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Your Guru Paul Graham is getting trashed on Slashdot.

P: n/a
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway? Most real work is done in C++ or C
in the case of systems development. Perl is useful, but only for
dynamic web content or simple sysadmin scripts. Most slashdotters
think the same!

Some are comparing Graham to Eric S. Raymond for his snobery. LISP's
era ended when MIT's AI Lab threw out their LISP machines for SUN
workstations!

(Pauls-article-here(http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html))
Jul 17 '05 #1
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11 Replies


P: n/a
Mike Cox wrote:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway? Most real work is done in C++ or C
in the case of systems development. Perl is useful, but only for
dynamic web content or simple sysadmin scripts. Most slashdotters
think the same!


I have used Java for seven years, switched to Common Lisp about two
years ago, and have reported my experience at
http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html

All I can say is that he is right wrt Java. I don't care what other
people think. I am so much more productive with Common Lisp, so why
should I?

I don't know enough about the other mentioned languages to be able to
comment on them.
Pascal

--

Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood
on that others know what's best. Many people are deeply conditioned to
expect and hope some outside agency, power or person will solve their
problems. Letting go of expectations or even wanting this is difficult,
partially because what one is left with is oneself and all of one's
limitations.
Joel Kramer, Diana Alstad, The Guru Papers - Masks of Authoritarian Power

Jul 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
mi**********@yahoo.com (Mike Cox) writes:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway? Most real work is done in C++ or C
in the case of systems development.


That's true, and PG offers reasons for that in his book. Similarly,
he offers reasons why Java is so popular (even ignoring Sun's
promotion of it).

As a rant against Java (and most things popular) I thought Alan Kay's
was more fun. It's here (for those with Microsoft systems)
<http://murl.microsoft.com/LectureDetails.asp?1019>. The first 40
minutes or so is about Croquet, which strikes me as largely
uninteresting, but the remainder is an extended rant about how little
computer science has done since 1980, or perhaps even 1970, and about
how little anyone seems to care. I mean what's Stanford doing
teaching Java? That's not education, it's vocational training.
(Similar sentiments are in an appendix of the Croquet manual, but it's
not as fun as the actual seminar Q&A.)

[...]

Jul 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
mi**********@yahoo.com (Mike Cox) wrote in message news:<3d**************************@posting.google. com>...
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot.


Oh no! Roasted on Slashdot.

Yep, that's a real career-ender there.

Soon we will be seeing Graham sitting under a bridge, using a hubcap
for a mirror while trying to shave himself with an expired credit card
whose edge he whetted against rough concrete.
Jul 17 '05 #4

P: n/a
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mike Cox
<mi**********@yahoo.com>
wrote
on 29 Jul 2004 01:30:51 -0700
<3d**************************@posting.google.com >:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway? Most real work is done in C++ or C
in the case of systems development. Perl is useful, but only for
dynamic web content or simple sysadmin scripts. Most slashdotters
think the same!

Some are comparing Graham to Eric S. Raymond for his snobery. LISP's
era ended when MIT's AI Lab threw out their LISP machines for SUN
workstations!

(Pauls-article-here(http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html))


And you didn't mention 'C#'? Tsk tsk. And here I thought you
were a true-blue-screen Microsoft Windows fan.

:-)

--
#191, ew****@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Jul 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
Mike Cox wrote:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway? Most real work is done in C++ or C

Emacs alone would be sufficient to make any language's achievements appear
illustrious. I am surprised to learn that AutoCAD was also written in lisp.

Emacs is the most complete editor / IDE that I have ever seen. And yes, I
have used those pathetic IDEs during my long past M$ Losedoze days. I use
emacs for LaTeX (AucTeX + RefTeX), Fortran, Shell scripts, C, etc. No other
tool I know can do so much so seamlessly.

Your question above is like asking apart from being the first man on the
moon, what has Neil Armstrong done anyway.
in the case of systems development. Perl is useful, but only for
dynamic web content or simple sysadmin scripts. Most slashdotters
think the same!
These simple sysadmin scripts make life so much easier.

Some are comparing Graham to Eric S. Raymond for his snobery. LISP's
era ended when MIT's AI Lab threw out their LISP machines for SUN
workstations!


Does MIT's AI lab decide for the rest of us ?

Every tool has its place. Lisp is just one of them.
Jul 17 '05 #6

P: n/a

Mike Cox wrote:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway?


"...Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics,
AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor
applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge
Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language,
Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web
Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list."
- Kent Pitman

--
Tyler: "How's that working out for you?"
Jack: "Great."
Tyler: "Keep it up, then."
Jul 17 '05 #7

P: n/a
Pascal Costanza <co******@web.de> writes:
Mike Cox wrote:
After writing an article trashing java, and C++, notable LISP guru
Paul Graham is getting roasted on slashdot. Apart from AutoCAD and
Emacs, what has LISP done anyway?

1> "...Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics,
2> AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor
3> applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge
4> Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language,
5> Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web
6> Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list."
7> - Kent Pitman

Damn. Three lines too long for a .sig.

Wonderful quote.

--
"But he himself was not to blame for his vices. They grew out of a personal
defect in his mother. She did her best in the way of flogging him while an
infant... but, poor woman! she had the misfortune to be left-handed, and a
child flogged left-handedly had better be left unflogged." -- E.A. Poe
Jul 17 '05 #8

P: n/a
Jim
Pascal Costanza wrote:
...
I have used Java for seven years, switched to Common Lisp about two
years ago, and have reported my experience at
http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html

All I can say is that he is right wrt Java. I don't care what other
people think. I am so much more productive with Common Lisp, so why
should I?

I don't know enough about the other mentioned languages to be able to
comment on them.


Why isn't Kawa (The Java-based Scheme) discussed or linked in your
experience & article?

http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/

Jim
Jul 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:45:40 -0700, Jim <zm*******@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why isn't Kawa (The Java-based Scheme) discussed or linked in your
experience & article?


Why should it? It's an article about Common Lisp, not about Scheme.

Edi.

--

"Lisp doesn't look any deader than usual to me."
(David Thornley, reply to a question older than most languages)

Real email: (replace (subseq "sp******@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Jul 17 '05 #10

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Jim <zm*******@yahoo.com> writes:

[...]
Why isn't Kawa (The Java-based Scheme) discussed or linked in your
experience & article?

http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/


Kawa is an implementation of scheme.

A more relevant mention would be of Armed Bear Lisp,
<http://www.cliki.net/Armed%20Bear%20Lisp>, which is an implementation
of Common Lisp on JVMs. Oddly, it seems to be carefully hidden inside
an editor: <http://armedbear-j.sourceforge.net/> doesn't really
advertise the Common Lisp implementation.
Jul 17 '05 #11

P: n/a

Jim wrote:
Pascal Costanza wrote:
...
I have used Java for seven years, switched to Common Lisp about two
years ago, and have reported my experience at
http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html

All I can say is that he is right wrt Java. I don't care what other
people think. I am so much more productive with Common Lisp, so why
should I?

I don't know enough about the other mentioned languages to be able to
comment on them.


Why isn't Kawa (The Java-based Scheme) discussed or linked in your
experience & article?


....because I checked out both Scheme and Common Lisp, and find Common
Lisp much better (hence "opinionated"). It's more pragmatic, more
complete, and more convenient to program in in my experience. YMMV.

There's also Armed Bear Common Lisp, implemented on top of the JVM, BTW.
However, it's still in a very early stage, AFAICT.
Pascal

--
Tyler: "How's that working out for you?"
Jack: "Great."
Tyler: "Keep it up, then."
Jul 17 '05 #12

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