mozilla

[Pixel Warrior]

I have a site which looks quite nice in IE and also looks just fine on
Mozilla Firefox (on my home machine). But when I access it from the server
where I have uploaded it, NONE of the CSS formatting works.

I have bought "Tree Menu Magic" from Project 7 and adapted their style sheet
for this site.

Site address: www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest

I don't think it's a Mozilla problem as such because then it wouldn't work
on Mozilla when loading from my own machine, right? And it can't be a server
problem because then IE wouldn't work properly either?

so anybody know what gives?
TIA

[Els]

Pixel Warrior wrote:

I have a site which looks quite nice in IE and also looks
just fine on Mozilla Firefox (on my home machine). But when
I access it from the server where I have uploaded it, NONE
of the CSS formatting works.

I have bought "Tree Menu Magic" from Project 7 and adapted
their style sheet for this site.

Site address: www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest

I don't think it's a Mozilla problem as such because then
it wouldn't work on Mozilla when loading from my own
machine, right? And it can't be a server problem because
then IE wouldn't work properly either?

so anybody know what gives?

Your CSS isn't exactly written in a way which is easy to spot
mistakes, so I just copied the whole lot, uploaded it to my own
server, and it is working in both Moz and IE.
http://locusmeus.com/temp/vest.html
Didn't copy any images, but the colour and text formatting is
there, in both browsers.
So maybe it is a server thing?

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

[Andrew Thompson]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:22:06 GMT, Pixel Warrior wrote:

www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest

If you check the file..
<http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest/assets/styles.css>

Against the validator it indicates a problem..
<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest/assets/styles.css>

Which seems to be that your server is
delivering the CSS as 'text/html' rather
than 'text/css', which you can see here..
<http://mindprod.com/jgloss/mime.html>

It seems you need to get your host
to configure there Apache correctly..
<http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.tased.edu.au>

And BTW, please put full and proper URL's,
as some newsreaders do not presume an
http:// before URLish looking things..

HTH

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

[Pixel Warrior]

Thanks! that seems to be the answer. And thanks for the hint about the
http:// thing.
"Andrew Thompson" <Se********@www.invalid> wrote in message
news:bz****************************@40tude.net...

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:22:06 GMT, Pixel Warrior wrote:

www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest
If you check the file..
<http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest/assets/styles.css>

Against the validator it indicates a problem..

<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/v....edu.au/tasonl
ine/vest/assets/styles.css>
Which seems to be that your server is
delivering the CSS as 'text/html' rather
than 'text/css', which you can see here..
<http://mindprod.com/jgloss/mime.html>

It seems you need to get your host
to configure there Apache correctly..
<http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.tased.edu.au>

And BTW, please put full and proper URL's,
as some newsreaders do not presume an
http:// before URLish looking things..

HTH

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

[Brian]

Pixel Warrior wrote:

I have a site which looks quite nice in IE and also looks just fine
on Mozilla Firefox (on my home machine). But when I access it from
the server where I have uploaded it, NONE of the CSS formatting
works.

www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/vest
You're sending the css with the wrong MIME type. The server claims it
is text/html. The correct MIME type for CSS is text/css. Fix that, and
it should be fine.
I don't think it's a Mozilla problem as such because then it
wouldn't work on Mozilla when loading from my own machine, right?
Your own machine does not have a server, but rather file > open, where
there is no MIME type. Or else you do have a server, but it is
configured properly. The live server is not configured properly.

According to the specs, the MIME type is definitive. If the MIME type
says it's text/html, then it is text/html. NB: the ".css" on a url is
not a file extension; there are no file extensions in a url, so only
the MIME type has any meaning.
And it can't be a server problem because then IE wouldn't work
properly either?

MSIE breaks the interworking specs in this regard. Instead of
accepting the MIME type as definitive, it sniffs the content and tries
to second guess it. In this case, IE violates the spec and gives you
what you want, but not what the MIME type says. Mozilla does not
violate the spec in this case, and thus the results are not what you want.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Brian wrote:

According to the specs, the MIME type is definitive. If the MIME type
says it's text/html, then it is text/html. NB: the ".css" on a url is
not a file extension; there are no file extensions in a url,
Right. Of course, you know and I know that it probably derives from a
filename extension on the server; but that *should* have no
significance for an HTTP *client*, as you rightly pointed out.
so only the MIME type has any meaning.
To the client, indeed. It *might* be used on the server to deduce the
appropriate MIME type to send - the server in question here is
evidently getting it wrong.

And it can't be a server problem because then IE wouldn't work
properly either?

MSIE breaks the interworking specs in this regard. Instead of
accepting the MIME type as definitive, it sniffs the content and tries
to second guess it. In this case, IE violates the spec and gives you
what you want, but not what the MIME type says.

Exactly.
Mozilla does not violate the spec in this case, and thus the results
are not what you want.

Well, I'm sorry to say that in relation to CSS files, Mozilla too
disregards this rule, *when* operating in quirks mode, and that the
disregard is deliberate, see:
http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-deve...quirklist.html

As you'd expect, some clue-impaired designers then "solve" their
problem by removing their DOCTYPE declaration in order to get quirks
mode...

Opera also has an option (enabled by default) to second-guess the MIME
type. One may well blame all of this misbehaviour on IE for creating
the problem in the first place, so it's hard to know just where to put
the blame.

hope this helps.

[Brian]

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Brian wrote:

the ".css" on a url is not a file extension; there are no file
extensions in a url, so only the MIME type has any meaning.

To the client, indeed. It *might* be used on the server to deduce
the appropriate MIME type to send

Of course. I opted for conciseness at the expense of being thorough.
Perhaps I made the wrong choice.

MSIE breaks the interworking specs in this regard. Instead of
accepting the MIME type as definitive, it sniffs the content and
tries to second guess it. In this case, IE violates the spec and
gives you what you want, but not what the MIME type says. Mozilla does not violate the spec in this case

Well, I'm sorry to say that in relation to CSS files, Mozilla too
disregards this rule,

I did say "in this case." The op's server sends a MIME type for css of
"text/html". Evidently, Firefox does not "fixup" (read: second guess)
text/html to text/css. Judging from the op's test case, Firefox only
fixes up text/plain to text/css. Mind you, I've not run test cases
myself, I'm only deducing from the op and what I read from Mozilla's site.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven Brian:

I did say "in this case." The op's server sends a MIME type for css
of "text/html". Evidently, Firefox does not "fixup" (read: second
guess) text/html to text/css. Judging from the op's test case,
Firefox only fixes up text/plain to text/css. Mind you, I've not
run test cases myself, I'm only deducing from the op and what I
read from Mozilla's site.

Moz/FF also 'fix up' css when sent as "application/x-pointplus"
as one of my ISPs can't seem to get corrected.

We've been leaving regular reminders in their help and suggestions
forum for a couple of years now...

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Brian wrote:

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Brian wrote:

the ".css" on a url is not a file extension; there are no file
extensions in a url, so only the MIME type has any meaning.

To the client, indeed. It *might* be used on the server to deduce
the appropriate MIME type to send

Of course. I opted for conciseness at the expense of being thorough.
Perhaps I made the wrong choice.

No offence intended; this is an area which quite a number of newcomers
seem to get confused about, and I had the idea that going into just a
bit more explicit detail might be helpful. But I could be wrong...

all the best.

[Andrew Thompson]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:57:28 -0400, Brian wrote:

You're sending the css with the wrong MIME type.

As y'all may (or may not) have noticed, I used a
Java based signed applet* to check the MIME type
of the CSS being delivered from the OP's servers.

* <http://mindprod.com/jgloss/mime.html>

Since I heard of this applet though, I wondered
how you folks normally check a MIME type?
[ The applet requires Java (obviously) and the
user must accept the CMP (Roedy Green) security
certificate, which I think throws some people. ]

Do you have a specially enabled browser or
browser plug-in. Stand-alone network type tools?
Some web site (that I apparantly missed) that will
check MIME types given an URL?

Ultimately I could code something myself that
accepts the address of the resource in the URL
parameters, checks it and returns pure HTML to
the client. But I have a distinct feeling it is
so easy it must already have been done..

[ I concede that the CSS validator was a pretty
good *indicator* of a problem, but I would prefer
something that stated explicitly what the MIME
type was.. ]

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Andrew Thompson wrote:

Since I heard of this applet though, I wondered
how you folks normally check a MIME type?
lynx -head -dump http://whatever
Stand-alone network type tools?

It's a possibility, sure.

[Steve Pugh]

Andrew Thompson <Se********@www.invalid> wrote:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Do you have a specially enabled browser or
browser plug-in.
Yes. Out of the box Opera and Mozilla both have this function.
Stand-alone network type tools?
Yes. Telnet will do the trick, or so I've read I've not used telnet
for ten years.
Some web site (that I apparantly missed) that will
check MIME types given an URL?

Yes. http://www.delorie.com/web/headers.html

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Andrew Thompson]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:31:30 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

..I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

lynx -head -dump http://whatever

Tah. I have Lynx, I'll check it out.

It might be handy to be able give an
URL that shows the OP, like the HTML/CSS
validators, that a document (or in this
case document type) is invalid..

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

[Andrew Thompson]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:11:34 +0100, Steve Pugh wrote:

Some web site (that I apparantly missed) that will
check MIME types given an URL?

Yes. http://www.delorie.com/web/headers.html

Now *that's* what I'm talking about, the
inbuilt tools are great, but I was after
something that will do it by link in any
old browser.

Thanks.

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

[Brian]

Andrew Thompson wrote:

As y'all may (or may not) have noticed, I used a
Java based signed applet* to check the MIME type
of the CSS being delivered from the OP's servers.
That's a bit of overkill, isn't it?
Since I heard of this applet though, I wondered
how you folks normally check a MIME type?
All the time, though usually I'm checking my cache-related headers,
and happen to read the Content-Type while I'm there.
Do you have a specially enabled browser or
browser plug-in. Stand-alone network type tools?
Some web site (that I apparantly missed) that will
check MIME types given an URL?

Live HTTP Headers, available for Mozilla browsers.

http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Brian]

Steve Pugh wrote:

Andrew Thompson wrote:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Do you have a specially enabled browser or browser plug-in.

Out of the box Opera and Mozilla both have this function.

I think you need the Live HTTP Headers to check the mime type, which
gives the "live" view as well as the "Headers" tab in the page info
window.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Brian]

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Brian wrote:

I opted for conciseness at the expense of being thorough.
Perhaps I made the wrong choice.

No offence intended;

Oh, none taken. I was being sincere! :-) If I spent more time on my
posts, instead of cranking through them, I might produce more helpful
advice.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Steve Pugh]

Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:

Steve Pugh wrote:

Andrew Thompson wrote:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Do you have a specially enabled browser or browser plug-in.

Out of the box Opera and Mozilla both have this function.

I think you need the Live HTTP Headers to check the mime type, which
gives the "live" view as well as the "Headers" tab in the page info
window.

Live HTTP Headers is a Mozilla thing isn't it?
I don't have it installed but when I went to the OP's stylesheet:
http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/ve...ets/styles.css and hit
CTRL+I I get the page info box which said "Type: text/html" which
indicates the discussed problem perfectly. Maybe for more detailed
analysis the extra Live HTTP Headers is needed but not here.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Spartanicus]

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Do you have a specially enabled browser or
browser plug-in.

Yes. Out of the box Opera and Mozilla both have this function.

Don't use Opera for this, it may substitute a server mime type, if it
does it reports the substituted mime type as "MIME type from server".

--
Spartanicus

[Brian]

Steve Pugh wrote:

Brian wrote:

I think you need the Live HTTP Headers to check the mime type
Live HTTP Headers is a Mozilla thing isn't it? I don't have it
installed but when I went to the OP's stylesheet:
http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/ve...ets/styles.css and hit
CTRL+I I get the page info box which said "Type: text/html" which
indicates the discussed problem perfectly.

My bad. I forgot that the content-type and charset headers are on the
first tab of the Ctrl-I (Mozilla) or Ctrl-J (Firefox) page info box.

<grumble>
Why did the Mozilla folks change this keyboard shortcut?! It really
burns me when they do stupid things like that. I was quite accustomed
to Ctrl-I for page info, and now that opens up my sidebar. Not very
intuitive.
</grumble>
Maybe for more detailed analysis the extra Live HTTP Headers is
needed but not here.

Exactly. Live HTTP Headers let's you see all request and response
headers for any page, plus you can open a window and watch the headers
in real time.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Stephen Poley]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:21:42 GMT, Andrew Thompson
<Se********@www.invalid> wrote:

Since I heard of this applet though, I wondered
how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Opera: "info" button on the hotlist pane (F4 to activate if it's not
already visible).

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Steve Pugh]

Spartanicus <[e-mail]> wrote:

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

Do you have a specially enabled browser or
browser plug-in.

Yes. Out of the box Opera and Mozilla both have this function.

Don't use Opera for this, it may substitute a server mime type, if it
does it reports the substituted mime type as "MIME type from server".

Only if you have "Determine action by file extension if MIME type is
unreliable" checked in your preferences. Remembering to switch it off
when starting a debugging exercise, if you have it enabled (it is by
default), is another matter.

IIRC only text/plain, text/html and application/octet-stream are
classed as being unreliable, everything else is always treated
according to its content-type. Of course those are the ones most
likely to need debugging as those are the ones servers most often spew
out incorrectly (which is of course why Opera doesn't trust in them in
the first place). :-o

If enough people hassle Opera about this they may change the info
display like they did with the character encoding which now reports
both the one sent by the server and the one used by Opera.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Tim]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:21:42 GMT,
Andrew Thompson <Se********@www.invalid> posted:

I wondered how you folks normally check a MIME type?

I found a little HTTP tool called "ViewHEAD" from
<http://www.pc-tools.net/> to be quite a useful little gadget.

It's a Windows program that lets you enter in a URI and it shows you the
HTTP headers from the server. I find it less painful than messing with
Lynx, or some of the plug-ins I've seen for browsers.

--
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