<hr> <hr /> glitch in IE

[Ted Mayett]

OK. Here is a glitch, sorry if this has been mentioned before.

This is an erratic glitch. I am now up to three other people besides
myself who have been able to see this glitch. It seems it only
happens in IE. And the <hr> causes this thing to happen.

Now, I have ~tried~ to make this glitch, and that is tough to do. I
had did it that one time, and I should have saved the work. But I
didn't save the work :(

<hr> must be near the top or the bottom of the doc for this thing to
kick in. An hr in the middle of the doc works just fine. Besides
being at the top or the bottom, I believe it is the amount of text,
and the closest commands (<p> etc.) that make this glitch work. And
now, I'm thinking a person must have a mouse with a wheel for the
glitch to kick in.

Here are examples I have found recently. I don't know how long these
will be here as I will be writing to the author of the pages about
this, and we are already in email contact.

What I do, on these following pages, and when I do this I see the
glitch, which is text that disappears and reappears. I use the
keyboard command Ctrl+End to get to the bottom of the doc quickly and
easily. And then scroll up a little and text suddenly appears. An
alternative is to use the mouse to find the "missing" text.

And that's the glitch BTW, it looks like a blank area, but it actually
does contain text.

That first one, adjust.html, this works *every time* for me on my
computers, one with WinXp and the other with WinMel. When I ctrl+end
to the bottom there is a blank area between the words 'firebird' and
'home page'. But actually there is text in that space.

Well, do I have something brand new here?
(ps. these are not my pages, I am writing to the author)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/main/adjust.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/whatnojs.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/fontsize.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/formval.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/alt.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/netscape4.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...ssbuttons.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...er_quotes.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/emex.html

This one is strange:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/essence.html

And this, despite the <hr>, has no problems:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...lexdesign.html

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm

[Tony T]

"Ted Mayett" <te*******@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:h5********************************@4ax.com...

OK. Here is a glitch, sorry if this has been mentioned before.

This is an erratic glitch. I am now up to three other people besides
myself who have been able to see this glitch. It seems it only
happens in IE. And the <hr> causes this thing to happen.

Now, I have ~tried~ to make this glitch, and that is tough to do. I
had did it that one time, and I should have saved the work. But I
didn't save the work :(

<hr> must be near the top or the bottom of the doc for this thing to
kick in. An hr in the middle of the doc works just fine. Besides
being at the top or the bottom, I believe it is the amount of text,
and the closest commands (<p> etc.) that make this glitch work. And
now, I'm thinking a person must have a mouse with a wheel for the
glitch to kick in.

Here are examples I have found recently. I don't know how long these
will be here as I will be writing to the author of the pages about
this, and we are already in email contact.

What I do, on these following pages, and when I do this I see the
glitch, which is text that disappears and reappears. I use the
keyboard command Ctrl+End to get to the bottom of the doc quickly and
easily. And then scroll up a little and text suddenly appears. An
alternative is to use the mouse to find the "missing" text.

And that's the glitch BTW, it looks like a blank area, but it actually
does contain text.

That first one, adjust.html, this works *every time* for me on my
computers, one with WinXp and the other with WinMel. When I ctrl+end
to the bottom there is a blank area between the words 'firebird' and
'home page'. But actually there is text in that space.

Well, do I have something brand new here?
(ps. these are not my pages, I am writing to the author)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/main/adjust.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/whatnojs.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/fontsize.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/formval.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/alt.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/netscape4.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...ssbuttons.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...er_quotes.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/emex.html

This one is strange:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/essence.html

And this, despite the <hr>, has no problems:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmat...lexdesign.html

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm

Had the same problem a few months ago - a search in this ng should find the
thread. Didn't seem to be any solution which kept the <hr> tags - I got
round it by replacing them with an <img> - other suggestion is to use a
narrow <div> with a coloured background.

Sorry to be brief - in a rush this morning!

--
Tony T
In email address NNNN = 7 x 643

[Stephen Poley]

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:18:37 -0700, Ted Mayett <te*******@despammed.com>
wrote:

OK. Here is a glitch, sorry if this has been mentioned before.
<snip>
What I do, on these following pages, and when I do this I see the
glitch, which is text that disappears and reappears. I use the
keyboard command Ctrl+End to get to the bottom of the doc quickly and
easily. And then scroll up a little and text suddenly appears. An
alternative is to use the mouse to find the "missing" text.

And that's the glitch BTW, it looks like a blank area, but it actually
does contain text.

That first one, adjust.html, this works *every time* for me on my
computers, one with WinXp and the other with WinMel. When I ctrl+end
to the bottom there is a blank area between the words 'firebird' and
'home page'. But actually there is text in that space.
Well, do I have something brand new here?
(ps. these are not my pages, I am writing to the author)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/main/adjust.html

.... etc.

Three or four IE glitches have been pointed out before in respect of my
pages - but I've only ever managed to reproduce one of them myself, and
that only very occasionally. It's never been consistent enough to track
down what feature of the page is triggering the problem. And I can't
reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
does it consistently for you. The idea that <HR> is somehow involved is
new to me though.

I'm afraid that's IE for you. I never use it except for checking my
pages.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[kchayka]

Stephen Poley wrote:

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:18:37 -0700, Ted Mayett <te*******@despammed.com>
wrote:

I see the glitch, which is text that disappears and reappears.
(ps. these are not my pages, I am writing to the author)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/main/adjust.html

... etc.

I can't reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
does it consistently for you.

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.
Disappearing/reappearing text in IE6 is almost always a dead give-away
for the peek-a-boo bug.
<URL:http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html>

It's odd that, on your pages, adding position:relative to #body resolves
the disappearing text in the content area, but then the #footer text
vanished. IE - go figure. :) Both were restored by adding
* html body div {position:relative}

A kludge, but at least that rule shouldn't hurt non-IE browsers. :-\

HTH

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[Stephen Poley]

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:18:49 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

Stephen Poley wrote:

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:18:37 -0700, Ted Mayett <te*******@despammed.com>
wrote:

I see the glitch, which is text that disappears and reappears.
(ps. these are not my pages, I am writing to the author)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/main/adjust.html

... etc.

I can't reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
does it consistently for you.

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.
Disappearing/reappearing text in IE6 is almost always a dead give-away
for the peek-a-boo bug.
<URL:http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html>

It's odd that, on your pages, adding position:relative to #body resolves
the disappearing text in the content area, but then the #footer text
vanished. IE - go figure. :) Both were restored by adding
* html body div {position:relative}

A kludge, but at least that rule shouldn't hurt non-IE browsers. :-\

Thanks for that. Added to the list of things to get around to some time
(I want to do some more reading up and experimenting before I consider
changing anything). OTOH maybe I'll just add a piece of text warning IE
readers ... :-/

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Ted Mayett]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 22:00:05 +0200, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:18:49 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

I can't reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
does it consistently for you.

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.

That's awesome. I was trying to reproduce it myself, and couldn't. :(
Thanks for that. Added to the list of things to get around to some time
(I want to do some more reading up and experimenting before I consider
changing anything). OTOH maybe I'll just add a piece of text warning IE
readers ... :-/

I like my solution to this... I found this glitch about a year ago in
my own work. So I removed all occurrences of <hr /> and replaced it
with a 'line gif'. And just recently I got tired of those line gif's
and replaced it all with:
<div class=" ">&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;</div> (centered)

We have heard from enough people on this <hr> thing. It is official.
<hr> and <hr /> behave erratically in IE... and that is that!

What I find fascinating though is something like this - I'm attempting
to bring my work up to Disability Standards. And I'm viewing a lot of
web pages on this subject. And I am finding pages for the blind, that
do not even have a Doc Type in the html code. Never mind what they
should have to be compliant with this disability code.

I feel sometimes that I can Google search for a 'color wheel' and I
will find a page saying that it is the 'best resource on the web for
web safe colors'. And that the page will be in black and white, and
you would wonder why they couldn't at least add colors to the 'color
wheel'.

If one day an 'any browser web page' comes along that does not display
in Mozilla, IE, and Opera... well, we shouldn't be surprised :)

And one day I find a web page saying that <tables> should never be
used improperly. And the top of the page was 3 graphics....
made with a <table>, lol, bwaaaaaaaaaaaaa

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Ted Mayett wrote:

I like my solution to this... I found this glitch about a year ago in
my own work. So I removed all occurrences of <hr /> and replaced it
with a 'line gif'.
Ouch.
And just recently I got tired of those line gif's
and replaced it all with:
<div class=" ">&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;</div> (centered)
Ouch**2.

If you're going to do anything, I'd recommend markup based on the
logical structure of the content, and styling defined in a stylesheet,
for example using a bottom-border as your <hr> replacement.

Not that I'm entirely convinced that IE is incapable of coping with
<hr> or even <hr />, provided you don't challenge it too far.
What I find fascinating though is something like this - I'm attempting
to bring my work up to Disability Standards.

So you sure don't want the kind of kludges that you're describing
above. You might manage to get those past WAI's /objective/ criteria,
but what they violate are their /subjective/ criteria.

[kchayka]

Ted Mayett wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 22:00:05 +0200, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:18:49 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

S Poley wrote:
I can't reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
does it consistently for you.

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.

That's awesome. I was trying to reproduce it myself, and couldn't. :(

On the S Poley pages, the bug consistently happened with:
1. Load one of the identified trouble pages
2. Scroll to the bottom of the page - the last paragraph is cut off.
3. Load another page, i.e. follow a link in the page footer.
4. Use the browser 'back' button - the bottom of the previous page is
shown, but the content area is now completely blank. Scroll-up restores it.
We have heard from enough people on this <hr> thing. It is official.
<hr> and <hr /> behave erratically in IE... and that is that!

I think that <hr> is just a coincidence in this case. I haven't seen odd
<hr> behavior in IE elsewhere, nor could I find anything on the subject
in the google archives. That doesn't mean IE doesn't have some kind of
bug, of course. ;)

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[Ted Mayett]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:06:01 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

If you're going to do anything, I'd recommend markup based on the
logical structure of the content, and styling defined in a stylesheet,
for example using a bottom-border as your <hr> replacement.

Yep. I'll be changing to this...

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm

[Ted Mayett]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:08:01 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.

That's awesome. I was trying to reproduce it myself, and couldn't. :(

On the S Poley pages, the bug consistently happened with:
1. Load one of the identified trouble pages
2. Scroll to the bottom of the page - the last paragraph is cut off.
3. Load another page, i.e. follow a link in the page footer.
4. Use the browser 'back' button - the bottom of the previous page is
shown, but the content area is now completely blank. Scroll-up restores it.

What I meant was that I cannot make a doc that consistently glitches.
I was attempting this, and quickly got bored with it all. But I
believe that if I put the time and trouble into this thing that I
could make a page that would consistently glitch in IE.

We have heard from enough people on this <hr> thing. It is official.
<hr> and <hr /> behave erratically in IE... and that is that!

I think that <hr> is just a coincidence in this case. I haven't seen odd
<hr> behavior in IE elsewhere, nor could I find anything on the subject
in the google archives. That doesn't mean IE doesn't have some kind of
bug, of course. ;)

No, I don't believe it is coincidence at all. <hr> and <hr /> in a
document can cause a glitch. But unfortunately the glitch is erratic.

I'm pretty sure I have come up with a way to safely use this command,
but then I'm not sure. Since so far, it is only erratic behavior.
And so maybe my "guaranteed" glitch free use of hr is not really
glitch free at all.

But this is all speculation for idle minds anyway. I've solved this
problem 100%... no hr's in my docs. And perhaps now that this idea
has been posted, maybe somebody will find a way to consistently cause
a glitch in IE by the use of hr.

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm

[Stephen Poley]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:08:01 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

Ted Mayett wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 22:00:05 +0200, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:18:49 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:
S Poley wrote:
> I can't reproduce this problem now with IE6 on WinXP, even for the page that
> does it consistently for you.

I can consistently reproduce it with IE6 on W2K.
That's awesome. I was trying to reproduce it myself, and couldn't. :(

On the S Poley pages, the bug consistently happened with:
1. Load one of the identified trouble pages
2. Scroll to the bottom of the page - the last paragraph is cut off.

Can't reproduce the cut-off here.
3. Load another page, i.e. follow a link in the page footer.
4. Use the browser 'back' button - the bottom of the previous page is
shown, but the content area is now completely blank. Scroll-up restores it.

That is however reproducible in my copy of IE. (But one has to be at the
very bottom of the page - a single touch on the up-arrow key before
following the link means the problem doesn't occur.)

We have heard from enough people on this <hr> thing. It is official.
<hr> and <hr /> behave erratically in IE... and that is that!

I think that <hr> is just a coincidence in this case. I haven't seen odd
<hr> behavior in IE elsewhere, nor could I find anything on the subject
in the google archives. That doesn't mean IE doesn't have some kind of
bug, of course. ;)

I'm inclined to agree on that.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Ted Mayett]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:27:11 +0200, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

That is however reproducible in my copy of IE. (But one has to be at the
very bottom of the page - a single touch on the up-arrow key before
following the link means the problem doesn't occur.)

Exactly! About a year ago, this friend of mine who is quite an
artist when it comes to web work, she and I were on the phone
discussing design and code.

I was trying to tell her about this <hr> glitch I had found, and she
would not accept this, she was humoring me. And this was
understandable as at that time my knowledge of code was weak.

So we are on the phone together, and clicking along together on web
pages offering tutorial advice on css. And she was saying which is
good info, bad info, and stuff like this so I could study and learn
css.

And then suddenly, HAPPINESS. I said to her, "you see that other text
on the bottom of the page?". She said "there is no other text on the
bottom of the page." I said, "scroll the mouse at the bottom and text
will appear." She did this and said, "huh, what is this!"

And to this very day, if a web site I am visiting has <hr> near the
top or bottom of the doc, I will sometimes use the mouse and see if
maybe there is text that is not displaying properly. And it was
doing this, that led me to noticing that not all the text was
appearing on these url's I had previously listed.

Remember always, these hr glitches in IE are not consistent. Case in
point is I downloaded one of your pages using File Save AS. And then
checked it off my HD, and there was no glitch. And then a few days
after I looked at it again, and there was a glitch.

And this is what was happening with my own work. Text would appear
and disappear, but not consistently. But always it was where an <hr>
was found.

My theory is that it has to do with the volume of text preceding or
following the hr command. And where hr used in the middle of a large
enough document, there is no glitch. But how much text is enough
text? I don't know for sure, and have no desire to isolate this.

And I further think it has to do with the commands like <p> and etc
that follow the <hr>. I'm just not sure exactly how to make a
document glitch every single time without fail using hr.

But, FWIW, I can make docs all day long that will at least glitch
sometimes because of <hr>.

--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/links.htm