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Why does an invisible FORM tag have offSetLeft == 8??

Please excuse me, this is a fairly involved question that will likely
require you to save the file below to a file and open it in a browser.
I use Mozilla 1.5, so the problem I describe below should be
reproducible with that version at least.

BACKGROUND:
===========

When you open this page in your browser, you will see a 4 cell table.
The cells contain the following items respectively:
1) Gray background
2) Pink background showing the current mouse X position
3) White background showing the X-coord of the left edge of Cell #1
4) Yellow background showing a traversal of nodes from Cell #1 up the
tree to the root node
I need to dynamically calculate the X-coord value of the left edge of
the gray box. By placing the mouse on the left edge of the gray box,
and observing the value in the Pink cell, you can find out what the
"correct" value should be.

The way I calculate the X-coord of the left edge of the Gray cell is
to walk up the tree till I hit the root, accummulating the offSetLeft
values along the way. In theory this should give me the x-coord value
of my cell. This is the value you see in the White cell. In the yellow
cell, you see each node along the way and its offset value.

PROBLEM:
========

Now here is the issue: The "correct" value and the computed value
differ (approx 10 VS 18). I am trying to figure out why. I have found
that FORM tag adds 8 pixels to the computed value.... even though it
is completely invisible and doesn't affect the actual onscreen
placement of its child nodes. You can try it yourself by removing the
form tag.
So does anyone know how to get around this issue? Why does an
invisible form tag add 8 pixels? Is there some alternate/easier way to
get the X coord of the left edge of an Element??

------------------------------------------------------------------------

<HTML>
<HEAD>

<SCRIPT language="JavaS cript1.2">
<!--
var IE = document.all?tr ue:false;
// If NS -- that is, !IE -- then set up for mouse capture
if (!IE) document.captur eEvents(Event.M OUSEMOVE)

// Set-up to use getMouseXY function onMouseMove
document.releas eEvents(Event.M OUSEMOVE);
document.onmous emove = getMousePos;

// Temporary variables to hold mouse x-y pos.s
var mouseX = 0

// Main function to retrieve mouse x-y pos.s
function getMousePos(e) {
if (IE) // grab the x pos.s if browser is IE
mouseX = event.clientX + document.body.s crollLeft;
else // grab the x pos.s if browser is NS
mouseX = e.pageX;

// catch possible negative values in NS4
if (mouseX < 0){mouseX = 0}
document.getEle mentById('MOUSE _XPOS').childNo des[0].data = mouseX;
return true;
}

function getLeftXCoord(e lement)
{
currElement = element;
xOffSet = 0;

document.getEle mentById('TRAVE RSAL_TEXT').chi ldNodes[0].data =
'\tTag=' + currElement.tag Name + ',\tOffset=' + currElement.off setLeft
+ ',\tCummulative Offset=' + xOffSet + '\n';
while (currElement.pa rentNode != null)
{
xOffSet += currElement.off setLeft;
currElement = currElement.par entNode;
document.getEle mentById('TRAVE RSAL_TEXT').chi ldNodes[0].data
+= '\tTag=' + currElement.tag Name + ',\tOffset=' +
currElement.off setLeft + ',\tCummulative Offset=' + xOffSet + '\n';
}
// alert(xOffSet + '; ' + element.scrollT op)
// alert(xOffSet + ' | ' + window.status);
return xOffSet;
}


//-->
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>
<FORM name="myForm">
<BODY>
<table border=1 >
<TR>
<TD
bgcolor="gray"
name="TABLE_CEL L"
id="TABLE_CELL "
Gray Box
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD bgcolor="pink"> Mouse X Position: <PRE
name="MOUSE_XPO S" id="MOUSE_XPOS" >0</PRE>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Left Edge of Gray Box: &nbsp;
<input
type="text"
value="xxx"
name="TABLE_TEX T"
id="TABLE_TEXT "

onMouseOver="ja vascript:getEle mentById('TABLE _TEXT').value =
getLeftXCoord(d ocument.getElem entById('TABLE_ CELL'));"

</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD bgcolor="yellow ">Tree Traversal from Gray Box to
Root: <BR>
<PRE name="TRAVERSAL _TEXT"
id="TRAVERSAL_T EXT">XXX</PRE>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</FORM>
</HTML>
Jul 20 '05 #1
11 2024
On 26 Feb 2004 12:56:25 -0800, Saqib Ali <sy************ @yahoo.com> wrote:
Please excuse me, this is a fairly involved question that will likely
require you to save the file below to a file and open it in a browser.
I use Mozilla 1.5, so the problem I describe below should be
reproducible with that version at least.


[snip]

Your form isn't invisible - it's invalid.

You can't expect JavaScript or CSS to behave properly when they operate on
invalid HTML. Validate your pages first, then re-test.

You can use the W3C validator at:

http://validator.w3.org/

Mike

--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #2
[This followup was posted to comp.lang.javas cript and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:42:17 -0800 (PST), Saqib Ali
<sy************ @yahoo.com> wrote:
Your post below isn't much help.

I tried using the validator that you specified but it
didn't tell me what specific change I need to make to
my file to make it pass.

Incidentally, I gave the validator the following HTML
and it said it was invalid as well.

<HTML>
<HEAD>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Hello World
</BODY>
</HTML>


That's because it *is* invalid HTML. Valid HTML documents need a DOCTYPE
declaration, a default character set (sometimes sent automatically by the
server), and a TITLE element in the HEAD block.

Here is my default template[1].

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/javascript">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/javascript">

<title>Untitled </title>
</head>

<body>
</body>
</html>

However, based on your post to the newsgroup, you will have to use the
Transitional DOCTYPE which allows elements and attributes such as FONT and
bgcolor. The Transitional DOCTYPE is:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

Mike

[1] As it stands, it won't validate either, but that's only because the
BODY section has no content.

--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #3
Michael Winter wrote:
[This followup was posted to comp.lang.javas cript and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:42:17 -0800 (PST), Saqib Ali
<sy************ @yahoo.com> wrote:
Your post below isn't much help.

I tried using the validator that you specified but it
didn't tell me what specific change I need to make to
my file to make it pass.

Incidentally, I gave the validator the following HTML
and it said it was invalid as well.

<HTML>
<HEAD>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Hello World
</BODY>
</HTML>

That's because it *is* invalid HTML. Valid HTML documents need a DOCTYPE
declaration, a default character set (sometimes sent automatically by
the server), and a TITLE element in the HEAD block.


I could be dead wrong here, but I seem to recall a debate, I believe in
ciwah, and the only tag that was found to be required in HTML was the
title tag, the rest are optional. The Validator requires the DTD for
validation purposes. Or at least thats my understanding of it all.
Here is my default template[1].

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/javascript">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/javascript">


Is that a typo? Content-Style-Type of text/javascript?
--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 20 '05 #4
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:22:20 -0500, Randy Webb <hi************ @aol.com>
wrote:
Michael Winter wrote:
[snip]
That's because it *is* invalid HTML. Valid HTML documents need a
DOCTYPE declaration, a default character set (sometimes sent
automatically by the server), and a TITLE element in the HEAD block.


I could be dead wrong here, but I seem to recall a debate, I believe in
ciwah, and the only tag that was found to be required in HTML was the
title tag, the rest are optional. The Validator requires the DTD for
validation purposes. Or at least thats my understanding of it all.


After reading various bits of the specification.. .

Technically speaking, the DTD is required as it defines the elements and
their attributes used in the document. Realistically, we know this doesn't
happen, but the fact that browsers render documents differently depending
on the DTD provided shows that it is needed for (semi-) consistent display.

From Section 5.1 of the HTML Standard:

"To promote interoperabilit y, SGML requires that each application
(including HTML) specify its document character set."

That would indicate to me that either a server or META declaration is
required on all documents.

As for only needing TITLE, according to the Strict DTD, both HEAD and BODY
must occur, in that order, which implies the inclusion of the HTML element:

<!ENTITY % html.content "HEAD, BODY">

<!ELEMENT HTML O O (%html.content; )>
<!ATTLIST HTML
%i18n; -- lang, dir --

%head.content; - TITLE and an optional BASE - must occur in HEAD:

<!ENTITY % head.content "TITLE & BASE?">

<!ELEMENT HEAD O O (%head.content; ) +(%head.misc;)>
It also specifies that at least one block or SCRIPT element must occur in
BODY:

<!ELEMENT BODY O O (%block;|SCRIPT )+ +(INS|DEL)>

Minus the Content-Script-Type and Content-Style-Type META elements, and
the inclusion of some content in the BODY section, the template I posted
is the *minimum* HTML that can be viewed as valid.
Here is my default template[1].

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/javascript">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/javascript">


Is that a typo? Content-Style-Type of text/javascript?


What? Smeg.

Unfortunately, that's not a typo. It's a direct copy of my template. Thank
goodness that:

1) Most browsers seem to ignore the default script type anyway,
2) I rarely use inline styles, and
3) It has only existed since I built this machine (a few weeks - the
template was correct before).

How embarassing... Thank you for pointing that out. It has been corrected.

Mike

--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #5
Michael Winter <op************ **@news-text.blueyonder .co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
As for only needing TITLE, according to the Strict DTD,
both HEAD and BODY must occur, in that order, which implies
the inclusion of the HTML element:

<!ENTITY % html.content "HEAD, BODY">
The head and body elements may be required but:-

<!ELEMENT HTML O O (%html.content; )> ^ ^
Optional opening tag |
Optional closing tag

- and the same with:-

<snip> <!ELEMENT HEAD O O (%head.content; ) +(%head.misc;)> <snip> ^ ^ <!ELEMENT BODY O O (%block;|SCRIPT )+ +(INS|DEL)>

<snip> ^ ^
But:-

<!ELEMENT TITLE - - (#PCDATA) -(%head.misc;) >
^ ^
Requires opening and closing tags for the title (but there is an SGML
shorthand, which I don't remember so won't be using here).

The transitional HTML 4 DTD allows BODY to be empty so a short valid
transitional HTML page could be the doctype declaration followed by:-

<title></title>

As the tags for all of the other required (implied?) elements are
optional (Disregarding any MATA tag stuff).

There is no way I would recommend omitting any of the optional tags.
Better for people to learn to create formally complete valid HTML first
and then when they are getting that right they can start considering
which tags are optional and can be left out. But personally I prefer to
include the optional tags anyway, it is just easier not to attempt to
remember which can be omitted.

Richard.
Jul 20 '05 #6
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:04:59 -0000, Richard Cornford
<Ri*****@litote s.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Michael Winter <op************ **@news-text.blueyonder .co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
As for only needing TITLE, according to the Strict DTD,
both HEAD and BODY must occur, in that order, which implies
the inclusion of the HTML element:

<!ENTITY % html.content "HEAD, BODY">


The head and body elements may be required but:-

<!ELEMENT HTML O O (%html.content; )>

^ ^
Optional opening tag |
Optional closing tag

- and the same with:-

<snip>
<!ELEMENT HEAD O O (%head.content; ) +(%head.misc;)>

<snip> ^ ^
<!ELEMENT BODY O O (%block;|SCRIPT )+ +(INS|DEL)>

<snip> ^ ^
But:-

<!ELEMENT TITLE - - (#PCDATA) -(%head.misc;) >
^ ^
Requires opening and closing tags for the title (but there is an SGML
shorthand, which I don't remember so won't be using here).

The transitional HTML 4 DTD allows BODY to be empty so a short valid
transitional HTML page could be the doctype declaration followed by:-

<title></title>

As the tags for all of the other required (implied?) elements are
optional (Disregarding any MATA tag stuff).

There is no way I would recommend omitting any of the optional tags.
Better for people to learn to create formally complete valid HTML first
and then when they are getting that right they can start considering
which tags are optional and can be left out. But personally I prefer to
include the optional tags anyway, it is just easier not to attempt to
remember which can be omitted.

Richard.


--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #7
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:04:59 -0000, Richard Cornford
<Ri*****@litote s.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Michael Winter <op************ **@news-text.blueyonder .co.uk> wrote:


[snip]
<!ENTITY % html.content "HEAD, BODY">


The head and body elements may be required but:-
<!ELEMENT HTML O O (%html.content; )>

^ ^
Optional opening tag |
Optional closing tag

- and the same with:-

<snip>
<!ELEMENT HEAD O O (%head.content; ) +(%head.misc;)>

<snip> ^ ^
<!ELEMENT BODY O O (%block;|SCRIPT )+ +(INS|DEL)>

<snip> ^ ^
But:-

<!ELEMENT TITLE - - (#PCDATA) -(%head.misc;) >
^ ^
Requires opening and closing tags for the title (but there is an SGML
shorthand, which I don't remember so won't be using here).


That hadn't escaped my notice, but I don't think it means what you propose
here. After all, SCRIPT elements have required opening and closing tags,
just like TITLE. That doesn't mean you must have one in every document.

What does indicate that it is required is:

1) The word "must" is written in bold when describing the presence of
TITLE in the Specification. "Must" in that sense uses the definition in
RFC2119.
2) %head.content; (TITLE and optional BASE) is required, *and* the start
and end tags are required for TITLE.

I must admit that marking the tags for the HTML, HEAD and BODY elements as
optional is a rather strange thing to do, and certainly not a practice
that should be encouraged.

What is more strange is that I rebuilt my template, starting with the
DOCTYPE, character set, and TITLE, and added the other elements until it
validated. It didn't do so until the entire template was written. When I
reversed the process before writing this reply, it did validate with just
those three elements and a DIV (for content).

I must have done something wrong last night, like not including content
until I added all the optional elements... I was tired, OK :P

Well, once again, my ideas about a technology have just been turned on its
head.

Mike

--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #8
Michael Winter <M.******@bluey onder.co.invali d> wrote in message news:<op******* *******@news-text.blueyonder .co.uk>...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:22:20 -0500, Randy Webb <hi************ @aol.com>
wrote:
Michael Winter wrote:


[snip]
That's because it *is* invalid HTML. Valid HTML documents need a
DOCTYPE declaration, a default character set (sometimes sent
<SNIP>

Can you tell me what I need to do to make it valid?
I copied your head and your doctype stuff into my code and
the validator complained that all the attributes that I am using were
invalid.It said that this is most commonly caused by using
vendor-specific attributes without setting the document type
appropriately. So what is the appropriate document type??

Here is my default template[1].

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/javascript">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/javascript">


Is that a typo? Content-Style-Type of text/javascript?


What? Smeg.

Unfortunately, that's not a typo....


Could you please post the correction??
Jul 20 '05 #9
On 27 Feb 2004 09:00:09 -0800, Saqib Ali <sy************ @yahoo.com> wrote:
Michael Winter <M.******@bluey onder.co.invali d> wrote in message
news:<op******* *******@news-text.blueyonder .co.uk>...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:22:20 -0500, Randy Webb <hi************ @aol.com>
wrote:
> Michael Winter wrote:


[snip]
>> That's because it *is* invalid HTML. Valid HTML documents need a
>> DOCTYPE declaration, a default character set (sometimes sent
<SNIP>

Can you tell me what I need to do to make it valid?
I copied your head and your doctype stuff into my code and
the validator complained that all the attributes that I am using were
invalid.It said that this is most commonly caused by using
vendor-specific attributes without setting the document type
appropriately. So what is the appropriate document type??

>> Here is my default template[1].
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
>> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
>>
>> <html>
>> <head>
>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
>> content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/javascript">
>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/javascript">
>
> Is that a typo? Content-Style-Type of text/javascript?


What? Smeg.

Unfortunately, that's not a typo....


Could you please post the correction??


--
Michael Winter
M.******@blueyo nder.co.invalid (replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply)
Jul 20 '05 #10

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