I hate javascript :-(

[Fabian]

Well, what can I say...I really hate Javascript.

I am not programming as profession but I sometimes work with PHP with
MySQL, ASP with Ms Access/SQL Server. I have done something in VB and
when I was jounger I worked with C.

But what happens with Javascript, it happens with no other language.

I work with WinXP SP2 & IIS5, now. But also with Win2k and win98, as
fas as I remember, it was the same. I always keep my PC updated with
Microsoft updates.

If I need to work with Javascript (I try to avoid it, but when it is
necessary...), I normally copy some files from the Internet for not
having to reinvent the wheel myself. Take this script, for example, a
typical form verifier:
http://willmaster.com/possibilities/...edFieldsCheck/

but could also be another script, it makes no difference for what
happens.

I try it online and it works, I download the file to my hard disk. Ok,
it works. I copy the script to my file and it does NOT work at all. Ok,
I might have made a mistake...no way to understand what....
I do not attach here my file because my file is not the problem.

I run again the file downloaded from the internet and...it does not
work any longer !!!! It gives an error message...why if it was working
before and I have not edited it?!?
The error message is not important: it is one of those IE's yellow
triangle alert that refer to unexisting row and column. And you never
understand what's about.

I reboot the PC and same story. The original file downloaded works, my
files does not work (wihout any error message in my case) and the
orginal downloaded file does not work any longer after that!!!!

What the hell happens with javascript? Does it hangs the IIS service?
Does the function get stuck in the cache?

How can I avoid this to happen. How can I debug my scripts as I do for
all the others scrips/languages: without rebooting at the first error
message?

It's really disappointing: yesterday I managed to set up a webform +
page results in ASP + MS Access in a few hours and today I am stuck all
day with a stupid form verifier in Javascript.

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions.

Fabian

[bmgz]

Fabian wrote:

A long sob story

Initially It really is a bugga to get ones head around the whole DOM thing.
I still hate JavaScript (as I am still learning) but it's just too
useful to disregard.

[Lee]

Fabian said:

What the hell happens with javascript? Does it hangs the IIS service?
Does the function get stuck in the cache?

How can I avoid this to happen. How can I debug my scripts as I do for
all the others scrips/languages: without rebooting at the first error
message?

Probably the biggest difference between Javascript and other languages
is that most of the examples of Javascript code you're going to find
are bad to begin with and require some degree of customization to make
them work with your HTML.

If you're not willing to understand the language, don't use it, or at
least don't complain when you can't get crap you downloaded to work.

[Danny]

Well, for one thing, you ARE copying/pasting, so, is not that the code
doesn't work, it works, it just that you didn't write it, you're not the
author and on that, we cannot query you on anything on the code issues or
what it's there to do, now, we, for any querying or addressing on it need
the author of it, no the fella doing the copy/pasting, Javascript is Cish,
so, if you do in fact know C, shouldn't be an issue, PHP is a bit Perlish
and so is Javascript, so, if you do in fact know PHP that well, you can
tell pretty much what js is doing.

I've seen those copy/pasted deals, usually is, the fella copy/paste a
few <script> blocks in a page, and each block has their own locals vars
per function and/or their own globals, all locals fall within the
container scope, usually a function, but depending on the runtime it can
collide with another variable on another function with the same name or
branching or addressing the same object over the same runtime over a
recursion or some event listener, but what I've seen often is, global
naming issues, each <script> block define some globals and all globals
fall withing the SAME scope, so, one block defined global, maybe redefined
or reassigned on another. Then again, you're not the author of it. You'd
get the same in any language if you plaster around without auditing from a
file to another.
Danny
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:14:21 -0700, Fabian <ne******@hotmail.com> wrote:

Well, what can I say...I really hate Javascript.

I am not programming as profession but I sometimes work with PHP with
MySQL, ASP with Ms Access/SQL Server. I have done something in VB and
when I was jounger I worked with C.

But what happens with Javascript, it happens with no other language.

I work with WinXP SP2 & IIS5, now. But also with Win2k and win98, as
fas as I remember, it was the same. I always keep my PC updated with
Microsoft updates.

If I need to work with Javascript (I try to avoid it, but when it is
necessary...), I normally copy some files from the Internet for not
having to reinvent the wheel myself. Take this script, for example, a
typical form verifier:
http://willmaster.com/possibilities/...edFieldsCheck/

but could also be another script, it makes no difference for what
happens.

I try it online and it works, I download the file to my hard disk. Ok,
it works. I copy the script to my file and it does NOT work at all. Ok,
I might have made a mistake...no way to understand what....
I do not attach here my file because my file is not the problem.

I run again the file downloaded from the internet and...it does not
work any longer !!!! It gives an error message...why if it was working
before and I have not edited it?!?
The error message is not important: it is one of those IE's yellow
triangle alert that refer to unexisting row and column. And you never
understand what's about.

I reboot the PC and same story. The original file downloaded works, my
files does not work (wihout any error message in my case) and the
orginal downloaded file does not work any longer after that!!!!

What the hell happens with javascript? Does it hangs the IIS service?
Does the function get stuck in the cache?

How can I avoid this to happen. How can I debug my scripts as I do for
all the others scrips/languages: without rebooting at the first error
message?

It's really disappointing: yesterday I managed to set up a webform +
page results in ASP + MS Access in a few hours and today I am stuck all
day with a stupid form verifier in Javascript.

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions.

Fabian

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Fabian]

If you're not willing to understand the language, don't use it, or at
least don't complain when you can't get crap you downloaded to work.

Maybe I have not made myself correctly understood.

In my opinion, it's not a question of language or od coding, it's a
question of operating system or IIS or Javascript service or IE that
'hangs up' or something because the "crap" as you call it works but
after a certain event for wich I need to reboot.

Did I make myself understood? Any idea?

[Fabian]

Danny wrote:

Well, for one thing, you ARE copying/pasting, so, is not that the code
doesn't work, it works, it just that you didn't write it, you're not the

Definitely I must have written something wrong in my original message
because I have not made myself understood at all.

The code I downloaded *****works****.

Then I mess up with my file and here it can be that I make a mess in
cutting and pasting. let's pretend that I do a complete mess.

Then I go back my originally downloaded file and this second time it
does not work any longer !!! I need to reboot my PC to see it working
again! Tell me how can 1 file influences another file for ever..

I suspect that there are bugs in the operating system/IIS5 service, IE
I do not know. I wondered if you had any idea and if you had ever noted
this yourself.

I have always noted it...with javascript...that I need to reboot to
have something working again.

[Fabian]

bmgz wrote:

Fabian wrote:

A long sob story

Initially It really is a bugga to get ones head around the whole DOM thing.
I still hate JavaScript (as I am still learning) but it's just too
useful to disregard.

I didn't get your point.

[Hal Rosser]

"Fabian" <ne******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

bmgz wrote:

Fabian wrote:

A long sob story

Initially It really is a bugga to get ones head around the whole DOM thing. I still hate JavaScript (as I am still learning) but it's just too
useful to disregard.

I didn't get your point.

I think his Point is something on the order of:
JavaScript may not be easy, but it is too useful to just not try.

[Lee]

Fabian said:

If you're not willing to understand the language, don't use it, or at
least don't complain when you can't get crap you downloaded to work.

Maybe I have not made myself correctly understood.

In my opinion, it's not a question of language or od coding, it's a
question of operating system or IIS or Javascript service or IE that
'hangs up' or something because the "crap" as you call it works but
after a certain event for wich I need to reboot.

Did I make myself understood? Any idea?

It sounds like there's something wrong with your debugging procedure.
You haven't told us if running the downloaded code twice fails on
the second try. You haven't told us if it works in another browser
other than IE. I find Internet Explorer to be a lousy browser,
particularly for debugging code. Try Firefox.

[Fabian]

I think his Point is something on the order of:
JavaScript may not be easy, but it is too useful to just not try.

You mean "it is not useful to just not try" or is it an expression I do
not know?

Your three messages made me understand I really did not let my message
through.

I try once more:
The script I downloaded ***works***. It's not a problem of coding. No
javascript programming issue. Nada javascript.

However, whenever I use some buggy javascript (buggy? I am not sure.
Maybe, but who knows it?), I need to reboot my PC to make all
Javascripts work again.
Because ALL javascrips files stop working. Also the ones that - before
running the buggy script - were working.

So my questions are:
1) What the hell happen with Js? (but it is less important)
2) How can I avoid this?
3) How can I debug properly Javascript as I can do with other
languages I mentioned.

Cheers,
Fabian

[Fabian]

> It sounds like there's something wrong with your debugging procedure.

You haven't told us if running the downloaded code twice fails on
the second try.
Thanks Lee. Luckily, you got my point now. :-)

Yes it works many times. It works until I run a "buggy"(?) script.

You haven't told us if it works in another browser other than IE.
I will try it: good idea.

I find Internet Explorer to be a lousy browser, particularly for debugging code. Try Firefox.

And Opera?

Thanks for the suggestion. Will let you know the outcome.

Cheers,
Fabian

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

"Fabian" <ne******@hotmail.com> writes:

Definitely I must have written something wrong in my original message
because I have not made myself understood at all.
Indeed, you did not provide the means necessary for us to help you
with solving the problem. It is possible that someone has had the same
problem, and is able to recognize it from your description, but more
likely, we need to do some probing of our own to identify the problem.

To do that, we need to be able to do the three R's: Reproduce,
recognize, and repair the problem.

To reproduce the problem, we need the actual code that fails, as well
as the procedure to make it fail. If the page that fails is large, cut
it down to a small, self-contained example that still exhibits the
problem. The procedure includes the operating system and browser (or
wherever the code is run) that is used.

To recognize the problem, we need to know the problematic code
diverges from expected behavior for you. Typical examples of
not providing this is something like "it doesn't work".

To repair the problem, we need to know what the expected behavior
is. And no, the code is not obvious. :)
You provided a good description of the failure, and an acceptable
description of the expected behavior, but failed to give any
clue to what code caused the problem. You might think it doesn't
matter, and while you might be right, there is no way to be sure
(after all, you can't say what the problem is, so how can you
say what it isn't :).

The problem sounds like a bug in .. IIS5 (which is where to code is
run, right?). However, without being able to reproduce it, there is no
way to be sure. (While I don't have IIS5, and wouldn't be able to
reproduce it anyway, I'm sure there are some that could).
I have always noted it...with javascript...that I need to reboot to
have something working again.

You should know that your subject line is somewhat provocative.
Javascript is many things, and it sounds like you have a problem with
only one implementation running in one environment. It's most likely
a techical problem, not a problem with the language as such.

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[Kevin]

> The code I downloaded *****works****.

Then I mess up with my file and here it can be that I make a
mess in cutting and pasting. let's pretend that I do a complete
mess.
Then I go back my originally downloaded file and this second
time it does not work any longer !!! I need to reboot my PC to
see it working again! Tell me how can 1 file influences another
file for ever..

If you are copying the originally downloaded file on top of the
modified file ... that is, with the same name... then you're probably
seeing the modified file still in the browser cache.

Try the IE menu Tools - Internet Options - Delete Files, to remove your
modified version from cache.

Kevin

[Fabian]

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:

You provided a good description of the failure, and an acceptable
description of the expected behavior, but failed to give any
clue to what code caused the problem. You might think it doesn't
matter, and while you might be right, there is no way to be sure
(after all, you can't say what the problem is, so how can you
say what it isn't :).
Well If I execute a code many times and it works, then I execute it
after having launched another certain software and it does not work any
longer until I reboot my PC...what would you have thought? :-)

The problem sounds like a bug in .. IIS5 (which is where to code is
run, right?). However, without being able to reproduce it, there is no
way to be sure. (While I don't have IIS5, and wouldn't be able to
reproduce it anyway, I'm sure there are some that could).
Ok, but I didn't dare 1) to include here two HTML files (1 with js
working and one that causes the IIS5 bug (?)); 2) to provide a step by
step procedure for reproducing the problem...and - by the moment it
must be a sort of environmental problem - who knows how many
situations/cases there could be that cause it or not...I thought to be
too demanding.
You should know that your subject line is somewhat provocative.
Javascript is many things, and it sounds like you have a problem with
only one implementation running in one environment. It's most likely
a techical problem, not a problem with the language as such.

Exactly. My mistake was also that, by the moment I noted it many times,
I thought it was quite known among javascript experts. Apparently, I
use a "not typical" environment.

Thanks for the tips.
Fabian

[Fabian]

Kevin wrote:

If you are copying the originally downloaded file on top of the
modified file ... that is, with the same name... then you're probably
seeing the modified file still in the browser cache.
My modified file has a different name.

Try the IE menu Tools - Internet Options - Delete Files, to remove your
modified version from cache.

Thanks. Already tried, no luck.
Fabian

[Jeff]

Use the MS Script Editor included free with MS Office 2002 and above,
for debugging Internet Explorer (IE).

This subject is of great interest to many JS developers, as there is no
obvious, low cost way to do sophisticated debugging in
IE6 other than to use the debugger described below, which is horribly
documented otherwise. I feel debugging is an important aspect of
projecting the useability of the language and needs to be made more
clear for new users.
Jeff Papineau
yo**@mandala.com
<FAQENTRY>

This is a page that describes how to install and use the MS Script
Editor to debug Javascript in Internet Explorer ( IE ). It has a
powerful debugger built into it that works really well for developers
supporting IE5+. This debugger/editor included with most versions of
Microsoft Office.

http://www.mandala.com/javascript/debug_javascript.html

..NET programmers may have better tools (VStudio) but this comes in
really handy for anyone developing with JSP and PHP and other dynamic
scripting languages which embed javascript, as well as any HTML page
using Javascript in Internet Explorer that needs a (almost) free
debugging environment.

</FAQENTRY>

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

"Jeff" <su******@gmail.com> writes:

Use the MS Script Editor included free with MS Office 2002 and above,
for debugging Internet Explorer (IE).
Which doesn't help those of us without Office :)
This subject is of great interest to many JS developers, as there is no
obvious, low cost way to do sophisticated debugging in
IE6 other than to use the debugger described below, which is horribly
documented otherwise. I feel debugging is an important aspect of
projecting the useability of the language and needs to be made more
clear for new users.

While I can see your point, you did NOT need to post nine identical
messages saying it. While still just below half way to the Breidbart
index of spam, it's still not acceptable!

(It would be fair to point out your relation to the page you refer to
.... i.e., you wrote it)

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[news.comcast.net]

APOLOGIES!

Google changed their interface, and I thought I was mailing individuals, not
the group...

Jeff-

"Lasse Reichstein Nielsen" <lr*@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:u0**********@hotpop.com...

"Jeff" <su******@gmail.com> writes:

Use the MS Script Editor included free with MS Office 2002 and above,
for debugging Internet Explorer (IE).

Which doesn't help those of us without Office :)

This subject is of great interest to many JS developers, as there is no
obvious, low cost way to do sophisticated debugging in
IE6 other than to use the debugger described below, which is horribly
documented otherwise. I feel debugging is an important aspect of
projecting the useability of the language and needs to be made more
clear for new users.

While I can see your point, you did NOT need to post nine identical
messages saying it. While still just below half way to the Breidbart
index of spam, it's still not acceptable!

(It would be fair to point out your relation to the page you refer to
... i.e., you wrote it)

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors:
<URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

"news.comcast.net" <yo******@yahoo.com> writes:

APOLOGIES!

Google changed their interface, and I thought I was mailing individuals, not
the group...

Accepted.
Now don't top post :)

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:

"news.comcast.net" <yo******@yahoo.com> writes:

APOLOGIES!

Google changed their interface, and I thought I was mailing individuals,
not the group...

Accepted.
Now don't top post :)

If you search postings within the last months in this group, you find
postings of this "individual" almost everywhere, on every possible
occasion, whether debugging would have been helpful or not. Even if
"he" wanted to send this to individuals and not to the group, it would
still be a load of UCE. Don't let your always positive-thinking nature
be fooled by this lip service of the spammer/troll and don't feed it.
I have already sent complaint to Google Groups, we can only hope this
will stop it eventually somewhen.
PointedEars