button.

Something else is responsible for the manifestations you observe, but
you appear to have removed this drop-down menu so the issue is beyond
resolution. However I also observe that declaration in layout.css:-

| html, body {
| background : #EEEEEE url('background.gif') repeat-y top center;
| font : 0.8em Verdana,sans-serif;
| padding : 0px;
| margin : 0px;
| height : 100%;
| text-align : center;
| behavior:url("../lib/csshover.htc");
| }

- sets the height of both the HTML and BODY elements to 100% and then
the major containing DIVs have their height set to 100%. It just takes
one assignment of, or implied use of overflow:hidden; on any of those
elements to render the contents un-scrollable.

But the biggest direct suspect for your problem is the csshover.htc,
which is badly written and very likely to produce seemingly chaotic
interactions between the document and any style sheets it uses. As it
assigns mouseover and mouseout listeners to lots of elements in the DOM,
determined by a regular expression-based examination of all of the style
sheets, and those event handlers apply and remove class names, unless
well understood its actions are likely to be obscure and unexpected.

Particularly, its behaviour may be significantly altered by the initial
location of the mouse, such that if a page loads with the mouse over the
document (as would normally be the case following hypertext navigation)
its outcome may significantly differ from the outcome of loading a page
with the mouse off the document (as would normally be the case when
using the back button.

The style-sheets themselves don't appear to do anything that justifies
the existence of the csshover.htc so its use in the first place is
questionable.

Richard.


Feb 18 '06 #7
Annelies wrote:
VK wrote:
Unfortunately there is no such way. IE simply doesn't
support XHTML and it doesn't plan to do so, plain all
of it (btw IE 6.0 under Win98 SE doesn't show scrollbars
on initial load neither). So you have three options:

1. Accept that at the very least 60% of your visitors
will get random / broken site layout and behavior.

2. Convert the entire site to HTML Strict / Frameset
and revalidate it.

3. If you want to keep the original concept of "modern
and as strict as possible" then convert the site into
conventional XML + XSLT structure.

The use of XHTML solution was an error to fix. Try to
explain it to the customer to get additional funding to
redo it:- or go by the option 1.


I'll have no choice then but to explain my customer that
the original code has been badly written so they'll have
to stick with it (and maybe remove/replace the dropdown
menu at the top to stop the scrollbars from disappearing)
or have to get the html rewritten.

Either way, thanks for the clear explanation!


Clarity and explanation are things that VK does not provide. Granted
VK's posts in this thread are among his more lucid so maybe they could
be considered clear. They don't explain anything. You have an
intermittent problem and IE's lack of support for XHTML is a constant.
Constant conditions do not tend to have intermittent manifestations.
IE's lack of support for XHTML is not altered by navigating and then
clicking the back button.

Something else is responsible for the manifestations you observe, but
you appear to have removed this drop-down menu so the issue is beyond
resolution. However I also observe that declaration in layout.css:-

| html, body {
| background : #EEEEEE url('background.gif') repeat-y top center;
| font : 0.8em Verdana,sans-serif;
| padding : 0px;
| margin : 0px;
| height : 100%;
| text-align : center;
| behavior:url("../lib/csshover.htc");
| }

- sets the height of both the HTML and BODY elements to 100% and then
the major containing DIVs have their height set to 100%. It just takes
one assignment of, or implied use of overflow:hidden; on any of those
elements to render the contents un-scrollable.

But the biggest direct suspect for your problem is the csshover.htc,
which is badly written and very likely to produce seemingly chaotic
interactions between the document and any style sheets it uses. As it
assigns mouseover and mouseout listeners to lots of elements in the DOM,
determined by a regular expression-based examination of all of the style
sheets, and those event handlers apply and remove class names, unless
well understood its actions are likely to be obscure and unexpected.

Particularly, its behaviour may be significantly altered by the initial
location of the mouse, such that if a page loads with the mouse over the
document (as would normally be the case following hypertext navigation)
its outcome may significantly differ from the outcome of loading a page
with the mouse off the document (as would normally be the case when
using the back button.

The style-sheets themselves don't appear to do anything that justifies
the existence of the csshover.htc so its use in the first place is
questionable.

Richard.

Feb 18 '06 #8
VK

Richard Cornford wrote:
You have an intermittent problem and IE's lack of support for XHTML is a constant.


Which again means at the very least 60% of customers having a
randomized layout/behavior of the proposed site. One may fix it for a
particular situation (menu), but it will explode in some other the
least expected place.

As you may notice I do not state true or false on the situation. One
may consider 60% of current Web users to be servants of the dark side -
which is just OK by me but is very difficult to accept as business
model to develop to ;-)

Feb 18 '06 #9
VK wrote:
Richard Cornford wrote:
You have an intermittent problem and IE's lack of support
for XHTML is a constant.
Which again means at the very least 60% of customers
having a randomized layout/behavior of the proposed site.


As IE's response to being presided with genuine XHTML is to offer the
user the opportunity to download it and save it to disk it is obvious
that for the page to be displayed at all in IE the mark-up must be being
interpreted as tag soup HTML.
One may fix it for a particular situation (menu), but it
will explode in some other the least expected place.
If the real cause of the problem is identifier and cured it will no
longer be a source of problems.
As you may notice I do not state true or false on the
situation.
And nobody should take you seriously if you did. What you did do is
present additional evidence for you total lack of analytical skills and
comprehension of logic.
One may consider 60% of current Web users to be servants
of the dark side - which is just OK by me but is very
difficult to accept as business model to develop to ;-)


Talk of a "business model" from someone with your limited skills and
rationality deserves no more than derision. In any real business context
you would be an expensive liability.

Richard.
Feb 18 '06 #10

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