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Opera and refreshing

P: n/a
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up (the first 'justified' text div is seen
as one long line of text, tearing up the rest of the page as well).

Is there someone who can tell me what principle is involved here?
What should I be aware of?

Thanks for taking the time, and good Easter!
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #1
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60 Replies


P: n/a
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up (the first 'justified' text div is
seen
as one long line of text, tearing up the rest of the page as well).

Is there someone who can tell me what principle is involved here?
What should I be aware of?

Thanks for taking the time, and good Easter!

Set an explicit width for the div containing the pic. When I edited to have

<div class="imagebox2" style="width: 215px;">

it behaved properly. You may have to set up classed divs in the style in
order to ensure that you can set this for each image you use, or you can
do it inline as I have above.
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up (the first 'justified' text div is
seen
as one long line of text, tearing up the rest of the page as well).

Is there someone who can tell me what principle is involved here?
What should I be aware of?

Thanks for taking the time, and good Easter!

Set an explicit width for the div containing the pic. When I edited to have

<div class="imagebox2" style="width: 215px;">

it behaved properly. You may have to set up classed divs in the style in
order to ensure that you can set this for each image you use, or you can
do it inline as I have above.
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:02:23 -0400, Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:

<div class="imagebox2" style="width: 215px;">


Minor correction - in this case width should be 197px (image width plus
1px border each side).

While I'm posting again, a few quick general comments, if that's ok.

1) Please do not set screen font-size in px. Use ems or %. Users may need
to enlarge text to read it, and your method makes that impossible for most.

2) When declaring something like "padding:10px 0px 10px 0px;", you do not
need a measurement on 0. Also, in this case since top=bottom and
left=right, you can simply state "padding:10px 0;".
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:02:23 -0400, Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:

<div class="imagebox2" style="width: 215px;">


Minor correction - in this case width should be 197px (image width plus
1px border each side).

While I'm posting again, a few quick general comments, if that's ok.

1) Please do not set screen font-size in px. Use ems or %. Users may need
to enlarge text to read it, and your method makes that impossible for most.

2) When declaring something like "padding:10px 0px 10px 0px;", you do not
need a measurement on 0. Also, in this case since top=bottom and
left=right, you can simply state "padding:10px 0;".
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?
(the first 'justified' text div is seen


Incorrect markup, it's a paragraph.

You should publish under a strict doctype, code is clean enough,
shouldn't take much work.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?
(the first 'justified' text div is seen


Incorrect markup, it's a paragraph.

You should publish under a strict doctype, code is clean enough,
shouldn't take much work.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:10:22 -0400, Neal wrote:
While I'm posting again, a few quick general comments, if that's ok.

1) Please do not set screen font-size in px. Use ems or %. Users may need
to enlarge text to read it, and your method makes that impossible for most.

2) When declaring something like "padding:10px 0px 10px 0px;", you do not
need a measurement on 0. Also, in this case since top=bottom and
left=right, you can simply state "padding:10px 0;".


Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...

Your second comment is about short hand declarations? This too is a subject
I read about, but do not fully comprehend. Are you saying I put in too many
specifics? Why is that bad? It makes the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it needs
to be, but only slightly.
Or is there another reason for using shorthand?

Again: thank you for taking time and trouble over my problem.

Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:10:22 -0400, Neal wrote:
While I'm posting again, a few quick general comments, if that's ok.

1) Please do not set screen font-size in px. Use ems or %. Users may need
to enlarge text to read it, and your method makes that impossible for most.

2) When declaring something like "padding:10px 0px 10px 0px;", you do not
need a measurement on 0. Also, in this case since top=bottom and
left=right, you can simply state "padding:10px 0;".


Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...

Your second comment is about short hand declarations? This too is a subject
I read about, but do not fully comprehend. Are you saying I put in too many
specifics? Why is that bad? It makes the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it needs
to be, but only slightly.
Or is there another reason for using shorthand?

Again: thank you for taking time and trouble over my problem.

Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:13:52 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?


Opera 7, build 2749.
(the first 'justified' text div is seen
Incorrect markup, it's a paragraph.


OK.
You should publish under a strict doctype, code is clean enough,


The right use of doc types is something that I don't understand at the
moment.

Thanks for your comments. I will try and understand them (tomorrow: it is
very late where I am in Europe) and change my css accordingly.

You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,
but do you know what I mean and do you have any explanation for it?

Thanks, and good night/day.

--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:13:52 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

I will look into the cause of the mess, but for now am really curious:
what does refreshing have to do with it?

Referring URL:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/index.htm

then click on 'bibliografie' (first button in navbar).

If that is OK, refresh, or go back Home and click bibliografie again:
here the whole page gets messed up
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?


Opera 7, build 2749.
(the first 'justified' text div is seen
Incorrect markup, it's a paragraph.


OK.
You should publish under a strict doctype, code is clean enough,


The right use of doc types is something that I don't understand at the
moment.

Thanks for your comments. I will try and understand them (tomorrow: it is
very late where I am in Europe) and change my css accordingly.

You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,
but do you know what I mean and do you have any explanation for it?

Thanks, and good night/day.

--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?
Opera 7, build 2749.


What version number? Build 2749 seems pretty old, version 7.21 is build
3218, the current release version is 7.23 IIRC, time to update your
copy.
You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,
Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?
but do you know what I mean


How can I if I can't replicate it.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?
Opera 7, build 2749.


What version number? Build 2749 seems pretty old, version 7.21 is build
3218, the current release version is 7.23 IIRC, time to update your
copy.
You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,
Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?
but do you know what I mean


How can I if I can't replicate it.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...
Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.

Now you really know what you're doing as far as this goes.
Your second comment is about short hand declarations? This too is a
subject
I read about, but do not fully comprehend. Are you saying I put in too
many
specifics? Why is that bad? It makes the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it
needs
to be, but only slightly.
Or is there another reason for using shorthand?
I mentioned two separate issues. Neither is "wrong" but also neither is
ideal. If you make this change in every case in your CSS you save maybe
1Kb at most, but think about this: you download info in packets. The few
bytes you save might eliminate the need for an extra packet of data to be
downloaded.
Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?


In this case, the browser apparently forgets the inherent width and sets
the div to 100% width as default. The first load of the page, the browser
calculates the intended width for you, but on reload it doesn't fix it
anymore.

I honestly don't have a clue as to exactly why. I'd like to learn why
myself. But it's always a good idea to set a width in the CSS whenever you
float.

Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...
Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.

Now you really know what you're doing as far as this goes.
Your second comment is about short hand declarations? This too is a
subject
I read about, but do not fully comprehend. Are you saying I put in too
many
specifics? Why is that bad? It makes the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it
needs
to be, but only slightly.
Or is there another reason for using shorthand?
I mentioned two separate issues. Neither is "wrong" but also neither is
ideal. If you make this change in every case in your CSS you save maybe
1Kb at most, but think about this: you download info in packets. The few
bytes you save might eliminate the need for an extra packet of data to be
downloaded.
Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?


In this case, the browser apparently forgets the inherent width and sets
the div to 100% width as default. The first load of the page, the browser
calculates the intended width for you, but on reload it doesn't fix it
anymore.

I honestly don't have a clue as to exactly why. I'd like to learn why
myself. But it's always a good idea to set a width in the CSS whenever you
float.

Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:01:52 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
The right use of doc types is something that I don't understand at the
moment.


A transitional doctype is handy when you're upgrading a page originally
coded in, say, HTML 3.2, because deprecated markup is OK in transitional.

However, for new pages, it's wisest to not use deprecated markup and use a
strict DTD. The doctype declaration is supposed to specify to the browser
what exact HTML you're using so that things are rendered as you wish. In
practice, it's not so simple. IE, as an example, will not render certain
things according to specs unless you use a strict HTML 4.01 doctype.

See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.2 for more
information on this topic.
Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:01:52 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
The right use of doc types is something that I don't understand at the
moment.


A transitional doctype is handy when you're upgrading a page originally
coded in, say, HTML 3.2, because deprecated markup is OK in transitional.

However, for new pages, it's wisest to not use deprecated markup and use a
strict DTD. The doctype declaration is supposed to specify to the browser
what exact HTML you're using so that things are rendered as you wish. In
practice, it's not so simple. IE, as an example, will not render certain
things according to specs unless you use a strict HTML 4.01 doctype.

See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.2 for more
information on this topic.
Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:22:48 -0400, Neal wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as
soon as I really know what I am doing...


Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Are you saying I put in too many specifics? Why is that bad? It makes
the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it needs to be, but only slightly. Or is
there another reason for using shorthand?


I mentioned two separate issues. Neither is "wrong" but also neither is
ideal. If you make this change in every case in your CSS you save maybe
1Kb at most, but think about this: you download info in packets. The few
bytes you save might eliminate the need for an extra packet of data to
be downloaded.
Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?


In this case, the browser apparently forgets the inherent width and sets
the div to 100% width as default. The first load of the page, the
browser calculates the intended width for you, but on reload it doesn't
fix it anymore.


Thank you for your very clear answers.
Now that I know setting font sizes properly is that easy, I will try and
get into the habit of doing so .

Your refreshing explanation makes sense.

Thanks!

--
Groet, Adriana. [throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:22:48 -0400, Neal wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as
soon as I really know what I am doing...


Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Are you saying I put in too many specifics? Why is that bad? It makes
the ccs sheet 'heavier' than it needs to be, but only slightly. Or is
there another reason for using shorthand?


I mentioned two separate issues. Neither is "wrong" but also neither is
ideal. If you make this change in every case in your CSS you save maybe
1Kb at most, but think about this: you download info in packets. The few
bytes you save might eliminate the need for an extra packet of data to
be downloaded.
Have you any idea why refreshing makes a difference?


In this case, the browser apparently forgets the inherent width and sets
the div to 100% width as default. The first load of the page, the
browser calculates the intended width for you, but on reload it doesn't
fix it anymore.


Thank you for your very clear answers.
Now that I know setting font sizes properly is that easy, I will try and
get into the habit of doing so .

Your refreshing explanation makes sense.

Thanks!

--
Groet, Adriana. [throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:30:46 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?


Opera 7, build 2749.


What version number? Build 2749 seems pretty old, version 7.21 is build
3218, the current release version is 7.23 IIRC, time to update your
copy.
You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,


Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?


Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down. It is perhaps not an elegant solution, but it seems
to work in both IE6 and Moz 1.6. (see my message in this group on 5th of
april Message-ID: <vs***************@www.translatoria.com>)
I'll give it for anything better, though!

Much thanks.

--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:30:46 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I'm not getting that with Opera 7.5p3, what version are you using?


Opera 7, build 2749.


What version number? Build 2749 seems pretty old, version 7.21 is build
3218, the current release version is 7.23 IIRC, time to update your
copy.
You do not have the refreshing phenomenon, if I understand you correctly,


Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?


Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down. It is perhaps not an elegant solution, but it seems
to work in both IE6 and Moz 1.6. (see my message in this group on 5th of
april Message-ID: <vs***************@www.translatoria.com>)
I'll give it for anything better, though!

Much thanks.

--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...


Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:54:16 +0200, A.Translator
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Thanks for your help and comments.
I am aware of the font-size issue, and will do something about it as soon
as I really know what I am doing...


Remember this - set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, "A.Translator"
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

Snipped

I don't see any problem with Opera 7.23. Time to update?
Jul 20 '05 #24

P: n/a
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, "A.Translator"
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

Snipped

I don't see any problem with Opera 7.23. Time to update?
Jul 20 '05 #25

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:26:22 +1000, Alex Bell <ab****@tassie.net.au> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, "A.Translator"
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

Snipped

I don't see any problem with Opera 7.23. Time to update?


I run O 7.23. And he really should have posted this link:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm

View, reload.
Jul 20 '05 #26

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:26:22 +1000, Alex Bell <ab****@tassie.net.au> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0200, "A.Translator"
<ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
I have been struggling with a page that is based on a table structure
(because that is all I am feeling comfortable with at the moment) styled
with css.

One of the problems I run in to is Opera (Opera 7 in my case).
The weird thing is: viewing the page through Opera's eyes the first time
around is OK, but after refreshing, the page gets messed up badly.

Snipped

I don't see any problem with Opera 7.23. Time to update?


I run O 7.23. And he really should have posted this link:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm

View, reload.
Jul 20 '05 #27

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:36 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.


Well, that's ok too, I suppose. They are basically equivalent as far as
I'm aware.
Jul 20 '05 #28

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:36 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.


Well, that's ok too, I suppose. They are basically equivalent as far as
I'm aware.
Jul 20 '05 #29

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:27:38 -0400, Neal wrote:
I run O 7.23. And he really should have posted this link:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm

View, reload.


I have followed your advise. (Also updated to O 7.23)Things seem better,
but not perfect: When I now view
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm reloading leaves the structure
in tact, but decreasing the view to less than 100% (90% or 80% for
instance) "eats" up the top of my navbar buttons...

I read your explanation of doc types with interest and will see what effect
a strict doc type will have. There is just too much to learn!

Thanks a lot, though.
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #30

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:27:38 -0400, Neal wrote:
I run O 7.23. And he really should have posted this link:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm

View, reload.


I have followed your advise. (Also updated to O 7.23)Things seem better,
but not perfect: When I now view
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm reloading leaves the structure
in tact, but decreasing the view to less than 100% (90% or 80% for
instance) "eats" up the top of my navbar buttons...

I read your explanation of doc types with interest and will see what effect
a strict doc type will have. There is just too much to learn!

Thanks a lot, though.
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #31

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?


Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #32

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Not with Opera 7.5p3, and also not with v7.21, but with 7.21 it does
exhibit another issue which is caused by a stylesheet oddity:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

What were you trying to do there?


Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #33

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm reloading leaves the structure
in tact, but decreasing the view to less than 100% (90% or 80% for
instance) "eats" up the top of my navbar buttons...


That's normal, don't worry about it.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #34

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~ochrid/Henk/biblio.htm reloading leaves the structure
in tact, but decreasing the view to less than 100% (90% or 80% for
instance) "eats" up the top of my navbar buttons...


That's normal, don't worry about it.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #35

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:05:51 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
That's normal, don't worry about it.


Thanks for reassuring me. I will try and change the ul as you suggest.
Many thanks for your kind help and support.
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #36

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:05:51 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
That's normal, don't worry about it.


Thanks for reassuring me. I will try and change the ul as you suggest.
Many thanks for your kind help and support.
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #37

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:02:41 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets?
Or am I asking too much?
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #38

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:02:41 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets?
Or am I asking too much?
--
Groet, Adriana.
[throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #39

P: n/a
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:36 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.


Well, that's ok too, I suppose. They are basically equivalent as far as
I'm aware.


In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #40

P: n/a
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:36 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote:
set body as font-size: 100%; and if you adjust any fonts
anywhere, do it in ems.


Why not just use percentages thoughout? Avoids the need to set a body
size at all.


Well, that's ok too, I suppose. They are basically equivalent as far as
I'm aware.


In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #41

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:18:55 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.


*shrug* I like ems... :)
Jul 20 '05 #42

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:18:55 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.


*shrug* I like ems... :)
Jul 20 '05 #43

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets?
Or am I asking too much?


In that case I've misunderstood you, please explain again why you used
this code:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #44

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
Without forcing the ul to the left, the bullets disappear in IE, and the
image gets pushed down.


Wrong way to achieve that, use:

list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets?
Or am I asking too much?


In that case I've misunderstood you, please explain again why you used
this code:

ul {
position:relative;left:-2em;
}

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #45

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:58:42 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets? Or am I asking too much?


In that case I've misunderstood you, please explain again why you used
this code:

ul { position:relative;left:-2em; }


I used it because: - I want bullets of some sort - just using bullets was
OK in Mozilla and Opera, but not in IE6: the latter browser does
something interpreting the width of the ul, and makes it look as though it
is indented ( I am using layman's words, do not know the proper
terminology).

- therefore (?) the ul became to wide for IE to contain both UL and image,
and it pushed the image down, as show in this
illustration:http://www.xs4all.nl/~hogen/test/.

- someone in this group suggest the position relative idea, with a
negative left margin.

- it seems to work (for me) in Opera 7, Moz 1.6 and IE6.

So I was happy.

for a while ;-)

Your comments teach me a lot. If you have a better way of achieving what I
want, I will be very happy to try. (I want: justified paragraph at the top,
inderneath on the left an ul , on the right an image).
--
Groet, Adriana. [throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #46

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:58:42 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:
list-style-type:none;margin:0;padding:0

to get rid of the bullets, then adjust the left margin to position it
with respect to it's container's left edge.


OK, what if I want the bullets? Or am I asking too much?


In that case I've misunderstood you, please explain again why you used
this code:

ul { position:relative;left:-2em; }


I used it because: - I want bullets of some sort - just using bullets was
OK in Mozilla and Opera, but not in IE6: the latter browser does
something interpreting the width of the ul, and makes it look as though it
is indented ( I am using layman's words, do not know the proper
terminology).

- therefore (?) the ul became to wide for IE to contain both UL and image,
and it pushed the image down, as show in this
illustration:http://www.xs4all.nl/~hogen/test/.

- someone in this group suggest the position relative idea, with a
negative left margin.

- it seems to work (for me) in Opera 7, Moz 1.6 and IE6.

So I was happy.

for a while ;-)

Your comments teach me a lot. If you have a better way of achieving what I
want, I will be very happy to try. (I want: justified paragraph at the top,
inderneath on the left an ul , on the right an image).
--
Groet, Adriana. [throw rubbish out if you want to reach me by e-mail]
Jul 20 '05 #47

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:22:03 -0400, Neal wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:18:55 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.


*shrug* I like ems... :)


In my case I started using em before I found
out about %.

When I discovered there was a problem, I also
found there was a single fix that could be
applied to the CSS files that all pages on
the site use - putting 100% in the base
stylesheet.

Now, I no longer have to worry/think about it.
(and have started to use % generally).

If I were to start a new project, it would
be % throughout (but I would probably still
add the 100% on body in any case, just in
case I forget! :)

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
Jul 20 '05 #48

P: n/a
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:22:03 -0400, Neal wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:18:55 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:
In theory they are. But as you know Win IE has a problem with ems (and
the 100% on body is a hack to workaround that problem). I just wonder
why so many people choose the ems + 100% hack over the % for
everything option.


*shrug* I like ems... :)


In my case I started using em before I found
out about %.

When I discovered there was a problem, I also
found there was a single fix that could be
applied to the CSS files that all pages on
the site use - putting 100% in the base
stylesheet.

Now, I no longer have to worry/think about it.
(and have started to use % generally).

If I were to start a new project, it would
be % throughout (but I would probably still
add the 100% on body in any case, just in
case I forget! :)

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
Jul 20 '05 #49

P: n/a
"A.Translator" <ad******************@yaBISHhoo.com> wrote:
In that case I've misunderstood you, please explain again why you used
this code:

ul { position:relative;left:-2em; }


I used it because: - I want bullets of some sort - just using bullets was
OK in Mozilla and Opera, but not in IE6: the latter browser does
something interpreting the width of the ul, and makes it look as though it
is indented ( I am using layman's words, do not know the proper
terminology).

- therefore (?) the ul became to wide for IE to contain both UL and image,
and it pushed the image down, as show in this
illustration:http://www.xs4all.nl/~hogen/test/.

- someone in this group suggest the position relative idea, with a
negative left margin.


Strange suggestion, I'd loose it. For me the image doesn't move down if
I take the ul css rule out in IE (5.5).

Another thing:

<div align="center">
<td><div><a href="#">biografie</a></div></td>
<div><p align="justify">
<div><div class="imagebox2">

None of these divs are needed.

A quick reworking of that page sans divs:

HTML: http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/biblio2.htm
CSS: http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.i.../HenkStyl2.htm

--
Spartanicus
Jul 20 '05 #50

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