I've seen a few attractive multi-column sites whose geometry is based
on pure CSS-P, but they're what you might call "code afficionado"
sites, where the subject matter of the site is "coding practices." (One
example of this is alistapart.com.) However, the project/development
realities for small boutique sites are completely different from those
of large commercial or institutional sites -- and I was curious to see
what coding approaches are currently in use at the latter. So I made up
a list of big commercial sites off the top of my head, visited each
site on the list, and looked at their code. The quick summaries of what
I found are below. (I looked at home pages only. Add ".com" to each
name for site location.)
Even if you just skim through the results, please notice at the end of
this post: my very brief comment, and my two questions coming out of
all this.
---------------------
_Amazon_
No doctype.
CSS styles and JavaScripts defined in head and body.
Body a mix of absolute positioned CSS, tables, and JavaScripts.
---------------------
_Apple_
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Mostly table code; some CSS; inline JavaScripts.
---------------------
_BBC_
<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd">
Tables; CSS; CSS classes applied to table elements.
---------------------
_CNN_
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html
lang="en">
Tables; CSS; CSS classes applied to table elements.
---------------------
_Ebay_
Unbelievably long and complex code: loading the home page loads 31 (!)
additional text files into the cache (one is a CSS file, the others are
all JavaScript files). HTML file features:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<HTML XMLNS:IE>
Mostly table code with old-fashioned tags like <font...> etc. Many tag
constructions like <BR><BR><BR> and |
Numerous inline JavaScripts.
The only external CSS file ("homepage.css") is incredibly short and
completely incomprehensible to me. Here are its entire contents:
@media all {
IE\:HOMEPAGE {behavior:url(#default#homepage)}
}
---------------------
_Google_ (simple search)
No DTD. No external linked files. Extensive inline JavaScripts.
Uses table code with old-fashioned tags like <font...> etc.; some
inline CSS.
_Google_ (advanced seach)
No DTD. Code similar to simple-search, except more CSS defined in head.
---------------------
_IBM_
<!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM
"http://www.ibm.com/data/dtd/v11/ibmxhtml1-transitional.dtd">
Mostly table code, with some CSS classes applied to table elements;
uses code constructions like |
---------------------
_Microsoft_ No DTD. Mostly table code, with CSS styles applied to
table elements.
_Slate_ No DTD. Mostly tables; some CSS. Weird code.
---------------------
_NYTimes_
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Note linked script name: <script src="/js/csssniff.js"></script>
Table code, use tags like <br><br> and <font face...
---------------------
Summary - what I found:
Every large commercial site I looked at used table code, not CSS-P, to
define its page geometry. (Amazon was a partial exception; they used
both.) All used CSS to define typographic styles, and sometimes other
things, at least to some extent; although <font... and other deprecated
tags were also common.
Two questions:
Large sites typically have separate job functions for Web developers
(coders) and designers. Logically, I have to assume that at least
*some* of these sites have knowledgeable developer teams; and for that
matter, even graphical editing programs like Dreamweaver have
increasing levels of CSS support. So why these results? Specifically:
1. If, as the regulars in this newsgroup believe, CSS is clearly
superior to table code for defining page layout, why are *none* of
these sites relying on CSS for that purpose?
2. Can anybody provide links to any large commercial or institutional
sites (whose subject matter is not "coding practices") that *do* use
CSS to define their page geometry, so that I can look at their code?
These questions are not rhetorical arguments-in-disguise; I really
haven't made up my mind yet, and I'm certainly not trying to start an
argument. I look forward to your replies.
Jul 20 '05
55  5087 
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes: JRS: In article <OxJBc.1151$4D4.1104@newsfe3-gui>, seen in news:comp.in
fosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Barry Pearson <news@childsupportana
lysis.co.uk> posted at Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:44:45 :I hope you accept that layout-tables are not deprecated. They will be valid
with Strict documents for decades to come.
So will <blockquote><p>This text is indented</p></blockquote> (in
situations where you aren't quoting someone saying 'This text is
indented'.
SGML validity doesn't imply meeting the specification, and the
specification's recommendation against using layout tables is exactly
as strong as its recommendation against using deprecated elements.
Therefore, ISTM that there should be (and that it would be easy in all
respects to add) a new mark-up GRID; it would behave visually just like
TABLE, but would not carry the same implication. It could use the
existing TD TH & TR, or new GD GH GR.
In that case, GH is almost certainly unnecessary - what would a Grid
Header be? Combining GH and GD into GC (Grid Cell) would make more
sense. However:
Rather than adding GRID (which would of course start off with no
browser support) why not use <div style='display: table;'> (or better
<div class='grid'> with appropriate stylesheet) which already has
browser support.
--
Chris
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pi*******************************@ppepc56.ph .gla.ac.uk>... Fortunately, this apparent [Microsoft] attempt to completely discredit CSS for all
time was a failure :-}
Presumably M$oft had an Evil Alternative Proprietary Standard to use
instead (anyone remember Blackbird ?). Any idea what it was, and how
ugly it was ?
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:41:54 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote: ...there should be (and that it would be easy in all
respects to add) a new mark-up GRID...
You have missed just about every part of presentational discussion that
has been in ciwas through the last five years; right?
--
Rex
JRS: In article <87************@dinopsis.dur.ac.uk>, seen in news:comp.
infosystems. www.authoring.stylesheets, Chris Morris
<c.********@durham.ac.uk> posted at Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:32:41 : Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes:
Therefore, ISTM that there should be (and that it would be easy in all
respects to add) a new mark-up GRID; it would behave visually just like
TABLE, but would not carry the same implication. It could use the
existing TD TH & TR, or new GD GH GR.
In that case, GH is almost certainly unnecessary - what would a Grid
Header be? Combining GH and GD into GC (Grid Cell) would make more
sense. However:
A GH would be just as useful as a TH, and rendered similarly. Default
TH here is bold centred; in a grid of entities a bold centred header can
be equally useful. The point is that GRID would exactly match the
functionality of TABLE, except for the spelling of the tags; it would
then use the same implementation code, and be cheap.
Rather than adding GRID (which would of course start off with no
browser support)
Accepted, naturally; the suggestion would best have been implemented in
the mid- or late- nineties.
why not use <div style='display: table;'> (or better
<div class='grid'> with appropriate stylesheet) which already has
browser support.
Perhaps so : but as an academic you will realise that the more benefit
that is obtained from a given amount of learning the better. If table-
based layout is functionally adequate but semantically unsound, what
need to learn a whole new set of features not otherwise yet required?
.... except to employ more academics, I suppose.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
I find MiniTrue useful for viewing/searching/altering files, at a DOS prompt;
free, DOS/Win/UNIX, <URL:http://www.idiotsdelight.net/minitrue/> Update hope?
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes: infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Chris Morris
<c.********@durham.ac.uk> posted at Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:32:41 :Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> writes: Therefore, ISTM that there should be (and that it would be easy in all
respects to add) a new mark-up GRID; it would behave visually just like
TABLE, but would not carry the same implication. It could use the
existing TD TH & TR, or new GD GH GR.
In that case, GH is almost certainly unnecessary - what would a Grid
Header be? Combining GH and GD into GC (Grid Cell) would make more
sense. However:
A GH would be just as useful as a TH, and rendered similarly. Default
TH here is bold centred; in a grid of entities a bold centred header can
be equally useful.
If a header is being useful then the content being marked up is almost
certainly Genuine Tabular Data (TM) and so <table> is perfectly
appropriate.
The point is that GRID would exactly match the
functionality of TABLE, except for the spelling of the tags; it would
then use the same implementation code, and be cheap.
It would use the same implementation code in certain browsers,
anyway. I can think of several browser (families) that would want to
have different displays for GRID and for TABLE.
If we ever get a browser that does interesting things with data tables
[1] (selectively hide/show rows or columns, automatically provide
totals, averages, and other statistics for numeric lines, etc) then
it'd want to display them differently too.
[1] Stopping it doing the same thing to layout tables is perhaps more
of a challenge.
Rather than adding GRID (which would of course start off with no
browser support)
Accepted, naturally; the suggestion would best have been implemented in
the mid- or late- nineties.
Technically it could be stuck on as a module for one of the recent
XHTML recommendations, but decent browser support for that isn't
likely to come quickly, and the display algorithm would need the CSS
rules to tell it to be a grid, so using <div> seems more logical.
why not use <div style='display: table;'> (or better
<div class='grid'> with appropriate stylesheet) which already has
browser support.
Perhaps so : but as an academic you will realise that the more benefit
that is obtained from a given amount of learning the better.
Provided you don't then run into local maxima and need to unlearn
things to progress further, yes.
If table- based layout is functionally adequate but semantically
unsound, what need to learn a whole new set of features not
otherwise yet required?
There are useful things which can be done with CSS layout that cannot
be done with table layout [1]. There are certainly useful things that
are far easier with CSS layout than table layout. And if one is using
CSS for colours, fonts, etc. (as is always a good practice) then it's
not a whole new set of features to learn, but simply an extension of
already known ones.
Also, under certain conditions, table-based layout is not functionally
adequate - precisely because there are browsers that should treat
TABLE and GRID differently.
[1] With current IE's lack of support for display: table, the reverse
is also true - for now - in a minority of cases. I can't imagine IE7
not fixing this, when (if) it finally gets released, however.
--
Chris
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:21:43 GMT, Jonas Smithson wrote:
[cut] 2. Can anybody provide links to any large commercial or institutional
sites (whose subject matter is not "coding practices") that *do* use
CSS to define their page geometry, so that I can look at their code?
Jonas, after reading the whole interesting thread, I have one site for you:
the site of the ministry of Health, Welfare and Sports in The Netherlands
switched to XHTML 1.0 Strict/CSS design completely in January 2004, see http://www.minvws.nl/. The site uses the Tridion CMS at the backend.
All governmental sites in Holland will probably try to pursue this coming
years.
Greetz, Bog This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
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