By using this site, you agree to our updated Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Manage your Cookies Settings.
439,978 Members | 1,373 Online
Bytes IT Community
+ Ask a Question
Need help? Post your question and get tips & solutions from a community of 439,978 IT Pros & Developers. It's quick & easy.

Third test post of ciwas mFAQ

P: n/a
I have worked some more on this suggested new mFAQ version trying to get
all user input to blend into the text.

Another review by the NG would be welcome.

=====

Archive-name: www/stylesheets/newsgroup-faq
Posting-Frequency: once a week
Last-modified: July 22, 2004
Version: 2.00
URL: <http://css.nu/faq/ciwas-mFAQ.html>
Maintainer: Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu>

comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets meta-FAQ v2.00
__________________________________________________ ____________________

00: ===== T O C =====

01: What is <comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets> ?
02: What kinds of posts are acceptable in this news group ?
03: What kinds of posts may be acceptable in this news group ?
04: What kinds of posts are not acceptable in this news group ?
05: Where are the technical resources for this news group ?
06: How do I get best possible response to my articles ?
07: What is the atmosphere of 'ciwas' ?
08: Where can I find the latest version of this FAQ ?

09: ==== End ====
__________________________________________________ ____________________

01: ===== Q & A =====

Q: What is <comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets>

A: This is an unmoderated news group which passed for creation by
votes of 166:19 as reported in <news.announce.newgroups> on
1997-03-20.

The charter of this news group, taken from the vote result
announcement, is:

"This unmoderated news group is intended for the discussion of Web
style sheets. Style sheets can make an author's life much easier.
With style sheets, one only needs to specify presentational pre-
ferences once, and the style can be applied to an entire site.
Not only that, but style sheets also reduce download time when one
file contains all the style information."
02: ===== Q & A =====

Q: What kinds of posts are acceptable in this news group ?

A: This news group is a forum for discussion of style sheet technology
and usage that is applicable to the WWW.

Examples of valid topics for this news group include:

* How to achieve a particular effect with style sheets.
* The relative advantages of different style sheet languages.
* Specifications versus implementations.
* Bugs and limitations in implementations.
03: ===== Q & A =====

Q: What kinds of posts may be acceptable in this news group ?

A: Articles on related WWW subjects (e.g. (X)HTML mark-up, client or
server side scripting languages, etc.) that may be required for a
full discussion of a specific style sheet problem.

In general terms:

* articles on (X)HTML mark-up should be posted to
<comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html>

* articles on XML mark-up should be posted to <comp.text.xml>

* articles on DSSSL may be posted to <comp.text.sgml> but the most
correct forum might be the DSSSL mailing list at
<DS******@lists.mulberrytech.com> which has a main WWW entry at
<http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist/>

* articles on the Java programming language should be posted to a
suitable NG in the <comp.lang.java.*> hierarchy.

* articles on the client side scripting languages Javascript and
Jscript should be posted to <comp.lang.javascript>

* articles on other types of client side, or server side, scripting
and/or programming languages should be posted to the news group
or mailing list most appropriate to the particular language.
A search at <http://www.google.com> may be of help to find the
correct forum for articles that are directly off-topic for
<comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets>
04: ===== Q & A =====

Q: What kind of posts are not acceptable in this news group ?

A: Some examples of inappropriate posts include:

* Chain letters, including "Make Money Fast" articles.
* Known hoaxes (like the "Good Times Virus").
* Announcements of non-relevant Web pages and services.
* Personal introductions or requests for e-mail.
* Off topic articles, questions or responses.
* Test articles.
* Articles cross-posted to several news groups where the article
is off-topic for one or more of the news groups in the cross-
post list.
* Articles posted as separate copies to many groups ("spam").
* Articles with significantly more quoted than new content.
* Articles offering items for sale and commercial advertisements.
* Articles which aren't primarily text in a standard alphabet
(e.g. binaries, pictures, Rot13, etc).

The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) gives advice on how to
post to usenet in 'RFC1855' <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt>.
Follow those recommendations whenever you post to usenet and your
articles should be well received not only in 'ciwas' but also in
any other news group you may want to visit.
05: ===== Q & A =====

Q: Where are the technical resources for this news group ?

A: Available information on the subject of style sheets is too exten-
sive to be directly written into a posted document like this meta-
FAQ. It is suggested that you research your technical questions on
the use of style sheets in one or more of the following places on
the WWW.

* Style sheet information from the World Wide Web Consortium
(also known as the W3C) starts at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>
and continues at <http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/>

- The official recommendation for Cascading Style Sheets level 1
(aka CSS1) <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1>

- The official recommendation for Cascading Style Sheets level 2
(aka CSS2) <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/>

- The official errata document for Cascading Style Sheets level 2
(which is no longer maintained, in favor of the current ongoing
work on the CSS2.1 specification)

<http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/REC-CSS2-19980512-errata.html>

- The official Candidate recommendation for Cascading Style
Sheets level 2.1 (which is currently a "work in progress"
document) <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/>

- The official recommendation for XSL Transformations (XSLT)
Version 1.0 <http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt>

- The official recommendation for XML Path Language (XPath)
Version 1.0 <http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath>

- The official recommendation for Extensible Stylesheet Language
(XSL/XSL-FO) Version 1.0 <http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/>

* Information on other style sheet capable languages, document
transformation methods and specifications.

- Document Style Semantics and Specification Language (DSSSL)
<http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist/>

- Formatting Output Specification Instance (FOSI)
<http://xml.coverpages.org/gov-apps.html#mil2167a>

- Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals (IETM)
<http://www.ietm.net/>
<http://navycals.dt.navy.mil/cals/documents/sp87269A.pdf>

- International Committee for Accessible Document Design (ICADD)
<http://xml.coverpages.org/ICADDiso.html>
<http://xml.coverpages.org/ICADDpur.html>
It should be noted that the HTML2 DTD was designed to be ICADD
compatible <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1866.txt>

* Syntax checkers for CSS are available online from here
<http://www.htmlhelp.org/tools/csscheck/> (CSS1 primarily)
<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/>

* True HTML syntax validators are available online from here
<http://www.htmlhelp.org/tools/validator/>
<http://valet.webthing.com/page/>
<http://validator.w3.org/>

* A commercial Windows front for James Clark's 'nsgmls' SGML
parser/validator is available from here
<http://arealvalidator.com/>

* In need of a good, all purpose (X)HTML - CSS, editor for the WIN
environment? Go to <http://www.notetab.com/>. It's available in a
full sized commercial version as well as a slightly scaled down
free version, but its real value lies in the vast amount of free
add-in "clips" available for it. True DTD based validation of
your markup is just one of the modules that you do not have to
pay extra to have at your fingertips.

* W3C has a CSS test suite available, the work to design that test
suite was originally done by Eric A. Meyer but today it's main-
tained by Bert Bos.
<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/>

* Eric Meyer's "Complex Spiral Demo" became a "classic example" at
the same time it was published. Eric shows the full capacity of
CSS1 (combined with a few, very basic, pick up's from CSS2)
<http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html>

* Todd Fahrner once designed a set of core stylesheets that was
placed on the W3C server system. Todd has found other (maybe
more valuable) interests in life as compared to participating
in discussions in 'ciwas' but his original excellent work is
still available, now maintained by Bert Bos.
<http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/Core/>

* The Web Design Group has a CSS reference here
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/css/>

* The authoring FAQ for this news group is at
<http://css.nu/faq/ciwas-aFAQ.html>

* The HTML Writers Guild CSS FAQ, originally produced by Eva von
Pepel a few years back. Still claimed to be maintained by Eva
but has not been updated for quite some time
<http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/cssFAQ.html>

* To save some time on Google evaluations we have here a list of
CSS educational sites as taken from the two first result pages
from Google on the simple search key 'CSS'. Most of these sites
gets recommended every now and then by regulars here in 'ciwas'.

<http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp>
<http://www.csszengarden.com/>
<http://glish.com/css/>
<http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/>
<http://css.nu/>
<http://css.maxdesign.com.au/>
<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/>
<http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/index.html>
<http://www.alistapart.com/topics/css/>
06: ===== Q & A =====

Q: How do I get best possible response to my articles ?

A: First, please search this newsgroup for recent discussion of your
issue(s) [a].
Next, make sure your (X)HTML markup is valid and that your CSS is
correctly formed; see Q&A #5 for links to (X)HTML validators and
CSS checkup resources.
If the problem remains, get your code pared down to a bare minimum,
which still shows the problem, and upload it to a www server.
When posting, indicate what you feel is wrong, what you'd like to
have happen instead, and include the URL to the test case you've
just prepared.
This process often reveals the problem before you even have to ask,
and it saves time and effort for the helpful regulars who really do
want to assist you.

[a]<http://groups.google.com/groups?group=comp.infosystems.www.authoring.styles heets>
is an effective tool to search previous discussions in ciwas.
07: ===== Q & A =====

Q: What is the atmosphere of 'ciwas' ?

A: Well, "strict" maybe a short definition, and naturally you will
find 'OT' discussions here just as well as you can find them in
other NG's. Still, over the years since the creation of 'ciwas',
basically three items has come to be essential for any one who
wants to place a commentary article in 'ciwas'.

a) Make your comment in a natural conversation order, either below
the quoted material or in-line with it; Do not "top-post".

b) Include quoted material (with attribution) but trim it to the
essentials.

c) You should normally post an article to one news group only.
If, and only if, the topic of your article covers more than one
news group, you should cross-post the article.
Do not post separate articles with the same message to different
news groups.

Don't be upset if a seemingly simple article/comment/question
triggers a long thread of posts on other issues related to your
input. After all usenet is a forum for discussions at first, not a
"help desk". All eventual help that can be had from a discussion
shall be looked upon as a "fringe benefit".

One ciwas usenaut has agreed to let his views of the NG be
referenced from this mFAQ at <http://www.css.nu/faq/ciwas-NG.html>
08: ===== Q & A =====

Q: Where can I find the latest version of this FAQ ?

A: This FAQ was last updated 2004-07-22 copyright 1998 ... 2004
-- Jan Roland Eriksson --

Permission to freely reproduce this document electronically is
given as long as the document remains uncut and unedited.

This FAQ is posted periodically to the NG once a week and I'll
endeavor to use the same subject line at all times so that those
of you who have seen it can kill-file the subject.

FAQ version number in subject line will be changed whenever the
document has been revised. You should be able to use that fact
when setting your kill filter to make sure that you have the
latest version available at all times.

This meta-FAQ is also available in HTML on the World Wide Web at
<http://css.nu/faq/ciwas-mFAQ.html> and as a text document at
<http://css.nu/faq/ciwas-mFAQ.txt> with the revision history of
this meta-FAQ at <http://css.nu/faq/ciwas-mFAQ-rev.html>
09: ===== E N D =====
__________________________________________________ ____________________

--
Rex
Jul 20 '05 #1
Share this Question
Share on Google+
12 Replies


P: n/a
JRS: In article <ln********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:31:31, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.s
tylesheets, Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
I have worked some more on this suggested new mFAQ version trying to get
all user input to blend into the text.

Another review by the NG would be welcome.
* articles on the client side scripting languages Javascript and
Jscript should be posted to <comp.lang.javascript>
The default assumption in c.l.j is Internet client-side Web pages; but
server-side javascript and (IMHO) the execution in Win32+ of *.js files
by WSH are quite acceptable. Suggestion : just omit "client side"
(hyphenated preferred).

Jscript proper is the topic of news:microsoft.public.scripting.jscript
(and *.vbscript & *.wsh also exist).

* Articles posted as separate copies to many groups ("spam").
True, but IMHO not useful, as spammers don't read FAQs. Responses to
spam are deprecate-worthy.

* Articles multi-posted as separate copies to different groups.

The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) gives advice on how to
post to usenet in 'RFC1855' <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt>.
Follow those recommendations whenever you post to usenet and your
articles should be well received not only in 'ciwas' but also in
any other news group you may want to visit.
FYI, AIUI, one of
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/...article-13.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/...-useage-00.txt
will supersede that and Son-of-RFC1036, when finished.

A: This FAQ was last updated 2004-07-22
...


And now an authoring question : for Web pages, *exactly*, down to the
level of bytes in the file, should an ISO-8601 numeric separated date be
constructed? Until earlier today, I thought I knew.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:39:12 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <ln********************************@4ax.com>,
dated Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:31:31, seen in
news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets,
Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
[...]
Another review by the NG would be welcome. * articles on the client side scripting languages Javascript and
Jscript should be posted to <comp.lang.javascript>


The default assumption in c.l.j is Internet client-side Web pages; but
server-side javascript and (IMHO) the execution in Win32+ of *.js files
by WSH are quite acceptable. Suggestion : just omit "client side"
(hyphenated preferred).


Ok! I can buy that, anything that makes the text more simple is
acceptable.
Jscript proper is the topic of news:microsoft.public.scripting.jscript
(and *.vbscript & *.wsh also exist).
Well; I don't see it as the task of this mFAQ for 'ciwas' to try to
divert OT postings into as many other NG's as ever possible, so I would
like to draw a line at referring people to what is available within the
traditional "big 8" NG's, and 'clj' belongs there, MS NG's do not.

I don't know if you have noticed, but over the last couple of years MS
has literally "spammed" Usenet with new-group control messages, I do not
think it's a ciwas concern to encourage the use of any of them when
traditional alternatives exists and lives on in a strong fashion.

Further; Jim Ley, who is the maintainer of the 'clj' FAQ, happens to be
an excellent and very responsible Javasript/Jscript programmer.
Just about all of his script creations, for MSIE only as one example,
lends themselves as teaching material for any one who wants to use a
script language. But Jim is in 'clj' so that's where I want to refer
people, for that very reason, for good service to those in need, and the
fact that 'clj' is a member of the "big 8" hierarchy.
* Articles posted as separate copies to many groups ("spam"). True, but IMHO not useful, as spammers don't read FAQs. Responses to
spam are deprecate-worthy.
So I will drop the '("spam")' part of that line. Another simplification
that I like.
* Articles multi-posted as separate copies to different groups.
[...]
FYI, AIUI, one of
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/...article-13.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/...-useage-00.txt
will supersede that and Son-of-RFC1036, when finished.
Time to revise the mFAQ when that happens then :-)
A: This FAQ was last updated 2004-07-22

And now an authoring question : for Web pages, *exactly*, down to the
level of bytes in the file, should an ISO-8601 numeric separated date be
constructed? Until earlier today, I thought I knew.


I'm not sure that I do understand the real backbone of your question at
first so I will give my personal view to start with.

To me a date written, as above, is "just another string of text"
initially. Should there be any one out there that needs to parse that
text string for some specific reason, I would trust that person to have
available the proper software tools to do so, or to be capable of
writing his own.

As a side note; I do have Internet connection to my bank and I do some
99%+ of my banking business over 'the net'.

I have, as an experiment, tried to use several different date formats
when I specify a pay date for my bills. So far I have found that my
bank's server barfs at dates where order of significance is violated.

The typical "backwards" US-American way of specifying things out of
"order of significance" as in "month-day-year" is a no-no.

Any other combination seems to be Ok, even named parts of dates as in
"25 juli 2004" (name of month is in Swedish) is accepted.

So if I was in your shoes, I would move on to more important matters and
leave it to users to interpret what you have written in your web pages.

Thanks for the input by the way, it seems we are closing in on a piece
of mFAQ text that I can move on to post for archive.

All the best...

--
Rex
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
JRS: In article <t8********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:30:50, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.s
tylesheets, Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:39:12 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <ln********************************@4ax.com>,
dated Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:31:31, seen in
news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets,
Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
[...]
Another review by the NG would be welcome. Further; Jim Ley, who is the maintainer of the 'clj' FAQ,
Currently, he provides the aegis and the hosting; Richard Cornford does
the editing of FAQ and notes.

A: This FAQ was last updated 2004-07-22

And now an authoring question : for Web pages, *exactly*, down to the
level of bytes in the file, should an ISO-8601 numeric separated date be
constructed? Until earlier today, I thought I knew.


I'm not sure that I do understand the real backbone of your question at
first so I will give my personal view to start with.
...


I've always used YYYY-MM-DD where the - characters use the - key and are
encoded as a byte of value 45.

But, having discovered style p { text-align: justify } , I tried it
only to find that YYYY-MM-DD then often had a visual appearance rather
resembling YYYY- MM- DD (I already knew that dates might appear as YYYY-
MM-DD) which is really ugly.

So is that just bad design, or a bug, in IE4; or should some other
character be used? &ndash; behaves similarly.

<nobr> prevents the enclosed being line-broken; but allows it to be
stretched.

Does CSS provide an answer? CSS1?

Word 97 will line-break such a date; but does not stretch it.

I've never considered that ISO-8601 might call for a character other
than the well-known "-" as used in programming for "minus".

As a side note; I do have Internet connection to my bank and I do some
99%+ of my banking business over 'the net'.

I have, as an experiment, tried to use several different date formats
when I specify a pay date for my bills. So far I have found that my
bank's server barfs at dates where order of significance is violated.

The typical "backwards" US-American way of specifying things out of
"order of significance" as in "month-day-year" is a no-no.


Although your E-address is Niue (which, via NZ, puts you in the British
Commonwealth <g>), your TZ is -0200, which suggests EU. Obviously EU
and other non-NA organisations need to reject US formatted numeric
dates, except on one day per month.

My bank often looks twice at YYYY-MM-DD, but accepts it without demur.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a

I don't quite know why this detailed discussion point has taken off
in the course of reviewing the FAQ, but anyway...

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
I've always used YYYY-MM-DD where the - characters use the - key and are
encoded as a byte of value 45.

But, having discovered style p { text-align: justify } , I tried it
only to find that YYYY-MM-DD then often had a visual appearance rather
resembling YYYY- MM- DD (I already knew that dates might appear as YYYY-
MM-DD) which is really ugly. So is that just bad design, or a bug, in IE4;
Definitely the former (IE6 doesn't cause this problem); it's hard to
rate it as a "bug", since HTML specifications are somewhat vague on
the topic of wordbreaks in line folding and justifying. You'd need to
check the Unicode character properties to get an authoritative ruling.
But why bother? The software in question is never going to get fixed,
so either don't challenge it with stuff it can't handle (justified
text is unpleasant in screen display anyway), or just put up with that
antique software that you've decided to stick with, and stop making
such a fuss in public. Most IE users have long since moved on.
Although your E-address is Niue (which, via NZ, puts you in the British
Commonwealth <g>), your TZ is -0200, which suggests EU.
(As if you didn't know, or at least would be capable of finding
out...)
Obviously EU and other non-NA organisations need to reject US
formatted numeric dates, except on one day per month.


As long as a 4-digit year is used, dates become unambiguous on and
after the 13th of every month, too. But 02/03/04 could be almost
anything!
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Jan Roland Eriksson wrote:
I have worked some more on this suggested new mFAQ version trying to get
all user input to blend into the text.


Nice work... Here's my thoughts, as far as I got:
For 06: it says

When posting, indicate what you feel is wrong, what you'd like to
have happen instead, and include the URL to the test case you've
just prepared.

Two points are missing:

- which browser/version is the questioner using?
- have they checked the spec to see whether their expectation is
correct?

The first question is easy to fold into the FAQ. The second needs
a bit of diplomacy, since it's understandable that many newbies won't
be able to discern what the spec requires, and will simply be asking
for whatever seems to them to be reasonable.

[I'm not ready with a suggested text here - just offering a comment,
sorry]

07: <suggested>

If you're new to Usenet, you might not yet be familiar with the
accepted conventions of the major usenet groups. These conventions
have developed over many years, and it's hard to find them neatly
packaged in a single place, but if you're attentive to the way in
which regular usenauts interact, you'll probably develop a feeling for
why things are done the way that they are - and why some kinds of
behaviour are considered seriously rude.

[a URL would be useful here, but I don't have one at my fingertips:
news.announce.newusers might be worth a mention?]

Two issues are taken quite seriously: quoting style, and the use
(or misuse) of multiple groups.
</>

[then follow on to the existing detailed text]

No big deal, but I think I'd be inclined to fold a) and b) into a
composite.

Tentative draft:

a+b) The preferred quoting style for follow-ups is to quote minimal
extracts from the previous postings, so as to clearly set the context
for your response, using conventional quote markers (usually ">" at
the left: most newsreaders can do this for you); and then (after a
blank line) type your response. Continue through the posting, quoting
point by point as is relevant, and responding to it or adding your own
contribution to the discussion. Don't quote parts to which you're not
responding, as this only confuses your readers.

When quoting, make sure that it's clear who said what! Many
participants consider it rude to snip out their attributions.

On the few occasions where point-by-point quoting isn't feasible,
summarise the previous discussion in your own words (so that readers
can understand what you considered to be relevant, and how you
interpreted it), and then give your response.
--- Best I could do so far...
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:02:11 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <t8********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:30:50, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.s
tylesheets, Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:39:12 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <ln********************************@4ax.com>,
dated Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:31:31, seen in
news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets,
Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
[...]
A: This FAQ was last updated 2004-07-22


[...]
I've always used YYYY-MM-DD where the - characters use the - key and are
encoded as a byte of value 45. But, having discovered style p { text-align: justify }, I tried it
only to find that YYYY-MM-DD then often had a visual appearance rather
resembling YYYY- MM- DD (I already knew that dates might appear as YYYY-
MM-DD) which is really ugly.

So is that just bad design, or a bug, in IE4; or should some other
character be used? &ndash; behaves similarly.
Well; IE4 in it self must be considered to be _very_ buggy by today's
CSS browser standards, even as compared to IE6 in fact.

The following idea, not tested but just out of the top of my head, might
be worth trying in order to avoid justification and/or line breaks
within your date string.

Suggested style rules (Georgia is only my example font here, can be any
prop.font you want to suggest)...

body { font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 100%; }
..date { white-space: pre; font-family: Georgia, serif; }

And in your markup...

<span class="date">2004-07-24</span>

Specifying 'pre' as the value for the 'white-space' property will most
probably set your browser to use the font you have specified as default
for "pre-formatted material" (most often 'Courier New' in a Win
environment). So including a suggested "reset" back to Georgia in the
..date rule will be required so that you do not get a sudden change of
font just because you have specifically marked up a calendar date.

Naturally you could try the other way around too...

Style...
body { font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 100%; }
pre { font-family: Georgia, serif; }

Markup...
<pre>2004-07-24</pre>

You have to do your own experimenting here, I'm only giving the hints on
where to start...
Does CSS provide an answer? CSS1?
All I exemplified above is CSS1 only.

[...]
Although your E-address is Niue (which, via NZ, puts you in the British
Commonwealth <g>)...
I live in Sweden and I'm a Swedish citizen by birth.

There is a very simple story behind the fact that the Niue Island top
domain has become extremely popular here in Sweden.

1) The Swedish NIC took one very silly decision already from the start
of its operation. Only Swedish based share holder companies would be
allowed to get a domain directly under the '.se' top domain.
Private persons that wants to be visible as Swedes have to make do with
a '.pp.se' mockup. (pp = private person)

2) The two letter word "nu" translates directly from Swedish to English
as "now". As the government of Niue Island franchised their NIC to a US
based company that started to make domains available directly under the
'.nu' top domain, it became very popular here in Sweden to have domains
like 'myname.nu(now)' (you get the idea?)

Needless to say, it's much cheaper to have a '.nu' domain than any
Swedish '.pp.se' mockup too.

Also it is clear both from Niue Island and from their US-based NIC
operator that part of the money that comes in on '.nu' domain
registrations actually do land in the treasure chest of Niue Island.
...your TZ is -0200, which suggests EU.


Hmm, -0200 ?
We are on "daylight saving" here. Is that why it says -0200 ?
In reality we are only one hour ahead of the old GMT.

All the best...

--
Rex
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
*Dr John Stockton* <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk>:

I've always used YYYY-MM-DD where the - characters use the - key and are
encoded as a byte of value 45.


Try U+2011 (‑). It looks exactly the same, but prevents line-breaks
around it. It usually degrades nicely to the simple ASCII hyphen-minus
(U+002D)---even in IE.

U+FEFF, U+002D, U+FEFF and (preferably) U+2060, U+002D, U+2060 should also
work, but much less reliably. (The first word joiner character might be
optional, though.)

--
"There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but there are others who, thanks to their art and intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun."
Pablo Picasso
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:37:29 +0100, Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk>
wrote:
For 06: it says

When posting, indicate what you feel is wrong, what you'd like to
have happen instead, and include the URL to the test case you've
just prepared.

Two points are missing:

- which browser/version is the questioner using?
I agree, indeed.
- have they checked the spec to see whether their expectation is
correct?


I think that's not necessary. I think simply knowing what they are after,
what they WANT to occur, is enough guidance to let us reply with "Do it
this way" or "You can't do it" or "Why the ^%$! would you want to do
THAT?!?" Because, as you say, the poster may be so new to the specific
area that they have a seemingly reasonable idea but no idea how to go
about it.
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
JRS: In article <Pi*******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla. ac.uk
, dated Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:17:16, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.au thoring.stylesheets, Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> posted :On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
I've always used YYYY-MM-DD where the - characters use the - key and are
encoded as a byte of value 45.

But, having discovered style p { text-align: justify } , I tried it
only to find that YYYY-MM-DD then often had a visual appearance rather
resembling YYYY- MM- DD (I already knew that dates might appear as YYYY-
MM-DD) which is really ugly.
So is that just bad design, or a bug, in IE4;


Definitely the former (IE6 doesn't cause this problem); it's hard to
rate it as a "bug", since HTML specifications are somewhat vague on
the topic of wordbreaks in line folding and justifying. You'd need to
check the Unicode character properties to get an authoritative ruling.
But why bother? The software in question is never going to get fixed,
so either don't challenge it with stuff it can't handle (justified
text is unpleasant in screen display anyway)


(that's a matter of opinion; it is at worst satisfactory when there are
always several words per complete line. Habitual book-readers with
adequate screens find the popularity of sans-serif far more annoying
that the presence/absence of proper justification.)
, or just put up with that
antique software that you've decided to stick with, and stop making
such a fuss in public. Most IE users have long since moved on.


But not all. Consider charities, impecunious universities, the third
world, who may not be able to get new machines and may not want to risk
upgrading old but adequate machines with the latest software.
Obviously EU and other non-NA organisations need to reject US
formatted numeric dates, except on one day per month.


As long as a 4-digit year is used, dates become unambiguous on and
after the 13th of every month, too. But 02/03/04 could be almost
anything!


A date such as 04/13/2004 should be rejected, since either it is a UK-
type typo or a US-style entry which one should not need to bother with
and which indicates probable error three weeks later on 05/04 / 04/05.
A MM/DD/YYYY date should always be rejected, but is sometimes absolutely
undetectable.

Of the six possible orders of numeric Y M D, I believe that only three
are ever used.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
, or just put up with that
antique software that you've decided to stick with, and stop making
such a fuss in public. Most IE users have long since moved on.
But not all. Consider charities,


I've never advocated doing anything unnecessarily harmful to older
browsers; but this is only cosmetics that you're whining about, and
unnecessary cosmetics at that. If "justify" causes problems, then
stop doing it. It's as simple as that.
impecunious universities,
We gave the kiddies NN4.* on the old machines, for the obvious
security reasons... (that's some time back, though)
the third world, who may not be able to get new machines


There just aren't enough old machines in existence to make much of an
impression on the third world, as far as I can see. Nevertheless, I
*still* wouldn't do anything unnecessarily harmful to old browsers.
Their users just have to live with the fact that old browsers don't
support current HTML, and their users may often have to cope with
cosmetic faults too. It's reality, so cope with it, and concentrate
on something substantive.
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
JRS: In article <o0********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:39:51, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.s
tylesheets, Jan Roland Eriksson <re*@css.nu> posted :
The following idea,
Thanks, but did no hood; date still would split and stretch.
Naturally you could try the other way around too...


That put the date in a quasi-paragraph of its own, so it would not
stretch or need to split.

The answer is to use at least one of the three following : YYYY/MM/DD,
no justification, not IE4. I'll rely mainly on #2.

...your TZ is -0200, which suggests EU.


Hmm, -0200 ?
We are on "daylight saving" here. Is that why it says -0200 ?
In reality we are only one hour ahead of the old GMT.


In winter, you are an hour ahead of GMT, probably +-<0.9s for UTC-GMT.
In summer, you are an hour (+-) ahead of the actual time in the place
Greenwich, which is an hour exactly ahead of GMT. Legal time here is
GMT / GMT+1; in Sweden probably UTC+1 / UTC+2. Time signals, though,
use UTC. BBC World Service uses GMT, verbally.

CP: ‑ prevents stretch and wrap; but it shows as an empty brick
on Georgia and default Times New Roman and as a thick vertical bar in
serif. Serif being a font other than Times New Roman was unexpected.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:
(that's a matter of opinion; it is at worst satisfactory when there are
always several words per complete line. Habitual book-readers with
adequate screens find the popularity of sans-serif far more annoying
that the presence/absence of proper justification.)


user.css
* { font-family: "MyFavouriteSerifFont" !important; }

--
Chris
Jul 20 '05 #13

This discussion thread is closed

Replies have been disabled for this discussion.