strange popup behaviour | IE 6.xx vs. everything else

[cooch17]

Greetings -

I have a number of websites that make use of popups spawned by a user
clicking a link. Nothing fancy - here is typical code:

<a href="popup.html" target="pop_win"
onClick="msgWindow=window.open('','pop_win',
'resizable=no,width=600,height=300')"> click here</a>
Now, this works perfectly with Mozilla, Firefox, Opera - everything
except good old IE 6.xx (6.0.29, on my main machine). When I try this
link with IE, I get the following errors (in a little popup window).

Line: 146
Char: 1
Error: class not registered
Code: 0
URL: URL of the page with the preceding code

Any ideas what the problem is? Why is IE being so cranky? Too easy
just to blame Micro$oft, but when 80-90% of your users are still using
IE, its hard to ignore.

[cooch17]

A clue - for grins I tried loading the same page using a slightly
earlier version of IE on another machine - 6.0.28, to be precise.
Works fine. The 'upgrade' to 6.0.29 is related to the SP2 upgrade with
Windows XP.

So, I'm *guessing* that some of the security *upgrades" associated
with SP2 prevents some Javascripts from working that used to work.

OK - regardless of whether or not this is a good thing, the more
practical question is - what is a valid workaround? Any suggestions?

Thansk in advance...

[VK]

The new releases of IE have (finally!) a built-in popup blocker, and this
blocker (finally!) is turned on by default.

The workaround would be to stop using popups. You have the entire browser
screen in your disposition. It is plenty enough to say and show to your
visitors whatever you have to say and show.

[cooch17]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:02:52 +0100, "VK" <sc**********@yahoo.com>
wrote:

The new releases of IE have (finally!) a built-in popup blocker, and this
blocker (finally!) is turned on by default.
Whoop-ti-do - Mozilla has had it for years. Can tabbed browser be far
behind? :-)

The workaround would be to stop using popups. You have the entire browser
screen in your disposition. It is plenty enough to say and show to your
visitors whatever you have to say and show.

That is your opinion - for some purposes, the popup paradigm works
perfectly well, and is in fact more convenient than having the user
have to toggle back and forth between pages. I don't dispute that
popups can be overused, but not always.

Moreoever, there are a lot of authentication schemes out there that
use popups. I've just tried accessing a number of secure sites, and
they've all crashed and burned with IE, because of the popup problem.

What I resent is that IE has the default set to block ALL popups.
Mozilla takes a better approach (to popups, and about everything else
too). No blocking UNLESS you request it.

I'm toying with using IE redirects to a generic page asking people to
dump IE in favor of a less draconian browser.

[cooch17]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:04:04 -0500, co*****@NOSPAMverizon.net wrote:

Greetings -

I have a number of websites that make use of popups spawned by a user
clicking a link. Nothing fancy - here is typical code:

<a href="popup.html" target="pop_win"
onClick="msgWindow=window.open('','pop_win',
'resizable=no,width=600,height=300')"> click here</a>

More curious - with IE, you can "allow" popups from certain sites.
But, for some reason, even when I try explicitly allowing popups from
my server, the preceding code still yields the same error message.

Line: 146
Char: 1
Error: class not registered
Code: 0
URL: URL of the page with the preceding code
This makes no sense at all - what does it mean when it says 'class not
registered'? Moreoever, I've looked at line 146, and in fact it isn't
even part of the code that pops up the window.

Weird...suggestions?

[Michael Winter]

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:26:24 -0500, <co*****@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:02:52 +0100, "VK" <sc**********@yahoo.com> wrote:

The new releases of IE have (finally!) a built-in popup blocker, and
this blocker (finally!) is turned on by default.
Whoop-ti-do - Mozilla has had it for years.

That's his point! IE lags behind every other modern browser in the market.
It's a shame its users don't realise that.
Can tabbed browser be far behind? :-)
Yes. I wouldn't expect it to appear on IE 6. You'll have to wait for the
new version that will be released with Longhorn (and only Longhorn, as I
understand it). That's around two years away and most Windows users will
still be using prior IE versions.

The workaround would be to stop using popups. You have the entire
browser screen in your disposition. It is plenty enough to say and show
to your visitors whatever you have to say and show.

That is your opinion - for some purposes, the popup paradigm works
perfectly well, and is in fact more convenient than having the user have
to toggle back and forth between pages.

Surely a properly designed page wouldn't require users to toggle backwards
and forwards?
I don't dispute that popups can be overused, but not always.
I agree that pop-ups have some limited uses, but the ones I can think of
at the moment can still be replaced by other means. I read again and again
that people in usability studies dislike pop-ups of all kinds. Couple that
with pop-up blockers (smart and total blockers), accessibility laws, and
the number of people (which may be increasing) which disable Javascript
entirely, and you have a technique that is no longer viable on the Web.
Moreoever, there are a lot of authentication schemes out there that use
popups.
So? That doesn't make pop-ups a good idea.
I've just tried accessing a number of secure sites, and they've all
crashed and burned with IE, because of the popup problem.
Precisely why a system shouldn't rely on them.

[snip]
I'm toying with using IE redirects to a generic page asking people to
dump IE in favor of a less draconian browser.

The "draconian" state is the least concern for IE users.

Mike

--
Michael Winter
Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.

[VK]

> I don't dispute that

popups can be overused, but not always.
Exactly, and if someone is trying to reach your local file system, it is not
necessary to format your disk, the intentions could be the most harmless.
Unfortunately, one cannot teach the browser to determine your real
intentions. Gosh, people themselves cannot do it!

If popup is a such important part of your authentication schemes, you could
use a Java applet. Java frames are not impacted (yet :) by popup blockers.

I'm toying with using IE redirects to a generic page asking people to
dump IE in favor of a less draconian browser.

"Stop the Earth, I want to exit here!" :-)
Emotional, but non-productive. We have to deal with the world, however
imperfect it is :-)

[cooch17]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:58:10 +0100, "VK" <sc**********@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I don't dispute that
popups can be overused, but not always.
Exactly, and if someone is trying to reach your local file system, it is not
necessary to format your disk, the intentions could be the most harmless.
Unfortunately, one cannot teach the browser to determine your real
intentions. Gosh, people themselves cannot do it!

If popup is a such important part of your authentication schemes, you could
use a Java applet. Java frames are not impacted (yet :) by popup blockers.

No "my" authetication schemes, but those used by a number of
commercial sites.

I'm toying with using IE redirects to a generic page asking people to
dump IE in favor of a less draconian browser.

"Stop the Earth, I want to exit here!" :-)
Emotional, but non-productive. We have to deal with the world, however
imperfect it is :-)

No, I'm Canadian, which (as several of my American colleagues tell
me), is getting close - why would I need to exit? :-)

[cooch17]

Surely a properly designed page wouldn't require users to toggle backwards
and forwards?
Not true - think of all the applications out there that have multiple
windows. Same thing applies to highly dynamic web sites. Often it is
more efficeint to have mutiple windows, which you can tile, or
cascade, as needed. You can't always cram everything on a single page,
and scrolling down is no more/less efficient than toggling back and
forth.

Popups have their place. Just, not with IE, it would seem.

I don't dispute that popups can be overused, but not always.
I agree that pop-ups have some limited uses, but the ones I can think of
at the moment can still be replaced by other means. I read again and again
that people in usability studies dislike pop-ups of all kinds. Couple that
with pop-up blockers (smart and total blockers), accessibility laws, and
the number of people (which may be increasing) which disable Javascript
entirely, and you have a technique that is no longer viable on the Web.

Personally, I find CSS/DHTM more annoying, but its use is increasing,
not decreasing. To each their own...


The "draconian" state is the least concern for IE users.

True - I only use it to test websites, and to access MS updates page.

[cooch17]

Aside from the philosophical mutterings about the utility (or not) of
popup windows, I was more concerned by said error messages. Made no
sense.

So, being anal, I tried everything, and finally came across the brute
force fix - I decided it must be a problem with IE, and not my code
(which is as generic as you can get). Since you can re-install IE on
an XP box (not easily), you can do almost the next best thing be
re-registering all of the IE services. Which I did - and lo,
everything now seems to work just fine. IE now gives me the option of
allowing specified popups.

One of the folks I talked to at MS said that sometimes this is a
necessary fix when IE starts misbehaving. I said a better fix would be
to dump IE entirely. They laughed. Maybe the evil empire is developing
a sesne of humour. :-)

[Michael Winter]

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:49:36 -0500, <co*****@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:

[MW:]

Surely a properly designed page wouldn't require users to toggle
backwards and forwards?
Not true - think of all the applications out there that have multiple
windows.

MDI applications don't *require* you to toggle back and forth in order to
complete a single operation.
Same thing applies to highly dynamic web sites.
I disagree. The Web is not a MDI application. It's a completely different
medium.
Often it is more efficeint to have mutiple windows, which you can tile,
or cascade, as needed.
Assuming people do that. I don't. My font sizes are relatively large and I
prefer to keep everything maximised. It's easier for me to use.
You can't always cram everything on a single page,
You don't have to cram everything on to a page. Only put what's relevant
there.

[snip]
Personally, I find CSS/DHTM more annoying, but its use is increasing,
not decreasing. To each their own...

However, a well-written, scripted solution will have no accessibility
issues and can be disabled with no loss of functionality. As you have
pointed out yourself, this doesn't usually happen with pop-ups.

[snip]

Mike

--
Michael Winter
Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.

[badkaarma]

Sounds like there's an argument between what's correct and what's not correct. Saying something has a bad design sometimes means that you just don't get it. What's obvious to one, can be completely obscure to someone else.

People who don't understand the web and are confused by it will be confused whether you use popups or not. People who do understand how the web works will figure out how to operate your site whether you use popups or not. Having said that, is one better than the other? Not sure, but if one is it's not because of design.

If you're a professional web developer, you know straight up that the decision to make it a "popup" or not will most likely not be yours. If the boss says "popup", you make a popup and it's that simple.

In any case, the goal shouldn't be to create site with popups or without. I think the goal for all of us web developers is to create a site that will end up being the most compatible for every client system. With as many popup blockers as there are installed on more client machines than there ever were, I'd say a trend might be shifting towards not using them. I say that not because I have feelings against them (in the right place, I believe they server their purpose nicely), but because you might be cutting out the larger audience.

Whichever way works on the greatest number of computers is the way you will get the best results. The best results is the right way.

My two cents.