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html form: date field auto-adjust

P: n/a
Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the form
'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user switches to
another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that show
an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one on my own)

Does someone has such a script for me?

much thanks in advance!

Martin
Jul 23 '05 #1
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36 Replies


P: n/a
Lee
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the form
'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user switches to
another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that show
an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one on my own)


That can't be done, because the code can't guess whether 1122005 is January 12
or November 2. That's why you have to ask the user to correct it.

Jul 23 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Lee" <RE**************@cox.net> wrote in message
news:d1*********@drn.newsguy.com...
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the form
'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user switches toanother form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that show
an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one on my
own)
That can't be done, because the code can't guess whether 1122005 is January 12 or November 2. That's why you have to ask the user to correct it.


Unless you only reformat the entry with dashes if it has a length of 8.

<html>
<head>
<title>ddmmyyyy.htm</title>
<script type="text/javascript">
function format(that) {
var what = that.value;
if (what.length != 8) return;
that.value = what.substr(0,2) + "-" + what.substr(2,2) + "-" +
what.substr(4);
}
</script>
</head>
<body>
<form>
<input type="text" name="dmy" size="10" maxlength="10"
value="01122005" onblur="format(this)">
</form>
</body>
</html>
Jul 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
Lee wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the
form 'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user
switches to another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy'
to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that
show an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one
on my own)


That can't be done, because the code can't guess whether 1122005 is
January 12 or November 2. That's why you have to ask the user to
correct it.


'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Given these constraints and
the boundaries of the "current" century
it can be done.

function organize(x){
if (/^\d{8}$/.test(x))
x.value = x.replace(/(\d{2})(\d{2})(\d{4})/,'$1-$2-$3')
else if (/^\d{1,2}\d{1,2}\d{2}$/.test(x)) {
a = x.split('-')
x.value = two(a[0])+'-'+two(a[1])+
'-'+(+a[2]>30)?'19'+a[2]:'20'+a[2]
}
}

function two(x){
return (x<10)?'0'+x:x
}

...............

<input onblur='organize(this)'>

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)

Jul 23 '05 #4

P: n/a
Evertjan. wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Given these constraints and
the boundaries of the "current" century
it can be done.

function organize(x){
if (/^\d{8}$/.test(x))
x.value = x.replace(/(\d{2})(\d{2})(\d{4})/,'$1-$2-$3')
else if (/^\d{1,2}\d{1,2}\d{2}$/.test(x)) {
else if (/^\d{1,2}-\d{1,2}-\d{2}$/.test(x)) {
a = x.split('-')
x.value = two(a[0])+'-'+two(a[1])+
'-'+(+a[2]>30)?'19'+a[2]:'20'+a[2]
}
}

function two(x){
return (x<10)?'0'+x:x
}


--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)

Jul 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
In article <Xn********************@194.109.133.29>,
ex**************@interxnl.net says...
Lee wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the
form 'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user
switches to another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy'
to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Instead of using a textbox, maybe you could try dynamic listboxes
instead. That way, when the month listbox is clicked, the appropriate
amount of days are filled in the days listbox.

This way, you wouldn't have to worry if they put in a bad character or
not.

Jul 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
Lee
Evertjan. said:

Lee wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the
form 'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user
switches to another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy'
to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that
show an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one
on my own)


That can't be done, because the code can't guess whether 1122005 is
January 12 or November 2. That's why you have to ask the user to
correct it.


'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Given these constraints and
the boundaries of the "current" century
it can be done.


But you can't assume those constraints.

Jul 23 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Lee" <RE**************@cox.net> wrote in message
news:d1*********@drn.newsguy.com...
Martin Herrman said:

Dear scripters,

I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the form
'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user switches toanother form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

I have searched the net using google, but only found validators that show
an error if an incorrect format is used. (and I can't write one on my
own)
That can't be done, because the code can't guess whether 1122005 is January 12 or November 2. That's why you have to ask the user to correct it.


"... e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'." doesn't include
'd-mm-yyy';
therefore, '1122005' is November 2, 2005.

Unless the examples ("e.g.") were not definitive.

Jul 23 '05 #8

P: n/a
Lee wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Given these constraints and
the boundaries of the "current" century
it can be done.


But you can't assume those constraints.


They are given by the OP.

Why improving on a reasonable request,
instead of showing the asked code?
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)

Jul 23 '05 #9

P: n/a
McKirahan wrote:
[...]

"... e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'." doesn't include
'd-mm-yyy';
therefore, '1122005' is November 2, 2005.


Based on the suggested format, I make it 1 December 2005, or it
may be 11 February 2005.

Or does ddmmyyyy really mean mmddyyyy?

--
Zif
Jul 23 '05 #10

P: n/a
"Zifud" <Zi***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eI****************@news.optus.net.au...
McKirahan wrote:
[...]

"... e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'." doesn't include
'd-mm-yyy';
therefore, '1122005' is November 2, 2005.


Based on the suggested format, I make it 1 December 2005, or it
may be 11 February 2005.

Or does ddmmyyyy really mean mmddyyyy?

--
Zif


I should have said:

therefore, '1122005' is 11-Feb-2005.

Thanks.
Jul 23 '05 #11

P: n/a
Lee
Evertjan. said:

Lee wrote on 15 mrt 2005 in comp.lang.javascript:
'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.

Given these constraints and
the boundaries of the "current" century
it can be done.


But you can't assume those constraints.


They are given by the OP.

Why improving on a reasonable request,
instead of showing the asked code?


It's not a reasonable request. Just because the OP believes
that every user will choose one of those three formats, why
in the world should you go along with his fantasy?

Jul 23 '05 #12

P: n/a
"McKirahan" <Ne**@McKirahan.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:kt********************@comcast.com...
"Zifud" <Zi***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eI****************@news.optus.net.au...
McKirahan wrote:
[...]

"... e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy' to 'dd-mm-yyyy'." doesn't include
'd-mm-yyy';
therefore, '1122005' is November 2, 2005.


Based on the suggested format, I make it 1 December 2005, or it
may be 11 February 2005.

Or does ddmmyyyy really mean mmddyyyy?

--
Zif


I should have said:

therefore, '1122005' is 11-Feb-2005.

Thanks.


'1122005' is either 1-Dec-2005 or 11-Feb-2005.

To remove any ambiguity, you should always use two digits for the day and
the month.
Jul 23 '05 #13

P: n/a
"Morris" <mo********@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d3*********************@weber.videotron.net.. .
'1122005' is either 1-Dec-2005 or 11-Feb-2005.

To remove any ambiguity, you should always use two digits for the day and
the month.


Duh! Jumping in a little late aren't we...

You should have read the full thread first.
Jul 23 '05 #14

P: n/a
Lee wrote:
It's not a reasonable request. Just because the OP believes
that every user will choose one of those three formats, why
in the world should you go along with his fantasy?


It is just as unreasonable to assume that you know and understand every
situation that could exist. Enough so to state that the original request is
unreasonable.

A reasonable response would be to answer the question, then point out the
possible problems with such a situation. The OP can consider them if
necessary, or decide that they don't apply.

--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
Jul 23 '05 #15

P: n/a
Martin Herrman wrote:
I am working on a HTML form in which a date must be entered of the
form 'dd-mm-yyyy'. Now I'm looking for a script that, when the user
switches to another form field, changes e.g. 'ddmmyyyy' or 'dd-m-yy'
to 'dd-mm-yyyy'.


Using my functions at: http://www.mattkruse.com/javascript/date/

function switchDate(obj) {
var d = parseDate(obj.value);
if (d==null) {
obj.value = "";
return;
}
obj.value = formatDate(d,"dd-MM-yyyy");
}

<input type="text" name="date" onChange="switchDate(this)">

// ------------------------------------------------------------------
// parseDate( date_string [, prefer_euro_format] )
//
// This function takes a date string and tries to match it to a
// number of possible date formats to get the value. It will try to
// match against the following international formats, in this order:
// y-M-d MMM d, y MMM d,y y-MMM-d d-MMM-y MMM d
// M/d/y M-d-y M.d.y MMM-d M/d M-d
// d/M/y d-M-y d.M.y d-MMM d/M d-M
// A second argument may be passed to instruct the method to search
// for formats like d/M/y (european format) before M/d/y (American).
// Returns a Date object or null if no patterns match.
// ------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimers:

(1) Be aware that users may enter dates in formats that you aren't
expecting, and may be surprised at the results they see.

(2) Always validate on the server-side if your code depends on a certain
format.

--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
Jul 23 '05 #16

P: n/a
Lee
Matt Kruse said:

Lee wrote:
It's not a reasonable request. Just because the OP believes
that every user will choose one of those three formats, why
in the world should you go along with his fantasy?


It is just as unreasonable to assume that you know and understand every
situation that could exist. Enough so to state that the original request is
unreasonable.

A reasonable response would be to answer the question, then point out the
possible problems with such a situation. The OP can consider them if
necessary, or decide that they don't apply.


"Here's your answer, but it won't work."

I'll leave that to others, thanks.

Jul 23 '05 #17

P: n/a
Lee wrote:
"Here's your answer, but it won't work."
I'll leave that to others, thanks.


The point is, you don't know it won't work. Because you don't know the
entire situation.

Furthermore, not every solution needs to be 100% fool-proof to provide
value.

If someone types 1/2/2005 into the OP's form and it's changed to 02-01-2005
when they really meant 01-02-2005, then the user will see that the date is
wrong and correct it.

Or, maybe the user wants this for an intranet in a single country where
everyone will type in dates in the same format. Or maybe a web site that
only serves a local community, where everyone will enter dates in the same
format.

You never know.

--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
Jul 23 '05 #18

P: n/a
JRS: In article <d1*********@news4.newsguy.com>, dated Tue, 15 Mar 2005
20:00:09, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Matt Kruse
<ne********@mattkruse.com> posted :
Martin Herrman wrote: // This function takes a date string and tries to match it to a
// number of possible date formats to get the value. It will try to
// match against the following international formats, in this order:
Unfortunately, the Americans think that the word "foreign" is spelt
i n t e r n a t i o n a l .

The international formats are yyyy-mm-dd and certain others derived from
that, such as yyyymmdd; they are given by the internationally-agreed
standard ISO 8601.

Those that followed were multi-national formats.

There is always a risk with code that is willing to accept either, say,
25/12/2004 or 12/25/2004 may be employed without testing that it gives
the right result for days before the 13th of the month with D!=M.
(2) Always validate on the server-side if your code depends on a certain
format.


Never make rash assumptions; there may not *be* server side processing;
there may be nothing sent from the reader's copy of a Web page back over
the Internet, or the javascript may be executed by WSH on the machine
where it resides.

Final validation should be on a machine under the control of those who
use the values in question. Validation at data entry may well be
helpful to those who enter data. That, I think, covers everything.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4 ©
<URL:http://www.jibbering.com/faq/> JL/RC: FAQ of news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
Jul 23 '05 #19

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
// This function takes a date string and tries to match it to a
// number of possible date formats to get the value. It will try to
// match against the following international formats, in this order:

Unfortunately, the Americans think that the word "foreign" is spelt
i n t e r n a t i o n a l .
The international formats are yyyy-mm-dd and certain others derived
from that, such as yyyymmdd; they are given by the
internationally-agreed standard ISO 8601.


International means:
1. Of, relating to, or involving two or more nations
2. Extending across or transcending national boundaries

A list of "international" formats, to me, means those date formats used
across various nations.

But if you want to play semantics games, go ahead...

--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
Jul 23 '05 #20

P: n/a
rh
Dr John Stockton wrote:

<..>
function FudgeDate(S) { var A, m = "-", O = '0'
if (/^(\d\d)(\d\d)(\d\d\d\d)$/.test(S))
with (RegExp) return $1 + m + $2 + m + $3
if (/^(\d)(\d)(\d\d)$/.test(S)) // ?
with (RegExp) return O + $1 + m + O + $2 + m + "20" + $3 // ?
A = S.split(/\D+/)
if (A.length!=3) return
if (+A[2]<100) A[2] = +A[2] + 2000
if (A[1].length<2) A[1] = O + A[1]
if (A[0].length<2) A[0] = O + A[0]
return A[0] + m + A[1] + m + A[2] }
There's something better than using test & $1 $2 $3 that way; but I
don't recall it at the moment.


You may have been thinking of "match" where the captures are available
in the resulting array (provided the "g" modifier is not used), e.g.:

function FudgeDate( v ) {
var x;
v = v.replace( /^\s+|\s+$/g, "" );
if ( x = v.match( /^(\d\d)(\d\d)(\d\d\d\d)$/ ) );
else if( x = v.match( /^(\d)(\d)(\d\d)$/ ) );
if ( x ) x.shift( );
else {
x = v.split( /\D+/ );
if ( x.length < 3 ) return;
}
if ( x[ 2 ] < 100 ) x[ 2 ] = + x[ 2 ] + 2000;
return ( "0"+x.join( "-0" ) ).replace( /0(\d{2})/g, "$1" );
}
As some are "shift" deficient:

Array.prototype.shift = ( function ( ) {
if ( Array.prototype.shift ) return Array.prototype.shift;
return function( ) {
var ret;
if( this.length ) {
ret = this[ 0 ];
for ( var k = 1; k < this.length; k++ ) this[ k-1 ] = this[
k ];
this.length--;
}
return ret;
}
}
) ( );

../rh

Jul 23 '05 #21

P: n/a
Lee
Matt Kruse said:

Lee wrote:
It seems to me to be more prudent and efficient to point out
serious problems before wasting time developing a solution.


My response took about 1 minute to post, and it seems to address the
poster's request perfectly.
I even added some disclaimers.
And I wasn't an ass about it.


So you've sent the OP off to implement your solution with
the thought, somewhere in the back of his mind, that it may
not work all the time, and that there is something about doing
it on the server that might be important, too. Congratulations
on not being an ass.

Jul 23 '05 #22

P: n/a
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.com> writes:
International means:
1. Of, relating to, or involving two or more nations
2. Extending across or transcending national boundaries

A list of "international" formats, to me, means those date formats used
across various nations.


I.e., any format used in more than one nation. I.e., any format :)

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Jul 23 '05 #23

P: n/a
JRS: In article <d1*********@news4.newsguy.com>, dated Wed, 16 Mar 2005
21:53:32, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Matt Kruse
<ne********@mattkruse.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:
// This function takes a date string and tries to match it to a
// number of possible date formats to get the value. It will try to
// match against the following international formats, in this order: Unfortunately, the Americans think that the word "foreign" is spelt
i n t e r n a t i o n a l .
The international formats are yyyy-mm-dd and certain others derived
from that, such as yyyymmdd; they are given by the
internationally-agreed standard ISO 8601.


International means:


Insert : In the American dialect
1. Of, relating to, or involving two or more nations
2. Extending across or transcending national boundaries

A list of "international" formats, to me, means those date formats used
across various nations.
That's because you know American, not English.
But if you want to play semantics games, go ahead...


However, many here have been taught properly - probably almost all of
those educated in mainland Europe, and the Scots of course, and some of
those educated not-too-recently in England too - and it will be helpful
for them to realise that what you appear to mean is not what you
actually mean. The OP, apparently a student in the Netherlands, may
well be one such.

To see the standard use of the word "international", see how it is used
in International Standards - if you can find copies in the USA.

Your meaning is AIUI that customary in the US computer industry.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ??*@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Check boilerplate spelling -- error is a public sign of incompetence.
Never fully trust an article from a poster who gives no full real name.
Jul 23 '05 #24

P: n/a
JRS: In article <11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups .com>
, dated Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:22:08, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, rh
<co********@yahoo.ca> posted :
There's something better than using test & $1 $2 $3 that way; but I
don't recall it at the moment.


You may have been thinking of "match" where the captures are available
in the resulting array (provided the "g" modifier is not used)


In principle, yes (and that might be better) : but a search of my site
suggests I was actually thinking of "exec" as in
function ValidDate(y, m, d) { // m = 0..11 ; y m d integers, y!=0
with (new Date(y, m, d))
return (getMonth()==m && getDate()==d) /* was y, m */ }

function ReadISO8601date(Q) { var T // adaptable for other layouts
if ((T = /^(\d+)([-\/])(\d\d)(\2)(\d\d)$/.exec(Q)) == null)
{ return -2 } // bad format
for (var j=1; j<=5; j+=2) T[j] = +T[j] // some use needs numbers
if (!ValidDate(T[1], T[3]-1, T[5])) { return -1 } // bad value
return [ T[1], T[3], T[5] ] }
which latter reads and validates an ISO date (being a little liberal as
regards separators, and only after Year -1) and returns either a
negative error number or an array [Y, M, D].

A version which if successful returns the Date Object generated in
ValidDate else undefined or NaN might be worth having.

+ + +

I now have parameterised javascript for all the sorts of week number
that I can think of which have Week 1 near January 1, not just the
International Standard one (Week 1 starts on a fixed day of a fixed
month, can be trivially derived from code for Inland Revenue weeks) -
see <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/weekcalc.htm#NIC>.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4 ©
<URL:http://www.jibbering.com/faq/> JL/RC: FAQ of news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
Jul 23 '05 #25

P: n/a
rh
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups .com> , dated Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:22:08, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, rh <co********@yahoo.ca> posted :
There's something better than using test & $1 $2 $3 that way; but I don't recall it at the moment.

You may have been thinking of "match" where the captures are availablein the resulting array (provided the "g" modifier is not used)


In principle, yes (and that might be better) : but a search of my

site suggests I was actually thinking of "exec" as in


Take your choice. According to ECMA 262/3 - 15.5.4.10, in the absence
of the "g" modifier on the RegExp, use of "exec" and "match" should
provide identical results.

If there are browser exceptions, I'm not aware.

<..>

../rh

Jul 23 '05 #26

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <d1*********@news4.newsguy.com>, dated Wed, 16 Mar 2005
21:53:32, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Matt Kruse
<ne********@mattkruse.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:
// This function takes a date string and tries to match it to a
// number of possible date formats to get the value. It will try to
// match against the following international formats, in this order:

Unfortunately, the Americans think that the word "foreign" is spelt
i n t e r n a t i o n a l .
The international formats are yyyy-mm-dd and certain others derived
from that, such as yyyymmdd; they are given by the
internationally-agreed standard ISO 8601.
International means:

Insert : In the American dialect


Insert: In the opinion of John Stockton, that is what it means "In the
American dialect".

If you were as educated on the dialects as you seem to think you are
then you would be well aware that there are at minimum 5 distinct
dialects in the USA.
1. Of, relating to, or involving two or more nations
2. Extending across or transcending national boundaries

A list of "international" formats, to me, means those date formats used
across various nations.

That's because you know American, not English.


Hmmm. Official Language of the USA: English.
But if you want to play semantics games, go ahead...

However, many here have been taught properly


Are you that ignorant to imply that those taught in the American schools
were not "taught properly"? They *were* taught properly, they just
weren't taught what you think they should have been taught.
- probably almost all of those educated in mainland Europe, and the Scots of course, and some of
those educated not-too-recently in England too - and it will be helpful
for them to realise that what you appear to mean is not what you
actually mean.
Insert: In the opinion of John Stockton.

But, how do you know what he meant to say? Are you a psychic Jackass now
or still just a Jackass?
To see the standard use of the word "international", see how it is used
in International Standards - if you can find copies in the USA.
The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.
Your meaning is AIUI that customary in the US computer industry.


Among other places.

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Jul 23 '05 #27

P: n/a
JRS: In article <-f********************@comcast.com>, dated Thu, 17 Mar
2005 20:11:00, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:
That's because you know American, not English.


Hmmm. Official Language of the USA: English.


Only in the American language.
The proper term, in English, is American English.
There are resemblances; but there are definite differences, one of which
is the meaning of that word.

The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.


Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.

The undeniable point remains : that the way in which most Americans, or
at least most American technicians, use the word "International" is
liable to deceive people in other parts of the world.

Evidently you now know the meaning of the word "International" as used
in "International Organization for Standards", often called
"International Standards Organization" or just ISO : is there an
American word that expresses that meaning, as opposed to the US
customary one, or is their language deficient because Americans don't
have the concept?

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 23 '05 #28

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <-f********************@comcast.com>, dated Thu, 17 Mar
2005 20:11:00, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.com> posted :
The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.
Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.


If you are under the curious impression that all the words of English
(or any other language, for that matter) are univocal, as you seem to be
pronouncing, I suggest you spend a little time with that magisterial
work, yourself. "Set" is instructive, but "cleave" is more amusing.

By the way, British educational standards are at least as debased as
American, these days; see
<URL:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1059-1530304,00.html> for a
grim example.

---
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W.
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"
Jul 23 '05 #29

P: n/a
>>The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.
Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.


This ain't France, bub. The OED is definitive on the evolution of the
language, but like most good dictionaries it is descriptive, not
prescriptive, when it comes to current usage.

'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, `whether you _can_ make words mean so
many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master -- that's
all.'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../wrrrldwideweb
Jul 23 '05 #30

P: n/a
Douglas Crockford wrote:
The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard.
I am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition
for *any* word.


Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.

This ain't France, bub. The OED is definitive on the evolution of the
language, but like most good dictionaries it is descriptive, not
prescriptive, when it comes to current usage.

'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, `whether you _can_ make words mean so
many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master -- that's
all.'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../wrrrldwideweb


"Let no one say, and say it to your shame,
That there was meaning here before you came."
-- C. S. Lewis
Jul 23 '05 #31

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <-f********************@comcast.com>, dated Thu, 17 Mar
2005 20:11:00, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:
That's because you know American, not English.


Hmmm. Official Language of the USA: English.

Only in the American language.


There is no such thing as "American Language". It may very well be a set
of dialects of a dialect of the original English Language but it is not
a Language in, and of, itself.
The proper term, in English, is American English.
British English, American English, Austrailian English, or what specific
"English" are you referring to?
There are resemblances; but there are definite differences, one of which
is the meaning of that word.
There are definite differences in the meaning of *any* word, and not
even across languages. Sometimes, even within a dialect words have
different meanings.

The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.

Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.


Thats asinine.
The undeniable point remains : that the way in which most Americans, or
at least most American technicians, use the word "International" is
liable to deceive people in other parts of the world.


No, the undeniable point is that you are trying to enforce your personal
preferences about the definition of the word "International" to fit your
own beliefs.

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq
Jul 23 '05 #32

P: n/a
JRS: In article <3Z********************@comcast.com>, dated Fri, 18 Mar
2005 22:38:06, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.com> posted :
...


I note that you have chickened out of answering my question :
Evidently you now know the meaning of the word "International" as used
in "International Organization for Standards", often called
"International Standards Organization" or just ISO : is there an
American word that expresses that meaning, as opposed to the US
customary one, or is their language deficient because Americans don't
have the concept?

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt> RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zip> Timo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
Jul 23 '05 #33

P: n/a
JRS: In article <c8***************************@msgid.meganewsserve rs.co
m>, dated Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:41:59, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript,
Douglas Crockford <no****@covad.net> posted :
The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.

Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.


This ain't France, bub. The OED is definitive on the evolution of the
language, but like most good dictionaries it is descriptive, not
prescriptive, when it comes to current usage.


I do not have a full OED here.

No doubt it describes, as it should, all usage that a reader may come
across. But ISTR that, read with reasonable care, it provides an
adequate indication of which meanings are appropriate for use when
writing good current English, and which are not.

But I grant that the Academie Francaise, which I remembered too late, is
a more definitive example.

Nevertheless, one should note that ISO uses the word International with
a definite meaning - the one I agree with - and who should know better?
I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is an ISO 0 or 1
which defines authoritatively how to read and write International
Standards, including what such words mean.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk DOS 3.3, 6.20; Win98. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
PAS EXE TXT ZIP via <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/00index.htm>
My DOS <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/batfiles.htm> - also batprogs.htm.
Jul 23 '05 #34

P: n/a
Randy Webb wrote:
Thats asinine.


Yes, John is.

Everyone knows that a 'standard' only has meaning if people decide to follow
it.
"International" means whatever people agree that it means.

--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
Jul 23 '05 #35

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <3Z********************@comcast.com>, dated Fri, 18 Mar
2005 22:38:06, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Randy Webb
<Hi************@aol.com> posted :
...

I note that you have chickened out of answering my question :


Now thats as ludicrous as you have asked/accused in a long time. I
chickened out of nothing. I chose to ignore a question/comment that in
my opinion was intended to do nothing more than annoy me. But it didn't
work.
Evidently you now know the meaning of the word "International" as used
in "International Organization for Standards", often called
"International Standards Organization" or just ISO :
Yep, I know what the word International means. And I know what it means
in the context of ISO.

is there an American word that expresses that meaning, as opposed to the US
customary one, or is their language deficient because Americans don't have
the concept?


I am not sure what you are intending to ask here. Is that to imply that
the US doesn't know what the word "International" means? Yes, there is a
word for that - "International". Just because you don't seem to accept
that many US citizens know the meaning of the word does *not* mean they
"don't have the concept".

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Jul 23 '05 #36

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton wrote:
JRS: In article <c8***************************@msgid.meganewsserve rs.co
m>, dated Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:41:59, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript,
Douglas Crockford <no****@covad.net> posted :
The "standard" use is dependent on who you let define that standard. I
am unaware of *any* authority that gives a "standard" definition for
*any* word.
Yes, most Americans are sadly ignorant of the Oxford English Dictionary
in particular, and of International Standards in general.


This ain't France, bub. The OED is definitive on the evolution of the
language, but like most good dictionaries it is descriptive, not
prescriptive, when it comes to current usage.

I do not have a full OED here.


Then you should not use it as a defense of your stance.
No doubt it describes, as it should, all usage that a reader may come
across.
That is very highly doubtful, but the reason for that would elude you.
But ISTR that, read with reasonable care, it provides an adequate
indication of which meanings are appropriate for use when writing good
current English, and which are not.
Which is totally, and 100%, dependent upon the interpretation of the
reader, which makes it totally useless for that point.
But I grant that the Academie Francaise, which I remembered too late, is
a more definitive example.
Hindsight is *always* 20/20, is it not?
Nevertheless, one should note that ISO uses the word International with
a definite meaning - the one I agree with - and who should know better?
The fact that you agree with it is irrelevant.
I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is an ISO 0 or 1
which defines authoritatively how to read and write International
Standards, including what such words mean.


Then perhaps you should find where it defines what it means when the ISO
says it is "International" and report back to us.
--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Jul 23 '05 #37

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