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what would be A way to go....

P: n/a
suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
I can do that in PHP, but then all work must be done on the hosters'
computer and PHP is SLOOOOOW.
Compiled stuff would be much faster, but no commercial hoster would allow
LAPACK stuff running on his machines.
In what way could java be of help ?
Are there hosters that allow my java stuff running on their machine and
serve just the calculation results back ? Or would I have them serve
applets and have the crunching AND presentation done on the client ?

Suggestions very welcome.
Nov 22 '07 #1
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P: n/a
Osiris wrote:
>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
Sure. I can think of any number of interesting types of
problems and physical simulations that would be done
with FP. Is there any particular ones you are interested
in?
>Are there hosters that allow my java stuff running on their machine and
serve just the calculation results back ?
I very much doubt it. Few servers are willing to take on
such responsibility and load just to deliver the content
back to another server.
>..Or would I have them serve
applets and have the crunching AND presentation done on the client ?
'Yes'. But I recommend a JWS launched app., rather
than applets specifically.
<http://www.physci.org/jws/#jtest>
JWS has more options, and better support from Sun.

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200711/1

Nov 22 '07 #2

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Osiris <et**@hotmail.comwrote:
>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
Specific stuff, or "give us some work, we'll do it!"?
>I can do that in PHP, but then all work must be done on the hosters'
computer and PHP is SLOOOOOW.
I'm not sure what your premise is. Aren't you talking about doing work on the
hoster's computer? If you're talking about a way to let clients do work on
their own computers, they may already have such a way, without your service...

PHP probably doesn't use whatever optimized FP methods you're trying to show
off, but it could call into some helper code for that.
>Compiled stuff would be much faster, but no commercial hoster would allow
LAPACK stuff running on his machines.
Why not? There's a lot of commercial hosters that will let you run almost
anything you want. They give you (their customer) a machine (possibly
virtual), and you can do whatever you want, including serving up processing
power to your customers.

For large amounts of distributable work, Amazon ECC may be helpful. See
http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?node=201590011
>In what way could java be of help ?
Dunno. I don't understand the goal well enough to give implementation advice.
I'd be figuring out exactly what my customers want, how much they're willing
to pay for it, then what kind of architecture works to provide it, THEN what
language I'd want to write it in.
--
Mark Rafn da***@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/>
Nov 22 '07 #3

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On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:26:20 -0800, Mark Rafn wrote:
Osiris <et**@hotmail.comwrote:
>>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.

Specific stuff, or "give us some work, we'll do it!"?
Yes, very specific stuff. Like calculating the strength of a construction,
using finite element method.
>>I can do that in PHP, but then all work must be done on the hosters'
computer and PHP is SLOOOOOW.

I'm not sure what your premise is. Aren't you talking about doing work on the
hoster's computer? If you're talking about a way to let clients do work on
their own computers, they may already have such a way, without your service...
I can use server-side PHP to do the crunching, but.... PHP is slow.

PHP probably doesn't use whatever optimized FP methods you're trying to show
off, but it could call into some helper code for that.
>>Compiled stuff would be much faster, but no commercial hoster would allow
LAPACK stuff running on his machines.

Why not? There's a lot of commercial hosters that will let you run almost
anything you want. They give you (their customer) a machine (possibly
virtual), and you can do whatever you want, including serving up processing
power to your customers.
ok, i could hire an entire machine... but that is expensive for a one-man
company...
For large amounts of distributable work, Amazon ECC may be helpful. See
http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?node=201590011
>>In what way could java be of help ?

Dunno. I don't understand the goal well enough to give implementation advice.
I'd be figuring out exactly what my customers want, how much they're willing
to pay for it, then what kind of architecture works to provide it, THEN what
language I'd want to write it in.
Nov 22 '07 #4

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On 22 Nov 2007 15:01:24 GMT, Osiris <et**@hotmail.comwrote:
>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
I can do that in PHP, but then all work must be done on the hosters'
computer and PHP is SLOOOOOW.
Compiled stuff would be much faster, but no commercial hoster would allow
LAPACK stuff running on his machines.
In what way could java be of help ?
Are there hosters that allow my java stuff running on their machine and
serve just the calculation results back ? Or would I have them serve
applets and have the crunching AND presentation done on the client ?

Suggestions very welcome.

I started using C# a couple of years ago and never looked back, simply
because it does everything I need. You can crunch numbers very
efficiently inside a regular class library, which you can access from
a web page, smart client application, Silverlight application, etc.
all of which are written in the same language, and the same IDE (which
is the best IDE I've ever used, BTW).
Nov 22 '07 #5

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Osiris wrote:
suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
I can do that in PHP, but then all work must be done on the hosters'
computer and PHP is SLOOOOOW.
Compiled stuff would be much faster, but no commercial hoster would allow
LAPACK stuff running on his machines.
In what way could java be of help ?
Are there hosters that allow my java stuff running on their machine and
serve just the calculation results back ? Or would I have them serve
applets and have the crunching AND presentation done on the client ?

Suggestions very welcome.
You could have an applet do the hard work on the client side and then
inform the server when it is done.

Java Applets and the web page it is embedded in work very well together.
Applets can call JavaScript methods (if the MAYSCRIPT parameter has been
added to the applet-tag), and JavaScript functions can call public
methods on the Applet. At my work we use this extensively to let an
applet handle chat events and then let JavaScript display the result of
the events and such. This works extremely well. You could also just
inform the server by calling an URL from the applet and submitting the
result as content:
http://mydomain/result.php?firstresu...econdresult=34
Nov 23 '07 #6

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Robert Larsen wrote:
...
>Java Applets and the web page it is embedded in work very well together.
No, they don't. Applets and browsers are a 'problematic
and unhappy mix'*. Every other month/week produces yet
another odd bug.

* <http://www.google.com/search?as_q=applet&as_sitesearch=bugs.sun.com>
(around 3300 hits - of bugs that are entirely(?) beyond any
that affect either apps., or JWS launched applets) .

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200711/1

Nov 23 '07 #7

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Fish Rock wrote:
>>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
Suggestions very welcome.

I started using C# a couple of years ago and never looked back, simply
because it does everything I need. You can crunch numbers very
efficiently inside a regular class library, which you can access from
a web page, ...
Where?

For example, here is (approximately, at time of check)
59,400 examples of webstart launched, Java based,
applications.
<http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_filetype=jnlp>
Where (at what/any URL) can I see/test a 'C#/web based'
application?

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200711/1

Nov 23 '07 #8

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On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:25:05 GMT, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe>
wrote:
>Fish Rock wrote:
>>>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>>
Suggestions very welcome.

I started using C# a couple of years ago and never looked back, simply
because it does everything I need. You can crunch numbers very
efficiently inside a regular class library, which you can access from
a web page, ...

Where?

For example, here is (approximately, at time of check)
59,400 examples of webstart launched, Java based,
applications.
<http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_filetype=jnlp>
Where (at what/any URL) can I see/test a 'C#/web based'
application?

Your link doesn't work (like most of the java apps I've used), but if
you want the free version of the development environment, you can get
it from MS:

http://www.microsoft.com/express/vcsharp/
If you are looking for losts of open source projects, tutorials and
such, you might try these here:

http://www.codeproject.com/

http://www.codeplex.com/
Although I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "see/test a
C#/web based application".

If you want to be a tester of other folks' web pages, it generally
doesn't matter what language what the page was written in.

If you want to be a developer of web applications, it is better to
look at the source code of other people's work than the end-user
result.

I couldn't determine which one you were asking for here.

If you're looking for little sample apps that showcase animation and
things like that, your best bet is to look at Silverlight (which is
actually XAML, but everything you can do in XAML declaratively you can
also do in C# programmatically) -- its just nice to know both
http://silverlight.net/community/gal...ail.aspx?cat=3

http://silverlight.net/community/gal...ail.aspx?cat=4
Maybe if you're more specific in your request I could suggest some
sites.

Nov 23 '07 #9

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Fish Rock wrote:
>>>>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>Where (at what/any URL) can I see/test a 'C#/web based'
application?

Your link doesn't work...
To repeat that link.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_filetype=jnlp
(like most of the java apps I've used),
There was no java in the initial page.
...you browser cannot bring up *google* ?

Perhaps you need to change browsers.
>...but if
you want the free version of the development environment, you can get
it from MS:
If you want a free version of the SDK, you can get it
from Sun, and it is available for non Windows machines
as well (please don't go quoting that 'Mono' project as
being viable for ..anything).

...
>If you are looking for losts of open source projects, tutorials and
such, ...
No.
>Although I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "see/test a
C#/web based application".

If you want to be a tester of other folks' web pages,
Yes. Pursuant to your claim..
"..which you can access from a web page"
>..it generally
doesn't matter what language what the page was written in.

If you want to be a developer of web applications, it is better to
look at the source code of other people's work than the end-user
result.
So you cannot link to so much as a single web
based C# app.? Or are you just avoiding the
question so as to hopefully avoid the chorus of
replies that it 'does not work here'?
...
>If you're looking for little sample apps that showcase animation and
things like that, your best bet is to look at Silverlight ...
Is that a browser? I want to see these projects working
in a browser.
>Maybe if you're more specific in your request I could suggest some
sites.
I am asking where, using my (or any) browser, I might
be able to see these C# apps. that run *in* *a* *browser?*

What URLs (/Google search) will produce them?

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200711/1

Nov 24 '07 #10

P: n/a
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:22:02 GMT, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe>
wrote:
>Fish Rock wrote:
>>>>>suppose I wanted to make availble on the WWW a facility to do some rather
>floating-point-calculation-intensive stuff.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>>Where (at what/any URL) can I see/test a 'C#/web based'
application?

Your link doesn't work...

To repeat that link.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_filetype=jnlp
> (like most of the java apps I've used),

There was no java in the initial page.
..you browser cannot bring up *google* ?

Perhaps you need to change browsers.
Of course I can hit the google page, but that's just a bunch of links
and doesnt necessarily let me "test" (unless your definition of
testing means to play the end user role and browse around a page). It
seemed to be you're trying to present some sort of master directory of
java web sites. All you did is post a lame link to a file type.

If I leave the file type to jnlp, I get about 60,000 hits, so to
answer your question based on your own rather lame search criteria, I
would say change jnlp to aspx in your query and watch the number jump
from 60,000 to over 450,000.

>So you cannot link to so much as a single web
based C# app.? Or are you just avoiding the
question so as to hopefully avoid the chorus of
replies that it 'does not work here'?
You now have close to half a million to masturbate over for the next
couple of decades. Enjoy.
>>If you're looking for little sample apps that showcase animation and
things like that, your best bet is to look at Silverlight ...

Is that a browser? I want to see these projects working
in a browser.
Silverlight works in any browser. You obviously aren't interested
enough in any technology other than what you already know (typical of
java developers) to spend a couple of minutes to actually read the
information that is right there in your face.
>
>>Maybe if you're more specific in your request I could suggest some
sites.

I am asking where, using my (or any) browser, I might
be able to see these C# apps. that run *in* *a* *browser?*

What URLs (/Google search) will produce them?
Duhhhhhh......
Nov 24 '07 #11

P: n/a
You could have an applet do the hard work on the client side and then
inform the server when it is done.
SO I could have the entire computation (like matrix inversion and equation
solver) be done client-side ?

Would my software (copyrighted by me) still be protected (useable only
through my server) ?
I don't want to *give* away my work. The idea is that people pay me for
the number crunching service...
Nov 24 '07 #12

P: n/a
Fish Rock wrote:
If I leave the file type to jnlp, I get about 60,000 hits, so to
answer your question based on your own rather lame search criteria, I
would say change jnlp to aspx in your query and watch the number jump
from 60,000 to over 450,000.
>So you cannot link to so much as a single web
based C# app.? Or are you just avoiding the
question so as to hopefully avoid the chorus of
replies that it 'does not work here'?

You now have close to half a million to masturbate over for the next
couple of decades. Enjoy.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that .aspx pages are
server-side applications, much like .jsp or .php pages. JNLP, on the
other hand, runs entirely on the client, and it was this feature that
Andrew was looking for. I am also unsure as to whether or not *all*
..aspx pages are C# and not, say, Visual Basic or some other .NET component.

--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Nov 24 '07 #13

P: n/a
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:58:57 GMT, Joshua Cranmer
<Pi*******@verizon.invalidwrote:
>Fish Rock wrote:
>If I leave the file type to jnlp, I get about 60,000 hits, so to
answer your question based on your own rather lame search criteria, I
would say change jnlp to aspx in your query and watch the number jump
from 60,000 to over 450,000.
>>So you cannot link to so much as a single web
based C# app.? Or are you just avoiding the
question so as to hopefully avoid the chorus of
replies that it 'does not work here'?

You now have close to half a million to masturbate over for the next
couple of decades. Enjoy.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that .aspx pages are
server-side applications, much like .jsp or .php pages. JNLP, on the
other hand, runs entirely on the client, and it was this feature that
Andrew was looking for. I am also unsure as to whether or not *all*
.aspx pages are C# and not, say, Visual Basic or some other .NET component.

Then he needs to be more specific. Ambiguous specifications are the
downfall of software engineering.

And, in my first reply I directed him to some Silverlight stuff, but
he apparently didn't care to look into it, which runs on the client on
all browsers.

I'm not going to spoon feed people information.. I'll make a
reasonable effort to answer a question if I think it's genuine, but
once I see someone acting like a snotty little bitch I tend to smack
em down and just move on.
Nov 24 '07 #14

P: n/a
Fish Rock wrote:
...
>...in my first reply I directed him to some Silverlight stuff, but
he apparently didn't care to look into it,
I 'looked into it' about as deeply as you seemed to 'look into'
JNLP. My conclusion when you said they did not work for you,
is that either
a) You did not have the Java plug-in installed, which made
most of the (seemingly) comparative comments in your first
post irrelevant.
..or.
b) You had not bothered to click any of the links.
>...which runs on the client on
all browsers.
<dws>Lynx?</dws*

* No, Java doesn't run on Lynx either, but it seems the height
of ignorance to say *anything* runs 'on all browsers'.

Oh and - still waiting for any link to a Silverlight application.

( Yeah go on, use more insults - we expect it, in the absence
of any actual logic. ;)

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...neral/200711/1

Nov 24 '07 #15

P: n/a
phew.... and all this because of me asking directions.....
Nov 24 '07 #16

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Osiris wrote:
>phew.... and all this because of me asking directions.....
This is a discussion forum. ;-)

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
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Nov 25 '07 #17

P: n/a
Osiris wrote:
>You could have an applet do the hard work on the client side and then
inform the server when it is done.

SO I could have the entire computation (like matrix inversion and equation
solver) be done client-side ?
I do not see any reason why not*. Java is a 'turing complete'
language, but.. **

* Barring any impracticalities that might be involved in moving
a 50 Gb dataset from the server, into the (client-side) program.
>Would my software (copyrighted by me) still be protected (useable only
through my server) ?
Probably not. Their are a number of techniques that can
be used to encourage people to use an unaltered version of
the software, but even with code obfuscation and 'checks
back to the server' you will not get complete protection.

If some 'high value' peice of software is released that others
want to replicate, it is often easier to make a copy by getting
two teams of people. The first team sits in front of copies of
the progam, and describes the inputs and outputs (which
should be realatively easy with well known mathematical
constructs) then that spec. is handed to the other team to
'program that'.
>I don't want to *give* away my work. The idea is that people pay me for
the number crunching service...
** Why would they want to pay you for 'number crunching'
as opposed to 'software', when it is their own hardware
doing that number crunching?

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via http://www.javakb.com

Nov 25 '07 #18

P: n/a
Osiris wrote:
>..
2) 'You have to spend money, to make money'.

People would pay me for the knowledge I incorporated in the program.
I'd have to spend SOME money to make money... not too much...
quote James Abbott Mc Neill Whistler (1834-1903), when asked "for 2 days'
labour you ask 200 guineas ?": 'No I ask it for the knowledge of a
lifetime'.
That is a good quote. I actually like it a lot better than
the words I quoted. (Even when I posted that quote, I
felt dirty doing so - being a firm beleiver in the value of
knowledge and experience.)
>thnx for the input. :-)
Hope the venture goes well for you. :-)

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

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Nov 27 '07 #19

P: n/a
Osiris wrote:
I don't want to give away my work. The idea is that people pay me for
the number crunching service...
An enterprising soul can decompile your bytecode very easily. A number of
decompilers exist, such as this one: http://jode.sourceforge.net/ (see also
http://freshports.org/java/jode). The copyright will still protect you
legally, of course, but look at how much this protection is helping RIAA
and MPAA.

You may be able to compile Java source into machine code (for different OSes
and CPUs), but then it will not run inside browsers :(

I think, Sun and Amazon are offering application-hosting solutions, which
you may find affordable...

Or you may pay a regular hosting provider for a /dedicated/ server, where
you will be able to install/run anything you please (LAPACK, etc.) without
affecting their other customers. Some of those companies would even take
your own computer (which you'll configure and test beforehand).

It is still very tempting to take advantage of the user's own PCs. Can your
software be logically broken-up into the front- and back-ends? If it can,
and you don't mind the front-end code being decompiled, you may be able to
devise a hybrid approach...

-mi
Dec 12 '07 #20

P: n/a
Mikhail Teterin wrote:
Osiris wrote:
>I don't want to give away my work. The idea is that people pay me for
the number crunching service...

An enterprising soul can decompile your bytecode very easily. A number of
decompilers exist, such as this one: http://jode.sourceforge.net/ (see also
http://freshports.org/java/jode). The copyright will still protect you
legally, of course, but look at how much this protection is helping RIAA
and MPAA.
Bytecode obfuscators make this a fairly complicated task. I've used this
one for many years: http://www.zelix.com/klassmaster/index.html

It does one hell of a job making your code look like crap so reverse
engineering it is a difficult (thou not impossible) job.
Dec 14 '07 #21

P: n/a
Robert Larsen wrote:
It does one hell of a job making your code look like crap so reverse
engineering it is a difficult (thou not impossible) job.
All (and I do mean all) obfuscation I've seen would be pretty trivial to
break: String encryption and flow obfuscation can be removed with a
highly ambitious optimizer doing /only/ constant propagation and dead
code elimination; besides, the inability to reproduce optimized flow
graphs is merely the fault of the decompiler for assuming that all code
comes from the Sun javac compiler.

Name obfuscation, of course, is a minor obstacle only easily overcome
with refactoring.

--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Dec 14 '07 #22

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