Can somebody hold my hand?

[lostinspace]

After four+ years of using FrontPage in a limited capacity and having
created over 600 pages on my sites, I've finally (at least for the most
part) abandoned FP, to begin the process of converting those pages.
There are some things (a result of this transition,) which I'm not too
happy about :-(
I'm using 1st Page 2000. Much of my content is created in Word and then cut
and pasted from Word-to-NotePad-to-the page. Formerly with FP the paragraph
margins were "intact" when copying from NotePad and into the HTML. With 1st
Page this is not so and the paragraph open and closing must be added
manually, or at least with a keyboard created shortcut.
enough rambling. . . .

Thanks to the assistance of Brucie's position-thingy and another's
image-float wrap and a CSS book, I've settled on a beginning.
http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/lvnglgd.html

I'm left with three problems, which I'm hoping somebody may help with?
1) Upon opening the page and narrowing your browser, you'll see that the
text does not STAY wrapped around the floating index?
Is this an error I've made and/or is there a correction?
2) I've inserted four images through the long document. Is it possible
(rather than having the big void of space) to wrap the preceding lines
around the image while still retaining its current position on its present
line?
3) I don't believe the "<br>" I'm currently using in the h1 and h2's is
proper?
4) The background color in the menu displays as desired (behind the entire
menu) in IE, however in both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla Firebird the
background color only gets the top half of the menu?

Before I begin converting many pages over to this layout and progressing
further in the book I have with other designs? I'm hoping somebody can help
me to "understand the error of my ways?"
Thanks in advance

[Eric Bohlman]

"lostinspace" <lo*********@123-universe.com> wrote in
news:55**********************@newssvr28.news.prodi gy.com:

http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/lvnglgd.html

I'm left with three problems, which I'm hoping somebody may help with?
1) Upon opening the page and narrowing your browser, you'll see that
the text does not STAY wrapped around the floating index?
That's because it isn't actually floating, it's absolutely positioned.
Remember that absolute positioning pulls an element out of the layout flow
(i.e. the rest of the page is layed out as if the positioned element
didn't exist at all), and then sticks it in whatever position you
specified, which in this case will be on top of the right-hand side of the
first few lines of text. If you want text to flow around an element, use a
float rather than absolute positioning.

I changed your style declaration to:

#menu {
float:right;
WIDTH: 19ex;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #CCFFFF;
}
(you forgot the "#" before the color code, BTW)

and moved the menu div to where the empty "float" div was toward the
beginning of the body.
2) I've inserted four images through the long document. Is it possible
(rather than having the big void of space) to wrap the preceding lines
around the image while still retaining its current position on its
present line?
Yes: the reason it's not working for you is that you failed to put quote
marks around the values of your inline style attributes. They're getting
interpreted as 'style="float"' which is invalid and won't do anything.
Validating your HTML would have caught that right away (just as validating
your CSS would have caught the incorrect color codes).
3) I don't believe the "<br>" I'm currently using in the h1 and h2's
is proper?
It's valid HTML (<Hx> allows anything in %inline; as content, and <BR> is
an inline element), but it does result in a visually unbalanced look when
viewing in a large browser window.
4) The background color in the menu displays as desired (behind the
entire menu) in IE, however in both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla Firebird
the background color only gets the top half of the menu?

That was because you set the height of your menu div to something less than
the height of the actual contents, so the contents overflowed it. When
that happens the background color isn't supposed to overflow with them, but
IE is rather buggy.

[Eric Bohlman]

Eric Bohlman <eb******@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:Xn*******************************@130.133.1.4 :

4) The background color in the menu displays as desired (behind the
entire menu) in IE, however in both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla Firebird
the background color only gets the top half of the menu?

That was because you set the height of your menu div to something less
than the height of the actual contents, so the contents overflowed it.
When that happens the background color isn't supposed to overflow
with them, but IE is rather buggy.

Just to amplify a bit, when you're having problems like this a very useful
debugging technique is to temporarily specify a border for the element in
question; I just stuck a "border: 1px solid red;" in the rule for #menu and
right away I saw the problem; the red box was half the size of the menu
with the links spilling out the bottom.

[lostinspace]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Bohlman" <>
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Can somebody hold my hand?

"lostinspace" <> wrote in
:

http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/lvnglgd.html

I'm left with three problems, which I'm hoping somebody may help with?
1) Upon opening the page and narrowing your browser, you'll see that
the text does not STAY wrapped around the floating index?
That's because it isn't actually floating, it's absolutely positioned.
Remember that absolute positioning pulls an element out of the layout flow
(i.e. the rest of the page is layed out as if the positioned element
didn't exist at all), and then sticks it in whatever position you
specified, which in this case will be on top of the right-hand side of the
first few lines of text. If you want text to flow around an element, use

a float rather than absolute positioning.

I changed your style declaration to:

#menu {
float:right;
WIDTH: 19ex;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #CCFFFF;
}
(you forgot the "#" before the color code, BTW)

and moved the menu div to where the empty "float" div was toward the
beginning of the body.

2) I've inserted four images through the long document. Is it possible
(rather than having the big void of space) to wrap the preceding lines
around the image while still retaining its current position on its
present line?
Yes: the reason it's not working for you is that you failed to put quote
marks around the values of your inline style attributes. They're getting
interpreted as 'style="float"' which is invalid and won't do anything.
Validating your HTML would have caught that right away (just as validating
your CSS would have caught the incorrect color codes).

3) I don't believe the "<br>" I'm currently using in the h1 and h2's
is proper?

It's valid HTML (<Hx> allows anything in %inline; as content, and <BR> is
an inline element), but it does result in a visually unbalanced look when
viewing in a large browser window.

4) The background color in the menu displays as desired (behind the
entire menu) in IE, however in both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla Firebird
the background color only gets the top half of the menu?

That was because you set the height of your menu div to something less

than the height of the actual contents, so the contents overflowed it. When
that happens the background color isn't supposed to overflow with them, but IE is rather buggy.

Many thanks for your help Eric.
Although the errors you have caught are correct, they only move me back
further in the line of my goal :-(

"and moved the menu div to where the empty "float" div was toward the beginning of the body."

The entire reason for using the layout as was originally designed (with the
open divide [at least I'm assuming that] was so that the SE's and Lynx will
view the page content prior to viewing the menu's. It appears to me that if
I swap the old positions (empty div, top of body, and menu div, bottom of
body) than the menu will likely come up first :-(
Not what I desire. Very bad for SE page page return results.

Unfortunately, no matter what I do or what browser I use, am I able to get
the menu background to view properly.

I tried the change you suggested:

#menu {
float:right;
WIDTH: 19ex;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #CCFFFF;
}

without the div change and in 1st page, Netscape and IE and they all failed.
I tried adding the HEIGHT back in and that failed too.

Regarding the four images within the content?
I was hoping for a center position with text wrap on the lines I had them
previously.
I did go back in to the CSS book I have and it supported the "" along with
ONLY the left or right placement :-(

Actually I could use the thing as I had it previously.
I just won't view as desired in WEB-TV. ( kinda doubt anybody else, besides
PDA's and other such nonsense is viewing a screen lower that 500 pixels.)
In any event in-its current form and until I find a solution, it would be
both senseless and impossible to begin converting 600 pages.
Thanks again.

Guess the FP pages stay online :-(

[lostinspace]

----- Original Message -----
From: "lostinspace" <>
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Can somebody hold my hand?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Bohlman" <>
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Can somebody hold my hand?

"lostinspace" <> wrote in
:

http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/lvnglgd.html

I'm left with three problems, which I'm hoping somebody may help with?
1) Upon opening the page and narrowing your browser, you'll see that
the text does not STAY wrapped around the floating index?
That's because it isn't actually floating, it's absolutely positioned.
Remember that absolute positioning pulls an element out of the layout flow (i.e. the rest of the page is layed out as if the positioned element
didn't exist at all), and then sticks it in whatever position you
specified, which in this case will be on top of the right-hand side of the first few lines of text. If you want text to flow around an element, use a

float rather than absolute positioning.

I changed your style declaration to:

#menu {
float:right;
WIDTH: 19ex;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #CCFFFF;
}
(you forgot the "#" before the color code, BTW)

and moved the menu div to where the empty "float" div was toward the
beginning of the body.

2) I've inserted four images through the long document. Is it possible
(rather than having the big void of space) to wrap the preceding lines
around the image while still retaining its current position on its
present line?
Yes: the reason it's not working for you is that you failed to put quote
marks around the values of your inline style attributes. They're

getting interpreted as 'style="float"' which is invalid and won't do anything.
Validating your HTML would have caught that right away (just as validating your CSS would have caught the incorrect color codes).

3) I don't believe the "<br>" I'm currently using in the h1 and h2's
is proper?

It's valid HTML (<Hx> allows anything in %inline; as content, and <BR> is an inline element), but it does result in a visually unbalanced look when viewing in a large browser window.

4) The background color in the menu displays as desired (behind the
entire menu) in IE, however in both Netscape 6.2 and Mozilla Firebird
the background color only gets the top half of the menu?

That was because you set the height of your menu div to something less

than

the height of the actual contents, so the contents overflowed it. When
that happens the background color isn't supposed to overflow with them,

but

IE is rather buggy.

Many thanks for your help Eric.
Although the errors you have caught are correct, they only move me back
further in the line of my goal :-(

"and moved the menu div to where the empty "float" div was toward the

beginning of the body."

The entire reason for using the layout as was originally designed (with

the open divide [at least I'm assuming that] was so that the SE's and Lynx will view the page content prior to viewing the menu's. It appears to me that if I swap the old positions (empty div, top of body, and menu div, bottom of
body) than the menu will likely come up first :-(
Not what I desire. Very bad for SE page page return results.

Unfortunately, no matter what I do or what browser I use, am I able to get
the menu background to view properly.

I tried the change you suggested:

#menu {
float:right;
WIDTH: 19ex;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #CCFFFF;
}

without the div change and in 1st page, Netscape and IE and they all failed. I tried adding the HEIGHT back in and that failed too.

Regarding the four images within the content?
I was hoping for a center position with text wrap on the lines I had them
previously.
I did go back in to the CSS book I have and it supported the "" along with
ONLY the left or right placement :-(

Actually I could use the thing as I had it previously.
I just won't view as desired in WEB-TV. ( kinda doubt anybody else, besides PDA's and other such nonsense is viewing a screen lower that 500 pixels.)
In any event in-its current form and until I find a solution, it would be
both senseless and impossible to begin converting 600 pages.
Thanks again.

Guess the FP pages stay online :-(

Eric,
After my initial reply, I began tinkering.
I was able to make the page function as you explained. In that capacity it
did even function as you explained in WEB-TV.

The problem however with the page in that capacity is as I explained that
the menu does go directly below the h1 header and above the remaining page
content.
That page is up at http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/lvnglgdNEW.html
I do like the look of the menu being below the h1 :-)

I may decide to use the initial layout I had. In spite of the header wrap
problem.
To me that little flaw is far out-weighed by the significance of having the
SE's see the
content prior to seeing the sub-links.

I'm such a putz :-(
I spend so much time in acquiring and preparing the content and then
creating titles, descriptions and keywords (I know, I know,) that the amount
of time I'm generally willing to spend tinkering with new design is limited.
I'd much rather being spending that time gathering more content.

Thanks again for your help.

[Eric Bohlman]

"lostinspace" <lo*********@123-universe.com> wrote in
news:EO**********************@newssvr28.news.prodi gy.com:

I may decide to use the initial layout I had. In spite of the header
wrap problem.
To me that little flaw is far out-weighed by the significance of
having the SE's see the
content prior to seeing the sub-links.

I did manage to figure out how to solve that problem (I was able to create
a float that would contain the menu, and then put the menu at the bottom
and absolutely positioned it into the space occupied by the float). I also
fixed some problems involving the pictures at the bottom of the page
(because of varying heights, they didn't line up correctly). You can take
a look at the results in <http://www.omsdev.com/harness/lvnglgd.html>; note
that the hrefs to the pictures will have been renamed, since I captured it
using Opera's "save with images" option. Also note that I haven't fixed
most of the validity problems, and only fixed the first two inline images.

email me when you've picked it up so I can take it down.

[Philipp Lenssen]

lostinspace wrote:

3) I don't believe the "<br>" I'm currently using in the h1 and h2's
is proper?

I sometimes use it to separate main and sub-title, e.g.:

<h1>My First Book<br />
<span class="subTitle">By John Miller</span></h1>

<h2>Preface</h2>

<p>...</p>

<h2>Chapter I: What Got Me Started</h2>

<p>...</p>

Perfectly valid to me, as I don't see how "By John Miller" would better
suit as "<h2>".