Seeking very user-friendly, drag-and-drop GUI design tool.

[Steven O.]

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs.
www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

[Hal Rosser]

Java is still tuff. Netbeans or Eclipse are the IDEs to try. both are free
www.netbeans.org or www.eclipse.org
nothings as easy as vb6
"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs. www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 9/6/2004

[Alex Molochnikov]

I am not sure what type of application you want to prototype, but if it is
something that needs to interact with a database, have a look at STEP
FORWARD from www.gestalt.com. Explorer Edition is free, and there are video
clips to give you an idea of what it looks like before you d/l and install
it.

Alex Molochnikov
Gestalt Corporation

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs. www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

[Randy Howard]

In article <vd********************************@4ax.com>, nu**@null.com says...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

QT Designer (and all the goodies that go with) is quite easy to use,
and has the advantage of being cross-platform portable to Windows,
Linux, UNIX and MacOS X. It's also free unless you want to use it
for commercial code in which there is a license fee. www.trolltech.com.
--
Randy Howard
To reply, remove FOOBAR.

[Anindo Ghosh]

You can try using the free NetBeans IDE. Download NetBeans IDE 3.6 (or
4.0 beta 1 if you want) from www.netbeans.org.
Regards,
Anindo Ghosh

Steven O. <nu**@null.com> wrote in message news:<vd********************************@4ax.com>. ..

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs.
www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

[Adrian]

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping.

Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionary
step further.

[Gerry Quinn]

In article <vd********************************@4ax.com>, nu**@null.com
says...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Have you tried MSVC? Certainly dropping controls on a dialog and
linking code to them is easy enough.

- Gerry Quinn

[Karl Tauber]

Hi Steven,

if you want a really easy-to-use and powerfull Java GUI designer, take a
look at JFormDesigner. It is much easier to use than the GUI designers in
Netbeans, JBuilder, etc. and you don't need deep knowledge of GridBagLayout.
JFormDesigner is ideal for GUI prototyping because you don't need a huge and
complicated IDE to use it.

Take a look at the online demo of JFormDesigner at www.jformdesigner.com.

Best regards,
Karl

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com.. .

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping.

Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionary
step further.

LOL. That isn't even Microsoft's view, they are spending both time and
money on getting an ECMA standard for a number of extensions to C++ so
that it will be easier to use as .NET authoring language. The main
reason for that effort is that their technical people believe that C++
is essentially a more powerful general purpose language.

There are a number of nice features in C# but I understand that it is
primarily MS's candidate for replacing VB with an ISO Standard language
(note C# is an ISO standard language)
--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[Jonathan Neve]

Steven O. <nu**@null.com> wrote in message news:<vd********************************@4ax.com>. ..

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed? For C++, there is (was?) Borland C++Builder. Actually, this is what we
use for all our development projects, and we are very satisfied.
However, this product is being discontinued...

As for Java, I don't know of anything on par with VB, nor Borland
Delphi. There are a few good opensource IDEs, but none are even
remotely as visual nor as user-friendly as VB or Delphi. Hopefully
this will change. I'm starting an opensource project to fill this gap,
you can have a look at my project page at jdelphi.dev.java.net.
Unfortunately, this project is still in the conceptive stages, and no
actual code has been written as yet. Since it is a rather ambitious
project, I'm trying to get some more people interested in helping me
with it...

Having said that, there is one tool I'm aware of (in fact I'm planning
to base my JDelphi IDE on this tool), called AbaGuiBuilder. It's not
really an IDE, neither is it anywhere near as advanced as VB nor
Delphi, but it has made a significant step in the right direction.
It's hosted on sourceforge.net, if you want to take a look.
I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

I'm personnaly not very impressed with the GUI designer in JBuilder.
The IDE as a whole strikes me as a bit flickery, and not too
enjoyable, but the GUI designer is particularly so. But why not
download it and try it for yourself?

Regards,
Jonathan Neve.

[Alwyn]

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping.

Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionary
step further.

An interesting point of view. It's like saying that C++ takes C one
evolutionary step further. But it isn't true: C++ is a wholly new
language, though shackled with some of the anachronisms of C. C# is
similarly an improvement on Java but still shackled with some of its
anachronisms.

Now, for a really interesting .NET language, I suggest people should
take a look at F#.
<http://research.microsoft.com/projects/ilx/fsharp.aspx>
Alwyn

[David Segall]

Steven O. <nu**@null.com> wrote:

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed? No, but that is mainly because Visual Basic has almost no run-time
layout management. It is easy to show the fixed layout in the VB IDE
but you pay for it when the user resizes the form at run-time.
Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. You may find it easier to design the forms in a program designed only
for that purpose and which is not a complete IDE. I don't know
anything about them but there a several available and most of them
produce some output that can be used directly by a programmer in the
IDE of their choice. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), Sun tools are based on NetBeans (www.netbeans.org) which is free and
open source. It has an excellent drag and drop GUI builder. You can
still get an old edition of Sun One free at
http://jsecom16d.sun.com/ECom/EComAc...MLoadBalanced=
but it would only be useful if you wanted to take advantage of Sun's
free web based training. There would be very little extra to learn to
upgrade from Sun One to the latest NetBeans. and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is? If you are used to Visual Basic then I think that you will find
JBuilder the easiest transition of the unrestricted, free IDE's.
Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs.
www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

[Corey Murtagh]

Steven O. wrote:

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

Try Borland Delphi or Borland C++ Builder. They used to do a Personal
Edition that you could download and use for free... couldn't add any
third-party components to it, couldn't run programs outside the IDE,
etc. but good for getting an idea about the whole thing.

If you're willing to go to Java there are a few free IDEs that might be
useful, but I don't know if any of them come with a GUI designer.
Perhaps one of the friendly Java people could assist with that.

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur!"

[Thomas Kellerer]

On 12.09.2004 22:28 Corey Murtagh wrote:

If you're willing to go to Java there are a few free IDEs that might be
useful, but I don't know if any of them come with a GUI designer.
Perhaps one of the friendly Java people could assist with that.

NetBeans comes with a GUI designer and Eclipse has one in pre-relase state (AFAIK)

Thomas

[gswork]

Corey Murtagh <em***@slingshot.no.uce> wrote in message news:<1095102642.901780@ftpsrv1>...

Steven O. wrote:

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.
Try Borland Delphi or Borland C++ Builder. They used to do a Personal
Edition that you could download and use for free... couldn't add any
third-party components to it, couldn't run programs outside the IDE,
etc. but good for getting an idea about the whole thing.

I don't think Delphi 6 PE is really crippled in any way. it can
produce an .exe and can use components. it just lacks some of the
features (and VCL extras) that come with pro versions, and the license
to produce for-sale software. i don't think it's available now though.
D7 did the rounds on the cover-cd of a limited number of computer
magazines a couple of years ago too.
If you're willing to go to Java there are a few free IDEs that might be
useful, but I don't know if any of them come with a GUI designer.
Perhaps one of the friendly Java people could assist with that.

i think netbeans does this.

[Adrian]

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:130920041428190982%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping.
Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionary step further.

An interesting point of view. It's like saying that C++ takes C one
evolutionary step further. But it isn't true: C++ is a wholly new
language,

<Snips>
Alwyn

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

[Adrian]

"Francis Glassborow" <fr*****@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0g**************@robinton.demon.co.uk...

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com.. .

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping.

Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionarystep further.

LOL. That isn't even Microsoft's view, they are spending both time and
money on getting an ECMA standard for a number of extensions to C++ so
that it will be easier to use as .NET authoring language. The main
reason for that effort is that their technical people believe that C++
is essentially a more powerful general purpose language.

When you study C++.NET, it is like a hybrid between C++ and C#. If you
look at the support for both languages (C++.NET and C#.NET) you will
find that C++.NET is very much less supported by MSDN, making it quite
difficult to work with at times.

It is a pity that this ng is so doggedly fixated on C and C++ and doesn't
also
include C# in it's scope. There are some very intersting comparisons to make
between C++ and C# which would deepen the understanding of both C++
and C#.

It seems to me that this ng is sociologically a tgihtly knit group, with all
the
consequences of that, like many rules and outgroup-depreciation, thereby
myopically losing sight of both the splendours and shortcomings of C++.

(What on earth is LOL? A lolly without a Ly? So a ly is a stick ? A lipop
lady?)

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <89***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

When that book was written there wasn't even a Standard C. I think that
what was written 20 years ago has, in this case, little real value as
evidence of anything other than that things change.
--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[Alwyn]

In article <89***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:130920041428190982%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one evolutionary step further.

An interesting point of view. It's like saying that C++ takes C one
evolutionary step further. But it isn't true: C++ is a wholly new
language,

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

Did he say that? I think the original C with Classes may have been a
superset of C, as is indeed also Objective-C, but I very much doubt
that C++ was that even then. Since then, of course, C++ has moved even
further away from its parent - some would say too far.

In the meantime, C has been pursuing its own evolution, sometimes in
the same direction as C++, sometimes away from it.

But to come back to your original statement, I would still maintain
that C# is derived from Java and has little to do with C++, apart from
certain syntactical similarities - I suppose a Chomskyan might call
that 'surface structure'. I don't know an awful lot about .NET, but I
see no reason why C# and C++ cannot peacefully coexist within it, each
doing what it does best. In the case of C++, I imagine that would be
the lower-level stuff, the 'glue' if you like, and maybe also
applications where performance is of the essence.
Alwyn

[Adrian]

"Francis Glassborow" <fr*****@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MN**************@robinton.demon.co.uk...

In article <89***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

When that book was written there wasn't even a Standard C. I think that
what was written 20 years ago has, in this case, little real value as
evidence of anything other than that things change.
--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions:

http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

Oh dear.

[Adrian]

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:140920041303157454%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <89***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:130920041428190982%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <e9***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> Use C# and solve your C++ limitation problems. It takes C++ one

evolutionary

> step further.

An interesting point of view. It's like saying that C++ takes C one
evolutionary step further. But it isn't true: C++ is a wholly new
language,

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

Did he say that? I think the original C with Classes may have been a
superset of C, as is indeed also Objective-C, but I very much doubt
that C++ was that even then. Since then, of course, C++ has moved even
further away from its parent - some would say too far.

In the meantime, C has been pursuing its own evolution, sometimes in
the same direction as C++, sometimes away from it.

But to come back to your original statement, I would still maintain
that C# is derived from Java and has little to do with C++, apart from
certain syntactical similarities - I suppose a Chomskyan might call
that 'surface structure'. I don't know an awful lot about .NET, but I
see no reason why C# and C++ cannot peacefully coexist within it, each
doing what it does best. In the case of C++, I imagine that would be
the lower-level stuff, the 'glue' if you like, and maybe also
applications where performance is of the essence.
Alwyn

Hi Alwyn,

You seem te be well informed. As you will also know C++.NET (which
I wouldn't advise anybody to use) and C# can be used side by side. So
indeed both can be used for what they can do best.

Regards,
Adrian.

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <7a*************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

Oh dear.

If you are referring to the loss of the use of the CSS when viewed with
browsers such as Mozilla, that typo is being fixed (because someone
actually drew my attention to it -- the pages display fine in the
browsers I tested and no one can test on all.
--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[Alwyn]

In article <66**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:

As you will also know C++.NET (which
I wouldn't advise anybody to use) and C# can be used side by side.

This is not the first time I have heard bad things said about C++.NET.
Myself, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the
other, but I do hope it will improve over time. I'm no fan of
Microsoft, but their .NET initiative is an interesting development
which may shape the future history of computing.
Alwyn

[Alwyn]

In article <45**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:

It seems to me that this ng is sociologically a tgihtly knit group, with all
the
consequences of that, like many rules and outgroup-depreciation, thereby
myopically losing sight of both the splendours and shortcomings of C++.
Well, it's about learning C and C++, though I maintain that these are
now quite different languages. However, some commonality remains, which
I am inclined to fight for. I find that the intellectual level here is
generally higher than in many similar newsgroups.

As far as I'm concerned, Objective-C is also on-topic here, as it is
standard C with a minimalist, orthogonal object-oriented extension.
(This would be a far better forum for it than the current
<news:comp.lang.objective-c>, which has a resident troll who is also
the FAQ maintainter.) However, I have yet to encounter a question here
about this language.

In my opinion, though, C# would take us too far afield. Both C# and
Java have plenty of newsgroups to serve them. What more could you want?
(What on earth is LOL? A lolly without a Ly? So a ly is a stick ? A lipop
lady?)

Hehehe, I was told it meant: Laughed Out Loud!
Alwyn

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <14***************************@mac.com.invalid>, Alwyn
<dt********@mac.com.invalid> writes

Well, it's about learning C and C++, though I maintain that these are
now quite different languages. However, some commonality remains, which
I am inclined to fight for.
As are WG21 and WG14 the two ISO groups who are responsible for the C++
and C Standards respectively. Even to the extent of finding creative
ways to work together.
I find that the intellectual level here is
generally higher than in many similar newsgroups.

Well its high enough so that I I do not have to run a kill file on it
:-)


--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[Adrian]

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:140920041714598441%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <45**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:

Hi Alwyn,

Re C(++) and C# being compared for know-why reasons
and me wondering why this NG doesn't embrace C#.

I thought that it would be interesting to hear some of these
brilliant C(++) minds make a few comparisons. I don't know
Java, but I understand that you do, and that C# is closer to
Java, well my idea wasn't much good then.

Adrian.

[Adrian]

"Francis Glassborow" <fr*****@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:I$**************@robinton.demon.co.uk...

In article <14***************************@mac.com.invalid>, Alwyn
<dt********@mac.com.invalid> writes

Well, it's about learning C and C++, though I maintain that these are
now quite different languages. However, some commonality remains, which
I am inclined to fight for.

As are WG21 and WG14 the two ISO groups who are responsible for the C++
and C Standards respectively. Even to the extent of finding creative
ways to work together.

I find that the intellectual level here is
generally higher than in many similar newsgroups.

Well its high enough so that I I do not have to run a kill file on it
:-)

What the heck is a kill file, is that a LOL machine gun?

[Alwyn]

In article <15**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:

Re C(++) and C# being compared for know-why reasons
and me wondering why this NG doesn't embrace C#.

I thought that it would be interesting to hear some of these
brilliant C(++) minds make a few comparisons.
Like those on this page?
<http://genamics.com/developer/csharp_comparative.htm>
Or here?http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2000/jw-1122-csharp1.html> I don't know
Java, but I understand that you do, and that C# is closer to
Java, well my idea wasn't much good then.

I only know Java a little bit; I mean, I've never done any serious
programming in it. A colleague of mine with a Lisp background found
using Java a liberation after grappling with C++. He might well say the
same of C#.

As for C#'s relationship to C++, it has in my opinion suited
Microsoft's marketing purposes to make this sound more substantial than
it really is and to downplay the language's Java heritage.
Alwyn

[Adrian]

"Alwyn" <dt********@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:140920042345162599%dt********@mac.com.invalid ...

In article <15**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:

Re C(++) and C# being compared for know-why reasons
and me wondering why this NG doesn't embrace C#.

I thought that it would be interesting to hear some of these
brilliant C(++) minds make a few comparisons.

Like those on this page?
<http://genamics.com/developer/csharp_comparative.htm>
Or here?

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2000/jw-1122-csharp1.html>

I don't know
Java, but I understand that you do, and that C# is closer to
Java, well my idea wasn't much good then.

I only know Java a little bit; I mean, I've never done any serious
programming in it. A colleague of mine with a Lisp background found
using Java a liberation after grappling with C++. He might well say the
same of C#.

As for C#'s relationship to C++, it has in my opinion suited
Microsoft's marketing purposes to make this sound more substantial than
it really is and to downplay the language's Java heritage.
Alwyn

The trouble is that one has to invest a heck of a lot of time in a
each language, to be able to chose. I went from C to C++ and on
to C#. I saw in a recent publication that Microsoft is doing away
with its managed stuff in its Visual C++.NET, that would be a
welcome step forward.

[Alwyn]

In article <3a***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian
<[e-mail]> wrote:

The trouble is that one has to invest a heck of a lot of time in a
each language, to be able to chose.
Ease of learning seems to me to be a very weak point of C++, and that's
why I advise people to learn to program in another language first. But
at least it gives you the chance to write at a somewhat higher level
than C.
I went from C to C++ and on to C#.
Oh, they started us on Pascal, which was the principal academic
language in those days, though it was never particularly well suited as
a teaching medium for the usual university syllabus. Java has taken
that place now, especially on the less mathematically-oriented courses,
but I still feel that the basics are easiest to learn with the help of
a functional language. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to
learn C as a first programming language, though some of the postings on
this newsgroup give me some idea.
I saw in a recent publication that Microsoft is doing away
with its managed stuff in its Visual C++.NET, that would be a
welcome step forward.

Is that so? Why would it be welcome?
Alwyn

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <3a***************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
writes

The trouble is that one has to invest a heck of a lot of time in a
each language, to be able to chose. I went from C to C++ and on
to C#. I saw in a recent publication that Microsoft is doing away
with its managed stuff in its Visual C++.NET, that would be a
welcome step forward.

'Doing away' is not the term that I would have used. Microsoft are in
the process of working with ECMA to provide an extended version of C++
(called C++/CLI) that will replace Managed C++.
--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[G. S. Hayes]

"Adrian" <[e-mail]> wrote in message news:<89***************************@freeler.nl>...
[SNIP]

Alwyn wrote:

An interesting point of view. It's like saying that C++ takes C one
evolutionary step further. But it isn't true: C++ is a wholly new
language,

That is not what Stroustrup said. See his Preface
to the First Edition. He calls it a "superset" of C :)

That's not really true; there are plenty of valid C programs that are
invalid C++ programs (without even being intentionally obtuse--the
_preferred_ way of writing some programs in C won't compile at all in
C++), and there are plenty of cases where the same program will
compile in both C and C++ but behave quite differently. (Assuming C++
and C to mean "ANSI C++" and "ANSI C89"; if you include C99 in the mix
things get even more disjoint).

It's also not really a useful statement and is somewhat misleading
since it seems to make a value judgement that C++ is better than C
because it has more features. Not all features are necessarily
beneficial, and indeed one of the biggest complaints some people have
about C++ is that the language itself is "too big" in ways that
encourage writing bad code. (which is something of the same argument
as the Perl "More than one way to do it" philosophy vs. the Python
"There should be exactly one obvious way to do it" philosophy.)

And in reality, adding features like those in C++ does make it a
different language. People writing in C++ tend to attack problems
differently than people writing in C. Of course it is possible to
write C-style programs in C++, but you can also do so in Java.

[da Vinci]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:45:23 +0100, Alwyn <dt********@mac.com.invalid>
wrote:

In article <66**************************@freeler.nl>, Adrian <[e-mail]>
wrote:
This is not the first time I have heard bad things said about C++.NET.
Myself, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the
other, but I do hope it will improve over time. I'm no fan of
Microsoft, but their .NET initiative is an interesting development
which may shape the future history of computing.
Alwyn

Alwyn,

As a reference for you... the college I attend has switched over to
teaching VB.NET but continues to teach C++ 6.0. I asked why that was
and the professor had nothing nice to say about C++.NET. I also
noticed that they are starting a C# class, but they are keeping
C++.NET.

I have C++ 6.0 experiance and am currently studying Java. As to which
one I like better, no idea yet. I am REALLY enjoying Java though. More
than I did when I started C++ or Pascal (in the old days). LOL

[Francis Glassborow]

In article <1f********************************@4ax.com>, da Vinci
<bl***@blank.com> writes

Alwyn,

As a reference for you... the college I attend has switched over to
teaching VB.NET but continues to teach C++ 6.0. I asked why that was
and the professor had nothing nice to say about C++.NET. I also
noticed that they are starting a C# class, but they are keeping
C++.NET.

And exactly what is wrong with actually teaching C++ with a compiler
that is close to conforming (such as VC++ 7.1) rather than using an
ancient (pre release of standard) C++ compiler.

--
Francis Glassborow ACCU
Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit
For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects

[Tabrez Iqbal]

Francis Glassborow <fr*****@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<O2**************@robinton.demon.co.uk>...

In article <1f********************************@4ax.com>, da Vinci
<bl***@blank.com> writes

Alwyn,

As a reference for you... the college I attend has switched over to
teaching VB.NET but continues to teach C++ 6.0. I asked why that was
and the professor had nothing nice to say about C++.NET. I also
noticed that they are starting a C# class, but they are keeping
C++.NET.

And exactly what is wrong with actually teaching C++ with a compiler
that is close to conforming (such as VC++ 7.1) rather than using an
ancient (pre release of standard) C++ compiler.

to better appreciate the role of C++.NET(C++/CLI) in .NET family of
languages, follow Stanley Lippman's blog:

http://blogs.msdn.com/slippman
(murray's book(C++.NET) is also a good source)

tabrez

[Tabrez Iqbal]

Francis Glassborow <fr*****@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<O2**************@robinton.demon.co.uk>...

In article <1f********************************@4ax.com>, da Vinci
<bl***@blank.com> writes

Alwyn,

As a reference for you... the college I attend has switched over to
teaching VB.NET but continues to teach C++ 6.0. I asked why that was
and the professor had nothing nice to say about C++.NET. I also
noticed that they are starting a C# class, but they are keeping
C++.NET.

And exactly what is wrong with actually teaching C++ with a compiler
that is close to conforming (such as VC++ 7.1) rather than using an
ancient (pre release of standard) C++ compiler.

the previous post was for da vinci.

tabrez

[CBFalconer]

Tabrez Iqbal wrote:

.... snip ...
the previous post was for da vinci.

Nonsense. This is a newsgroup, and all posts are for all.
Private communications belong in email.

--
"This is a wonderful answer. It's off-topic, it's incorrect,
and it doesn't answer the question." -- Richard Heathfield

"I support the Red Sox and any team that beats the Yankees"

[Tabrez Iqbal]

CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<41***************@yahoo.com>...

Tabrez Iqbal wrote:

... snip ...

the previous post was for da vinci.

Nonsense. This is a newsgroup, and all posts are for all.
Private communications belong in email.

"for" should have been "in response to". i mistakenly replied to
francis' post instead of da vinci's.

tabrez

[Programmer Dude]

Adrian writes:

I thought that it would be interesting to hear some of these
brilliant C(++) minds make a few comparisons. I don't know
Java, but I understand that you do, and that C# is closer to
Java, well my idea wasn't much good then.

C#, AIUI, is Microsoft's (second) answer to Java.

[JonnyD]

Steven, look at IAB Studio from www.worcsnet.com; this is the best
tool I know for rapid development of rich internet applications;
basically you use drag and drop editors, which create web applications
right in your browser - that's all you need as far as IDE is
concerned. The web applications this tool creates are as powerful as
desktop ones, and you do not have to have web development skills. It
is an ideal tool for prototyping as well. Give it a try, I think it
will come handy in your case. It's free for personal use as well. They
have a demo application at www.iabstudio.com as well; it's quite
impressive.

Regards,
John
Steven O. <nu**@null.com> wrote in message news:<vd********************************@4ax.com>. ..

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is the Best Match for a high school student's needs.
www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com

[RIA Builder]

You do not have to worry about learning Java to develop complex
applications.

Check out a new way of the development Web applications…

Recently WorcsNet announced a new release of its IAB Studio 3.1.
IAB Studio is a platform for rapid development of Rich Internet
Applications. This product is now available for download.

Web Applications built with IAB Studio utilize the power of the client
workstation and have desktop-like functional capabilities and
excellent performance. It is the only solution on the market, which
allows creating sophisticated RIA applications quickly in a matter of
days, not even weeks. IAB Studio requires minimum development skills
and reduces the average project developing time up to 80% compared to
other tools, such as .NET or MacroMedia Flex.

IAB Studio basis on in-browser development environment and includes
page/html editors, team organizer, project organizer, instant
messenger, data entry automation module, Object Oriented JS client
side controls, native version control, built in Reporting Suite and
Workflow Suite. It does not have ActiveX controls or applets, and yet
it is as powerful as desktop development tools.

[Clancy]

Hi,
I'm using RAD environment for internet application development called
IAB Studio from Worcsnet.
Quite impressive tool. I like its data entry wizards, reporting suite
and many other features.
It is really easy and straight forward to use.

[Thomas Smith]

Eclipse is an awesome IDE and has a nifty plugin called VEP that is a nice
Visual GUI builder.

--
Thomas W. Smith
Senior Engineer
"Steven O." <nu**@null.com> wrote in message
news:vd********************************@4ax.com...

I am seeking some kind of tool that I can use for GUI prototyping. I
know how to use Visual Basic, but since a lot of software is being
coded in Java or C++, I'd like to learn a Java or C++ -based tool.
Back when I took my Java and C++ classes (two or three years ago), the
available tools -- at least the ones I could find -- were still not as
easy, not as "drag-and-drop", as Visual Basic. Has that changed?

Is there some software out there that I could use, maybe some Borland
or Sun product, that makes it very easy to design a basic GUI? The
same tool could almost surely be used to build the behind-the-scenes
code as well, but I'd leave that to pros. I just want to be able to
create screen mockups of the GUI, and let someone else actually build
the code that makes it work. Ideally, I'd like to find a tool where
there is a "Personal" edition that's free, or very, very cheap.

I visited Sun's site, and it *appears* they've discontinued all their
personal and student versions (unless I missed something), and I can't
afford $1000+ for the tools I did see. Borland still has the JBuilder
"Foundation" version, for free -- can anyone tell me how user-friendly
that is?

Please let me know what you can recommend. I can be contacted
directly via e-mail, if you visit the Web site in my Sig, below.
Thanks in advance for all replies.

Steve O.

"Spying On The College Of Your Choice" -- How to pick the college that is
the Best Match for a high school student's needs.
www.SpyingOnTheCollegeOfYourChoice.com